:00:07. > :00:17.I it will be back at 1pm. Now, Dateline London live with Gavin
:00:17. > :00:26.
:00:26. > :00:31.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Britain's defence secretary
:00:31. > :00:34.resigns - did Liam Fox have to go? Plus the unfinished business of the
:00:34. > :00:37.Arab Spring with killings of Coptic Christians in Egypt, massacres in
:00:37. > :00:43.Syria, and the fighting continuing in Libya. Plus, can the government
:00:43. > :00:46.make us less fat? My guests today are: Abdel Bari Atwan of Al Quds al
:00:46. > :00:49.Arabi. Agnes Poirier who is UK editor of Marianne. Yasmin Alibhai
:00:49. > :00:55.Brown of the Independent and Vincent Magombe of Africa Inform
:00:55. > :00:58.International. Britain's Defence Secretary Liam Fox resigned over
:00:58. > :01:02.his friendship with a man who posed as his adviser and who had links
:01:02. > :01:04.with lobbyists and defence contractors. At a time of conflict
:01:04. > :01:14.involving British servicemen and women in Afghanistan and Iraq plus
:01:14. > :01:16.
:01:16. > :01:22.big defence cuts, has this damaged David Cameron's government? I think
:01:22. > :01:26.you have to start wondering how governments in the past have fallen.
:01:26. > :01:30.Nobody is saying it might for tomorrow but there was the
:01:30. > :01:36.deconstruction of the government by one minister going and another.
:01:36. > :01:41.This is coming very early in their lifetime. If they are not very
:01:41. > :01:51.careful, remember they are walking on a tight string of this unity
:01:51. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:59.government. But, having said that, for me, what this brings his -- I
:01:59. > :02:04.have seen not just the area where people are feeling big tried to do
:02:04. > :02:07.what they can do but how this government is acting on immigration
:02:07. > :02:13.and have a Home Office minister comes up and says outrageous things
:02:13. > :02:18.that make people should have. do you mean? When she said we will
:02:18. > :02:22.stop things like people coming to work and this and that. I know
:02:22. > :02:28.Britain has to stop people coming in but the tone of the
:02:28. > :02:36.Conservatives used in this debate really shows me an extreme in their
:02:36. > :02:40.beliefs. Even if this is personal matters and so on, it shows this I
:02:40. > :02:47.don't care business, I will do what I can. They do not think about
:02:47. > :02:52.people's feelings. Has it damage the government or not? I certainly
:02:53. > :03:02.think letting him hold on for so long, the funny speech he made last
:03:03. > :03:03.
:03:03. > :03:10.week which did not make any sense at all. It was garbage, really. But,
:03:10. > :03:15.well I think -- what I think this shows is the weakness of Camerons
:03:15. > :03:20.position. He dared not take a hard line. Fox is on the right of the
:03:20. > :03:24.party, Fox is more than the Thatcherite wing and the think they
:03:24. > :03:30.hate is what Cameron is doing to the party, the coalition and so on.
:03:30. > :03:38.They have to be kept happy. David Cameron would say it you cannot get
:03:38. > :03:44.rid of people, it took a few days because of a report by a respected
:03:44. > :03:49.civil servant and made you will find out what happened. I think he
:03:49. > :03:54.likes to be known as Action man, this time he wasn't. Partly it is
:03:54. > :03:59.because he is quite scared of this side of his party. If they turn on
:03:59. > :04:04.him, which they could at any time, then he is stuffed. He has to keep
:04:04. > :04:10.them happy. There are so many interesting things, it is the first
:04:10. > :04:14.time Cameron has had to face such an ordeal. We know John Major in
:04:15. > :04:20.the past was relieved that at dealing with political scandal. He
:04:20. > :04:24.Lettin drag on and at about to the inevitable. We remember the
:04:24. > :04:34.Alastair Campbell 10 days rule, if you are on the front page that 10
:04:34. > :04:34.
:04:34. > :04:43.days, you are out. And he was on for about eight days. And also in a
:04:43. > :04:50.coalition it is more difficult to reshuffle. Cameron... He wasn't so
:04:50. > :04:56.bad. It could have been worse. I will not cry over Dr Fox's
:04:56. > :05:03.departure. It is a good thing for Europe because he was one of the
:05:03. > :05:10.really staunch Euro phobics in Cabinet. I am sure he would be
:05:11. > :05:19.flattered. I believed he jumped before he was pushed. I wish it was
:05:19. > :05:26.the opposite. I wish Cameron proved his steel and said just go away. To
:05:26. > :05:32.prove his credibility and I was shocked, we waited more than 10
:05:32. > :05:40.years for the first sleaze cases of the previous Conservative
:05:40. > :05:47.government, now after a year the first case and big fish to be
:05:47. > :05:53.caught resigned. Thirdly, the timing of this actually sees case
:05:53. > :05:58.which is... He is the defence minister. Britain is involved in
:05:58. > :06:03.Libya, involved in Afghanistan, involved in Iraq in one way or
:06:03. > :06:06.another. This is a heavy blow to government. Let's move on. The
:06:06. > :06:10.scenes of Coptic Christians on the streets of Cairo being viciously
:06:10. > :06:13.attacked suggest that Egypt's Arab Spring may have a long way to go.
:06:13. > :06:16.It comes as the fighting in Libya continues and there are reports of
:06:16. > :06:26.thousands killed in Syria. Should we continue to be hopeful about
:06:26. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:33.moves towards democracy? Syria, we have known for some time it is a
:06:33. > :06:38.bloodbath that particularly nasty. Very nasty, 3,000 people massacred
:06:38. > :06:41.and the figure is increasing day after day. The Arab League is
:06:41. > :06:49.supposed to have emergency meetings to try to do something but I do not
:06:49. > :06:53.believe they will do anything. The situation in Syria is very alarming.
:06:53. > :06:58.We have protesters for the last seven months he could not oppose
:06:58. > :07:03.the government and we have a government which is brutal and they
:07:03. > :07:11.cannot stop the protests. It is a vicious circle. How long will it
:07:11. > :07:17.take, I don't know. It could be more nasty if there is from forces
:07:17. > :07:23.or neighbours deciding to on the rebels. If they do on them and
:07:23. > :07:30.there is a process of arming those rebels... Is there? Yes. If it
:07:30. > :07:38.happens, it could be a bloody civil war and again the American drive to
:07:38. > :07:43.launch a war against Iran as we heard, that story around were about
:07:44. > :07:49.to the Sussex ambassador and blow up the embassies, so I believe we
:07:49. > :07:59.are heading towards a very unstable area. It could be another war to
:07:59. > :08:01.
:08:01. > :08:05.kill the Arabs bring completely. Isn't the Arabs bring, if it is
:08:05. > :08:09.killed, it will be killed by the repression of Coptic Christians who
:08:09. > :08:13.want to demonstrate, it will be killed by the fact the war is
:08:13. > :08:18.continuing in Libya, it is not the outside is doing this, this is
:08:18. > :08:23.Arabs doing it themselves. Also there are outsiders who do not want
:08:23. > :08:29.the Arabs bring to succeed. They want to derail it. There is a
:08:29. > :08:32.counter revolution, they're working for speed especially in Egypt
:08:32. > :08:38.because the Egyptian spring changed the equation in the Middle East.
:08:38. > :08:45.They do not want a revolution to succeed in Egypt. It was alarming
:08:46. > :08:50.to see Coptic Christians killed, 26 massacred by the army. It is an
:08:50. > :08:58.affront to the revolution and people. Everybody is saddened. I
:08:58. > :09:03.know Coptic people are suppressed a deprived of rights, they cannot go
:09:03. > :09:06.into the army or security forces or be represented in the government.
:09:06. > :09:13.They are entitled to protest and the government should listen to
:09:13. > :09:17.them, they have rights. question is important but the
:09:17. > :09:23.difficulty is in all of these volatile places, and further away
:09:23. > :09:29.from the Arab lands, the internal destruction the goes on by the
:09:29. > :09:38.dictators, the army, the fundamentalists, they are
:09:38. > :09:44.hyperactive. It is a very cleverly balanced and aided by these outside
:09:44. > :09:49.forces. Going back to Fox, it is not his alleged sex life or which
:09:50. > :09:56.hotel he stayed in or who he met, the three organisations that are
:09:56. > :10:01.now mentioned in connection with his very good friend, the Atlantic
:10:01. > :10:09.bridge which was only dismantled in September which is a neo-cons
:10:10. > :10:16.organisation with an international agenda, two other organisations, a
:10:16. > :10:19.Zionist, prose finest communications lobby group, and
:10:19. > :10:26.this other company behind it seems arms trading to keep the Middle
:10:26. > :10:31.East where it was. Both are working together. There are two things
:10:31. > :10:37.happening, as estate in Egypt definitely the Egyptian revolution
:10:37. > :10:45.is in danger, from the very beginning when the Americans
:10:45. > :10:51.manoeuvred to make sure the military were the ones handed
:10:51. > :10:56.power,. They say there is no alternative because there was no
:10:56. > :11:06.more power sources. My belief is leave the people to do what they
:11:06. > :11:18.
:11:18. > :11:25.need to do. That said, I do not want to here... You remain an
:11:25. > :11:33.optimist. What I'm saying is in spite of what ever has happened,
:11:33. > :11:38.the biggest thing that has come out of the Arab spring, there has been
:11:38. > :11:44.a weakening of the masses, the popular instinct to take part in
:11:44. > :11:50.their own struggles. Enough to wakening, I agree you should not
:11:50. > :11:54.stop it, in the wake me certain groups emerge and they are emerging,
:11:54. > :12:01.the anti-Christian behaviours in all of the Arab countries now is
:12:01. > :12:07.appalling. In Iran, too. Christians. In Pakistan as well. In the mob
:12:07. > :12:14.there lies danger. In Syria, it is quite clear that we will not
:12:14. > :12:20.intervene. All we can do is convince once again the Chinese and
:12:20. > :12:30.the Russians not to veto the UN resolution of that will say and put
:12:30. > :12:34.
:12:34. > :12:44.forward sanctions towards Syria. What activists... Let's not be
:12:44. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:56.cynical. Is doing a Libya being a successful thing? Why are we
:12:56. > :13:02.thinking when he tried to overthrow a person like... Gaddafi I do not
:13:02. > :13:09.agree with foreign intervention and bombing. I would have liked Libyans
:13:09. > :13:16.to do it themselves. White and expects that once you try to take
:13:16. > :13:21.over a person like Gaddafi or ad and in, you would have it so smooth.
:13:21. > :13:27.The most important thing is the types of leaders like Gaddafi and
:13:27. > :13:35.African dictators, from now on will have to be on notice people will
:13:35. > :13:45.rise up against you if you continue. It is that the Communist in the
:13:45. > :13:47.
:13:47. > :13:52.On Syria, we are in the situation when the activists must... There
:13:52. > :13:57.are two things, firstly for the army to swap sides. They are not
:13:57. > :14:04.going to get help from the outside, so they must do it from the inside.
:14:04. > :14:09.The army must join at the people. That is a civil war. You have not
:14:09. > :14:13.mentioned the people that resisted sanctions, South Africans. South
:14:13. > :14:18.Africa did not go with the sanctions. If that is not
:14:18. > :14:25.depressing news, what is? When it comes to Syria, the army is
:14:25. > :14:28.completely different. In Egypt, Tunisia, even Yemen, the army is in
:14:28. > :14:34.some way independent from the Government and they play a very
:14:34. > :14:39.decisive role. The army in Tunisia said to Ben Ali, you have to go. He
:14:39. > :14:46.went. When they intervened in Egypt and told Hosni Mubarak it was the
:14:46. > :14:50.end of the game, he left. But when it comes to Syria, Bashar al-Assad
:14:50. > :14:55.is in full control of the army. The army is part of the regime, an
:14:55. > :15:01.integral part. It was a military coup which took over in Syria. We
:15:01. > :15:11.cannot say it that the army in Syria will actually defect. They
:15:11. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:16.are starting to defect. Oh it is very limited. 300,000 is a fraction.
:15:16. > :15:20.The problem in Syria is that the internal situation is complicated
:15:20. > :15:24.and there could be a sectarian civil war. If we ignite as
:15:24. > :15:28.sectarian civil war, and there will be, because you cannot continue
:15:28. > :15:34.killing and shooting your own people, as we see every day,
:15:34. > :15:39.sometimes 50 people. The dilemma is that some of the Syrian protesters
:15:39. > :15:43.would like foreign intervention. The outside powers say they will
:15:43. > :15:47.not intervene. That takes us back to the start of the conversation.
:15:47. > :15:51.What can Arab people and countries do? The Arab League is meeting
:15:51. > :15:55.tomorrow and you do not expect much from it. I know that within the
:15:55. > :15:58.Arab League people are desperately worried about Iran. Whatever you
:15:58. > :16:04.make of the bomb plots and the United States, they are worried
:16:04. > :16:09.about Iranian intervention in Syria. Yes, and the Iranians have said it
:16:09. > :16:13.clearly. If there is going to be any foreign intervention in Syria,
:16:13. > :16:21.we will intervene. They will not let that regime collapsed. That is
:16:21. > :16:31.the paradox here. The Arab League has been the most useless bunch
:16:31. > :16:31.
:16:32. > :16:36.of... Ever! I think the problems of the Arab League must not take us
:16:36. > :16:43.away from the empowerment of the people, the courage of the people
:16:43. > :16:48.in the Arab world. And in Africa. This is not going to be stopped. It
:16:48. > :16:55.is a fire starting to burn. There will be a lot of chaos and so on,
:16:55. > :17:00.but give it a decade, perhaps, and any Arab, even Saudi Arabia, they
:17:00. > :17:04.will fear. They will have to do reform or face the people. I know
:17:04. > :17:07.we are talking about the Arab world, but you have mentioned Uganda and
:17:08. > :17:15.the demonstrations happening there and people have looked North and
:17:15. > :17:25.see what has happened in Arab countries and been inspired. Other
:17:25. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:32.people not frightened? They are very frightened. They thought the
:17:32. > :17:38.Government wanted to poison them. But the people of very determined.
:17:39. > :17:43.Last time they demonstrated, there was tear gas. Some of them died.
:17:43. > :17:48.Women were shot in the stomach and so on. They are not fearing that. I
:17:49. > :17:56.think again they are being inspired. The Arab world did it against
:17:56. > :18:04.mighty armies. If the leader killed hundreds of thousands of people,
:18:04. > :18:06.then the world will turn against him. Why do you think that the
:18:06. > :18:10.Syrian people continued to demonstrate, knowing what has
:18:10. > :18:14.happened to the people beside them in demonstrations? It is
:18:14. > :18:19.extraordinarily brave. They are brave and courageous. There have
:18:19. > :18:27.been humiliated for the last 42 years, 50 years. They were treated
:18:27. > :18:34.very badly. The regime was so suppressive. Any kind of freedom,
:18:34. > :18:37.freedom of exhibition, work, travel, so that is the problem. There is
:18:37. > :18:43.nothing to fear because they have lost everything. They have lost
:18:43. > :18:49.their fear of fear, and when people lose their fear of fear of... I was
:18:49. > :18:54.in Egypt doing research in Cairo at the end of Ramadan. Walking among
:18:54. > :18:59.young people, the army was there, really quite menacing in the middle
:18:59. > :19:03.of the square and so on. There was such bravery. They said that if
:19:03. > :19:08.they turned on them, they were not afraid. They were only 20 or
:19:08. > :19:14.something. The quite extraordinary. We are talking about Iran, but one
:19:14. > :19:24.name is missing here, Turkey. Turkey should step forward. I am
:19:24. > :19:24.
:19:24. > :19:31.not so keen on them that, by all accounts, but they have some
:19:31. > :19:40.admission in the region. Turkey has been given this soft and wonderful
:19:40. > :19:43.image because it is part of Europe. It is not part of Europe. The cuts
:19:43. > :19:53.that are being made a not acceptable. He is pushing for
:19:53. > :19:53.
:19:53. > :19:59.sanctions. Why should Turkey fight war on behalf of Europe which has
:19:59. > :20:03.closed its doors? We are not talking about the war. Turkey was
:20:03. > :20:07.used as a member of NATO but it has never been rewarded for its good
:20:07. > :20:10.service to the West during the Cold War. When not at the door of the
:20:10. > :20:16.European Union, they said no thank you, you are Muslim, we do not want
:20:16. > :20:21.you. Thank God they did, because their economy is now stronger than
:20:21. > :20:23.the European economy. Now we will move on to something that we are
:20:23. > :20:27.supposed to do something about instead of Government. The British
:20:27. > :20:31.Government is worried about obesity but has decided to leave it to
:20:31. > :20:38.individuals to tackle their weight problems, while hoping food
:20:38. > :20:41.companies will behave responsibly. Will that work? They do not care
:20:41. > :20:46.about obesity because rich people are generally thin and they only
:20:46. > :20:52.care about the rich. They are only interested in feeding profits to
:20:52. > :20:56.the food industry. It is laughable. This non- policy is laughable.
:20:56. > :21:00.would accept that what you put into your own mouth is a matter for
:21:00. > :21:08.yourself. That is why the nation needs to take it seriously and have
:21:08. > :21:16.a proper policy. This is a non- policy. They are too paranoid about
:21:16. > :21:26.this. British, American, German women, trying to slim down. In
:21:26. > :21:26.
:21:26. > :21:32.Africa it is wonderful to see these nicely shaped women. Government
:21:32. > :21:38.should keep very far away from some of these things, that is what I
:21:38. > :21:42.think. No. One of the problems facing teenage girls growing up
:21:42. > :21:49.with the idea that getting a bit of flab is so bad. It destroys your
:21:49. > :21:53.health and all of that. People should enjoy it. Vincent, there are
:21:53. > :22:00.children in classrooms that cannot run for two minutes. There is an
:22:00. > :22:06.obesity problem. You cannot leave that. There was a book a few years
:22:06. > :22:15.ago which looked at why Frenchwomen do not get fat. You do not it.
:22:15. > :22:21.is a question of culture. Education is key. But if you are five and you
:22:21. > :22:28.do not know what to carriage looks like, that is a problem. I would
:22:28. > :22:33.take an authoritarian stance and I would ban all McDonald's. As you
:22:33. > :22:42.know, it is popular for a reason. People like it. If you eat it in
:22:42. > :22:48.moderation, it is not bad for you. Just like for Agram. -- just like
:22:48. > :22:53.French pate. Come and look at the food on sale, pre-packaged and very
:22:53. > :23:03.cheap. For people on low incomes, the choice between making their own
:23:03. > :23:04.
:23:04. > :23:10.food and buying for �1, four frozen pizzas, you can see why they do it.
:23:10. > :23:16.I have written a lot of books about cookery! There are two solutions.
:23:16. > :23:20.You can make it compulsory, if you do not lose weight, you will be in
:23:20. > :23:25.prison. Saddam Hussein literally did that. The prisons would be very
:23:25. > :23:29.full! So people lost weight because they were scared. The second
:23:29. > :23:39.solution is cultural. The Mediterranean diet is the best.
:23:39. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:45.Fruit, vegetables, red wine. that is their culture. They are all
:23:45. > :23:49.expensive. Things like olive oil. They should not be. Europe has to
:23:49. > :23:59.make decisions. Instead of importing food from Africa and the
:23:59. > :24:00.
:24:00. > :24:04.Mediterranean, it is expensive, but stop eating all this rubbish.
:24:04. > :24:14.nation, we tax alcohol and cigarettes for various reasons. We
:24:14. > :24:14.
:24:14. > :24:20.do not ban it but we say you have to do it responsibly. Why not food?
:24:20. > :24:28.Culture should be encouraged to provide more fresh food.
:24:28. > :24:36.peasant diet. Look at the full English breakfast. It is butter,
:24:36. > :24:41.bread, butter, beans, butter, sausage, butter. If these things
:24:41. > :24:46.were properly taxed, they would reflect not how much we should not
:24:46. > :24:51.eat it, but it might make parents think whether they should feed it
:24:51. > :24:56.to their children. Not having it is just capitulating to the food
:24:56. > :25:00.industry. How much are people taxed already? Already there is too much
:25:01. > :25:05.taxation. Our National Health Service and the doctors are now
:25:05. > :25:10.warning that we have an epidemic connected to the obesity issue. We
:25:10. > :25:18.cannot let that happen. It is not just the rich people that eat at
:25:18. > :25:22.McDonald's. If you tax McDonald's, you are taxing the poor people.
:25:22. > :25:26.have to leave it there. Unfortunately we do not have time