:00:02. > :00:12.being blamed on Boko Haram. Christian leaders said they will
:00:12. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:34.Welcome to Dateline London, a week when the United States announced
:00:34. > :00:39.defence cuts and a shift towards the Pacific while Republicans
:00:39. > :00:45.choose their candidate to take on a bye. The recent low of Stephen
:00:45. > :00:52.Lawrence - has it changed Britain? The latest atrocities in Syria. --
:00:52. > :01:00.the recent murder. My guests today are Mustapha Karkouti, Eunice Goes,
:01:00. > :01:04.Bernard Burrell and Yasmin Alibhain Brown. Barack Obama has admitted
:01:04. > :01:08.that to be supposed military strategy of fighting to make big
:01:08. > :01:14.wars simultaneously is not attainable. -- achievable. They
:01:14. > :01:24.will shift emphasis to the Pacific. Should the world welcomed the news
:01:24. > :01:25.
:01:26. > :01:30.and should his Republican opponents welcome it? -- welcome the news. It
:01:30. > :01:36.is now up to Europe to sort out its own defence problems and it is up
:01:36. > :01:42.to Europe to survey all the Middle East - these are the messages that
:01:42. > :01:46.are being delivered. Absolutely, they need to spend more money on
:01:46. > :01:53.defence, and I think France and the United Kingdom will be pressuring
:01:53. > :01:58.the rest of Europe to spend more on defence. It is also recognition of
:01:58. > :02:04.the limits of the Imperial out reach of the United States and,
:02:04. > :02:14.finally, we got this recognition that they cannot do everything. --
:02:14. > :02:21.
:02:22. > :02:26.The lump in the US budget was huge, absolutely huge, the cost of these
:02:26. > :02:29.two wars. It is also interesting that America is playing at --
:02:29. > :02:33.paying attention to China and they have been doing interesting things
:02:33. > :02:39.in the developing world. They are quietly but, little by little, it
:02:39. > :02:48.is creating its own little empire. The amount of investment in Latin
:02:48. > :02:52.America is huge. In Africa now, China is the IMF. They gave a big
:02:52. > :03:02.loan to the Angolan government. That was after they project the IMF
:03:02. > :03:07.
:03:07. > :03:14.They continued investing in Angola, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Nigeria and so
:03:14. > :03:23.on. The United States recognise that - when they talk about the
:03:23. > :03:33.Pacific, they be leaning China. They mean business. -- they mean
:03:33. > :03:37.Do you think it is good news for the Middle East, in general?
:03:37. > :03:41.Perhaps not the Israeli-Palestinian problem, at the core of it, but you
:03:41. > :03:45.think many Arab countries will think this is a good idea? The
:03:45. > :03:51.people will think it is a good idea, not necessarily governments. You
:03:51. > :03:56.must distinguish between the two. By and large, I think they are good
:03:56. > :04:04.things in a way. It is an admission of failure, at the same time, that
:04:04. > :04:09.you cannot intervene in every corner of the world. The failure in
:04:09. > :04:19.Iraq, some people have called its success. The UN completed business
:04:19. > :04:27.
:04:27. > :04:33.in Afghanistan, as well. -- the America still remains the most
:04:33. > :04:41.powerful country on earth. One significant element is its ability
:04:41. > :04:46.to intervene. That is still there, it is untouched. The 12 carriers
:04:46. > :04:56.are still there. Nothing will change on that level. There are
:04:56. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:13.changes on the ground but no change Most Americans, I am sure, would
:05:13. > :05:21.not see that this was a failure. This cutback in military spending
:05:21. > :05:28.is seen as a weakness. In the year of the election in America, this
:05:28. > :05:38.will be one of the key issues battled out until November. I agree
:05:38. > :05:39.
:05:39. > :05:42.with you when you say it is a new move. Americans are always changing
:05:42. > :05:46.their tactics and strategies according to the wind that is going
:05:46. > :05:50.through the world. In the 70s and 80s, they were dominant in the
:05:50. > :05:53.Caribbean, they were trying to keep the Russians out of Cuba but now
:05:53. > :05:57.they are not concerned about that. They are concerned about drug
:05:57. > :06:01.trafficking and so forth. You could call it a own admission of failure,
:06:01. > :06:06.but not as far as the Americans are concerned. We should not forget
:06:06. > :06:13.that. For Obama, in the year of election, this is not one of the
:06:13. > :06:19.best moves. I think Americans, because they are going through the
:06:19. > :06:26.economic crisis, many more of them are beginning to see that
:06:26. > :06:31.expenditure on defence was not wise in the economic situation. I do not
:06:31. > :06:37.think we should take Obama at his word. Iran is brewing. They want
:06:37. > :06:43.this thing to happen in Iran. That will not go away. It has become so
:06:43. > :06:47.normalise now that it is now only a question of when, not if. The focus
:06:47. > :06:51.on Iran has not gone. The other thing is that there is power and
:06:51. > :07:01.then there is power. I grew up during the Cold War in Africa. What
:07:01. > :07:08.America did then, which they should do again, is soft power. The
:07:08. > :07:14.Chinese are not bullying people. They had special influence. During
:07:14. > :07:22.the Cold War, both sides did that. The number of schools, bridges and
:07:22. > :07:28.so forth, they were like presents. A side that only used arms power,
:07:28. > :07:38.it lost that power. It has been easier to get military spending
:07:38. > :07:42.
:07:42. > :07:52.increased and foreign -- more than foreign aid. The United States, now
:07:52. > :07:57.
:07:57. > :08:05.they want to use the drone warfare so their boys and girls are not
:08:05. > :08:09.heard. They will intervene, but not on the ground. -- not hurt. They
:08:09. > :08:19.were involved in the Libyan conflict recently but not with
:08:19. > :08:27.
:08:27. > :08:34.It cost them trillions of dollars to get involved in Iraq and
:08:34. > :08:39.Afghanistan and now they have lost Libya. The lives that are lost our
:08:39. > :08:43.lives that are not counted. This is a big fantasy. This was the fantasy
:08:43. > :08:51.of the first Gulf War, that it was the virtual war without any
:08:51. > :08:56.casualties. The official speak of Iraq was that no-one was killed.
:08:56. > :09:01.How many wars can we fight like that? It is a surreal war if we
:09:01. > :09:05.think we can press a button... Technology has developed since the
:09:05. > :09:11.first Gulf War. If we are looking at interventions in the Middle East,
:09:11. > :09:21.even in Asia, it does not work like that. At some point Mackie will
:09:21. > :09:24.
:09:24. > :09:32.need to have Conventional forces doing the hard work. -- at some
:09:32. > :09:36.point, you will need to have conventional forces. Many Arab
:09:36. > :09:45.governments may be worried that the American government will use less
:09:45. > :09:49.influence, particularly in the question of Iran. There are a
:09:49. > :09:59.number of governments concerned about developments in Iran. The
:09:59. > :10:00.
:10:00. > :10:10.American presence would remain despite the cuts. The fleets is
:10:10. > :10:14.
:10:14. > :10:20.that there, their bases are still there. -- are still there. Israel
:10:20. > :10:25.slip at rest. They do not worry at all. Whatever happened to the
:10:25. > :10:31.defensive strategy in the US... Israel will always be guaranteed
:10:31. > :10:37.protection and everything. Also, the interest of the West and the US
:10:37. > :10:43.in the region will continue to be protected, despite these cuts. The
:10:43. > :10:50.murder of Stephen Lawrence in London almost 20 years ago finally
:10:50. > :10:59.saw the conviction of two white racists. How has Britain changed
:10:59. > :11:03.since Stephen Lawrence's murder? Bernard Burrell, I know you
:11:03. > :11:10.reported and studied on this quite a lot. How do you think this has,
:11:10. > :11:15.finally come impacted Britain? We do not have the time to go into
:11:16. > :11:20.orbit. We need to look at these things in a wider context rather
:11:20. > :11:24.than looking at race Relations Development. Looking at it from a
:11:24. > :11:28.traditional point of view, looking up the law then as opposed to now,
:11:28. > :11:32.you would think that things have changed for the better,
:11:32. > :11:41.particularly in the double jeopardy move. In terms of Polly's
:11:41. > :11:49.competence, in looking at cases of this nature, I think it has changed.
:11:49. > :11:59.-- police competence. If you look at it from a point of view of
:11:59. > :12:01.
:12:01. > :12:11.community relations, there are so many ethnic groups in Britain, to
:12:11. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:41.boys is counterproductive. The world has changed since those guys
:12:41. > :12:41.
:12:41. > :12:46.committed that terrible murder. More stabbings that are now going
:12:46. > :12:56.on is not whites against blacks, it is black people against each other.
:12:56. > :12:59.Sorry to interrupt, but that becomes one of the areas where the
:13:00. > :13:06.police say, "We talked to many people in various black communities
:13:06. > :13:13.and they say we have to tackle this and we do it by targeting some
:13:13. > :13:19.young black males," and that caused us problems. There will always be
:13:19. > :13:25.an element of racism within the police force. That is a problem.
:13:25. > :13:33.What we need to focus on is, why is it that, for example, in some areas,
:13:33. > :13:43.police tend to go after more black people and stop-and-search? In some
:13:43. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:56.cases, they have legitimate reasons One of the most famous shopping
:13:56. > :14:00.streets and there was a stabbing over the Christmas period. Police
:14:00. > :14:06.do have justifiable reasons to stop some of these people because, sorry
:14:06. > :14:12.to say, a lot of them carried dangerous weapons.
:14:12. > :14:17.I disagree with an edge on one thing. I think we should be careful
:14:17. > :14:27.not to demonise an entire group. The majority of young black men do
:14:27. > :14:27.
:14:27. > :14:32.not do this. I have spoken to a lot of them since the riots. Their
:14:32. > :14:38.experience of the police is not good because there is an assumption
:14:38. > :14:45.they are all carrying weapons. The other group which is in the same
:14:45. > :14:53.situation is young Muslim men. The way they are treated by police
:14:53. > :15:00.because of terrorism and what we as a country allowed to happen. Men
:15:00. > :15:08.are incarcerated in our country for years without charge. We remember
:15:08. > :15:17.the shootings when the police shot at the house they were
:15:17. > :15:27.investigating. Things have not changed that much. Some things have
:15:27. > :15:32.changed,... I would not call it a celebration. I do think there is a
:15:32. > :15:41.disproportionate number of black youngsters on the streets with
:15:41. > :15:48.weapons. A disproportionate amount is not the majority. There has been
:15:48. > :15:57.progress and change. An important thing to bring to their discussion
:15:57. > :16:02.is perspective, a European perspective. I come from Portugal
:16:02. > :16:09.and race relations there are miles behind Britain, the level of
:16:09. > :16:15.discussion. We have shanty towns on the outskirts of lease on where
:16:15. > :16:25.Portuguese people with African Origin still live. -- the outskirts
:16:25. > :16:29.
:16:29. > :16:37.of the capital, Lisburn. We have continually failed generations of
:16:37. > :16:43.Portuguese people with African origin. No black or brown faces on
:16:43. > :16:50.television, in hospital or any public institution. Until the 1975
:16:50. > :16:58.we had an empire. We had quite a lot of Portuguese with different
:16:58. > :17:05.ethnic backgrounds. The level of discussions in Portugal are light
:17:05. > :17:11.years behind Britain. Sometimes we castigate the police in this
:17:11. > :17:19.country too far. I agree with you, because when you go to places like
:17:20. > :17:25.France... the way that police treat the local people. That is not the
:17:25. > :17:31.point. I am sorry. We are miles ahead of Europe. That does not mean
:17:31. > :17:36.we have to stop being critical. The trigger of the riots was the
:17:36. > :17:44.shooting of a mixed-race man. We were told lies by the police, that
:17:44. > :17:48.he was armed, Batty was something else. Please don't pretend that
:17:48. > :17:58.because we are not as bad as somewhere like France, we should
:17:58. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:08.not be looking at this. I give great credit to their parents,
:18:08. > :18:14.Neville and Doreen Lawrence, for continuing the fight. It was up to
:18:14. > :18:19.them to keep the case alive, not the society, not the police, not
:18:19. > :18:28.the justice system. It was the parents. And all the credit goes to
:18:28. > :18:33.them. They are an extremely good example in this society. It is
:18:33. > :18:40.regrettable that it was up to the family and not the authorities.
:18:40. > :18:45.Some in Egypt are now calling for the death penalty for Hosni Mubarak.
:18:45. > :18:55.What are the chances that the Zairean rebellion can succeed and
:18:55. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:05.that the Egyptian revolution can become stable? -- Syrian rebellion.
:19:05. > :19:12.The tragedy can be contained for a little while, maybe a year. Nobody
:19:12. > :19:15.seems to be saying that we will do something about it. Neither on the
:19:15. > :19:22.regional nor the international level. Let's do something better
:19:22. > :19:27.than nothing, which is sending a few observers from the Arab League,
:19:27. > :19:32.who are being curtailed continuously, obviously. You are
:19:32. > :19:37.from Syria. Are you saying it is not the fault of the Arab League
:19:37. > :19:47.that they can do so little? Many people are surprise that the Arab
:19:47. > :19:51.
:19:51. > :19:56.League does anything. I would not be surprised if, in a few months,
:19:56. > :20:02.we heard some voices from the Arab League calling for reconciliation
:20:02. > :20:07.with the regime. Do not be surprised, do not laugh about it.
:20:07. > :20:12.Nothing is happening on the ground unfortunately. But at the same time,
:20:12. > :20:20.that is going to happen. It is impossible for the regime to
:20:20. > :20:25.reconcile with its own people. is complicated because religious
:20:25. > :20:32.minorities are in fear of what will happen the day that Assad leaves.
:20:32. > :20:38.That the country well have a civil war. Similar fears for Coptic
:20:38. > :20:44.Christians in Egypt. Any time you hear anyone from the Christian
:20:44. > :20:51.minorities in Syria, they all talk about terrorism and the Ayatollah's
:20:51. > :21:01.taking over an Sharia law. This fear is helping Assad remain in
:21:01. > :21:02.
:21:03. > :21:09.power. Who is pushing the fear? We tend to forget, I hate the
:21:09. > :21:15.expression Arab Spring, I would collect a democratic revolution. It
:21:15. > :21:25.has only gained so much. Nothing happens overnight. If you look at
:21:25. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:34.what has happened in Morocco. Things will not change overnight.
:21:34. > :21:40.In these countries, there are elements within society who are
:21:40. > :21:47.bent on creating divisions. Syria has so many different groups. That
:21:47. > :21:51.is where the crux of the matter lies. Hardier get over that?
:21:51. > :21:56.ship taking any responsibility from this man and the army who are doing
:21:56. > :22:06.what they are doing to the Syrian people. These suicide bombers make
:22:06. > :22:07.
:22:07. > :22:15.no sense. Do you suspect it is being set up? Who is benefiting?
:22:15. > :22:25.Exactly. On not only that, it is in the interests of the regime to
:22:25. > :22:33.
:22:33. > :22:38.enhance the fear. Also, there is suspicion that the regime...
:22:38. > :22:43.demonstrating groups say it has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. They
:22:43. > :22:49.say it is the regime. The country has had many powerful Syrians
:22:49. > :22:55.living here in some style. I do not mean you. We are doing nothing
:22:55. > :23:02.about them. We did have a good policy of turning on those exiles
:23:02. > :23:11.who are part of the problem. We are leaving the Syrian exiles,
:23:11. > :23:17.especially those close to this family. Despots put the leaders in
:23:17. > :23:24.position. Those have been swept out and people are voting in other
:23:24. > :23:29.people. People complain about the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, but
:23:29. > :23:36.people vote for these people. They ask for democracy and a vote for
:23:36. > :23:42.these people. I was talking about power pulls Syrians living in
:23:42. > :23:48.Europe whose bank balances could be frozen, for a start. We have about
:23:48. > :23:56.two minutes left and I want to ask Bernard as a Jamaican: Is your
:23:56. > :24:02.country going to become a republic? This is something that has been
:24:02. > :24:08.going on in Jamaica and the wider Caribbean for some time. The Queen
:24:08. > :24:14.is in his 80s, their duties on his way out. Politicians always say
:24:14. > :24:19.things to please the people. If you ask the average day making what
:24:19. > :24:29.republicanism would mean to them, most of them would not know. -- the
:24:29. > :24:40.
:24:41. > :24:45.average John Aiken. Jamaica, person from Jamaica. I think Queen
:24:45. > :24:55.Elizabeth would ask: Quitting the date for next year? After my
:24:55. > :24:57.
:24:57. > :25:07.Jubilee? -- could you leave it for next year? Prince Harry is going to
:25:07. > :25:10.
:25:10. > :25:20.Jamaica in March. Will that saved the monarchy? They are talking over
:25:20. > :25:30.
:25:30. > :25:39.each other. We have never had a really decent Prime Minister. I
:25:39. > :25:45.know I will be slated for this. This has been said. This is a