:00:24. > :00:28.demonstrations across the country. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:28. > :00:32.London. Does saving the eurozone mean sacrificing democracy?
:00:32. > :00:36.Bloodshed in Syria and the Arab spring. Plus could the Republicans
:00:36. > :00:39.find a candidate who could lose to Barack Obama? My guests today are
:00:39. > :00:43.John Fisher Burns of the New York Times. Annalisa Piras of Italy's
:00:43. > :00:47.Espresso. Abdel Bari Atwan of Al Quds al Arabi. And Ned Temko of the
:00:47. > :00:50.Observer. The resignation of Silvio
:00:50. > :00:53.Berlusconi was a long time coming but the new Italian government
:00:53. > :00:56.contains not a single democratically elected politician.
:00:56. > :01:01.In Greece the Papandreou government fell because he suggested he might
:01:01. > :01:03.ask his people to vote on the country's bail out. And elsewhere
:01:03. > :01:07.in Europe there is a great reluctance to consult the people
:01:07. > :01:17.about the future of the European Union. Does saving the euro mean
:01:17. > :01:21.forgetting about democracy for a while? It seems that in Italy.
:01:21. > :01:25.think focusing on that aspect of the prospects -- problem is not the
:01:25. > :01:30.best way of understanding what is going on. When a building is going
:01:30. > :01:39.on, you do not asked if the fireman has been elected, you say, please
:01:39. > :01:44.say best. Mr Monti has the highest popularity level of any politician
:01:44. > :01:49.in 20 years. Public opinion in Italy is right behind Mario Monti.
:01:49. > :01:54.The problem is not democracy, the problem is the failure of elected
:01:54. > :02:00.politicians to tackle the real problems. This is the big issue. We
:02:00. > :02:06.should focus on that. That's a great argument for not having
:02:06. > :02:12.democracy anywhere. The thing is politicians have shown this -- in
:02:12. > :02:20.this crisis they are unable to tackle the problem. If you think
:02:20. > :02:23.about Sarkozy, he stole the wheel of the European Union and said we
:02:24. > :02:28.would deal with it because we are politicians. The technocrats do not
:02:28. > :02:35.understand. What have they done? They are elected politicians and
:02:35. > :02:39.they have made a pig's ear of it. In the next two weeks, if we
:02:39. > :02:45.witness the collapse of the euro we should thank the politics --
:02:45. > :02:53.politicians. Is it that serious that between now and December 9th,
:02:53. > :03:01.the next summit, that is it? It could all be gone. I think it is
:03:01. > :03:06.nearly all over. In the Middle East we have Gaddafi and other dictators
:03:06. > :03:14.and it is repeated in Europe. Sarkozy, Angela Merkel, the
:03:15. > :03:19.eurozone is just Angela Merkel. It is one person called Angela Merkel.
:03:19. > :03:24.But the German people can get rid of her in elections. She was
:03:24. > :03:31.elected and is a legitimate leader of Germany. In theory, they can get
:03:31. > :03:38.rid of her. But what will happen to Germany and the eurozone, she told
:03:38. > :03:44.the congress, she said we must have a united Europe, United eurozone,
:03:44. > :03:49.with more political integration. She was talking about setting up a
:03:49. > :03:59.eurozone empire. I believe this is dangerous. You can see the rulers,
:03:59. > :04:00.
:04:00. > :04:07.the leaders, the elected leaders are going one by one. Berlusconi
:04:07. > :04:14.has already gone. Do we need a European spring? That is a serious
:04:14. > :04:17.question. Last week, we broadcast from Abu Dhabi and people said we
:04:17. > :04:26.want models of democracy for the Arab world and are not looking to
:04:26. > :04:36.Europe. Exactly. Seriously. I believe Berlusconi was a dictator.
:04:36. > :04:36.
:04:36. > :04:43.He was not performing as a democracy. And they wanted a
:04:43. > :04:50.referendum in Greece to support. But they said to him, a referendum
:04:50. > :04:53.or no bail out. This is democracy? You have been on the programme a
:04:53. > :05:00.time's sake Berlusconi will eventually gay but I bet you did
:05:00. > :05:07.not think it would be over austerity? No, but again this is
:05:07. > :05:14.where you thank Europe. Eventually, he went because of the economic
:05:14. > :05:19.situation. But the question about lack of democracy is serious, if
:05:19. > :05:25.technocrats can solve it where politicians fail. It is overstated.
:05:25. > :05:31.In Italy and in Greece, these technocrats took over with the
:05:31. > :05:37.elected mandate of the people in Parliament. They basically realised
:05:37. > :05:43.the game was up. They did not stage a coup d'etat. I would not get
:05:43. > :05:46.carried away with the notion of democracy. What's more interesting,
:05:47. > :05:53.the way you phrased it initially was is in the euro or democratic
:05:53. > :05:57.institutions? I think in a straight fight between the euro as it is now
:05:57. > :06:02.constituted and the European Union which has little popular
:06:02. > :06:06.credibility throughout the Continent, and a single currency,
:06:06. > :06:14.in the end to the single currency may lose and basically you will
:06:14. > :06:20.find the elephant in the room is if the pressures become unbearable and
:06:20. > :06:26.if as Barry says Angela Merkel and Sarkozy and the collective
:06:26. > :06:32.political leadership of Europe continue with their almost buffoon
:06:32. > :06:37.like inability to do what everybody knows is necessary, and that is
:06:37. > :06:41.deliver a credible side to the markets but the institutions of the
:06:41. > :06:47.European Union stand behind the sovereign debt, the option that is
:06:47. > :06:57.open his either not a bail out but to bail in. Banks are taking a
:06:57. > :07:00.haircut, or some of these economies saying we would take back some of
:07:00. > :07:03.the national powers with which we used to sort out economic crisis,
:07:03. > :07:08.devaluation, setting our own interest rates, having a run
:07:08. > :07:13.currency. I do not think you can assume the euro will survive that
:07:13. > :07:22.pressure. When I have talking to American business people, almost
:07:22. > :07:27.all of them seem to think the euro it will fail. They do. A lot of
:07:27. > :07:33.this talk underestimates Europe and the Greeks and the Italians and
:07:33. > :07:43.their ability to solve their problems. It is not about corrupt
:07:43. > :07:44.
:07:44. > :07:51.democracy but politics. It might be well for the British to remember
:07:51. > :07:59.there was, if I remember correctly, a period of nine years from 36-1945
:07:59. > :08:06.when we had no general election. Be with the most tumultuous years --
:08:06. > :08:11.they were the most tumultuous years in a history. There was no decision
:08:11. > :08:16.about going to war in 1939. Churchill never had a mandate but
:08:16. > :08:20.there were few people who would have questions in the emergency the
:08:20. > :08:25.government of national unity was the right way to go. I think we
:08:25. > :08:33.should stand back and give the Italians and the Greeks time to get
:08:33. > :08:37.their house in order and they will. The problem is the markets. Will
:08:37. > :08:42.they give them the time? Things move so quickly. I agree with what
:08:42. > :08:47.John said, both of the countries have the cultural and social
:08:47. > :08:52.strength to tackle this. One of the most impressive things about the
:08:52. > :08:57.Italian response which is a little bit different from the Greek
:08:57. > :09:05.response is that does not seem to be a resistance on the ground to
:09:05. > :09:12.doing what is required. And it's fundamentally a rich country.
:09:12. > :09:19.a poor country of rich people! The consensus in Italy that things
:09:19. > :09:22.would move quickly in the right direction now. Mr Monti has been
:09:22. > :09:25.receiving the confidence of the Senate and Parliament so there is
:09:25. > :09:32.hope it will happen quickly. The problem is not only Italy and
:09:32. > :09:39.Greece, also Germany because as Cameron reminded us this week, the
:09:39. > :09:49.problem is will the central bank be allowed to use it to kill this.
:09:49. > :09:52.
:09:52. > :10:00.is not just the British, it has been said. Mario druggy is saying
:10:00. > :10:06.give the institutions the means to tackle the crisis. He says they
:10:06. > :10:09.need the funds promised by the politicians. The attention is now
:10:09. > :10:14.on Germany because Germany seems to be the only obstacle to sort out
:10:14. > :10:21.the crisis because everybody seems to know what needs to be done and
:10:21. > :10:25.you have to give the central bank the opportunity to secure the debt.
:10:25. > :10:30.There is an admission that politicians failed and technocrats
:10:30. > :10:38.should take over, in Greece and Italy. It seems like a snowball.
:10:39. > :10:43.Secondly, now we have a Europe of the eurozone and the Europe of the
:10:43. > :10:49.money raised in. 17 countries in the eurozone and 10 countries
:10:49. > :10:55.outside. It is a dangerous split. The European Union used to give us
:10:55. > :11:05.a good example of unity and harmony. Now, we can see rows between the
:11:05. > :11:06.
:11:06. > :11:15.sides and Cameron and Angela Merkel. It is indicative. When they said
:11:15. > :11:19.Europe is talking German. This is very dangerous now. In a time of
:11:20. > :11:28.crisis we expect them to work together to be united, to tackle
:11:28. > :11:33.the crisis but we cannot see this. On the narrow point, David
:11:33. > :11:40.Cameron... European politicians say nobody is listening to Britain and
:11:40. > :11:46.they do not care. Especially in Germany, they would like Britain to
:11:47. > :11:53.be a full part but they're not. Interestingly in Britain even a
:11:53. > :11:59.Labour, Ndure enthusiastic though it has been is much more sceptical
:11:59. > :12:06.now. You do not hear anybody saying let's join the euro. On this so-
:12:06. > :12:10.called Tobin tax, no mainstream politician... Even those who think
:12:11. > :12:16.the Robin Hood tax is good because it gives to the poor recognise a
:12:16. > :12:21.tax that taxes the City of London to bail out Greece is probably not
:12:22. > :12:27.a great idea politically. It might be a good idea from the American
:12:27. > :12:31.perspective to remember it took from the American Revolution 15
:12:31. > :12:36.years and a financial crisis for the 13 colonies before the United
:12:36. > :12:45.States of America in its present form was born in Philadelphia. It
:12:45. > :12:49.was born in part to deal with problems of mounting debt and
:12:49. > :12:52.currency. It may take Europe another few years to get this right
:12:52. > :12:55.but who can doubt in the end it will?
:12:55. > :12:58.Syria is now fast becoming a pariah state and some believe we are
:12:58. > :13:06.already witnessing a civil war. What next for Syria and the other
:13:06. > :13:15.countries touched by the Arab spring? Saif al-Islam has been
:13:15. > :13:18.arrested. Does it matter? The regime is history. It is a strong
:13:18. > :13:25.message to the Syrian president, look what happened to Gaddafi and
:13:25. > :13:31.his son. So, I think he should realise that. The time is nearly
:13:31. > :13:39.over. Unless he does something very drastic and quick. Syria is
:13:39. > :13:46.isolated. It is on the verge of economic sanctions from Europe and
:13:46. > :13:50.also the Arab world. Its membership in the Arab League is spending now.
:13:50. > :13:55.The most dangerous thing is the country is drifting towards civil
:13:55. > :14:01.war. We have already witnessed some of this when a dissident from the
:14:01. > :14:06.Syrian army attacked the military buildings and headquarters of the
:14:06. > :14:14.Syrian army. It could be bloody. The problem is that his eight
:14:14. > :14:24.international decision to depose and remove Al Assad as leader of
:14:24. > :14:31.
:14:31. > :14:38.Syria but at what cost? Syria is Of the and he is supported by the
:14:38. > :14:43.ethnic minorities. So a civil war could go to full speed. In this
:14:43. > :14:48.case, it could be terribly bloody. The civil war in Algeria cost us
:14:48. > :14:54.200,000 deaths. The civil war in Lebanon lasted for more than 17
:14:54. > :14:59.years. In Yemen, it was awful and bloody. If the same thing is going
:14:59. > :15:02.to be repeated in Syria, it is unbelievable. There does not seem
:15:02. > :15:06.to be any appetite for outsiders to do anything other than say, we
:15:06. > :15:12.think there should be changed in Syria and we do not want people to
:15:12. > :15:15.be killed, but we are not going to do anything. It brings us back to
:15:15. > :15:20.why they are not looking to Europe for leadership. We are losing
:15:20. > :15:26.credibility, because when you are seen to intervene in Libya and then
:15:26. > :15:31.to let the massacre go on in Syria, as it has for a few months, what
:15:31. > :15:37.kind of moral leadership does the West have? They should have done
:15:37. > :15:42.something much earlier. We are seeing a kind of slow-motion car
:15:42. > :15:47.crash. We are going towards a civil war, and there will be so much
:15:47. > :15:52.bloodshed, and you do not see any appetite to do anything about it.
:15:52. > :15:58.It struck me during the debate about Syria that there is sometimes
:15:58. > :16:04.a contradiction from those who are now saying, why does the West not
:16:04. > :16:11.do more and some who are saying we should use military intervention of
:16:11. > :16:13.one kind or another. Those voicing this view, who include a
:16:13. > :16:16.considerable number of left-of- centre Liberals, are the same
:16:17. > :16:24.people who I recall as having led the charge against American
:16:24. > :16:30.intervention in Iraq. It seems to me that they need to rethink this
:16:30. > :16:36.question of the legitimacy of the use of military power, which we
:16:36. > :16:39.unarguably have, to influence events. Chairperson early think a
:16:39. > :16:45.military intervention in Syria would -- I personally think a
:16:45. > :16:49.military intervention in Syria would be a disaster. Those who talk
:16:49. > :16:53.about the dead in Syria might want to remember that there were weeks
:16:53. > :16:57.in which Saddam Hussein killed thousands of his own people. Not to
:16:57. > :17:01.say that that justifies what happened in Iraq. That is a
:17:01. > :17:06.question which will rage on through history. But there is an
:17:06. > :17:10.inconsistency here. I do not agree with Annalisa about the corruption
:17:11. > :17:14.of Europe or Western moral values in this. Libya is only the most
:17:14. > :17:19.recent example where the intelligent application of Western
:17:19. > :17:29.military force in that case was an an arguable benefit to the Libyan
:17:29. > :17:34.people. Yet, the answer to Anna Lisa and others who say, why
:17:34. > :17:40.haven't the West intervened, was pretty much what you said. It would
:17:40. > :17:45.be a mess. Everybody understands that. It is not for lack of wanting
:17:45. > :17:49.to change regime in Syria. One of the most extraordinary changes over
:17:50. > :17:57.the last eight or nine months is to see the Arab League first of all in
:17:57. > :18:04.Libya, but more importantly in Syria, because the legitimacy of
:18:04. > :18:11.the Assad regime has been based on the fact that this is the consumer
:18:11. > :18:16.Arab political regime, a fount of steadfastness against Israel and
:18:16. > :18:20.all this sort of stuff, when in fact, because of the so-called Arab
:18:21. > :18:28.Spring, there is a recognition now that things that would have just
:18:28. > :18:32.been accepted five or ten years ago... One of the reasons for the
:18:32. > :18:39.hesitation - I spent years as a foreign correspondent in Beirut
:18:39. > :18:46.during some of the worst of the civil war. No matter how brutal
:18:46. > :18:52.some intelligence forces and armies in that part of the world could be,
:18:52. > :18:56.the Syrians took the gold medal. You rarely say kind things about
:18:56. > :18:59.the Arab League, but you think on this, they have got it right?
:19:00. > :19:05.do not know what is right or wrong in the Middle East nowadays. 20
:19:05. > :19:10.years ago, I was one of the most popular writers and commentators,
:19:10. > :19:16.because I was against American intervention in Iraq. The Libyan
:19:16. > :19:22.people used to a dormie, and the Syrians. Nowadays, because I am
:19:22. > :19:26.against intervention, I am the least popular person. And the same
:19:26. > :19:33.people who loved me now hate me because I was against intervention
:19:33. > :19:37.in Libya. The people in Syria because I was -- the people in
:19:37. > :19:42.Syria who loved me because I was against intervention in Iraq now
:19:42. > :19:50.love me -- now hate me because am against intervention in Syria.
:19:50. > :19:56.People are fed up. They were humiliated. They had no pride, no
:19:56. > :20:00.human rights, no democracy, no elections, nothing but brutality.
:20:01. > :20:03.So they want anything. The its move on. Anyone outside the
:20:03. > :20:07.US watching the Republican Party debates to find someone to
:20:07. > :20:11.challenge Barack Obama will have been struck by Texas governor Rick
:20:11. > :20:14.Perry's difficulty in keeping his foot out of his mouth. Despite all
:20:14. > :20:18.the problems Barack Obama faces, with a year to go until the
:20:18. > :20:25.presidential elections, is it possible that the Republicans might
:20:25. > :20:32.pick a candidate who can actually win? I grant you, between Rick
:20:32. > :20:35.Perry and came lately, it has looked improbably. But a year in
:20:35. > :20:38.politics is a very long time. We do not know which direction the
:20:39. > :20:42.financial crisis will go and how much further that will undermine
:20:42. > :20:51.the already shaky standing of Barack Obama in American public
:20:51. > :20:59.opinion. There is a remote possibility also of what you might
:20:59. > :21:04.call a Fonteyn bloat moment. In 1951, after he had turned back both
:21:04. > :21:08.the Democratic and Republican party nominations, bright Eisenhower
:21:08. > :21:13.received as Supreme Commander in Europe a delegation of Republican
:21:13. > :21:22.senators who said, you have to do this for the party and for the
:21:22. > :21:26.country. And Berlusconi has time on his hands now. But there would not
:21:26. > :21:35.have to fly to Paris. They would only have to across the Potomac
:21:35. > :21:40.River. I think they would rather ask Jeb Bush. Whether it is David
:21:40. > :21:46.Petraeus or George Bush, there may be a best X machine or in this.
:21:46. > :21:52.Berlusconi! But my mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich are bright and in
:21:52. > :21:58.command of the issues, but not winning? The few are watching from
:21:58. > :22:03.this side of the Atlantic, the debates seem like a series of
:22:03. > :22:10.Saturday Night Live sketches. They are nothing if not entertaining.
:22:10. > :22:14.How did Rick Perry become governor? Who knows? But the background for
:22:15. > :22:22.this is the rise of the tea party, the fact that there is, at
:22:22. > :22:26.grassroots level in the US, a sense that anybody but Made one knee is
:22:26. > :22:31.who we want. That presents a problem because you get these ebbs
:22:31. > :22:38.and flows. This week, Newt Gingrich is high in the polls, but he has a
:22:38. > :22:44.lot of vulnerability as well. He is not very right wing any more. He is
:22:45. > :22:50.quite conciliatory on a range of issues. He has a string of marital
:22:50. > :22:58.interests that have yet to be resolved financially. He was a
:22:58. > :23:00.lobbyist in Washington. So it is not as easy. On Saturday Night Live,
:23:00. > :23:07.famously, you know how they called the elections like you do on the
:23:07. > :23:14.BBC, after the Rick Perry whoops moment, they called the election
:23:14. > :23:17.for Mitt Romney. Do we need a European spring and also an
:23:17. > :23:26.American spring to take advantage of the passions sweeping the Arab
:23:26. > :23:33.world? Thank God we do not have Sarah Palin running for President.
:23:33. > :23:38.But it is nice to have those entertainers. All the stories of
:23:38. > :23:42.the wives and ex-wives exposing Newt Gingrich. McCain says the
:23:42. > :23:46.Taliban is participating in the government in Libya. You also have
:23:46. > :23:51.Romany, who wants to bomb Iran tomorrow or maybe yesterday. It is
:23:51. > :23:56.nice. It makes life as a journalist very spicy. Look at the Middle East
:23:56. > :24:01.now. What shall I write about? No Gaddafi, no Hosni Mubarak, no
:24:01. > :24:05.Saddam Hussein. Tomorrow, no Syria. At least we have those people to
:24:05. > :24:10.write about. So as a citizen, you are alarmed, but as a journalist,
:24:10. > :24:17.you are cheered up by this? It is good stories for us, something to
:24:17. > :24:21.talk about. Let's not forget that Ronald Reagan, before he became
:24:21. > :24:26.President, when he had thrown his cap into the ring as a contender,
:24:27. > :24:32.had many embarrassing moments which led many people to say "That joker
:24:32. > :24:37.could never be elected as President". He served two terms and
:24:37. > :24:41.now stands in the estimates of many as one of the greater precedence.
:24:41. > :24:45.At least it takes minds off the imminent closure or otherwise of
:24:45. > :24:54.the euro. Yes, but you do not want a joker in the White House if
:24:54. > :24:59.Europe explodes. That is not a funny joke. But the election has
:24:59. > :25:02.been an exercise in democracy. People have appeared on TV and the
:25:02. > :25:07.Americans have had a chance to judge if they are good or not.
:25:07. > :25:11.are seeing what a great entertainer can do to our country with Mr
:25:11. > :25:18.Berlusconi. I do not think there is a great lesson to draw there. No
:25:18. > :25:21.entertainers, please, we need serious people. One good thing
:25:22. > :25:25.about the primary process is that it does tend to throw up, at the
:25:25. > :25:30.end of the game, two confident candidates. You may not like either