:00:04. > :00:14.and his two colleagues. A fool news bulletin at 1pm. Now it
:00:14. > :00:32.
:00:32. > :00:39.Good afternoon. After it apparently taxing grannies, taxing hot snacks,
:00:39. > :00:43.wining and dining rich donors, is the Government out of touch?
:00:44. > :00:53.Are we on the brink of a function democracy in Burma?
:00:54. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:00.Should British schools teach the In the past week the British
:01:00. > :01:05.Government mac has told us that to fill our cars with petrol in case
:01:05. > :01:10.there was a strike has resulted in massive queues at petrol stations.
:01:10. > :01:19.They have also raised what has been called up a granny tax. They have
:01:19. > :01:22.also been caught out wining and dining which borders, -- wining and
:01:22. > :01:29.dining rich donors. Is the Government out of touch with
:01:29. > :01:39.ordinary people? They have had at that week. They could do with
:01:39. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:46.somebody like Alastair Campbell. The presentation is bad. They have
:01:46. > :01:51.been sustained by the wars in the Labour Party. That has not had a
:01:51. > :02:01.good week either. They had a disastrous performance in the
:02:01. > :02:01.
:02:01. > :02:05.Bradford by-election. There are big questions about whether Ed Miliband
:02:05. > :02:15.can survive through to the next election as Labour leader. Not a
:02:15. > :02:17.
:02:17. > :02:27.good week for either party. In the whole list of things, there is one
:02:27. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:32.important element which is not funny. That is money for access. We
:02:32. > :02:37.all know that Richard donors like to meet the rich and powerful. But
:02:37. > :02:44.the problem is if they have more influence than others, then the
:02:44. > :02:50.system needs reform. The question is how to go about that. It is not
:02:50. > :02:57.a Tory issue. It is for Labour as well. It is an entire political
:02:57. > :03:04.donation system that needs reform. To link all these things together -
:03:04. > :03:09.George Galloway's victory, he said that was a vote of no confidence in
:03:09. > :03:15.it been major parties. That is the implication is it not? Somehow
:03:15. > :03:22.politics has become a game of four people who do nothing else. There
:03:22. > :03:30.is the impression that you have to be rich to get into it. From my
:03:30. > :03:40.point of view it was a good week for the Tories. They are not like
:03:40. > :03:41.
:03:41. > :03:45.previous Tory cabinets. Previously you had Amex's of people. I would
:03:45. > :03:49.include Margaret Thatcher in that. This lot have no connection even
:03:49. > :03:54.with the rest of their party. They are born into a certain class. I
:03:54. > :04:00.thought that was quite a good week. I thought Ed Miliband did well. The
:04:00. > :04:09.public were revolted by the fact that they had no connection in
:04:09. > :04:13.their own heads with some of the policies. The George Galloway thing
:04:13. > :04:17.shows what should happen in an election. I do not like the man,
:04:17. > :04:27.but he had no public relations machinery, he did not have
:04:27. > :04:32.television. This man went on to the streets and arouse people as he
:04:32. > :04:38.does. That was an interesting lesson for all of them. Why do they
:04:38. > :04:46.need so much money? We should all support democracy. We support the
:04:46. > :04:51.royal family. We should support democracy. The argument against
:04:51. > :04:57.that is that at a time when the NHS and schools are being squeezed...
:04:57. > :05:06.Why do we not stop paying for the Royal Family? If we do not pay for
:05:06. > :05:16.democracy in our country, are we will not get a better system.
:05:16. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:23.this government back into power, every week has been at bad week.
:05:23. > :05:28.There was the phone hacking scandal. There was the Liam Fox scandal.
:05:28. > :05:31.There was the cash for honours scandal. I cannot remember all the
:05:31. > :05:37.scandals such as Government has been involved in. The latest one is
:05:37. > :05:42.the fat cats dining with the Prime Minister after the tax has been
:05:42. > :05:52.reduced. Meanwhile others have to pay more for their pension and
:05:52. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :06:05.their fast food. Their Government is advising people to fill petrol -
:06:05. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:10.- to fill a jerry cans with petrol. Imagine if the Argentinians said
:06:10. > :06:14.they were going to the Falklands next week. The entire British Army
:06:14. > :06:24.would leave Afghanistan and go to the South Atlantic. This is what is
:06:24. > :06:29.happening. The Government is becoming a laughing stock? Clearly
:06:29. > :06:38.the people of Bradford felt there should be a plague on the houses of
:06:38. > :06:45.all the major parties. Ed Miliband issued a list of people he had
:06:45. > :06:53.wined and dined. That included the leader of one of the major unions
:06:53. > :07:03.which has contributed to the Labour Party. Somebody commented that his
:07:03. > :07:04.
:07:04. > :07:10.union had given a �5 million to the Labour Party. That would buy a lot
:07:10. > :07:17.of fast food. But you have a spread with Labour. You have trade
:07:17. > :07:22.unionists. With David Cameron, he says this is his friends. He has no
:07:22. > :07:32.friends that are not part of the elite. The root and branch reform
:07:32. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:41.is needed. Party financing needs to be changed. I do not want to defend
:07:41. > :07:50.what they do. But you have to be even-handed. You have to be
:07:50. > :07:55.rational to some degree. The George Galloway phenomenon represents the
:07:55. > :07:58.wonderful things that can happen within democracy. It also
:07:59. > :08:06.demonstrates the power of personality. That can be
:08:06. > :08:12.problematic. Let us not forget we elect a government not for them to
:08:12. > :08:22.be close to the common man, or to have a huge personality, but to run
:08:22. > :08:23.
:08:23. > :08:33.the country well. I wonder the question about where is the Andes -
:08:33. > :08:39.
:08:39. > :08:43.- the Alastair Cameron figure is significant. Anybody would know
:08:43. > :08:53.that your tax fast food at your peril. The political antennae seems
:08:53. > :09:04.
:09:04. > :09:08.to have slipped off. Everybody could have seen it. They did not.
:09:08. > :09:14.The Government is so out of touch with the people. It is elementary.
:09:14. > :09:17.It is not to do with how it is presented. By saying that you fall
:09:17. > :09:23.into the trap is is all about presentation. The policies are
:09:23. > :09:27.wrong. I am suggesting that somebody like Alastair Campbell
:09:27. > :09:30.would have pointed out that if you leak all the good news before the
:09:30. > :09:34.Budget, the only thing the press can rhetoric on the day at the
:09:34. > :09:38.budget is the bad news. policies are wrong. It does not
:09:38. > :09:42.matter how it is presented. That is what has happened since the days of
:09:42. > :09:47.Tony Blair. All the focus is on tricking the public. Actually it is
:09:47. > :09:57.the policies we should be looking up. The policies were wrong.
:09:57. > :09:59.
:09:59. > :10:02.people do not accept the slogan that we are all in this together.
:10:02. > :10:12.This fuel crisis was not the finest hour of the British people are
:10:12. > :10:14.
:10:14. > :10:20.either. I am surprised they did not queue up for fast food! On the
:10:20. > :10:30.petrol question, that is a powerful argument that the Tories can use
:10:30. > :10:33.
:10:33. > :10:40.against Labour. It makes Ed Miliband position difficult. They
:10:40. > :10:46.are in a difficult position on this. Ministerial remarks about jerry
:10:46. > :10:50.cans were mistaken. But we cannot blame them for the one serious
:10:50. > :10:59.incident occurred. Pouring petrol in your kitchen into a glass jar
:10:59. > :11:02.when you have Albert stove is an unwise thing to do. The Government
:11:02. > :11:05.faced the possibility of a strike before Easter for which they would
:11:05. > :11:09.have been severely criticised. They wanted to try and blunt the
:11:09. > :11:16.possibility of that. To an extent they were effective in doing that.
:11:16. > :11:21.Once again the presentation of it was faulty. This weekend the people
:11:21. > :11:25.of Burma who have suffered so much will get the chance to vote in what
:11:25. > :11:35.they hope will be fair elections. How significant is this moment for
:11:35. > :11:36.
:11:36. > :11:44.Aung San Suu Kyi, and also for the people of Burma? The fact that they
:11:44. > :11:54.are having this election is in itself a triumph. It has come about
:11:54. > :11:58.
:11:58. > :12:03.after such a long and repression. It is wonderful. China now has its
:12:03. > :12:07.own that leadership handover to worry about. If it were not for
:12:07. > :12:17.that it would have been bigger news in China. Let us wait and see what
:12:17. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:23.happens tomorrow. In China because of their political handover, that
:12:23. > :12:30.is the biggest story in China. is the biggest political story. It
:12:30. > :12:34.is also an economic story. Most state-owned businesses have stopped
:12:34. > :12:39.taking orders. They are waiting to see who will be in power before
:12:39. > :12:49.they make the next move. It is a big deal for China. That is
:12:49. > :12:55.
:12:55. > :13:02.dominating the news. Burma being a rich -- Burma is resource which.
:13:02. > :13:12.Burma is important for China. Whatever happens tomorrow will be
:13:12. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:20.significant. You recently returned from Burma. We're getting reports
:13:20. > :13:29.that the process will not be fair. Aung San Suu Kyi has a difficult
:13:29. > :13:39.task. What is your judgement? are posters of Aung San Suu Kyi
:13:39. > :13:42.
:13:42. > :13:50.everywhere. There are T-shirts being sold in the streets. There is
:13:50. > :14:00.a movie about Aung San Suu Kyi which is being sold everywhere. All
:14:00. > :14:03.
:14:04. > :14:13.this was not possible up until last October. The old currency bore the
:14:14. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:20.picture of her father. This was illegal in the markets until a
:14:20. > :14:27.couple of months ago. There is an atmosphere of change. But there is
:14:27. > :14:37.something lurking under the surface. There is more than meets the eye.
:14:37. > :14:38.
:14:38. > :14:42.People are not sure that the elections will be genuine.
:14:42. > :14:47.Ironically the regime it wants Aung San Suu Kyi to be elected. They
:14:47. > :14:54.wanted as a fig leaf. They may even ask her to join the Government. She
:14:54. > :15:04.would not harm them. This is being done in addition to releasing
:15:04. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:17.political prisoners. This is being done as well as reducing censorship.
:15:17. > :15:20.They would give the political parties the possibility of
:15:21. > :15:28.participating in something similar to a by-election. Nothing more than
:15:28. > :15:38.that. Only seven % of seats in the Parliament are on offer. Short of a
:15:38. > :15:38.
:15:38. > :15:42.landslide, anything will be a She is the figure that we know and
:15:42. > :15:47.the West, but we know very little about Burma and the difficulties of
:15:47. > :15:51.staging an election. Yes, and in a way that might be the problem.
:15:51. > :15:56.House arrest, although she was very connected and she had a lot of
:15:56. > :16:00.world support, the country must have changed. I remember when she
:16:00. > :16:06.had never seen some of the technology we take for granted. She
:16:06. > :16:10.had to learn about it. The country changed show much in those years.
:16:10. > :16:15.An inner self -- the country changed so much in those years and
:16:15. > :16:20.in some ways, she has not. After the election, the popularity is
:16:20. > :16:23.still there, but I think that the world she is entering now as a
:16:23. > :16:29.politician will need a very different kind of person from the
:16:29. > :16:37.person that she is. I agree. One big question hangs over all this
:16:37. > :16:42.and that is her health. She does not look well. She is 66 years old
:16:42. > :16:46.and she has had an extraordinarily difficult life. She was treated,
:16:47. > :16:50.she had major surgery a few years ago. And she will obviously do well
:16:51. > :16:56.in the elections, but then she moves into a new era in her life
:16:56. > :16:59.where lamenting all that is wrong will no longer be enough. She will
:16:59. > :17:03.have to begin to propose solutions for a country which is
:17:03. > :17:11.astonishingly poor. I have not been there but I read that the per
:17:11. > :17:17.Capita income of 50 million people is $1,800. $1 a day. The Tass that
:17:17. > :17:21.lie ahead are enormous. -- of the tasks. This process is probably
:17:21. > :17:24.irreversible, and the military junta as probably realise that they
:17:24. > :17:28.have to change and that she has gone from being a liability to a
:17:28. > :17:33.potential asset. Many people are saying it is reversible but I am
:17:33. > :17:38.not sure. They were saying that about the Arab world. I see quite a
:17:38. > :17:43.lot of similarities between Egypt and Burma. Whatever happens, there
:17:43. > :17:48.is his background of power in the hands of the army. The search for
:17:48. > :17:52.democracy started before the Arab Spring. We have to emphasise that
:17:52. > :18:00.this exercise tomorrow is for one goal, two more lift the sanctions
:18:00. > :18:07.against the regime. -- Two Left. the sanctions serve any purpose?
:18:07. > :18:09.There is the possibility that the EU sanctions will be removed. How
:18:09. > :18:18.important is it for Burma, given that their biggest trading partner
:18:18. > :18:26.is China? Hugely, hugely important. The poverty level in Burma is so
:18:26. > :18:30.dramatic, they need economic engagement, which as I remember, 30
:18:30. > :18:36.years ago that was what saves the Chinese people. Sanctions, as we
:18:36. > :18:43.know, harm the people the most. Now we see movement in the political
:18:43. > :18:47.reform. I would very much like the section to be listed. -- the
:18:47. > :18:52.sanctions to be lifted. With economic engagement, there will be
:18:52. > :18:56.further opening up. Not to say that the process is irreversible, there
:18:56. > :19:03.will be ups and downs, but the direction that this country is
:19:03. > :19:07.moving towards is encouraging. power of the army not looming?
:19:07. > :19:11.power of the army is everywhere. We should emphasise the fact that the
:19:11. > :19:15.military is also divided on the issue of reforms and democracy as
:19:15. > :19:21.well as the opposition. Many opposition parties criticise and
:19:21. > :19:27.sang Suchi for not being tough enough or conservatory --
:19:27. > :19:31.conciliatory. -- on San Suchi. While we're talking, guerrilla
:19:32. > :19:39.warfare against the Burmese army is still going on, despite the fact
:19:39. > :19:44.that they have reached a agreement. It seems to me that the key role is
:19:44. > :19:48.played by China. The sanctions will be maintained by the United States,
:19:48. > :19:53.and perhaps should be, to make sure that the momentum towards a more or
:19:53. > :19:57.rut -- a more democratic society continues. There is an internal
:19:57. > :20:03.reason for the military to change which is that there is a grave
:20:03. > :20:09.discomfort among many Burmese about the over-reliance on China, the
:20:09. > :20:14.Irrawaddy, which they have now had to suspend, the dam, that have a
:20:14. > :20:17.lot to do with reservations about 90% of the power going to China.
:20:17. > :20:24.They want to open up because if they're going to relieve poverty in
:20:24. > :20:29.Burma, it is going to have to be done by drawing in foreign
:20:29. > :20:34.investment and free-market systems, to break up what has been a system
:20:34. > :20:37.overwhelmingly dependent on China. It is. The army is not benevolent
:20:37. > :20:42.by allowing this to take place. The country's bankrupt and they know
:20:42. > :20:46.that if they do not open up Burma for the outside world, lifting the
:20:46. > :20:52.sanctions by the European Union and others, they will not be able to
:20:52. > :20:55.survive. Even as an oppressive regime. Back home, or the
:20:56. > :21:00.Archbishop of Canterbury, shortly to leave his post, has suggested
:21:00. > :21:04.that British schools should teach children the Lord's Prayer after
:21:04. > :21:09.many -- a survey showed that many children did not understand a
:21:09. > :21:15.prayer. What is the place of religion in schools? None No place?
:21:15. > :21:20.I think our state has been so muddled. I think it was Jefferson
:21:20. > :21:24.who said, all that time ago, absolutely rightly, that state and
:21:24. > :21:27.religion have to be apart. They are important than they can influence
:21:27. > :21:32.each other, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse,
:21:32. > :21:37.but they have to be into next fears. We have been in such a muddle about
:21:37. > :21:44.it here. This archbishop, and I like him as a person, but he does
:21:44. > :21:49.have the most of mottled head. -- the most muddled head. First of all,
:21:49. > :21:51.all the other faiths will rise up in revolt, of course. I have no
:21:52. > :21:57.problems if they want to teach my child Christian prayers, but we
:21:57. > :22:03.should not be doing this in schools. I wonder why he waited so long,
:22:03. > :22:10.minutes before the end of this term. I am against teaching prayer at
:22:10. > :22:18.school. I am definitely in favour of teaching religion, but as a
:22:18. > :22:25.cultural thing. As a theology, to teach about Christianity and
:22:25. > :22:28.Buddhism and Judaism, definitely. However, we are witnessing a growth
:22:28. > :22:34.in faith schools and this will create segregation. If you want to
:22:34. > :22:38.teach her son a prayer, centre to Sunday school. -- teach you some.
:22:38. > :22:45.do not understand why religion should play such a big part in
:22:45. > :22:50.education. I agreed, if there is religious studies as a subject, yes,
:22:50. > :22:54.children can be taught not only of Christianity but other faiths as
:22:54. > :22:57.well. As a prospective, for looking at the world. I have her teachers
:22:57. > :23:02.saying that this is not to do with Christian belief but they have said
:23:03. > :23:09.that if you do not understand, you cannot read English literature.
:23:09. > :23:13.said? Teachers? I did eight years of English literature but I had
:23:13. > :23:16.never prayed the Lord's Prayer. That is not what I said. He said if
:23:16. > :23:20.you do not understand the tenants of Christianity, you cannot
:23:20. > :23:25.understand Shakespeare. But you can teach them about Christianity. Why
:23:25. > :23:29.do they have to pray that Lord's Prayer? I think first of all, that
:23:29. > :23:36.is unfair to the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has probably had
:23:36. > :23:42.the 10 most difficult years of any Archbishop, to deal with. It is a
:23:42. > :23:46.tough job. He said it requires the hide of a rhinoceros. He has had a
:23:46. > :23:53.tough week. He has struggled manfully to hold the Anglican
:23:53. > :23:56.Communion together. He is such an understanding man. He has not
:23:56. > :23:59.exceeded but he has not failed, which maybe his greatest
:23:59. > :24:03.achievement. They have not broken apart but on the question of
:24:03. > :24:07.schools, it is not so complicated. If you have a denominational school,
:24:07. > :24:12.it Church of England school or a Jewish school Lorimer's own school,
:24:12. > :24:19.surely teaching the elements of the Christian faith, the Muslim faith,
:24:19. > :24:22.the Jewish face, is respectable. -- the Jewish faith. If they have no
:24:22. > :24:28.denomination, if they're going to teach any religion, they should
:24:28. > :24:34.teach all religions as a matter of English -- matter of study. They
:24:34. > :24:37.said that all children should know the Lord's Prayer. And he is a very
:24:37. > :24:43.gentle and nice man and he was much buffeted. I completely agree with
:24:43. > :24:48.you but he has said some really barking things. Barking mad things.
:24:48. > :24:51.UN di can agree on that. To have all schools teaching children of
:24:51. > :24:58.the Lord's Prayer, if they are not going to teach the elements of the
:24:59. > :25:02.Koran and the Taarabt, and other religions, is unsupportable. -- you
:25:02. > :25:07.and I can agree on that. This increasingly multi- religious
:25:07. > :25:10.country will not support it. that the general consensus? Maybe
:25:10. > :25:13.he raised it now because he is relieved that finally he does not
:25:13. > :25:18.have to talk about whether women should be bishops or what the
:25:18. > :25:24.position of gay people should be within the Church? It is a very
:25:24. > :25:27.complicated intellect. Sometimes, like when he supported Sharia law,
:25:27. > :25:34.he supported Sharia law and in a very intellectual way he said that
:25:34. > :25:38.we must allow this in family law. I went berserk, as you can imagine.
:25:38. > :25:42.In the nicest possible way, with all the best intentions, he has
:25:42. > :25:48.said utterly the wrong this things. The maybe he meant that Sharia law
:25:48. > :25:53.should be studied in Christian schools. -- maybe he meant. He can