:00:06. > :00:16.going online or it through the red There will be a full bulletin at
:00:16. > :00:25.
:00:25. > :00:29.one o'clock. Now it is time for Welcome to Dateline London. The
:00:29. > :00:34.British Government wants to clobber people who avoid paying tax, but
:00:34. > :00:39.why is it hitting those who give to charities? The people of France
:00:39. > :00:43.prepare to choose their President. How big a deal is this for all of
:00:43. > :00:50.Europe? And is there really any chance of avoiding further
:00:50. > :00:55.bloodshed in the Syrian peace plan? My guests are Abdel Barri Atwan of
:00:56. > :01:00.Al Quds al Arabi, Agnes Poirier of Marianne and Stryker McGuire of
:01:00. > :01:04.Bloomberg Markets. When things went wrong within the Reagan
:01:04. > :01:08.administration, Ronald Reagan would sometimes joke it appeared that the
:01:09. > :01:13.right hand did not know what the far right hand was doing. In the
:01:13. > :01:17.Cameron Government, and attempts to crack down on the super-rich
:01:17. > :01:21.avoiding tax has ended up in a row about whether wealthy people who
:01:21. > :01:25.give large sums to charity should lose tax relief on their charitable
:01:25. > :01:30.donations. How could a government which wants more charitable giving
:01:30. > :01:38.give itself -- get itself into such a mess? There are worries there are
:01:38. > :01:44.too many things going wrong. have not had some huge tax impact
:01:44. > :01:49.on its ordinary families or any big disaster. Those have heart a little,
:01:49. > :01:54.but what has been striking, particularly in the right wing
:01:54. > :01:58.press, those have relished the opportunity to kick David Cameron.
:01:58. > :02:03.It is the same with Parliamentary backbenchers of his own party.
:02:03. > :02:07.There seems to be a distance between the Prime Minister, the
:02:07. > :02:12.leader of the Conservative Party, and his troops, which recent events
:02:12. > :02:18.have exposed. We can come back to that, but significantly about
:02:18. > :02:22.charitable donations. It seems odd people willing to give �2 million
:02:22. > :02:30.to charity, and the Government in favour of that, but losing tax
:02:30. > :02:35.relief. One thing clashing is the Big Society. The idea that social
:02:35. > :02:39.action rather than state action is how we knit together. The idea of
:02:39. > :02:44.discouraging people from philanthropy goes against that. One
:02:44. > :02:48.or other of the, particularly bridged by the that junior --
:02:48. > :02:53.particularly from the Liberal Democrats, is getting rich people
:02:54. > :02:59.who avoid tax. I think you should do that, but exempt charities.
:02:59. > :03:06.Including charities was the mistake. Some people think there are dodgy
:03:06. > :03:15.charities, but you should crack down on that. It is not quite as
:03:15. > :03:22.easy as that. People can give to charities within the European Union,
:03:22. > :03:29.but some countries not regulating charities as well. What about these
:03:30. > :03:38.small problems turning into big problems? It is a huge mistake.
:03:38. > :03:43.Talking about the Big Society, and last year talking about 10 billion
:03:43. > :03:49.people -- �10 billion paid to charities. People are responding to
:03:49. > :03:55.the Big Society, then suddenly, after the Government spent about
:03:55. > :04:00.dead -- about �10 million saying to give to charities, now they are
:04:00. > :04:10.taxing them. Then I look polls, but it is unbelievable. Do what America
:04:10. > :04:13.
:04:13. > :04:16.does. -- there are loopholes. Encourage people to donate. It the
:04:16. > :04:22.Government is not donating enough money to schools, hospitals,
:04:22. > :04:30.research, galleries, then suddenly do not want people to pay for that.
:04:30. > :04:39.What is the solution? To -- it is a stupid move. It is a public
:04:39. > :04:46.relations disaster. In France, we would consider the state's remit to
:04:46. > :04:51.give benefits. Philanthropy can be key here foreign things like the
:04:51. > :04:57.Royal Court in London, galleries, theatre, for example. And, of
:04:57. > :05:05.course, universities. British universities without donors? What
:05:05. > :05:11.could they do? After so many public relations disasters, it is another
:05:11. > :05:15.one. Such as the granny tax. Some people have been hurt by this, but
:05:15. > :05:22.not huge mistakes, but adding them together it looks like the
:05:22. > :05:26.Government does not have a grip on detail. Nobody would disagree there
:05:26. > :05:32.is incoherence here. A lot of incoherence, perhaps bad
:05:32. > :05:36.communication, maybe not explaining some things as well. The other
:05:36. > :05:42.thing that is going on is that there is a certain complacency
:05:42. > :05:48.about Number 10 that is kind of odd, as if there saying, we are not
:05:48. > :05:58.going to have an election for three years, let us not worry now. There
:05:58. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:02.seems to be a lack of response to the grassroots. I read in one of
:06:02. > :06:07.right wing newspaper today that David Cameron is not a real
:06:07. > :06:11.Conservative. Whether that is true or not, that is what is said, what
:06:11. > :06:17.millions of readers are reading. Not good news for the Prime
:06:17. > :06:26.Minister. That is nonsense. He is physically and socially
:06:26. > :06:30.conservative. But he is also a moderate. -- fiscally conservative.
:06:30. > :06:35.Labour dramatically increased the power of the state whilst the
:06:35. > :06:39.Conservatives were out of power. There was a hunger for more radical
:06:39. > :06:45.conservatism that the right wing wanted to deliver. But he cannot
:06:45. > :06:50.deliver that, because he did not win out right, he is in a coalition
:06:50. > :06:55.Government. It is difficult for David Cameron to manage. He has an
:06:55. > :07:03.audience that wants more than he can deliver. In terms of the
:07:03. > :07:10.electorate at large, you hear a lot of Conservatives say, we do not
:07:10. > :07:17.expect the people to love us, but respect us for competence. When you
:07:17. > :07:22.begin to not look competent, you are in trouble. British politics
:07:22. > :07:26.essentially is a battle between Labour, the party of a heart,
:07:26. > :07:33.looking after the poor, and the Conservatives, the party of the
:07:33. > :07:38.head. It is a huge simplification, but perhaps something truthful. If
:07:38. > :07:44.the Conservative Party is not the party of confidence, its main role
:07:44. > :07:51.as voters see it is taken away. Labour had done this, the
:07:51. > :08:00.Conservatives would be furious. They would ask, rich people have a
:08:00. > :08:08.heart, too, giving money to good causes. If Labour did that, they
:08:08. > :08:14.would be flopped in the parliament. And in right-wing newspapers, so it
:08:14. > :08:19.is amazing why the Conservatives commit these mistakes. Why the
:08:20. > :08:25.Government actually went that far. Taxing rich people? Yes, no
:08:25. > :08:30.question. But if you are not going to give tax relief when rich people
:08:30. > :08:38.pay to charity, why pay for those charities? The Tate Gallery, for
:08:38. > :08:43.example. We have elections for the Mayor of London, local elections,
:08:43. > :08:51.Scottish elections. Do you think there is such disillusionment with
:08:51. > :08:55.the three main parties, and we can discuss the various reasons, Labour
:08:55. > :09:00.such as not being a credible opposition, so the SNP could do
:09:00. > :09:06.well in Scotland. Perhaps the vote on the London Mayor will be based
:09:06. > :09:10.on personalities. This is a very interesting phenomenon. We are
:09:10. > :09:16.going to discuss French politics, but the Liberal Democrats have
:09:16. > :09:18.traditionally performed the role of protest politics. But the Liberal
:09:18. > :09:23.Democrats have joined the Establishment, joined the
:09:23. > :09:27.Government, so we have seen people vote for the SNP, the United
:09:27. > :09:34.Kingdom Independence Party on the right, and George Galloway recently
:09:34. > :09:44.in Bradford. It seems people want to walk all the main political
:09:44. > :09:44.
:09:44. > :09:50.parties in their eye. -- poke. sort that happened in Bradford what
:09:50. > :09:57.George Galloway. A total maverick to, lots of reasons why it happened,
:09:57. > :10:02.but one reason has to be that main parties have lost their allure.
:10:02. > :10:06.Let us discuss the French polls. When the French people to choose
:10:06. > :10:11.their next President in the first round next week, there is no
:10:11. > :10:14.shortage of visions to choose from. It could be a straight forward left
:10:15. > :10:21.right battle between President Sarkozy and Francois Hollande. What
:10:21. > :10:30.difference would it make if Nicolas Sarkozy was to lose? They will bob
:10:30. > :10:39.and I doubt in the wider world. But in Europe? -- year-old Bob and I
:10:39. > :10:49.doubt it will affect the wider The ones who have not made
:10:49. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :10:56.headlines have been Francois Hollande or Nicolas Sarkozy. We
:10:57. > :11:02.should talk about Marine Le Pen, the extreme right leader, with her
:11:02. > :11:09.father managing to get through to the second round in 2000 to this
:11:09. > :11:16.nation's dismay and shock. She is going down in the polls. Now a man
:11:16. > :11:25.nobody knows outside of France is the hard left to pit-bull, as the
:11:25. > :11:32.British media called him. He is rising and rising. And taking a lot
:11:32. > :11:36.of light out of others. Maybe this phenomenon is related to the two
:11:36. > :11:44.main candidates. President Sarkozy has moved to the right to solidify
:11:45. > :11:53.his base, taking some of the gut out of Marine Le Pen's campaign.
:11:53. > :11:59.And Francois Hollande has been dull? He still manages to knock
:11:59. > :12:05.replying, not responding to Nicolas Sarkozy's tack. In a way, he has
:12:05. > :12:11.been extremely coherent. I do not know whether coherence is dull,
:12:12. > :12:19.sometimes it is. Nobody is excited by Francois Hollande, he is not an
:12:19. > :12:28.goods or later. But he has been working on this or more than a year.
:12:28. > :12:38.-- good orator. Some people would say he is almost as dull as Mitt
:12:38. > :12:38.
:12:38. > :12:47.Romney. Who I understand speaks French. Will wider Europe will also
:12:47. > :12:52.look at this, as well as in Greece, and looking at Speen, -- Spain,
:12:53. > :12:57.saying that Europe is on it yet another round of a euro crisis.
:12:57. > :13:03.That is true. What I am not sure about is that, whatever happens in
:13:03. > :13:07.France, it will make a huge difference in Europe. Things sound
:13:07. > :13:15.different. Francois hollow and sounds like he will tax the heck
:13:15. > :13:25.out of everybody. -- Francois Hollande. And charitable donations
:13:25. > :13:31.might be affected. In the end,... Hiring and firing might be more
:13:31. > :13:39.socialist. But only marginally. France does not have much room for
:13:39. > :13:48.manoeuvre. Once bond yields that increasing, things have to stop.
:13:48. > :13:53.is a question of style between these two men. There could be some
:13:53. > :14:00.room for manoeuvring, but it is extremely tight. What do you make
:14:00. > :14:06.of it? My favourite line was from Francois Hollande, who said he was
:14:07. > :14:12.not dangerous. And the left wing gentleman that at this has mention
:14:12. > :14:17.said he was dangerous, trying to stir it up and be the firebrand.
:14:17. > :14:22.All of them it seemed quite dangerously complacent about the
:14:22. > :14:26.fact that Europe is in another euro-zone imposed hell-hole. We do
:14:26. > :14:30.not have a serious leader anywhere within the euro-zone willing to
:14:30. > :14:34.face that and the French elections are not going to solve the
:14:34. > :14:39.fundamental problem Europe faces. It seems to be more an election
:14:39. > :14:49.about continuity, because these two fringe candidates will not fall
:14:49. > :14:51.
:14:51. > :14:57.Underlying the French problem is the economic fundamentals. In Spain,
:14:57. > :15:02.the drop in the stock may occur -- market, unemployment, particularly
:15:02. > :15:07.youth unemployment, it is all happening again. It is happening
:15:07. > :15:11.again, but we have to look at have the social side of the French
:15:11. > :15:17.presidential campaign. I think Hollande is the only one he has
:15:17. > :15:24.grasped the core of the question, for the Government to spend money
:15:24. > :15:29.and to create jobs. If you manage to save the banks, you can also
:15:29. > :15:34.bail out the people for their problems. It is because we build
:15:34. > :15:40.and the banks we have no money left. You must have some money left for
:15:40. > :15:45.people. He wants to create jobs for teachers and policemen, he wants to
:15:45. > :15:52.improve the welfare system. He wants to settle in the colt
:15:52. > :15:58.immigrants. You can see there is human policy there. Sarkozy, he
:15:58. > :16:04.says we have too many immigrants and foreigners. He has forgotten,
:16:04. > :16:11.he is also an immigrant. This kind of rhetoric, Islam a phobia, saying
:16:11. > :16:21.we have a lot of Muslims. I do not like Marine Le Pen, but when she
:16:21. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:29.said to him, the Islamic radical groups are or organising, his
:16:29. > :16:37.intervention in Libya is responsible for that. The man who
:16:37. > :16:42.committed the massacre in it to lose as well. We need to wise men
:16:42. > :16:47.to get rid of these problems appear facing in Europe. The thing is, you
:16:47. > :16:53.also need honesty. You can print money, you can borrow more money,
:16:53. > :17:01.which would be impossible, you cannot create something from
:17:01. > :17:09.nothing. That is where we are. Hollande, he wants to raise the
:17:09. > :17:14.pension age again, to bring it back from 60. In the next 10 or 20 years,
:17:14. > :17:19.that will make a huge difference. You're saying this is the kind of
:17:19. > :17:25.thing the markets will notice. markets will notice, but the
:17:25. > :17:28.markets are just about money moving around the world. It does not move
:17:28. > :17:34.because somebody decides it should move from one place to the other,
:17:34. > :17:40.it moves because of the situation on the ground, realities. There are
:17:40. > :17:45.at these realities you have to face up to. Countries moving in the
:17:45. > :17:49.right direction, looking at how much money they save, but if they
:17:49. > :17:54.seek a Government elected in France starting to do a kind of thing you
:17:54. > :18:03.would like them to do, but adding to the impossible debts of France
:18:03. > :18:08.is already under, there would be a significant crisis in the eurozone.
:18:08. > :18:16.What they're looking for is a sign that France is truly an author and
:18:16. > :18:22.European economy or up the southern European economy.
:18:22. > :18:28.Hollande is a graduate in economy. But his style is more human and
:18:28. > :18:35.that is what the French want to see. It is a mood, it is a style, it is
:18:35. > :18:41.a personality. It is a referendum on personality.
:18:41. > :18:46.Francois Mitterrand managed to put give it a good example to France of
:18:46. > :18:51.political and economic stability. He created a huge respect for
:18:52. > :18:56.France will offer the world, but look what Sarkozy did to that.
:18:56. > :19:05.The would you like to tell us who Walwyn or would you like to move
:19:05. > :19:12.It all depends on the first round. Sarkozy is capable of anything,
:19:13. > :19:17.Hollande his office say the darling of the voters, but you never know.
:19:18. > :19:20.We will no doubt return to it again next week.
:19:21. > :19:23.The United Nations has been beset by difficulties when it comes to
:19:24. > :19:26.acting coherently on Syria - chief among them the reluctance of Russia
:19:27. > :19:29.and China to do anything which might further weaken the regime of
:19:30. > :19:33.Bashir al Assad. But with the attempts to implement a peace plan
:19:33. > :19:36.this week - are there any real reasons to be optimistic about an
:19:37. > :19:39.end to the bloodshed - and how far are Russia and China on the wrong
:19:39. > :19:42.side of history in their support for President Assad?
:19:42. > :19:47.Do you have any hope that we might be on the right road? Actually, I
:19:47. > :19:53.have a little hope. For the second day, the ceasefire is holding and
:19:53. > :19:57.that is a good sign. A very small number of people like killed and it
:19:57. > :20:05.seems the Syrian Government are very serious to implement the
:20:05. > :20:10.ceasefire. What is the alternative? It is a disaster. This is the last
:20:10. > :20:17.chance to save lives in Syria. It seems the Russians and Chinese are
:20:17. > :20:24.exerting influence on the Syrian Government. We have had enough of
:20:24. > :20:29.bloodshed, 9,000 or 10,000 people are killed, so now it is up to you.
:20:29. > :20:34.It seems that the alternative is Syria turning into a failed state,
:20:34. > :20:40.a radical organisation will establish power there, a sectarian
:20:40. > :20:45.civil war or, which could destabilise the whole region. The
:20:45. > :20:53.alternative is horrible and that is frightening. The other alternative
:20:53. > :21:03.is basically President Assad in power for work - how long? After
:21:03. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:08.that, what will happen after the ceasefire? These talks, both sides
:21:08. > :21:18.will put arguments, put their cars on the table and you could have
:21:18. > :21:23.proper reforms. That is possible. To play devil's advocate, if you
:21:23. > :21:29.are looking at it from President Assad's position. Even though
:21:29. > :21:33.people are demanding reforms, do you think the people he represents
:21:33. > :21:39.would be prepared to give much and we have reforms? He should, because
:21:39. > :21:46.you cannot rule or less than half of the population. It cannot be
:21:46. > :21:49.another North Korea, isolated and heated by his neighbours. They
:21:49. > :21:56.international community are of rejecting his regime. This is the
:21:56. > :22:02.chance for his people to set on the table and give serious reforms, not
:22:02. > :22:08.just cosmetic reforms as he is trying to do now. It has to be
:22:08. > :22:15.genuine, otherwise and would not have a united or its staple cereal.
:22:15. > :22:20.You have to remember that the Russians have to be responsible and
:22:20. > :22:28.say to President Assad, enough is enough, you cannot continue to kill
:22:28. > :22:33.you want people. You need serious of reforms and to talk to your
:22:33. > :22:38.opponents. I may have to agree for once with
:22:38. > :22:44.Nicolas Sarkozy, who said this morning that he does not believe in
:22:44. > :22:51.the peace process or the ceasefire. I am pessimistic, we have reports
:22:51. > :23:01.from the Syria, but we do not have journalists there any more. Russia
:23:01. > :23:02.
:23:02. > :23:07.and China, when will they stop? They are looking increasingly bad.
:23:07. > :23:17.They have leverage. Torquay as well, but the ball is really in the camp
:23:17. > :23:19.
:23:19. > :23:27.of Russia and China. It is down to them. Build they actually talk to
:23:27. > :23:35.each other, President Assad and the opposition? They hate each other.
:23:35. > :23:40.It has gone too far. You negotiate with yet enemies. Palestine and
:23:40. > :23:45.Israel hated each other, but they sat down at a table and talk to.
:23:45. > :23:49.Then they stopped talking. Normally, the obstacle in the Middle East is
:23:49. > :23:55.the United States. The United States is normally Bocking
:23:55. > :24:00.something from happening, but not end this case. 10,000 people are
:24:00. > :24:08.estimated to have died in this conflict and 1,000 died in the week
:24:08. > :24:15.before the ceasefire. Any respite from that is welcome, but I am with
:24:15. > :24:19.President Sarkozy in thinking this is dangerously close to being an
:24:19. > :24:27.institutional thing on protecting President Assad has said of
:24:27. > :24:32.producing a resolution. The international community did not
:24:32. > :24:37.know what to do for years and years in Bosnia, more killing went on and
:24:37. > :24:42.on despite the best efforts of people like coffee and. Syria is a
:24:42. > :24:47.completely different regime, now we have Russia and China saying, we do
:24:47. > :24:55.not want to be wrong-footed the way we were perceived in Libya. There
:24:55. > :25:00.is a huge amount of bitterness here. I believe, the only thing available,
:25:00. > :25:06.this Kofi Annan peace initiative, otherwise military intervention.
:25:06. > :25:12.Sarkozy would like to see military intervention. Now he is complaining
:25:12. > :25:18.he once took her up the radicalism which is building now. This is the
:25:18. > :25:24.question. Syria is different from Libya. It is different from any
:25:24. > :25:31.other country. It could be another Iraq. Can we afford another Iraq?
:25:31. > :25:35.Can we afford failed states and radical organisations having arms?