:00:28. > :00:33.Now on BBC News, it is time for Welcome to Dateline London. The
:00:33. > :00:37.British government considers even more domestic security measures.
:00:37. > :00:41.Possibly even conduct more trials in secret. Will it make us say for?
:00:41. > :00:44.It has been called the most dangers from mine in the world but are
:00:44. > :00:48.India and Pakistan on the road to better relations?
:00:48. > :00:51.And Mitt Romney breaks free of the others. What will the contest
:00:51. > :01:01.looked like for America and the rest of us?
:01:01. > :01:02.
:01:02. > :01:05.My guests today are a number of broadcasters and writers.
:01:05. > :01:09.Politicians in opposition have a tendency to talk about civil
:01:09. > :01:13.liberties. When they get to government, they tend to talk about
:01:13. > :01:17.security. The British government has talked about a number of
:01:17. > :01:21.legalised smoothing techniques and has been criticised by at the press.
:01:21. > :01:28.How much of a surveillance society do we need and thus the government
:01:28. > :01:33.again look out of touch with those who are instinctively conservative?
:01:33. > :01:40.What was this about? The attacks? No, just that we need more
:01:40. > :01:50.surveillance and be able to look through emails etc? I am bold
:01:50. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:57.enough to remember when the Labour Party, used to spew out laws. --
:01:57. > :02:01.old enough. We work very against that. Now we find that the party
:02:01. > :02:08.that the Telegraph and the Mail nominally support is doing exactly
:02:08. > :02:15.the same. We cannot stand it. It infuriates me because I remember at
:02:16. > :02:25.the time of the 40 today campaign, it was a human rights thing, I
:02:26. > :02:26.
:02:26. > :02:30.joined her campaign against it. Is it that the Tory party, at least
:02:30. > :02:37.the David Cameron wing of it, has a short memory? If they could
:02:37. > :02:43.remember that well over the Labour attempt, which they failed to do in
:02:44. > :02:46.suddenly, wouldn't somebody say, this is not a good idea? Is it that
:02:46. > :02:51.journalists tend to be instinctively against this kind of
:02:51. > :02:54.thing and civil servants tend to be for this kind of thing? And for
:02:54. > :03:02.whenever people get into government, they get captured by civil servants
:03:02. > :03:05.and are told it is a good idea? is like blackmail. Exactly. But the
:03:05. > :03:11.whole issue itself, I do not believe governments usually tell
:03:11. > :03:17.you what they want you to do in the future. I believe many people
:03:17. > :03:22.believe that they are doing it already. They are kind of testing
:03:22. > :03:28.the public in a way, how they will react. It is very interesting to
:03:28. > :03:35.notice the difference within the Coalition government about it. 17
:03:35. > :03:40.MPs just a few days ago wrote a letter in the Independent,
:03:41. > :03:48.threatening the Deputy Prime Minister to watch it. It is as if
:03:48. > :03:54.it is going to be legalised and passed... It might fail because the
:03:54. > :04:02.government might break itself. But the main point which I would like
:04:02. > :04:07.to make, usually governments say what they are going to do. We are
:04:07. > :04:11.familiar with previous governments to the politics of distraction. It
:04:11. > :04:15.was said by some, perhaps you, that every time Tony Blair got into
:04:15. > :04:25.trouble, he talked about fox- hunting. Is this a distraction
:04:25. > :04:25.
:04:25. > :04:34.technique? The talk about the pasty is disgusting. Increasing taxes on
:04:34. > :04:42.that. And then the great tax. That was embarrassing. -- granny
:04:42. > :04:48.tax. At least this is meant to be a serious issue but it is nonsense. I
:04:48. > :04:51.do not believe it is a distraction. You want to distract from the
:04:51. > :04:59.weakest government and at this on top, it is making the situation
:04:59. > :05:03.worse? The timing is awful. It is like playing with fire. So far,
:05:03. > :05:09.they have held public support for the coalition. Now Cameron is
:05:09. > :05:19.coming up with this. He has to make a public announcement. He cannot
:05:19. > :05:22.
:05:22. > :05:30.It has been legalised and so you have to come up with, is this the
:05:30. > :05:34.year to do so? The case is yet to be made. We need to be ahead of
:05:34. > :05:38.terrorists and so on. There are enough. We understand that. But
:05:38. > :05:46.until the inevitability of this measure has been proven or shown to
:05:46. > :05:52.be necessary, it is foolish to come out of this -- at this point in
:05:52. > :05:56.time. The BBC covered extensively this case about the man wanted in
:05:56. > :06:02.the US who may be extradited. He has been in jail for seven years
:06:02. > :06:07.without trial. Whatever the rights of the case, he may have run a
:06:07. > :06:11.website, it does seem that that is kind of self defeating. We like to
:06:11. > :06:15.think that if you have done something, you go on trial and you
:06:15. > :06:19.go to jail. But he did not stay in jail for seven years without
:06:19. > :06:26.somebody showing you that you have done something wrong. Clearly there
:06:27. > :06:31.has been rising resentment in this issue. The opposite not taking
:06:31. > :06:36.place, people going to trial. This element of weakness in British
:06:36. > :06:40.policy has disappointed a lot of Britons. But to come back to the
:06:40. > :06:45.point that we were making, I tend to expect toughness from the Tories
:06:45. > :06:52.when it comes to matters of security. When it comes to law and
:06:52. > :06:55.order. But the timing is astonishing. Incompetent.
:06:55. > :07:01.Absolutely. We have a situation where the Conservative popularity
:07:01. > :07:04.has plummeted after the cash for access story. You come up with
:07:04. > :07:10.something like this which is really daft. We have local elections
:07:10. > :07:15.coming up. A important ones. Yes. And the mayoral a relic -- the
:07:15. > :07:20.mayoral election. According to some polls, they are 10% behind. This is
:07:20. > :07:23.not time to introduce something like this. Another thing I find
:07:24. > :07:29.interesting is the Left always are seeing as the people who are very...
:07:29. > :07:35.Who believe the state is actually virtuous. They will accept an awful
:07:35. > :07:42.lot from the state. Interfering and so on. But the ride, particularly
:07:42. > :07:49.this government, is supposed to be big society - remember that phrase?
:07:49. > :07:54.-- the right. Trusting the people and not constantly interfering with
:07:54. > :08:02.their goings on. But the big society, I hope we never hear about
:08:02. > :08:05.that again. This is such a left- wing act. It has been noticeable
:08:05. > :08:09.that particularly in the last couple of weeks, the Tory press
:08:09. > :08:15.which has never been in love with David Cameron, has really gone for
:08:15. > :08:19.him. Yes and for good reason. We went for Labour when they started
:08:19. > :08:25.to try to bring in similar things. But in a sense, we told ourselves,
:08:25. > :08:33.this is what the left does. It likes to interfere to try to
:08:33. > :08:37.control things. The Tories are supposed to say, no, leave people
:08:38. > :08:45.alone. Trust in their common sense. But it is doing just what Labour
:08:45. > :08:55.was trying to do. And this nanny state suspicion, that they are
:08:55. > :09:00.
:09:00. > :09:05.rolling out this supervision. The idea that you have to put shutters
:09:05. > :09:10.in front of supermarkets. We are not ourselves again. There was
:09:10. > :09:17.airlifted to the Independent yesterday which talks about, I have
:09:17. > :09:23.been at it for 40 years, I have now been cured. -- been an addict. That
:09:23. > :09:27.is a message to take. They are saying that maybe the politicians
:09:27. > :09:32.should publish their tax returns. Is that something that will take
:09:32. > :09:36.on? That is an interesting one. is trying to put pressure on Labour
:09:36. > :09:40.leaders to do the same. I can understand tactically. But since
:09:40. > :09:46.the end of the Cold War, 23 years, the consent and demand for freedom
:09:46. > :09:51.World Wise has increased. Britain is no different. Of late, there has
:09:51. > :09:57.been this factor of terrorism. -- worldwide. But they have not made a
:09:57. > :10:04.strong enough case to snoop into everybody's emails in countering
:10:04. > :10:09.terrorism. But all of this, every bit of legislation, is always so
:10:09. > :10:15.that the drafted. The last bout of this from the Labour Party in 2008
:10:15. > :10:22.seemed to give rights to all sorts of jobs in various councils. It
:10:22. > :10:27.ended up, especially against terrorism, with ordinary taxpayers,
:10:27. > :10:33.council taxpayers, having microchips put into their dustbins.
:10:33. > :10:40.Catch them out if they put the wrong kind of thing in there. It is
:10:40. > :10:45.really not going to go away. It is not necessary. It is not only the
:10:45. > :10:50.timing that is bad but the whole issue itself is wrong. Do they
:10:50. > :10:57.think they will really fight terrorism through this kind of act?
:10:57. > :11:01.We have seen recently the case of Mohammad Amir, the Toulouse
:11:01. > :11:09.shooting. He was under surveillance for two years and they did nothing.
:11:09. > :11:13.They did not really stop it. moving on. Two great nations of the
:11:13. > :11:16.into an -- Indian sub-continent have gone to war with each other in
:11:16. > :11:20.the past. They looked like they were going to war on several
:11:20. > :11:22.occasions and pulled back at the last moment. They are now both
:11:22. > :11:26.nuclear powers. Some commentators see their potential for
:11:26. > :11:30.confrontation as one of the most dangers in the world. There are
:11:30. > :11:34.allegations of state-sponsored terrorism among other things. How
:11:34. > :11:38.far will the summit this weekend be a surprise and a relief? It is
:11:38. > :11:42.supposed to be just a lunch, sort of. But we are having the President
:11:42. > :11:52.of Pakistan on brewed elsewhere, going to India, to have lunch with
:11:52. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :11:56.the Prime Minister of India. -- en route. It is a big day for the
:11:56. > :12:05.President of Pakistan but what was called a visit to a famous shrine,
:12:05. > :12:09.a very popular shrine that goes down well with the Pakistani public,
:12:09. > :12:14.has actually turned out to be more official and more important than
:12:14. > :12:21.what was deemed to be the case originally. This was always the
:12:21. > :12:24.design. This lunch, which is going to be preceded by a one to one
:12:25. > :12:28.meeting between the two leaders where they will be no Aids, no
:12:28. > :12:32.takers, is very severe -- significant. A lot has been
:12:32. > :12:37.happening in the background in the last 20 months between the two
:12:38. > :12:42.countries. Already, Pakistan, after more than 15 years, has responded
:12:42. > :12:48.to India's proposals of granting each other most favoured nation
:12:48. > :12:52.status in terms of trade. That is something which has happened. Now,
:12:52. > :12:56.it is the political aspect, other aspects, the many problems that
:12:56. > :13:01.exist within the two countries which the two leaders, two
:13:01. > :13:05.governments, are trying to tackle. Diplomacy always works best if it
:13:05. > :13:09.is done quietly. That is what has been happening in the last 20
:13:10. > :13:15.months. There has been a steady build up to tomorrow when the two
:13:15. > :13:18.leaders need. The Prime Minister of Pakistan, the number two man as far
:13:18. > :13:22.as the Pakistani hierarchy is concerned, has met the Indian Prime
:13:22. > :13:27.Minister several times on the sidelines of international
:13:27. > :13:31.conferences. But now, there will be this in -- imported talk. I do not
:13:31. > :13:36.see the two countries resolving their main problem of Kashmir. But
:13:36. > :13:41.they could follow a formula which has worked for India and China,
:13:41. > :13:46.which is to put the matter on the back-burner, continued to discuss
:13:46. > :13:49.it, find a solution, while you get on with other aspects of the
:13:49. > :13:54.relationship. It has worked beautifully as far as India and
:13:54. > :13:59.China is concerned. They now have a trade turnover of $70 billion and
:13:59. > :14:05.that itself is historic. I suppose the important thing it is happening.
:14:05. > :14:10.Exactly. The rest of the world is watching this worrying trend but
:14:10. > :14:18.what -- between the two countries. Putting the Kashmir issue on the
:14:18. > :14:24.back-burner is important. The Mumbai attacks are still vivid in a
:14:24. > :14:29.memory. America must be watching with keen curiosity. The two
:14:29. > :14:33.regional powers will be a pillar of security if they are able to patch
:14:33. > :14:43.up their differences and combine in the fight against extremism. That
:14:43. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:58.We have any problem, the US, India to not trust the Pakistani. The
:14:58. > :15:08.military service intelligence and... If India is seen to be trusting
:15:08. > :15:09.
:15:09. > :15:16.them? Up to a point. The point is, no-one trusts and the Pakistan
:15:16. > :15:21.internationally because of the military, they're very rich, they
:15:21. > :15:29.do not trust them. The minutes of one of them makes a mistake, even
:15:29. > :15:35.in language, it will all go... is also true within Pakistan. You
:15:35. > :15:45.have a civilian government constantly looking over its soldier.
:15:45. > :15:49.
:15:49. > :15:56.-- shoulder. Absolutely. These two giant countries of the region, they
:15:56. > :16:04.are the main source of labour so there are keener interest that
:16:05. > :16:14.stability is to maintain in the region. The best thing they can do
:16:14. > :16:19.is upon talking. And they put complicated acute issues in the
:16:19. > :16:26.back burner but the question is, they need to continuously talk.
:16:26. > :16:34.When you stop talking, you just play the game according to Jerome
:16:34. > :16:42.interest, exclusively. They must be more. India is interest it in their
:16:43. > :16:51.neighbour. They must bring in their interest to bed, to acknowledge --
:16:51. > :16:57.admonished Pakistan. Perhaps encourage more than acknowledge. It
:16:57. > :17:03.is in India's interest to have a stable Pakistan. The key to
:17:03. > :17:08.tomorrow's meeting, if there is going to be any success, is the
:17:08. > :17:13.army in Pakistan. To what extent are they willing to less than their
:17:13. > :17:19.hardline stance towards India. There is an indication that because
:17:19. > :17:24.of Pakistan's internal problems, the problem that they have on the
:17:24. > :17:29.Western Front with Afghanistan, the army is willing to quieten the
:17:29. > :17:35.Eastern Front with Indian. There has never really been a threat from
:17:35. > :17:41.India. The best interests of India is a prosperous, stable Pakistan.
:17:41. > :17:46.India wants to get on with their economic development. It has
:17:46. > :17:56.realised that we are in a situation, on a fast track, emerging as a
:17:56. > :18:01.
:18:01. > :18:10.nation Das -- we need stability. is serious winning comes to the
:18:10. > :18:14.conflict. -- when it comes to conflict. There are those who say
:18:14. > :18:24.that the fact there are nuclear countries is actually stopping
:18:24. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:28.conflict. Obviously, Pakistan is where I was born. A was a bit
:18:28. > :18:38.nervous because of the nuclear, there are a lot of nutters in
:18:38. > :18:45.
:18:45. > :18:49.Pakistan. Everywhere,. They are obsessed with Kashmir. They have
:18:49. > :18:57.had three wars on it, for all together but three they were solely
:18:57. > :19:02.about Kashmir. I think the thing about having both powers with a
:19:02. > :19:09.nuclear capability, they can look over the edge of the abyss and say,
:19:09. > :19:18.look, we do not want the nutters in India or in our country to heighten
:19:18. > :19:27.the temperatures so much that some awful thing happen. Mitt Romney has
:19:27. > :19:33.yet to secured the nomination. But it seems to be coming to an end. Or
:19:33. > :19:42.we have no Americans on the panels but all of us have a stake in the
:19:42. > :19:48.contest. What do you make of it? covered the US for eight years.
:19:48. > :19:53.Those unending primaries, exciting to begin West but you cannot
:19:53. > :19:58.predict the end. Now, we have the presumed candidate on the
:19:58. > :20:06.Republican side. It has been over covered, he has not been really
:20:06. > :20:14.divine. Nobody knows what he has been up to her. A pencil sketch is
:20:14. > :20:19.what he was called by one of his own. If they're happy with a system
:20:19. > :20:22.that produces this sort of calibre, let them. It is not for me to
:20:23. > :20:29.condescend and tell them there is a better pool of talent available.
:20:29. > :20:37.But varies. America has not done too badly out of their President. A
:20:37. > :20:43.few weaklings. I think the Republicans have got the most... I
:20:43. > :20:51.had been covering on the ground at every election since Jimmy Carter,
:20:51. > :20:58.even before that is, anyway, at least you used to fill, a sense of
:20:58. > :21:04.hopeless but there are always at least four or five possibles. You
:21:04. > :21:08.had the tea-party people, you had these mad women, Sarah Palin and
:21:08. > :21:14.Michelle Buckman he really did not know there's something from their
:21:14. > :21:19.elbows and they drop down. Newt Gingrich who are covered a great
:21:19. > :21:24.deal, he brought America to a standstill because he wanted to
:21:24. > :21:32.shut down government. He has this wild ego. He obviously cannot run
:21:32. > :21:38.America. Mitt Romney, who does not excite anybody except possibly Mrs
:21:38. > :21:43.Rumney, they have five children... You cannot be sure. At American
:21:43. > :21:51.lady stop me and said that it has to be Mitt Romney because he has
:21:51. > :21:56.the best hair. It may be an analysis of sorts. His hair is
:21:56. > :22:02.rather splendid. What you think people will think of these compers
:22:02. > :22:08.- Barack Obama and Mick Romney, particularly in the Arab world?
:22:08. > :22:16.Appearance since be important in this Hollywood-style kind of
:22:16. > :22:22.campaign. As far as the Middle East is concerned, listening to the
:22:22. > :22:28.Republicans, all of them got Mick Romney said the first thing he will
:22:28. > :22:36.do is travel to Israel. Gingrich said there are no Palestinian
:22:36. > :22:44.people. They are invented people. I mean, that is pretty grim. At least
:22:44. > :22:47.Barack Obama is quite clear on that. It is quite understandable in the
:22:47. > :22:51.Middle East how he is under extreme pressure not being able to move
:22:51. > :22:56.ahead or at least to do what he promised that he was going to do.
:22:56. > :23:02.In that sense, I think people in the Middle East, especially in the
:23:02. > :23:10.Arab world, would be greatly relieved if she wins. I think all
:23:10. > :23:14.of us should be. The upcoming trial of my Harmon, and the other
:23:14. > :23:20.perpetrators in Guantanamo. It will be a major Storrar between now and
:23:20. > :23:28.election time. That will be at ute story. You have covered the US for
:23:28. > :23:32.many years. I have never seen so little interest in an American
:23:32. > :23:40.presidential election across Europe. There is interest in France, and
:23:40. > :23:47.Europe is obsessed with its our own problems. The primaries are just
:23:47. > :23:53.too long. At the end of it, we still do not have a resolved or a
:23:53. > :23:57.result which is a bit of rain on a result. Obviously, it seems that
:23:57. > :24:02.Mitt Romney is virtually in but at the same time, the longer it takes
:24:02. > :24:09.for the Republicans to officially confirm this, the more Barack Obama
:24:09. > :24:15.will be laughing. Considering how Barack Obama is best corrected all
:24:15. > :24:22.around the country, -- is seen across the country, once the
:24:22. > :24:28.Republican nutcases enter the race, his personal rating rose. That is
:24:28. > :24:35.because, you know, oh my goodness, at least we know who he is. Also
:24:35. > :24:41.the economy has been steadily improving. I think what ever we see
:24:41. > :24:46.around, the economy is going to decide. It always does. As long as
:24:46. > :24:51.unemployment is going down and employment going up. Europe losing
:24:51. > :24:58.interest is very important. We have future agendas to ten to, to solve
:24:58. > :25:02.problems, the future of the euro. That reduces the relevance of the