:00:04. > :00:14.Now it is time for our foreign correspondents to give up their
:00:14. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:28.views on the latest news in Hello, welcome to Dateline London's
:00:28. > :00:32.year in review. From the Arab spring to the possible meltdown of
:00:32. > :00:37.the euro with sitting governments across the world feeling the anger
:00:37. > :00:47.of those suffering from bad economies. Plus British tabloid
:00:47. > :00:50.
:00:50. > :00:55.It is good to see you all. The Arab spring. It has rewritten the
:00:55. > :00:59.politics of the Middle East, seen three dictators and inspired other
:00:59. > :01:04.protesters from Russia to Uganda. How significant has it been for the
:01:04. > :01:10.region and the world? Barry, you talk on this programme for some
:01:10. > :01:17.years about corruption and awful dictators and -- in parts of the
:01:17. > :01:24.Arab world why did it happen in 2011 and begin in Tunisia?
:01:24. > :01:33.frustration was huge. 60 million unemployed... The gap between the
:01:33. > :01:39.rulers and the ruled was huge. The average age of the rulers was over
:01:39. > :01:47.70. You can see that it could not work. Mubarak was in power for 40
:01:47. > :01:53.years. Others were in power for many years. This kind of thing
:01:53. > :01:58.cannot continue forever. The question is, we were expecting it.
:01:58. > :02:02.We are expecting something to happen but we never expected the
:02:02. > :02:12.revolution to start in Tunisia. Tunisia was much better than other
:02:12. > :02:22.countries. I expected to start in Egypt. 40 million people under the
:02:22. > :02:25.
:02:26. > :02:33.poverty line. Mubarak so corrupt, and also denied his wife used to
:02:33. > :02:37.have 1,000 pairs of shoes -- his wife used to have 1,000 pairs of
:02:37. > :02:45.shoes. We expected the revolution to start in Egypt with 40 million
:02:45. > :02:49.people below the poverty line. Unemployment, corruption, why this
:02:49. > :02:56.year, honestly nobody can tell. was going to happen sooner or
:02:56. > :03:04.later? Mark, has 2011 changed how many people around the world see
:03:04. > :03:08.Arab countries? Post-colonial Arab people have not done what the young
:03:08. > :03:17.men and women have done this year. It seems to have changed how they
:03:17. > :03:27.are seen. The West has not a monopoly on the quest for democracy.
:03:27. > :03:30.
:03:30. > :03:36.There Arab world also has it. In the 90s in Algeria or... Things
:03:36. > :03:45.have changed. Europe is back in the picture of the Middle East. The
:03:45. > :03:49.Libyan campaign has been made by France and Britain and in Tunisia,
:03:49. > :03:54.France and for the first time we see America in the background in
:03:54. > :03:59.the Middle East. Almost consciously in a way. The Americans have left
:03:59. > :04:06.it to the British and the French largely. Militarily they were there.
:04:06. > :04:09.It shows that the foreign policy of the EU does exist and that that
:04:09. > :04:14.foreign policy which has been disregarded by many has been played
:04:14. > :04:20.very well in the Arab world. The Arab world is looking to Europe as
:04:20. > :04:27.an example of what they want, not the euro crisis, the Institution of
:04:27. > :04:32.Europe. Geoff, do you think there disconnection between the Obama
:04:32. > :04:35.administration and what is going on? Obama made that made -- great
:04:35. > :04:40.speech in Cairo a few years ago suggesting he was a different
:04:40. > :04:46.President from George Bush but he is so preoccupied by matters back
:04:46. > :04:51.home that he has left the Arab spring to the Arab people. If he
:04:51. > :04:55.had not, what would he have done? That is the question. You can look
:04:55. > :05:02.at this as a successful American policy in a way. By not getting
:05:02. > :05:10.involved? Exactly. This is a success for a kind of globalised
:05:10. > :05:15.model that was... Clinton talked about it a while back, the desire
:05:15. > :05:18.to do something different in the country that permeates different
:05:18. > :05:22.kinds of technologies and different economies that makes people rise up
:05:22. > :05:27.themselves to solve their own problems. American troops had just
:05:27. > :05:35.left Iraq. Nobody even talked about that. This is a story that has died.
:05:35. > :05:39.Is this as excess? This was the old fashioned way of trying... The
:05:39. > :05:46.large armies, spending trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands
:05:46. > :05:49.of lives, it was not successful. Obama said he was going to lead
:05:49. > :05:54.from behind. It was a lot of American intelligence that helped
:05:54. > :05:58.the British and the French to do the work in Libya. I would say that
:05:58. > :06:03.is fantastic, what a success. If we have President's keeping doing
:06:03. > :06:08.things that way we will be a lot better off. I think Obama has done
:06:08. > :06:12.brilliantly. It is a real model for how America should not want to be
:06:12. > :06:16.seen any longer as the great world policeman, the one who steps in and
:06:16. > :06:23.puts everything right. Europe and America have a lot of apologising
:06:23. > :06:27.to do to the Arab people. If you think to the extent that we are all
:06:27. > :06:34.responsible for keeping empower monstrous dictators because it
:06:34. > :06:39.suited us. In Bahrain, we are still doing it, and Saudi Arabia. We have
:06:39. > :06:46.dirty hands in this business. For once we had done cleanly and well.
:06:46. > :06:52.If the Arab people forgive us if we are very lucky. Did you find this
:06:52. > :06:57.an expiring year? If you listen to young Arab men and women making an
:06:57. > :07:02.articulate case for the kind of future they want... I thought that
:07:02. > :07:06.was striking. It reminds you that everybody, everywhere, once
:07:06. > :07:11.democracy if they want -- if they get the chance. North Korea may be
:07:11. > :07:16.the next place. Clinton used to say that. If you look at the map of the
:07:16. > :07:21.last 50 years it has been across the world, gradual democratisation
:07:21. > :07:25.of large chunks of the world that were not a democratic before. Maybe
:07:25. > :07:30.not perfect democracies but better than before. We have to believe in
:07:30. > :07:40.hope... We have to hope that human aspiration will inevitably roll out
:07:40. > :07:41.
:07:41. > :07:49.everywhere. What about Syria? agree with Polly. The Arab words...
:07:49. > :07:59.Suffer from humiliation. One from a brutal rulers and the second from
:07:59. > :08:01.
:08:01. > :08:10.the West. They admitted it defeated despite Obama saying we left
:08:10. > :08:17.holding -- holding our head high. There is unfinished business, isn't
:08:17. > :08:22.there? However brave the people are in Syria they could be more
:08:22. > :08:28.bloodshed to come. For the last nine months they have been
:08:28. > :08:32.revolting, protesting and nobody is helping them. People give up or are
:08:32. > :08:41.about to give up because there is no intervention from the
:08:41. > :08:44.international community. Things are more complicated than that. How
:08:45. > :08:49.could you do it? If you were President Barack Obama and you
:08:49. > :08:53.wanted to take out of the regime, how could you do it? It is
:08:53. > :09:02.complement -- complicated and militarily impossible. You would
:09:02. > :09:12.see more of a civil war that we see now. In Iraq it never happened. It
:09:12. > :09:13.
:09:13. > :09:17.was a huge defeat after nine years. There is some sort of recognition
:09:17. > :09:22.that the Taliban is a new power, deposed ten years ago and we are
:09:22. > :09:25.ready to reinstate them again. Syria is complicated, a lot of
:09:25. > :09:35.sectarian divisions. If civil war erupted we could be stuck there for
:09:35. > :09:35.
:09:35. > :09:43.years. Civil war in Lebanon lasted for 18 years. If it came to Syria
:09:43. > :09:53.it would be a huge setback. Without the French and the British and the
:09:53. > :09:53.
:09:53. > :10:03.Hall of the America of... It was not better before. It is not
:10:03. > :10:05.
:10:05. > :10:09.sectarian,... One thing I am surprised we do not discuss is the
:10:09. > :10:14.Israeli and Palestinian problem. It has been put under the rug and this
:10:14. > :10:21.is the future of 2011 Why we focused on the Arab spring. The
:10:21. > :10:30.other conflict has been completely inured. It will come. If you see
:10:30. > :10:36.for example who is taking over in Egypt and who will take over in
:10:36. > :10:41.Syria. This will be reflected badly on the Arab-Israeli conflict. From
:10:41. > :10:46.the eyes of the Western perspective. The peace process failed and now
:10:46. > :10:49.because it has failed no pressure on Israel and the Muslim
:10:49. > :10:54.Brotherhood will say, we will give you the chance and now it is our
:10:54. > :10:58.turn. The economic news for 2011 has been
:10:58. > :11:02.high unemployment, lack of leadership and in Europe the
:11:02. > :11:10.possibility of the meltdown of the euro itself. How have the world's
:11:10. > :11:14.democracies cope? Not very well, some people think. The euro is
:11:14. > :11:20.still there, it is still strong. Germany and France are working
:11:20. > :11:26.together to get it right. There is a new fiscal treaty. I think the
:11:26. > :11:31.year which has gone has shown how important the Franco-German axis
:11:32. > :11:36.has been to save Europe against the most incredible speculation from a
:11:36. > :11:40.market. That may be true but the one thing that has been missing is
:11:40. > :11:43.not the question of leadership but by the question of candour.
:11:43. > :11:46.Throughout the year we have been told they are just about us all
:11:46. > :11:51.that, they have got a plan, numerous summits and nothing has
:11:51. > :12:01.actually worked. The markets do not believe it. It has been obvious
:12:01. > :12:02.
:12:02. > :12:12.that Greece is in default. It is constantly denied. I know that the
:12:12. > :12:13.
:12:13. > :12:17.notion of solidarity... Transparency and truth! We have
:12:17. > :12:22.Greek... Germany tried to help Greece because they are part of the
:12:22. > :12:32.eurozone. It depends what you call help. I am astonished to hear this
:12:32. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:35.from you. I look at what Europe is doing and this is a Europe of
:12:35. > :12:44.extreme conservatism, Sarkozy and Merkel imposing austerity on
:12:44. > :12:50.countries that cannot bear it. A return to the economics of the
:12:50. > :12:54.1930s. Watching Europe go the wrong way... Do you want the Germans to
:12:54. > :12:58.give all this money and the Greeks to continue with their ways? If
:12:58. > :13:03.there needs to be austerity. There needs to be a collective programme
:13:03. > :13:07.for growth, not austerity. They need to increase taxes, privatise
:13:07. > :13:14.and reform their administration. That is the pressure on the euro.
:13:15. > :13:21.Most people believe that... They are bust. It is a little country
:13:21. > :13:25.compared to the overall project. You're trying to impose on them and
:13:25. > :13:31.us -- and austerity they cannot possibly... No country with the
:13:31. > :13:40.best will in the world could survive it. Spain, Italy, they have
:13:40. > :13:48.done it. Talking about one country out of 27 countries, that is Greece.
:13:48. > :13:54.The eurozone... We in the Middle East suffer from these austerity
:13:54. > :13:57.measures imposed by the IMF and other funds and it has a huge
:13:57. > :14:06.social repercussions. People hate it in the Middle East that the
:14:06. > :14:10.IMF... When you mention the IMF, people we know that food subsidies
:14:10. > :14:19.will be removed, other subsidies will be removed and people will
:14:19. > :14:24.suffer. On the Greek side, I will be astonished, I would be scared of
:14:24. > :14:29.these measures being imposed. I believe Greece is humiliated by the
:14:29. > :14:33.two superpowers in Europe, France and Germany are saying, you should
:14:34. > :14:39.do this, you should do that. I think we should be a bit kinder to
:14:39. > :14:48.Greece. So then conned -- so they can continue with their bad ways?
:14:48. > :14:58.So they can continue to spend? The reason the austerity measure... We
:14:58. > :15:00.
:15:00. > :15:07.You are right that we need to reorganise the economy, but we need
:15:07. > :15:17.to go for growth. The EU see no programme for growth anywhere. Not
:15:17. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:31.exports, nothing you can imagine -- you see. The American economy is
:15:31. > :15:32.
:15:32. > :15:39.still in a mess. I agree. Part of it is a divided government. I think
:15:39. > :15:43.the circumstances in the US are different to Europe. I agree with
:15:43. > :15:49.you that politics are in a state of gridlocked - a worse state of
:15:49. > :15:55.gridlock and I can ever remember happening. The system has been
:15:55. > :15:59.billed for distributed power to prevent autocracy. That is what the
:16:00. > :16:06.Founding Fathers were worried about in the 18th century. Somehow in the
:16:06. > :16:16.years after the Cold War there was enough of a sense of common threat
:16:16. > :16:17.
:16:17. > :16:21.that people were able to come together and do things.... There
:16:21. > :16:27.really is no, no agreement about what people should do in the US any
:16:27. > :16:32.more. That is one of the factors that makes the US less powerful in
:16:32. > :16:40.the world, which has a cyclical affect. A less powerful people
:16:40. > :16:47.think you are, no less powerful you really are. I would say, in the
:16:47. > :16:50.same way... People will start paying attention to the fact that
:16:50. > :16:55.our educational standards are decreasing and that the things we
:16:55. > :17:03.are creating for our children are not enough any more. When I look at
:17:03. > :17:06.Europe I think - what a pathetic enterprise. I can't see how we
:17:06. > :17:13.stability pact that has people spending less and agreeing there
:17:13. > :17:23.will be penalties on governments to do not deficits bend will solve the
:17:23. > :17:31.
:17:31. > :17:36.problem. -- deficit spend. The political will is to help Europe
:17:36. > :17:46.come out of this mess. The good news is that, of course it now we
:17:46. > :17:47.
:17:48. > :17:55.are 26. Britain is a semi-detached member. Somebody like you who is on
:17:55. > :18:03.the left - you have bought into this 1930s economic idea. Why are
:18:03. > :18:10.you not saying "listen, this is no way to generate growth"? We need
:18:10. > :18:17.growth. You need to read the fundamentals right. Economies need
:18:17. > :18:25.good taxation and good austerity. You need to tax the rich more.
:18:25. > :18:35.think the point - everybody in 2011 has been modelling a long, but
:18:35. > :18:48.
:18:48. > :18:50.nothing is coming through. -- muddling. We have had 26 strong,
:18:50. > :18:58.and the odd man and not, which is always making life difficult in
:18:58. > :19:04.Europe.... We have the help of the two big countries, France and
:19:04. > :19:12.Germany. So we are back to that pre-Second World War time. No, we
:19:12. > :19:16.are back... On that note, we will move on. This has been an
:19:16. > :19:23.extraordinary year for newspapers. The practices of some newspapers
:19:23. > :19:32.have been laid bare in their awfulness. Dig 2011 mark the
:19:32. > :19:36.beginning of the end for these practices? it has been a terrible
:19:36. > :19:40.year for the industry. Indeed, newspapers are in decline
:19:40. > :19:48.everywhere. They probably will not last much longer in their present
:19:48. > :19:54.form. Journalism will continue online. This great revelation about
:19:54. > :19:59.phone hacking was not really a surprise. You only had to pick up a
:19:59. > :20:03.copy of them to know that they were fill the papers. Britain probably
:20:03. > :20:10.has the filthiest papers in the Western democratic world because of
:20:10. > :20:18.the dominance of 3-4 rogue, eccentric owners of newspapers who
:20:18. > :20:24.have dominated the British press back to the 1930s. We have an
:20:24. > :20:32.extremely right-wing, unpleasant, Euro-sceptic press. It has
:20:32. > :20:38.dominated our politics in ways that have forced it to become a footnote.
:20:38. > :20:47.The Murdoch press, which still owns 40% of our main newspapers - they
:20:47. > :20:50.are mostly living in tax havens, they are weird people who manage
:20:50. > :20:55.our national conversation. They have been dealt a blow with the
:20:55. > :21:00.exposure of their methods, but do I think that next time this year we
:21:00. > :21:05.will still have a nasty press? I think so. I think you might like an
:21:05. > :21:14.is to the Arab dictators. (LAUGHTER).
:21:14. > :21:17.What happened in the Arab spring is here. I remember the chief of the
:21:17. > :21:24.Washington Post poll this wonderful story about coming across several
:21:24. > :21:34.national newspapers reporting on a country that was selling
:21:34. > :21:37.scaffolding in Africa because it was made of British rock. It turned
:21:38. > :21:47.out some by had talked it up at the Palm and papers had written about
:21:48. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :21:53.it but nobody had ever made a phone call -- hotel bar.... I think the
:21:53. > :22:01.press will have to be restrained, and everybody needs to understand
:22:01. > :22:04.that. There needs to be a cultural shift, do we need an ombudsman? I
:22:04. > :22:10.think the best thing would be that the requirement that any corruption
:22:10. > :22:15.be bought in the paper and naming the names of the guilty.
:22:15. > :22:20.correction? In some newspapers, such a thing does not exist. There
:22:20. > :22:25.are one or two where they have started put corrections in.
:22:25. > :22:34.Guardian began doing that. Now some of the more respectable papers are
:22:34. > :22:40.doing it. Our corrections are right there on a map centre leading page.
:22:40. > :22:45.-- our. Do I think that the British press will improve? Not under the
:22:45. > :22:55.present ownership. Since I came to this country I witnessed three
:22:55. > :23:04.
:23:04. > :23:10.scandals.... The pension thing (INAUDIBLE). He ended up in prison.
:23:10. > :23:16.Another scandal at News of the World, phone hacking. Are the
:23:16. > :23:24.British media are used to be our model. People like me would look to
:23:24. > :23:34.Britain. I am not sure if it's the same case can apply now. We have
:23:34. > :23:37.
:23:37. > :23:47.had some fantastic investigations... Exactly. Not just for these kind of
:23:47. > :23:56.
:23:56. > :24:00.things but also for the Middle East - most Middle-Eastern people...
:24:00. > :24:03.Britain, for all its faults, the press is very vigorous. Someone
:24:03. > :24:13.like Jacques Chirac would have been exposed by British newspapers years
:24:13. > :24:14.
:24:14. > :24:22.ago. I always feel uncomfortable because I have always defended the
:24:22. > :24:30.tabloid press. In France we cover up scandals. Thanks to the Guardian
:24:30. > :24:34.we discovered that the whole system was covered by Murdoch, the police,
:24:34. > :24:40.the politicians, the courts. Everything. I think today the
:24:40. > :24:48.British press has, with the exception of the Guardian, the
:24:48. > :24:53.British press needs to reform itself. Will it? The money is not
:24:53. > :25:02.there for online journalism as far as we know. There is no way to
:25:03. > :25:08.monotypes it - that horrible phrase. The Guardian is surviving, the New
:25:09. > :25:14.York Times is surviving - there is still a place for good journalism.
:25:14. > :25:20.The world is so complicated, we need more than ever some good
:25:20. > :25:25.explanations and good press. That is true. There is no lack of
:25:25. > :25:29.appetite for good, accurate stories. We have a huge global reach for the
:25:30. > :25:36.guardian Online. But we do not make money out of it because there is no
:25:36. > :25:41.advertising. Not enough to pay for the depth and quality of journalism
:25:41. > :25:45.which really costs money - journalism is not free. If people
:25:45. > :25:50.think they can go to any old website aimed at the news - they
:25:50. > :25:55.need the news from somewhere they trust. That's all for Dateline