:00:23. > :00:31.network. When Martha now -- now, it is time for Dateline London.
:00:31. > :00:41.Welcome to Dateline London. Increasing the money to bail out
:00:41. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:55.the eurozone. Will it work? Saudi Arabian votes for Women. My guests
:00:55. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:05.today are Nabila Ramdani, Geoffrey H 2. Is it too late to bail out
:01:05. > :01:15.countries in the eurozone? Will the German people support the decisions
:01:15. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:20.of their superiors? What would happen if we had the Deutschmark?
:01:20. > :01:30.These are the facts and figures. Currency would immediately
:01:30. > :01:37.depreciate dramatically. This was problem. I do not think that has
:01:37. > :01:43.been sufficiently told. Why should the Germans continued to fund this
:01:43. > :01:49.enterprise? I do not think Germans want to be in the position to pull
:01:49. > :01:59.the plug on anything like this. I think they will continue for a
:01:59. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:05.while. The Germans felt very uncomfortable in their own skins
:02:05. > :02:11.and they do not want to be seen to abandon it. They did what to
:02:11. > :02:21.administer the coup de CRO de grace. They want some collective decision
:02:21. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:32.to do it. You will not see them uniquely do it by themselves. We're
:02:32. > :02:36.just hoping that some have Greece might reform herself in the
:02:36. > :02:44.structural area, collecting more taxation, privatising more
:02:44. > :02:50.businesses abroad. The austerity programme will choke off growth in
:02:50. > :02:55.Greece. Some of the structural reforms might make headway. It is
:02:55. > :02:59.just hoping against hope really. you think Merkel understand how
:02:59. > :03:03.great the crisis is now? She has been dithering from the beginning.
:03:03. > :03:10.Even now she fails to bring across the message to the German people
:03:10. > :03:13.that it is important they keep the euro for their own economies.
:03:13. > :03:20.may explain her Stirchley why it is strange that the popular opinion is
:03:20. > :03:25.usually weighted against this. Every major decision that Germany
:03:25. > :03:32.took up an World War II under the administer -- original
:03:32. > :03:37.administration was taken against the obvious popular opinion. There
:03:37. > :03:44.was always a discrepancy between parliamentarians and popular
:03:44. > :03:49.opinions. We think we are in a representative democracy. It will
:03:49. > :03:57.only be OK for the time Bill -- time being. Bills will have to be
:03:57. > :04:01.paid. It will not be HMA who will pull the plug. We in this country
:04:01. > :04:07.owe a huge debt to the Germans. I think we are extraordinarily
:04:08. > :04:12.arrogant. We wave of fingers at them saying pay more without
:04:12. > :04:22.offering a penny ourselves. Aaron fate is inextricably caught up. I
:04:22. > :04:24.
:04:24. > :04:28.look at the way the Germans behave, had Angela Merkel's bravery. The
:04:28. > :04:32.will to do the right thing and pay out an enormous amount of money to
:04:32. > :04:37.a country they consider profligate. That is political bravery. What we
:04:37. > :04:45.do that in this country? You bet we would not. Even though we need the
:04:45. > :04:49.eurozone to survive this belief. We're hoping that it does and we
:04:49. > :04:57.should praise the Germans instead of constantly weaving a finger and
:04:58. > :05:03.asking for more. There are those who say that Britain should join
:05:03. > :05:13.the eurozone and it -- but this is exposing the fundamental flaws of
:05:13. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:24.the eurozone. It is a constant series of disasters. They give for
:05:24. > :05:34.calling the Germans brave but it is only for an interim period.. --
:05:34. > :05:44.thank you. They do not know how long they will have to sacrifice
:05:44. > :05:51.this for. I think the end game and the fear of the unknown is gripping.
:05:51. > :05:55.But they are propping up economies that are in real peril. If it does
:05:55. > :06:00.will come unstuck, that money will still have been needed. It is not
:06:00. > :06:10.just going down a black hole. might be Sarkozy performs the coup
:06:10. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:21.de Grand Prix. -- coup de grave. think the French and Germans have
:06:21. > :06:24.shown how committed they were to the eurozone. Angela Merkel's
:06:24. > :06:29.majority after narrowly averting the collapse of their government,
:06:29. > :06:32.only after pledging there would be no grand plan committing Germany to
:06:32. > :06:38.fast and unlimited liabilities, this sums up the position of the
:06:38. > :06:45.Germans in general, why should they not as an economic powerhouse have
:06:45. > :06:52.to bail out lesser performing countries over and over. They are
:06:52. > :06:57.becoming as Euro-sceptic as the British. I talked to a German
:06:57. > :07:01.government minister this week to echoed some things he said. She
:07:01. > :07:11.said that after the war, they were given a hand up by the European
:07:11. > :07:14.
:07:14. > :07:22.Union. And that is why you can bet your bottom dollar that Germans
:07:22. > :07:27.understand their own a huge debt of gratitude to Europe. They have
:07:27. > :07:31.benefited from the euro also. be clear about what it is we are
:07:31. > :07:35.losing. The whole European idea is in greater jeopardy. What was wrong
:07:35. > :07:39.with the idea of the eurozone was that it was done too fast too soon
:07:39. > :07:42.with countries that were to incompatible. The idea was
:07:42. > :07:50.brilliant and if it had started with countries that have similar
:07:50. > :07:57.economies and gradually grown as countries got richer, so there was
:07:57. > :08:03.an ever-closer union of people who could realistically partake in this,
:08:03. > :08:08.it has been destroyed and it will never happen again. I think the
:08:08. > :08:13.eurozone is as much about economy as it is about politics. There were
:08:13. > :08:23.some signs of possible reform in Saudi Arabia this week, talk of
:08:23. > :08:26.maybe allow on women to vote. It comes as Bahrain's -- Bahrain jails
:08:26. > :08:34.doctors and nurses for helping those injured in the Arab Spring
:08:34. > :08:37.protests. Can we expect some kind of serious protest? It shows that
:08:37. > :08:43.absolutely Gulf monarchies are not immune to the political turmoil
:08:43. > :08:48.that has been going on in the region. That is why these countries,
:08:48. > :08:55.Saudi Arabia in particular, are realising they are not immune to
:08:55. > :09:00.that turmoil. There are implementing radical reforms. I
:09:00. > :09:06.think this plan to allow women to run for elections would be a grand
:09:06. > :09:13.plan for women in Saudi Arabia. It is also largely token mystic and
:09:13. > :09:19.unconvincing in the extreme. can vote in Saudi Arabia but they
:09:19. > :09:29.do not vote because there's not much to vote for. So it is to could
:09:29. > :09:34.mistake for them to. You can't hold the leaders accountable. But women
:09:34. > :09:41.can't apply to hold roles as Cabinet ministers. They can't drive
:09:41. > :09:48.or travel abroad without permission. In that exposes the contradictions
:09:48. > :09:54.within Saudi Arabia. Women will be allowed to stand for elections but
:09:54. > :09:59.she will have will hava man drive her to Parliament. I saw a very --
:09:59. > :10:04.Twitter that said Saudi women can vote on for it. We have to be
:10:04. > :10:09.realistic about the changes that are being offered here. They can
:10:09. > :10:19.vote and run for elections for local councils that have no power.
:10:19. > :10:21.
:10:21. > :10:25.They should be news it was 1911 not 2011. Even with these advances,
:10:25. > :10:33.they still have to have a male companion to allow them to do these
:10:33. > :10:37.things. It makes the internal contradictions more and more absurd.
:10:37. > :10:42.Everything they give away, they feel the pressure and afraid of
:10:42. > :10:45.what they are seen. That makes things even worse. It does not
:10:45. > :10:49.improve the situation. I think it is high time that we and all these
:10:49. > :10:56.other countries say that we will not have any more dealings with
:10:56. > :10:59.these regimes. We are up to our necks in blood in Bahrain and Saudi
:10:59. > :11:06.Arabia and we should apologise, step back, support the opposition
:11:06. > :11:14.and have no more commitment to it. Bahrain is absolutely extraordinary.
:11:14. > :11:17.It is very different from -- anybody in Western Europe or
:11:17. > :11:23.America we think it is quite despicable to jail doctors and
:11:23. > :11:33.nurses for helping people injured in the Arab Spring. Women and
:11:33. > :11:33.
:11:33. > :11:38.children have been imprisoned or so and tortured. It shows there is no
:11:38. > :11:44.appetite to threaten that part of the world. That is the dilemma
:11:44. > :11:49.isn't it for Western governments. They may talk about democracy but
:11:49. > :11:53.they want peace and quiet in the Arab region, particularly those
:11:53. > :11:57.countries that produce oil. President Obama did not mention
:11:57. > :12:05.Saudi Arabia once in his Middle East speech. There is no chance
:12:05. > :12:11.that Saudi Arabia will be a force to reform much more deeper in Saudi
:12:11. > :12:14.society by countries surrounding it. There is no chance that it will be
:12:15. > :12:21.pressured into reforming the country by Western countries who
:12:21. > :12:26.are in bed with Saudi Arabia. The change is bound to come from within.
:12:26. > :12:31.And what is happening with women getting more political, it is a
:12:31. > :12:37.sign the change will come domestically. I think the Saudi
:12:37. > :12:45.king is coming to the realisation that he is not immune. What he has
:12:46. > :12:49.his pots of money. He is trying to deploy that. He could offer
:12:49. > :12:58.personally some incredible package to train delay economic anger. That
:12:58. > :13:08.is something there is going for him. A rescue fund? And this will keep
:13:08. > :13:10.
:13:10. > :13:14.the Arab Spring from lapping on the shores. Do you have any optimism,
:13:14. > :13:24.we have seen what happens on the ground and heard about the distaste
:13:24. > :13:25.
:13:25. > :13:31.in the Arab world, do you think the West has much leverage that it is
:13:31. > :13:37.prepared to use in barring? Bahrain certainly. Whether it is
:13:37. > :13:43.prepared to use it is another question. I suspect not. I can't
:13:43. > :13:48.see the US pulling out of Bahrain in a hurry. Crossing Bahrain means
:13:48. > :13:54.crossing Saudi Arabia. My Touch- tone on this is always the
:13:54. > :14:02.Simpson's where they had an episode in which Barth said it is as
:14:02. > :14:06.American as a 51st state Saudi is really are. We have to believe that
:14:06. > :14:10.in our lifetimes, democracy has read -- spread across the globe and
:14:11. > :14:15.will continue to do so. It is quite remarkable that if you look at a
:14:15. > :14:25.map of the world when we were born in how it is now, democracy happens
:14:25. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:37.Each country has its own rhythm to follow, so we should not be too
:14:37. > :14:41.dogmatic about time lines. Although I agree that a map of the world
:14:41. > :14:50.would look different about where democracy is a recurring, whether
:14:50. > :14:54.they are pursuing a liberal democracy in the same way as ours...
:14:54. > :14:57.Look at the American constitution and the appalling state it is in.
:14:58. > :15:03.Look at the non-democratic behaviour in this country. It is
:15:03. > :15:08.never perfect. Democracy is always a work in progress. There are those
:15:08. > :15:12.who have suggested that things could actually go backwards and
:15:12. > :15:17.things could become more ere
:15:17. > :15:21.is a compact between the religious leaders and political leaders and
:15:21. > :15:25.that no matter what the king does, the succession question, which many
:15:25. > :15:31.people in Saudi Arabia find impossible to discuss, means that
:15:31. > :15:38.you could have a more conservative state in five years' time. That is
:15:38. > :15:44.one of the concerns. But I think that the fact that the ruling
:15:44. > :15:49.family in Saudi Arabia is launching these radical reforms is a show of
:15:49. > :15:56.weakness. It says a lot about the need for change in order not to go
:15:56. > :16:02.back, effectively. It is so bizarre that there is Saudi Arabia, the
:16:02. > :16:07.fight a's nest of Wahhabism that is causing the terrorism and trouble
:16:07. > :16:13.across the world and it is in this absolutely unbreakable bond with
:16:13. > :16:18.the country these people are destroying. Our energy dependence
:16:18. > :16:26.on Saudi Arabia is the linchpin of all of this. That is why we need a
:16:26. > :16:31.new deal so then Europe can head that way and become independent.
:16:31. > :16:38.Developing new energy technology is the way to go. In the meantime, we
:16:38. > :16:43.to go. British politics took a turn this
:16:43. > :16:47.week as Ed Miliband had to stake out your ground in his speech. As
:16:47. > :16:52.th thtives had to their annual conference, David Cameron is
:16:52. > :16:56.trying to avoid a row in Europe and other causes close to his party's
:16:56. > :17:02.right wing and whether he is doing enough to stimulate the economy.
:17:02. > :17:11.But looking back at this week, did Ed Miliband revenge -- emerged as a
:17:11. > :17:16.credible Prime Minister in waiting? I am still up in the air. Here, at
:17:16. > :17:23.least, was a speech of substance. We have been used to so many VAT
:17:23. > :17:28.and television Oriented performances. -- that it. It was
:17:28. > :17:32.too long, he is not great on television. Most peoplMost peopl
:17:32. > :17:37.have seen its entire content. They will have just seen a few clicks on
:17:37. > :17:41.the use and they will they will on that. But those who will have seen
:17:41. > :17:45.it will have realised that he is e
:17:45. > :17:52.we have had this great crash, no- one has asked what this means for
:17:52. > :17:56.how we go forward. Will we allow hereditary companies and banks and
:17:56. > :18:01.financiers tnanciers tntries and democracies? Or are we going to try
:18:01. > :18:06.to break that and say that we can have a better form of capitalism?
:18:06. > :18:15.It is not anti-capitalist but an idea of benevolent capitalism.
:18:15. > :18:20.Haven't we seen that debate already? It is not such a novel
:18:20. > :18:26.idea to me but as the language that he has used, calling these
:18:26. > :18:31.institutions predators and so on. Other companies as well, not just
:18:31. > :18:36.banks. Private-equity as well. the discussion that we cannot go on
:18:36. > :18:42.as we used to instead of business as usual, the phrases that he used,
:18:42. > :18:47.I have a feeling we have heard that before since 2008. Five don't
:18:47. > :18:51.remember that phrase in particular but you are right. Having a stand
:18:51. > :18:54.out against banks is nothing new. Politicians around the world are
:18:55. > :18:59.doing that but whether they are actually in that the policies that
:18:59. > :19:03.would force behind their words is another story. Ed Miliband is
:19:03. > :19:07.always a to be held back by performance. Because we live in a
:19:07. > :19:12.time where in Britain you will have debates in television, this is
:19:12. > :19:15.going to be a hindrance for him. Unless he can improve his
:19:15. > :19:21.performance in a way that can appeal to the electorate on a basic
:19:21. > :19:25.level, it is going to be difficult for him. He is good in debates and
:19:25. > :19:32.speeches are very old-fashioned nonsense. In hand-to-hand combat,
:19:32. > :19:37.so to speak, he will be very good. I think he should abolish speeches.
:19:37. > :19:41.If I was a leader, I would always abolish a speech. It is agony to
:19:41. > :19:50.write, weeks of time wasted, much better to just get out there and
:19:50. > :19:55.answer questions. Being yourself - a bit dangerous! What do you think?
:19:55. > :20:00.I think that party conferences are always well scripted and that it is
:20:00. > :20:05.what we will see at the Conservative Party Conference as
:20:05. > :20:08.well. I still do not know what the Conservatives are all about - who
:20:08. > :20:15.they are and what they represent - and there will be a chance for them
:20:15. > :20:18.to explain that. If they want to betray themselves as a more
:20:18. > :20:26.traditional party or if they will portray themselves as having a
:20:26. > :20:28.modernist agenda, the agenda that got them elected in the first place.
:20:28. > :20:33.Returning to that point about performances, it is about what
:20:33. > :20:38.people think of as character. Even if you do not meet Ed Miliband,
:20:38. > :20:43.Nick Clegg or David Cameron, when you see these people on television,
:20:43. > :20:50.David Cameron is light as a person and that is important. But how much
:20:50. > :20:54.longer it will go on being important for... We started off
:20:54. > :20:58.with people saying that the deficit was the most important thing.
:20:58. > :21:02.People supported that. But now the budget cuts are starting to hit and
:21:02. > :21:05.people are thinking that it is going too far and too fast. They
:21:05. > :21:09.are seeing their jobs go and they are seeing the effects of the
:21:09. > :21:14.budget cuts and next year it is going to be worse. Apart from the
:21:14. > :21:19.top ten %, most households will come in at least 7% of their income.
:21:19. > :21:23.That is enormous, not seen since the 1920s. In the end, bread and
:21:24. > :21:29.butter that is so much more than the charge of the leader. -- charm
:21:29. > :21:33.of the leader. His is difficult as an opposition leader to provide
:21:33. > :21:41.yourself as a future contender for the highest office if you have four
:21:41. > :21:46.more years until the next election. Labour is still ahead on the pulse,
:21:46. > :21:51.surprisingly. Perhaps leadership is not everything. The gimmicky
:21:51. > :21:55.concepts like the Big Society will not cut it. Effectively, what that
:21:55. > :22:00.is about his doing it yourself, asking charities to take over the
:22:00. > :22:06.role of the state when charity funding is being cut as well. And
:22:06. > :22:10.also, I always like to remind people of this quote: Charity is no
:22:10. > :22:14.substitute for social justice. And that is what people want. It looks
:22:14. > :22:18.like we will have a change of policy in putting some money into
:22:18. > :22:22.helping people get their rubbish bins collected once per week. It
:22:22. > :22:26.sounds trivial but I cannot tell you how irritated some people get
:22:26. > :22:29.about things like that and that sort of thing works in politics.
:22:29. > :22:34.And when money suddenly becomes available for these things, it
:22:34. > :22:37.suddenly becomes available. They can play it cleverly that way but
:22:37. > :22:42.in terms of actually trying to change the direction in which they
:22:42. > :22:46.are going, so many opinions are coming up - from the IMF of all
:22:46. > :22:52.sources - saying that you have got to concentrate on job-creation and
:22:52. > :22:57.economic growth and that austerity cuts are not enough. And from the
:22:57. > :23:02.Conservative Party as well. that is not just in Britain but all
:23:02. > :23:06.across Europe. We are seeing that with discussion over Greece's debt.
:23:07. > :23:12.Austerity cannot solve everything, it has got to be about growth.
:23:12. > :23:16.Britain has voluntarily chosen the most austere measures of all
:23:16. > :23:20.countries. We have volunteer to have the most austere measures, the
:23:20. > :23:26.toughest budget cuts - 22,000 people thrown out of the Armed
:23:26. > :23:30.Forces, that kind of thing, 20% cut in the police force at a time when
:23:30. > :23:33.crime is likely to be rising - these are ferocious and it is only
:23:33. > :23:38.beginning to happen. I do not believe that this does not impact
:23:38. > :23:42.on the government of the day and I am not surprised that they are
:23:42. > :23:49.behind in the opinion polls. That is no reason why bin collection if
:23:49. > :23:55.it increases is going to refloat the economy. (LAUGHS). Britain is
:23:55. > :24:00.in a rather unique position. It can spend on capital, could go for
:24:00. > :24:04.large projects, something has got to refloat the economy. It costs
:24:04. > :24:11.less to borrow and we could lend again at a profit! The argument is
:24:11. > :24:14.that it only cost us less tomorrow because we are being so Ostia.
:24:14. > :24:19.then we have the industrialists, who are very right wing, telling us
:24:19. > :24:24.to build houses, infrastructure, railways, energy, power stations
:24:24. > :24:29.and so on and get the economy going. Even they are saying this. The
:24:29. > :24:33.deficit is beginning to fade as being the main focus. If people are
:24:33. > :24:40.talking about opening the floodgates. Why? People are talking
:24:40. > :24:44.about stalling. And don't call it stimulus, because that is a
:24:44. > :24:48.discredited word. Call it investment for the sake of the
:24:48. > :24:52.economy. To return to where we began, is they going to be an
:24:52. > :24:56.argument on Europe at the party conference this week? Some in the
:24:57. > :25:02.Tory party are saying that now is the time to reshape UK's role in
:25:02. > :25:06.the EU. It is an outrageous idea but Europe is very unpopular in
:25:06. > :25:16.this country. Any Rover -- any referendum with the word Europe in
:25:16. > :25:21.it would all to let leak yield the answer No. -- all to let me. But To
:25:21. > :25:26.try to work advantage for ourselves when Germany is shouldering such a
:25:26. > :25:29.huge share of the burden is outrageous. I hope that we have
:25:29. > :25:38.politicians being slightly Matt Ballin us and say that this is no
:25:38. > :25:43.time to see some advantage around the side -- Magna mess. They could
:25:43. > :25:46.possibly think wider and hold back a little bit. One thing that would
:25:46. > :25:50.be popular is the idea that the banks could contribute a little of