:00:25. > :00:29.capital. Welcome to Dateline London. The
:00:29. > :00:32.death of a dictator. What it means there are other despots. Could a
:00:32. > :00:38.former leader of the IRA make a good President and can the eurozone
:00:38. > :00:44.leaders get it right this time? At my guests are Bernard Purcell,
:00:44. > :00:48.Abdul Bari Atwan, Jeff McAllister and Mark Roche. Good to see you.
:00:49. > :00:52.The death of Muammar Gaddafi brings to an end 42 years of repression,
:00:52. > :00:57.the sponsorship of terror sick and bizarre narcissism. But what hopes
:00:57. > :01:01.are there for the future? And what lessons fathered dictators and
:01:01. > :01:09.Western powers who hope to influence events in the Arab
:01:09. > :01:17.Spring? Abdul Bari Atwan, you met him. Would you -- why do you think
:01:17. > :01:25.you would rather have had him stand trial? We are looking at a
:01:25. > :01:31.different Libya. We should not see Gaddafi the way he used to treat
:01:31. > :01:35.his opponents. His death was bloody. It was very ugly. People were
:01:35. > :01:42.shocked in the Middle East. They did not expect a man like him to be
:01:42. > :01:47.humiliated the way he was. Executed the way he was. We saw him walking.
:01:47. > :01:51.He was breaking his captors not to kill him, to treat him nicely. But
:01:51. > :01:58.in the end we saw him killed. Personally, I saw videos. People
:01:58. > :02:04.are actually hitting and kicking him. It is immoral to do so. We
:02:04. > :02:09.want to set up to me practising -- who want to set up a democracy. The
:02:09. > :02:17.law is supposed to prevail. Would a trial have helped bring Libya to
:02:17. > :02:24.get there? The trial will cool things down. Libya is a tribal
:02:24. > :02:30.society. His tribe and other tribes loyal to him will feel offended.
:02:30. > :02:36.This could be a recipe for a civil war later. He cannot see the leader
:02:36. > :02:43.humiliated the way he was. A trial would give time to rebuild the
:02:43. > :02:47.country, peace, stability. His sons also, to be humiliated and killed,
:02:48. > :02:51.executed in cold blood, this is not a good start for the new Libya.
:02:51. > :03:00.Bearing that in mind, how optimistic should be the about the
:03:00. > :03:06.future? Libyans do want a new beginning. Donaghy served his
:03:06. > :03:10.usefulness to the West to a large extent. -- Colonel Gaddafi. He was
:03:10. > :03:19.a use for Boogie man for President Reagan and lots of people got rich
:03:19. > :03:27.through various behind the scenes issues. Fire -- a lot of people
:03:27. > :03:30.will find his death convenient. There are a lot of paper trails.
:03:31. > :03:38.One leader said he would like Al -- he would like a lot of questions
:03:38. > :03:42.answered. He was responsible for supplying weapons to the IRA in the
:03:42. > :03:45.1980s. That was pretty much as old as part of the reconciliation
:03:45. > :03:49.process in the 1990s running up to the peace process. But it is
:03:49. > :03:54.brittle and nasty but it is immensely convenient for the
:03:54. > :03:58.powers-that-be. In leaves a vacuum. We cannot say convenient. This is
:03:58. > :04:07.execution. This is outside the rule of law. I am not suggesting it
:04:07. > :04:17.should be done. It was a deliberate execution. That is what we should
:04:17. > :04:19.
:04:19. > :04:27.admit. He brutalise people. It is against values. He was a prisoner.
:04:27. > :04:31.He should be treated as a prisoner. You could make an argument with
:04:31. > :04:36.Saddam Hussein, there was a trial. Was that good for reconciliation in
:04:36. > :04:40.Iraq? Maybe they are such boogeyman that getting rid of them in a
:04:40. > :04:44.hurry... Osama Bin Laden we might also say, better to have him dead
:04:44. > :04:48.in a political sense than to have him around to it make trouble and
:04:48. > :04:53.become a living martyr. I would also have liked to have seen a
:04:53. > :05:02.judicial process and it is a way of signifying social progress in the
:05:02. > :05:06.path to democracy. You are suggesting it is now convenient for
:05:06. > :05:16.us there are a lot of questions about Lockerbie. Could he answered
:05:16. > :05:20.
:05:20. > :05:26.them? The paper trail is real. is seen as a big win for her
:05:26. > :05:31.President Sarkozy. And also for David Cameron. It was ideal and the
:05:31. > :05:35.time of doom and gloom in the eurozone. In defence, Europe is
:05:35. > :05:45.working very well with the help of the United States. It was very
:05:45. > :05:55.democracy, we are ready to go to war. The problem is, will we do it
:05:55. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :06:04.for Syria? The answer is Guo Zhongfang. -- no. Will regret for
:06:04. > :06:08.Bahrain? No. Well we intervened with Israel and Palestinian to
:06:08. > :06:16.force the peace process? The answer is No that. Libya is the easy part.
:06:16. > :06:25.But at least a dictator... The Romanian dictator was killed the
:06:25. > :06:30.same way. You're off to Tunisia tomorrow. That is where the Arab
:06:30. > :06:34.Spring started. There are elections. How hopeful should we be? We have
:06:34. > :06:40.seen what has happened in Egypt recently with the Army cracking
:06:40. > :06:45.down on Coptic Christians. We have seen some extremism there. Where is
:06:45. > :06:53.Tunisia? There are teething problems. It will happen. People in
:06:53. > :07:00.the Middle East never enjoyed democracy. We do not have it. In
:07:00. > :07:06.Tunisia, the signs are very prosperous. There are five or six
:07:06. > :07:09.major parties there. The Renaissance Party, and his Le Mans
:07:09. > :07:19.party, is the biggest one and there are expectations it could win up to
:07:19. > :07:25.30%. -- and Islamist party. People are determined to have a proper
:07:25. > :07:32.government in their part of the world. His Turkey a model to look
:07:32. > :07:41.to? Yes. The Tunisian election will be the first fruit of the Arab
:07:41. > :07:45.Spring. This is a turning point. The Islamic party in Tunisia are
:07:45. > :07:52.actually taking the justice and Development Party in Turkey as a
:07:52. > :08:02.model. For the first time they said they would not endorse more than
:08:02. > :08:04.
:08:04. > :08:13.one wife. They would not prevent or prohibit beaches for women and men.
:08:13. > :08:18.It means he is actually adopting the ideology of the Turkish party.
:08:18. > :08:24.It's we cannot make the same mistake as Algeria or when there
:08:24. > :08:31.was a coup d'etat. The Army did not like the Islam's. This time it is a
:08:31. > :08:35.moderate Islamist party. The leader has lived in Britain very long time.
:08:35. > :08:40.If they win, I'm sure we can do business with them like we do with
:08:40. > :08:45.Turkey. I am sure they will be moderate. Are there lessons for
:08:45. > :08:52.Europe for the outside powers, for the US, in how to and how not to
:08:52. > :08:56.influence events in Arab countries? Has Libya been a good model? People
:08:56. > :09:04.would say and massacres that could have happened in Benghazi have been
:09:04. > :09:08.prevented and Libyans have sorted out the situation. There is a moral
:09:08. > :09:12.dilemma. People will say you cannot stand aside when slaughter is
:09:12. > :09:22.happening. But are you going top five that model which every other
:09:22. > :09:22.
:09:22. > :09:27.dictatorship QC? Saudi Arabia is hardly a model society. We can look
:09:27. > :09:31.around the world. The reality is that Gaddafi was something of a
:09:31. > :09:37.useful full whose utility had expired. The West was prepared to
:09:37. > :09:43.intervene with a certain figure they would not have shown. We will
:09:43. > :09:46.miss him in the media. He was a clown. He was giving us a lot of
:09:46. > :09:56.headlines during his life. It was true he was a brutal dictator. But
:09:56. > :10:00.
:10:00. > :10:04.there were a lot of, some colour in him. And lots of oil. That is still
:10:04. > :10:08.there. That was not an incentive. Is the same model? It is good for
:10:08. > :10:12.people to pick fights they can win if you are going to pick a fight
:10:12. > :10:17.rather than fight like Iraq or Afghanistan where you cannot win
:10:17. > :10:21.and you still wastes billions of dollars and lots of lives and put
:10:21. > :10:26.society into convulsion. You cannot fix every problem the way that
:10:26. > :10:31.Libya got fixed. The NATO system and air strikes and having a beat
:10:31. > :10:37.Desert Country and then having people willing to fight. That model
:10:37. > :10:41.does not apply to everywhere else. But it worked this time. The West
:10:41. > :10:45.does not have any more money. more money, bombs, aircraft
:10:45. > :10:52.carriers... Let's move on. The presidency of Ireland it's not
:10:52. > :10:59.where the power really lies. But it is a important role. In some senses
:10:59. > :11:01.the embodiment of a sovereign, independent nation. What kind of
:11:01. > :11:07.President does Ireland need and would Martin McGuinness fit the job
:11:07. > :11:10.description? He is already holding an executive position in Northern
:11:10. > :11:14.Ireland and people in Northern Ireland bristle a bit when they see
:11:14. > :11:21.some of the activity in the South saying he is not fit to be the
:11:21. > :11:26.President. But they say he is fit for ours. It's there is a concern
:11:26. > :11:32.that Sinn Fein, who did have an opportunity to choose other
:11:32. > :11:41.candidates because they are a growing force in the south, that by
:11:41. > :11:45.putting Martin McGuinness for what they're looking for some kind of
:11:45. > :11:55.legitimisation of the IRA in Irish history, when there has always been
:11:55. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:12.great revulsion... This would be a kind of why this late claim. DS, we
:12:12. > :12:13.
:12:14. > :12:18.do, embrace the IRA. It's the polls have shown one of two front runners.
:12:18. > :12:24.There is a Transfers system. By virtue of action being well-known
:12:24. > :12:28.and if people are sufficiently alienated from D parties he could
:12:28. > :12:33.give a far better showing than people anticipate. In the last
:12:33. > :12:38.couple of days he has not helped himself by saying he would not be a
:12:38. > :12:42.ceremonial figure. He would criticise government policy. He
:12:43. > :12:47.cannot do that as the head of state. The one particular function the
:12:47. > :12:51.President has is to refer to the Supreme Court any legislation it
:12:51. > :12:54.considers it repugnant to the constitution. He got into
:12:54. > :12:59.difficulty because he was challenged by the families of the
:12:59. > :13:03.soldier killed by the IRA during the Troubles. Do you think it is
:13:03. > :13:12.good that he is standing and it is a marker of the changes in Sinn
:13:12. > :13:17.Fein? Yes. He should not be haunted by his past. Mess that Arafat was
:13:17. > :13:22.considered as a terraced but elected as President of Palestine.
:13:23. > :13:28.Robert Mugabe was also. There were other terrorists who became prime
:13:28. > :13:38.ministers. Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist. I cannot see
:13:38. > :13:38.
:13:38. > :13:42.any problems with him being elected. Last August I met Gerry Adams. I
:13:42. > :13:46.noticed how Sinn Fein has transformed. He was very moderate
:13:46. > :13:56.and very experienced. He was talking a lot of sense. I never
:13:56. > :13:58.
:13:58. > :14:00.felt that. I'm talking to a terrace. I was talking to a statesman.
:14:00. > :14:05.interesting that Becker seemed to have given up the armed struggle.
:14:05. > :14:09.In other words it may be those kinds of terrorist movements have
:14:09. > :14:19.had their day in western Europe. think they have. People are so
:14:19. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:28.worried about the economy. Also in Ireland like in Spain they have
:14:28. > :14:34.pushed regionalisation very far. They are meeting most of the demand.
:14:34. > :14:41.Except independence. Sinn Fein has been untainted by the collapse of
:14:41. > :14:47.Ireland. With a new President comes the beginning of a reverse of
:14:47. > :14:56.Ireland, economically. Ireland, unlike Greece, has a very good
:14:56. > :15:02.workforce and Industry. It seems to have accepted austerity. One thing
:15:02. > :15:12.that was not done in other countries, it has a good tax system
:15:12. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:24.The only one who has an international profile at the
:15:24. > :15:28.candidates, I think he would be seen in the US as a part to wish
:15:28. > :15:35.Mark on the Good Friday process. This is about the validation of the
:15:35. > :15:41.gamble made by all parties to bring Ireland to a different future. He
:15:41. > :15:48.is a marquee name and he has done it in the north. He could probably
:15:48. > :15:58.help in the South get investors in. Is that more of a drawback than his
:15:58. > :16:00.
:16:00. > :16:10.past? It is not more of a throwback than his past. It is created by the
:16:10. > :16:10.
:16:10. > :16:13.actions of Sinn Fein and the IRA. Let's move on. Another crunch
:16:13. > :16:17.European summit. Another chance to fix the problems of the eurozone.
:16:17. > :16:27.Ken the leaders of Europe bring the months of instability and
:16:27. > :16:37.uncertainty to an end and stabilise the markets? Which problem? I'm
:16:37. > :16:37.
:16:37. > :16:42.sorry. At the moment, it is a slow process. Greece will get this money.
:16:42. > :16:49.The European Central Bank will help government. Germany will accept
:16:49. > :16:55.that. That is the interest of the outside world. The eurozone is
:16:55. > :17:00.fundamentally healthy because states which have not done to the
:17:00. > :17:06.austerity measures, once the austerity measures are enforced
:17:06. > :17:13.everywhere, putting grosser side, it is a small country. -- putting
:17:13. > :17:23.Greece aside. Once the austerity measures are in place, the fiscal
:17:23. > :17:27.
:17:27. > :17:32.measure, the eurozone will come back. It is important that the
:17:32. > :17:41.Solidarity Between the member of the eurozone and France and Germany
:17:41. > :17:51.has shown that we can get out of this crisis together. Before the
:17:51. > :17:51.
:17:51. > :18:01.next summit, the ratings agency is havoc. That his trip. Not everybody
:18:01. > :18:02.
:18:02. > :18:05.is a fan of ratings agencies. Because the stakes are so important,
:18:05. > :18:10.there will be a model to a solution. Looking at the numbers, they are
:18:10. > :18:18.scary. If you look at all the assets of European banks, 20
:18:18. > :18:25.trillion euros, a fund of 200 billion euros, that is one or two %
:18:25. > :18:31.of the losses. Italy, their productivity growth in the last ten
:18:31. > :18:41.years. Germany, 10% in the last ten years. Greece can't do value, Italy
:18:41. > :18:48.
:18:48. > :18:52.consider value. And they are poor things to the euro. -- thanks to
:18:52. > :18:56.the euro. If you're sitting in Germany, it is probably quite a
:18:56. > :19:04.good thing in many ways to have the euro relatively weak because of the
:19:04. > :19:14.weakest members. It is openly admitted and has been extremely
:19:14. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:20.good for Germany. If you look at the behaviour of Europe's leaders,
:19:20. > :19:26.they have spoken a great fight but have not acted. It has been slow
:19:26. > :19:34.and bureaucratic. Germany does not want to bounce into things. They
:19:34. > :19:39.need to be parted scission. Challenges for Eurosceptics. They
:19:39. > :19:45.have to see what they are signing up for. They do not want to be
:19:45. > :19:55.rushed into this. There is a suspicion that Sarkozy would quite
:19:55. > :19:56.
:19:56. > :20:00.like to use this direction to protect French banks from exposure.
:20:00. > :20:07.Amid all this solidarity, national interest? They have shown
:20:07. > :20:13.pragmatism. They will be another summit next Wednesday. Maybe even
:20:13. > :20:18.another meeting out of that. The markets did not panic. They have
:20:18. > :20:25.gone up quite considerably. There is suggestion they are doing their
:20:25. > :20:29.homework. Germany is working to rectify the whole thing. The market
:20:29. > :20:35.is asking for patients. The international community are not
:20:35. > :20:40.patient. The Prime Minister of China said to Europe, put your
:20:40. > :20:48.house in order because we can't drag on. The currency is giving
:20:48. > :20:56.lessons to Europe. The problem is for Angela Merkel to solve the deal
:20:56. > :21:00.to the German people and ride a fat cheque to save Greece, this is a
:21:00. > :21:05.huge problem. How to pass this deal through Parliament. How the private
:21:05. > :21:11.builders are going to smash their debt by 50% as many people ask them
:21:11. > :21:19.to do. I believe the summit has a huge responsibility it. They have
:21:19. > :21:26.to take drastic measures and bail out crease otherwise... Greece will
:21:26. > :21:30.be bailed out. It is no longer a problem. Who is there to pay?
:21:30. > :21:36.Europe and central bank. They have money. The government has money.
:21:36. > :21:41.Not the whole eurozone is in a mess. Holland, Scandinavia, Austria,
:21:41. > :21:46.Germany they are doing very well. They can help because they have
:21:46. > :21:55.taken advantage of the eurozone. They have narrowed it down from
:21:55. > :21:59.eight options to either an insurance or the French proposal of
:21:59. > :22:08.the bank. They have worked through something like six other technical
:22:08. > :22:15.proposals. The Greek debt will be much greater.
:22:15. > :22:25.We have seen demonstrations on the streets of Greece, there has been a
:22:25. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:31.huge contraction for Ireland. How ever i o -- irritated the Irish are,
:22:31. > :22:37.they're putting up with it are they? They don't really have a
:22:37. > :22:45.choice. It is the ultimate triumph of broken capitalism that they are
:22:45. > :22:50.socialising their debt and passing it on to the soldiers. People don't
:22:50. > :22:55.no matter where they are really know what the solutions are. Just
:22:55. > :23:05.keep the system working. People have pushed this through. Ireland
:23:05. > :23:13.is a very different case because there is quite an export economy.
:23:13. > :23:23.The amount you are talking about, a percentage of gross domestic
:23:23. > :23:30.product. I was struck by the ability of China to affect the rest
:23:30. > :23:37.of the world. Their economy is not entirely perfect. I guess if I had
:23:37. > :23:42.the problem of only 9% growth, I would feel very sad. But the
:23:42. > :23:52.Chinese realise they are part of the deal. It is the systemic risk
:23:52. > :24:01.everybody is worried about. If we have more trouble than failures we
:24:01. > :24:05.could have a repeat of 2008. The Chinese don't start selling their
:24:05. > :24:14.American bonds, they don't want to upset the applecart. They are
:24:14. > :24:18.making money off the way the system is going. I wanted to bring in mark
:24:18. > :24:23.on the possibility of favourite in the House of Commons on Monday or
:24:23. > :24:29.whether we should have a referendum. I hope Britain has a referendum. I
:24:29. > :24:35.hope the British vote to quit Europe because I think good to be
:24:35. > :24:40.the best thing they could do for us. We had to put up with a country
:24:40. > :24:49.that ended, change the rules, wants its money back, I think it is time
:24:49. > :24:56.the British go their way. It could be the menace. They want to be
:24:56. > :25:00.sovereign. They have a delusion a empire. If we had been in the euro,
:25:00. > :25:08.he wouldn't have the crisis you have today. We would have insisted
:25:08. > :25:18.on adherence to the roles. Unlike France and Germany. They would be a
:25:18. > :25:18.