:00:12. > :00:22.Criminal Court for crimes committed during the uprising. There will be
:00:22. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:27.a full news bulletin at one o'clock. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:27. > :00:31.London. The relationship between Britain and the United States - is
:00:31. > :00:34.it in any way special? Another week of tragedies in Afghanistan -
:00:34. > :00:39.should the timetable for withdrawal be speeded up? And another
:00:39. > :00:42.austerity budget in Britain next week. My guests today are Abdel
:00:42. > :00:50.Barri Atwan of Al Quds al Arabi, Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt, Janet
:00:50. > :00:53.Daley of the Sunday Telegraph and Greg Katz of the Associated Press.
:00:53. > :00:56.One of the rituals of British politics is for the Prime Minister
:00:56. > :00:59.to go to Washington and be told by an American president that a
:00:59. > :01:01.special relationship exists between the United States and the United
:01:01. > :01:04.Kingdom. The words were warm between Barack Obama and David
:01:04. > :01:06.Cameron this week, but what kind of transatlantic relationship now
:01:07. > :01:16.exists? And how does it fit in with Britain's other special
:01:17. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:23.relationship - with the European Union? Why did so that Barack Obama
:01:23. > :01:29.makes such a big fuss this week? thought it was a lot of us a lot of
:01:29. > :01:34.pomp and circumstance, up the trip to the basketball and the trip in
:01:34. > :01:39.air Force One. It was a good way to draw attention away from a horrible
:01:39. > :01:45.events in Afghanistan and the deterioration in Syria. It was a
:01:45. > :01:51.feel-good meeting ant the weather was beautiful. Washington is
:01:52. > :01:57.gorgeous at this time of year. David Cameron office enjoyed it.
:01:57. > :02:02.Clear Telegraph described term as looking like a little child getting
:02:02. > :02:07.ice-cream. A Barack Obama is entering what is a very close
:02:07. > :02:16.election. This is a very upbeat event, but it did not capture
:02:16. > :02:26.America's attention like it did here. Then the need they need
:02:26. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:31.British people took the set on the White House lawn every now and then.
:02:31. > :02:39.As like a more cynical interpretation. I wonder what
:02:39. > :02:44.Barack Obama wants from Cameron. There has to be something. This was
:02:44. > :02:48.sold bizarrely effusive on both sides. The speeches and the toast
:02:48. > :02:52.of are made at a state dinner were almost on readable. You wondered
:02:52. > :02:58.what on earth was going on. Cameron gets to parade it around the world
:02:58. > :03:02.stage almost unnoticed by the American public. I never heard the
:03:02. > :03:10.term special relationship in America, it is completely unknown
:03:10. > :03:13.to Americans. Diplomats always say it, please do not say of the
:03:13. > :03:21.special relationship, police say it out special relationship. Why was
:03:22. > :03:25.Barack Obama laying it on so heavily? He is a notoriously
:03:25. > :03:30.unfriendly President towards the British. There are rumours that
:03:30. > :03:35.because of his Kenyan ancestry, he has reasons to a cheese roll. He
:03:35. > :03:45.has never been remarkably friendly. He was positively insulting to
:03:45. > :03:48.Gordon Brown. Why this sudden lavish show of attention? The
:03:48. > :03:58.suspicion maybe that America is planning to do something serious
:03:58. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:04.about Iran. Big yes. They may be about to do something about Iran
:04:04. > :04:12.and the need Britain stands by them at the United Nations. So this is
:04:12. > :04:15.the multilateral approach to Iran. I do not know what is so special in
:04:15. > :04:20.this special relationship, what Britain is gaining out of the
:04:20. > :04:26.special relationship? Defeat in Afghanistan, defeat in Iraq and are
:04:26. > :04:32.coming defeat may be in Iran. What kind of special relationship? It is
:04:32. > :04:35.a relation between and the master and the little follow-up. But the
:04:35. > :04:40.little follow were would get intelligence sharing, and a clear
:04:40. > :04:45.relationship and they have a different relationship from Mr
:04:45. > :04:49.Starr cosy. Intelligence is important. It is not for the sake
:04:49. > :04:53.of the British people, not for the sake of the people killed in
:04:53. > :04:57.Afghanistan, killed in Iraq. Not for the sake of British people who
:04:57. > :05:03.will be killed if Americans go ahead with their plans to bomb that
:05:04. > :05:11.Iran and to neutralise its nuclear facilities. Do you think it is
:05:11. > :05:14.about Iran? Yes, I think it is about Iran. The Defence Minister of
:05:14. > :05:19.the United States said his real could bomb Iran between April and
:05:19. > :05:24.June. Barack Obama is trying to stop Israel from bombing Iran at
:05:24. > :05:29.least for a few months. Britain does get something else. Britain
:05:29. > :05:33.also regards Iran as a serious threat to its national security.
:05:33. > :05:43.Let's not debate whether that is accurate, but is certainly the case
:05:43. > :05:44.
:05:44. > :05:49.that the Foreign Office would feel that. One thing they have in common
:05:49. > :05:55.is that neither Barack Obama nor Cameron has a high opinion of the
:05:55. > :06:02.Israeli Prime Minister. Netanyahu is stronger in the United
:06:02. > :06:07.Nations than Barack Obama himself. It is not Palestine first, it is
:06:07. > :06:16.Iran first. Barack Obama is following suit. In his speech, he
:06:16. > :06:20.was bringing the is really, at the Jewish voters and say Iran is very
:06:20. > :06:25.dangerous, Israel's security is part of American security. Where do
:06:25. > :06:31.you come down on this? I agree with the Iranian angle on
:06:31. > :06:35.this. One thing Barack Obama cent that was largely overlooked that
:06:35. > :06:42.was that the window to solve the Iran crisis is closing, and that is
:06:42. > :06:51.a clear hint that he anticipates something major to happen. After
:06:51. > :06:56.the November election. Where they disagree it is set negative opinion
:06:56. > :07:04.of the special relationship. Barack Obama went further and called it in
:07:04. > :07:14.essential alliance, which was Gordon Brown trying to go from it
:07:14. > :07:22.on-target cordiale. They were lying into each other's pockets about the
:07:22. > :07:26.friendly relationship. Barack Obama is on better ground to refer to it
:07:26. > :07:30.as a special alliance. I mentioned the European because
:07:30. > :07:34.there is clearly a relationship between Britain and the EU, but
:07:34. > :07:39.from Germany's. If you, is it quite good for pro-European interlock
:07:39. > :07:42.which are to be built on it like this and the White House?
:07:42. > :07:46.The European Union is not in a position to criticise that
:07:46. > :07:51.relationship, because we need to get our own house in order. What
:07:51. > :07:58.kind of strategic alliances Britain have with Europe? The Channel
:07:58. > :08:02.Tunnel. Tourism and business. There is nothing as close to Europe as
:08:02. > :08:08.Britain has with America? Do you think that is a mistake? The
:08:08. > :08:13.tunnel, we all agree, is fantastic. The British close as to Americans?
:08:13. > :08:17.Have you noticed that that whenever there is a war, there is a trip by
:08:17. > :08:22.a British Prime Minister to Washington and there is a very warm
:08:22. > :08:26.talk about this special relationship. I was amazed when a
:08:26. > :08:32.statement saying that, they agreed that Britain and the United States
:08:32. > :08:36.could release the strategic oil reserves. It means they are
:08:36. > :08:41.preparing the ground for a war against Iran, which could be
:08:41. > :08:46.disastrous. Why are they going to release the oil reserve now it?
:08:46. > :08:51.think you're saying is through your particular focus of interest. The
:08:51. > :08:55.Anglo American relationship goes back a long way, and there is a
:08:55. > :08:59.common sense of democratic values that does not prevail in
:08:59. > :09:02.continental Europe. The understanding and appreciation of
:09:02. > :09:09.certain kinds of democratic institution among the English-
:09:09. > :09:13.speaking nations is very profound and it goes back a long way.
:09:13. > :09:18.The first thing we have to solve his eye to exit the Afghan war.
:09:18. > :09:28.We will come back to matter the second. Diesels share the analysis
:09:28. > :09:29.
:09:29. > :09:32.that Barack Obama is not a natural across the Atlantic? He is at home
:09:32. > :09:37.with the Pacific. His relationship with Europe has been, let's not
:09:37. > :09:41.bother with that too much. He has been stand-offish and formal
:09:41. > :09:49.and he does not look to Paris and Berlin for inspiration or for
:09:49. > :09:54.history, he looks elsewhere. This thing with Cameron was a makeshift,
:09:54. > :09:57.it did not have strategic meaning. I do not think it means an attack
:09:58. > :10:00.on Iran is imminent. The idea that a president would launch a war
:10:00. > :10:06.before a General Election is senseless, because other elements
:10:06. > :10:12.are going his way in terms of the economy and so larceny wants to do
:10:12. > :10:16.is to plunge the world into chaos. An American soldier killing Afghan
:10:16. > :10:18.civilians - deliberately, or so we are told - comes on top of stories
:10:18. > :10:21.about American service personnel destroying copies of the Koran. As
:10:21. > :10:26.we discussed last week after the deaths of six British soldiers -
:10:26. > :10:34.what really is the point of western forces in Afghanistan? You have
:10:34. > :10:37.never seen the point of them. hope the actually ended this for a
:10:37. > :10:42.long time ago. I thought they should pull-out from South than
:10:42. > :10:47.Stan as soon as possible to save lives, the lives of up understand
:10:47. > :10:55.people and the lives of British soldiers. We can see it, it is
:10:55. > :11:01.written on the wall. That damage is going to be a inflicted on the
:11:01. > :11:05.relations between it Muslim world and Western worlds. For this man to
:11:05. > :11:09.goal, to leave as well armed camp and go to the village and shoot to
:11:09. > :11:15.kill 16 people, nine of them children and then burn their
:11:15. > :11:20.corpses. Before that, me say it is an individual case. It is not
:11:20. > :11:23.individual. When the urinated on the bodies of the Taliban, of any
:11:23. > :11:30.burnt the car ran. Have you ever seen a Muslim burning a Bible? Have
:11:30. > :11:37.you seen a Muslim unit on the dead bodies of Americans are British?
:11:37. > :11:43.This is the problem, the dehumanisation of others.
:11:43. > :11:48.Well there have been attacks like 9/11. But we have seen a sink
:11:48. > :11:54.crimes committed in this will countries.
:11:54. > :12:02.So far, no Western pilots have flown planes into buildings. It is
:12:02. > :12:08.absurd to talk about that. They have flown planes to kill innocent
:12:08. > :12:13.people. A lot of innocent people were killed in 9/11 and b July 7th
:12:13. > :12:19.bombings here. The point about the Afghan war is as a lot of people
:12:19. > :12:23.drop parallels with the Vietnam war or in America and here and that is
:12:23. > :12:27.an unfortunate parallel to be drawn, in the sense that their ball down
:12:27. > :12:31.in what seems to be an unwinnable fight. That is the only parallel.
:12:31. > :12:35.In Vietnam, the Americans had gone in unforgivably to try to prevent
:12:35. > :12:45.the outcome of went democratic election which they did not like.
:12:45. > :12:52.If they withdraw with -- from Afghanistan they're going to air
:12:52. > :12:57.Greek civil war. The question is whether we should get out now. In
:12:57. > :13:03.Germany, the top is, what are we Germans doing risking our lives and
:13:03. > :13:07.propping up a very corrupt regime? It is all very well to talk after
:13:07. > :13:13.the event to find out that at is an unwinnable scenario. They agreed
:13:13. > :13:18.with the NATO force to going there and stave off worst deterioration.
:13:18. > :13:24.We hope after the exit that we have managed to avoid chaos. There is no
:13:24. > :13:28.aim left other than avoiding chaos, avoiding civil war. Whether we are
:13:28. > :13:32.able to do that is another matter. The Germans should not complain
:13:32. > :13:36.about being there. We agreed voluntarily to help out near fit,
:13:36. > :13:41.so that America is not seen to be alone, depending on Britain. We
:13:41. > :13:50.have to sort this out together, we should not scramble for the exit.
:13:50. > :13:56.That will only give succour to the Everybody agreed to do it because
:13:56. > :14:00.Al-Queda was -- the Taliban was a cover for are collider. There are
:14:00. > :14:04.those who think that the war in Afghanistan would be winnable if it
:14:04. > :14:09.it were not for Iraq. Others think it when they ever have been
:14:09. > :14:14.winnable. It does not seem winnable now. There is no way you can put a
:14:15. > :14:19.pleasant face on it. These killings were particularly represent a bog
:14:19. > :14:23.and will have a lasting effect. When President Karzai it is talking
:14:23. > :14:27.about confining Americans far base, it will be hard for Obama to say we
:14:27. > :14:32.are winning this thing while the Americans are despised on the
:14:32. > :14:39.ground. It is a disaster for all concerned. There are no talks with
:14:39. > :14:43.the Taliban, I there, apparently. They everything is off. Were it to
:14:43. > :14:47.end right now, Americans would be remembered as cold-blooded killers.
:14:47. > :14:53.It is hard to find a middle of the road. This was a Obama's choice
:14:53. > :15:03.when he came in. He did a six-month review and decided to continue the
:15:03. > :15:04.
:15:05. > :15:08.war. It was his war. His rationale was, the attacks of 911 came from
:15:08. > :15:17.bases in Afghanistan so there was a legitimacy to that or which there
:15:17. > :15:27.never was in a rock -- the attacks of 9/11. It was occupation -- there
:15:27. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:31.never was in Iraq. 3000 people were killed on 11 / 7. That was
:15:31. > :15:37.unforgivable and forget it -- unforgettable. But 100,000 people
:15:37. > :15:42.have been killed in Afghanistan. A million people killed in Iraq. What
:15:42. > :15:47.kind of revenge is this? What kind of mentality is this? For the sake
:15:47. > :15:51.of taking revenge for 3000 people, you kill a million. You do have to
:15:51. > :15:58.remember that when Americans came into Kabul originally, people were
:15:58. > :16:03.cheering them in the streets. There were a lot of Afghans delighted to
:16:04. > :16:12.get rid of the extremely oppressive Taliban regime. But the oppressive
:16:12. > :16:15.regime now has embassies in Qatar and Saudi Arabia in order to
:16:15. > :16:22.facilitate negotiation between the Taliban and the United States.
:16:22. > :16:26.After 10 years of cheering American troops, now the Americans are
:16:26. > :16:32.trying to install the Taliban again in power. They are Taliban and
:16:32. > :16:36.Taliban. They are the same Taliban. R Claydon are still in Afghanistan
:16:36. > :16:42.and active. What did we achieve after 10 years of bombing? Can I
:16:42. > :16:47.draw on your expertise? The basis of the war was to destroy the
:16:47. > :16:53.Taliban, am I right in thinking that the centre of gravity of the
:16:53. > :17:00.Taliban is no longer there? There are Taliban elements... Surrey, at
:17:00. > :17:06.the centre of Al-Queda is no longer there. The problem is, when this
:17:06. > :17:15.was started, there was one address of a play death. The third cave on
:17:15. > :17:25.the left. Now you have... -- there was one address for Al-Queda. Now
:17:25. > :17:26.
:17:26. > :17:33.it is in Yemen, and other places. A grey day in Iraq, -- Al-Queda in
:17:33. > :17:40.Iraq. The American invasion made a played it stronger. Do you agree?
:17:40. > :17:45.That is what we see before us. But when you eradicate a grey day in
:17:45. > :17:50.Afghanistan you will create a spawning effect and the ones who
:17:50. > :17:58.emigrate settle elsewhere -- when you eradicate Alpine leader. I
:17:58. > :18:04.disagree when you say it was revenge. It was not revenge, the
:18:04. > :18:10.motive. No, it wasn't. It was trying to get rid of the centre of
:18:10. > :18:15.evil, Al-Queda in Afghanistan. As you said, quite rightly, it has
:18:15. > :18:20.allowed them to spawn elsewhere. Whatever the motives, for those
:18:20. > :18:28.countries who have soldiers in Afghanistan, it must also be very
:18:28. > :18:35.difficult because the sense of a roll... Of course. -- the sense of
:18:35. > :18:38.morale. There is a strategic difficulty fog governments deciding
:18:38. > :18:42.to renounce a deadline whether to pull out because they are pulling
:18:42. > :18:48.the plug on what will be a civil war. Let us move on. In Britain,
:18:48. > :18:52.this is a good time to fill up your car and bike wine and cigarettes in
:18:52. > :18:57.the certain knowledge that these will go up in price after the
:18:57. > :19:01.Budget. Is the government austerity package working? Why are there not
:19:01. > :19:06.more jobs? Is now at eight times for higher taxes on the wealthy? I
:19:06. > :19:10.have never heard that such supposed information about a budget before
:19:10. > :19:16.it happens. We are awash with speculation. It used to beat that
:19:16. > :19:22.there was a time when all Treasury ministers were absolutely sworn to
:19:22. > :19:26.secrecy because the information they had could be market-sensitive
:19:26. > :19:30.and could create financial scares. Forget are all that. We are now in
:19:30. > :19:33.a coalition government where there are two parties are effectively
:19:33. > :19:37.briefing against one another. The Lib Dems are determined to make as
:19:37. > :19:41.much political capital out of the Budget as possible because they
:19:41. > :19:45.want to be the nice ones who brought in the raised income tax
:19:46. > :19:49.threshold for the low-paid and they want to be the ones who opposed all
:19:49. > :19:53.of the nasty things they claimed the Tories want to do. It is
:19:53. > :19:56.absolutely impossible to decide what is genuine and what is fiction.
:19:56. > :20:03.This is Alice in Wonderland. We have passed through the looking-
:20:03. > :20:09.glass. I use my favourite phrase, the budget is a riddle inside an
:20:10. > :20:19.enigma wrapped in a mystery. We have an idea about lowering the tax
:20:19. > :20:24.burden from 50p to 40p... 45p. evidence available does not talk to
:20:24. > :20:28.continuing with the 50 pence rate. It has not been dented enough tax.
:20:28. > :20:34.What are the Liberals want in return it is talk about removal of
:20:34. > :20:37.some of the tax breaks. The problem for all George Osborne up his we
:20:37. > :20:43.are still all in this together. Or are some people benefiting more
:20:43. > :20:50.than others? That is a hard thing to sell. I read about a mansion tax,
:20:50. > :20:55.a tight in tax... A busy, you will be playing that. -- a tycoon tax.
:20:55. > :21:00.The why are the fat cats not contributing enough to save this
:21:01. > :21:07.country? Why do we not have taxes on mansions? When you look at the
:21:07. > :21:11.rich list, there are filthy rich people and. What are they going to
:21:11. > :21:16.do with the billions? Why don't they help the poor people of this
:21:16. > :21:21.country? They pay about 70% of all taxes. They are contributing a huge
:21:21. > :21:25.amount. The difficulty with penalising through wealth taxes,
:21:25. > :21:29.however repulsive they may seem, is that you actually lose the tax
:21:29. > :21:34.revenue they pay. I do not just mean through evasion because you
:21:34. > :21:39.actually reduce their income and reduce the amount of tax they pay.
:21:39. > :21:45.That is the whole that political tax policy has got us into. I must
:21:45. > :21:49.say, I cannot make head nor tail of it was up as a journalist, it is
:21:49. > :21:55.very weird. I would rather find out what the Drifters. Stock up on
:21:55. > :21:59.everything and wait for Wednesday. -- what the truth is. Part of it is
:21:59. > :22:06.to do with the coalition government. We have still not got used to that.
:22:06. > :22:10.The sense of discipline they used to be, that has gone. Also, Nick
:22:10. > :22:17.Clegg was doing Prime Minister's Question Time with Cameron is in
:22:17. > :22:21.need States and the US ship went to zero. -- and the number of viewers
:22:21. > :22:26.went to zero. It still does not answer your question about why
:22:26. > :22:29.Britain is not producing jobs. That is the key question. You can put it
:22:29. > :22:39.down to the fact that manufacturing was reduced to such low levels that
:22:39. > :22:43.it cannot be improved overnight. Germany has a strong manufacturing
:22:43. > :22:52.sector. I was told last week that Volkswagen workers have been given
:22:52. > :22:55.a huge bonus because... They had the biggest profit increase last
:22:56. > :23:04.year was stuck absolutely mind- boggling. The car industry is
:23:04. > :23:11.actually recovering which I find a bit of an anomaly. So so is it is
:23:11. > :23:16.not going to save the economy. it is growing quite rapidly. That
:23:16. > :23:21.is because of the decline of the currency. And the euro area are
:23:21. > :23:24.buying again. That is going to help. But it is very slow. The general
:23:24. > :23:31.balance between the public and private sectors is completely
:23:31. > :23:36.disproportionate. The public sector does not produce wealth. What about
:23:36. > :23:44.alcohol and cigarette taxes? I am very happy for that. As a good
:23:44. > :23:52.Muslim, nothing to do with wine, a non-smoker. It would not affect me.
:23:52. > :23:55.So party-poopers. It all seems quite quaint now. It was always
:23:55. > :24:01.penny on his ear, it is Super sophisticated fiscal policy that we
:24:01. > :24:05.are talking about -- penny on a beer. This will have huge
:24:05. > :24:09.implications if the Chancellor is serious about changing public
:24:09. > :24:14.sector pay rates in poorer parts of the country so they are paid less
:24:14. > :24:20.in effect. Every political party for the last generation has wanted
:24:20. > :24:24.to get rid of national wage bargaining. It is crazy. If you are
:24:24. > :24:28.a teacher in it somewhere that is not particularly wealthy, you would
:24:28. > :24:36.not earn as much as a teacher doing the same job in London. The point
:24:36. > :24:41.is, it is very hard for the private sector to compete with the public
:24:41. > :24:44.sector. You cannot create jobs in these private sector in places
:24:44. > :24:49.where people are getting huge wagers relatively speaking in the
:24:49. > :24:54.public sector. Recent figures show that the reduction in public
:24:54. > :24:59.employment has been made up by at 45,000 gained through the private
:24:59. > :25:04.sector. Somewhere, the private sector is gaining. But they still
:25:04. > :25:07.could not compete on wages. What amazes me, you want to us revive
:25:07. > :25:13.the private sector, but it should not be on the account of poor
:25:13. > :25:19.people and poor areas. That is what amazes me. The poor have to survive.