:00:28. > :00:30.Now on BBC News it is time for Welcome to Dateline London.
:00:30. > :00:35.Revelations about the relationship between Rupert Murdoch and the
:00:35. > :00:45.British Government. Double in it -- be done in a double dip recession,
:00:45. > :00:51.
:00:51. > :00:57.Spain in a mess, and France It was one of the more memorable
:00:57. > :01:01.pieces of political theatre, two one of the most powerful pieces in
:01:01. > :01:05.the world media the intake -- interrogated by a clever lawyer at
:01:05. > :01:09.the Leveson Inquiry. What was revealed about the clever
:01:09. > :01:13.relationship between the British media and the government reveals a
:01:13. > :01:17.profound sense of desperation for politicians to suck up to the
:01:17. > :01:21.Murdochs. How damaging is this for David Cameron's government and for
:01:21. > :01:26.politics generally? It was astonishing. If it was pretty
:01:26. > :01:30.amazing. Murdoch was so interesting in a way because he is an
:01:30. > :01:35.extraordinary businessman, and you had moments of great shrewdness and
:01:35. > :01:41.lucidity, and candour, he was also very funny, you could see why a lot
:01:41. > :01:44.of people made him, -- like him. But at the same time you thought
:01:44. > :01:54.that he was deceiving himself or trying to pull it ball over our
:01:54. > :01:59.eyes. I have never asked the Prime Minister for a favour, he does not
:01:59. > :02:04.need to. And then he had moments of red mist. What I really deplore is
:02:04. > :02:09.the low state of public education in Britain and the US. The headline
:02:09. > :02:12.on his favourite newspapers, he loves the Sun, he loves the
:02:12. > :02:22.newspapers, he did you still love the News of the World but that is
:02:22. > :02:26.
:02:26. > :02:31.one of these ex-wives now. Who are you kidding, Rupert? I am still not
:02:31. > :02:37.sure who he is kidding, himself or the rest. It was very entertaining
:02:37. > :02:42.if it did not make you cry. It was not Rupert Murdoch, that was very
:02:42. > :02:47.entertaining, but he did what you would expect him to do. It was the
:02:47. > :02:54.craven nature of the politicians which was even more unsuspecting.
:02:54. > :03:04.Have you ever been to France? You have exactly the same. It is very
:03:04. > :03:06.
:03:06. > :03:10.difficult to sell the story. It is a complicated story. I found a
:03:10. > :03:17.Frenchman who was at the centre of the Murdoch empire and played a
:03:17. > :03:22.very big role in the BSkyB takeover. What fascinated me about this
:03:22. > :03:26.Frenchmen, and about the genius of Rupert Murdoch, is that he is a
:03:26. > :03:36.left-wing Frenchman. He is they might on the left and he became the
:03:36. > :03:38.
:03:38. > :03:45.main Murdoch propaganda %. -- person. He did a marvellous job the
:03:45. > :03:55.Murdoch. That shows that Murdoch is managing to attract left-wing
:03:55. > :04:04.
:04:04. > :04:10.people. Why he did not call me back. I would swear by his left-wing
:04:10. > :04:20.credentials. It is not so much left wing as a Third Way. They are so
:04:20. > :04:22.
:04:23. > :04:26.much more and deviant about things. -- ambivalent. The interesting
:04:26. > :04:33.thing about this circus, as Michael said, this incredible circus, is
:04:33. > :04:37.the amount of influence that these moguls claim. They do not know what
:04:37. > :04:42.is going on in their companies. It is to start believable. How can
:04:42. > :04:46.they not know what incredible investigations, police
:04:46. > :04:50.investigations, go on in there? The amount of e-mails they do not read,
:04:50. > :04:55.the amount of court rulings that they do not read, that is
:04:55. > :05:05.astonishing. That is what they pay staff bought. Even highly-paid
:05:05. > :05:09.
:05:09. > :05:15.senior executives, they get it lots of useless emails. I do not get
:05:15. > :05:19.inside the room. I got to the courtyard of the High Court. It was
:05:19. > :05:24.high drama. He does believe what he says. He has no self-awareness
:05:24. > :05:28.whatsoever. I remember seeing him interviewed, and he was talking
:05:28. > :05:32.about building this business from scratch, and he did it all off his
:05:32. > :05:35.own back, and then I read a biography and I found out that his
:05:35. > :05:38.father was the most famous Australian journalist of the last
:05:38. > :05:43.century, and that all of his father's connections came to him
:05:43. > :05:46.when he came down from Oxford, educated at the heart of the
:05:46. > :05:52.British establishment, and yet he honestly believes that he is a
:05:52. > :05:57.self-made man. I was astonished that Max Mosley, who dare to sue
:05:57. > :06:07.the News of the World, and to one, he sent Murdoch a letter after he
:06:07. > :06:08.
:06:08. > :06:11.won his court case, and Rupert Murdoch did not read it.
:06:11. > :06:15.There is a long run it and potential scandal for the culture
:06:15. > :06:19.secretary over who did what, who said what and whether he was
:06:19. > :06:28.independent enough in the quiet side judicial proceedings about the
:06:28. > :06:32.takeover bid for BSkyB. -- quasi- judicial. That is going to continue.
:06:32. > :06:36.There are plenty of people like Jeremy Hunt. Everybody in British
:06:36. > :06:40.politics has paid court to Murdoch. That turns out to include
:06:40. > :06:44.collateral damage. Alex Salmond, the first minister of Scotland, he
:06:44. > :06:48.got caught up in to this week and he did not like it. But he was
:06:48. > :06:58.doing it for Scottish jobs. course, they are all equally
:06:58. > :07:00.
:07:00. > :07:08.tainted. He will sell the paper and he will go back to America where he
:07:08. > :07:13.is very good on satellite and on radio. It has become a spectator
:07:13. > :07:17.sport. All the Guardian's excellent work in uncovering the phone
:07:17. > :07:21.hacking scandal. It is in danger of being overshadowed by the sheer
:07:21. > :07:25.drama of we have got the murder ofs, we have brought them in the public
:07:25. > :07:30.arena, they get their ritual caning and they go back to America where
:07:30. > :07:35.they make tons of money. Maybe the FBI is uncovering something, but
:07:35. > :07:39.maybe not. They are still on top of their corporation. It was predicted
:07:39. > :07:48.a year ago the Murdochs will be gone, but they are still running
:07:48. > :07:52.the show. But who is going to buy the Times?
:07:52. > :07:56.Britain is in double dip recession, Spanish unemployment is
:07:56. > :07:59.unbelievable, the Dutch government has collapsed, does his lens some
:07:59. > :08:03.credibility to the French presidential candidate, Francois
:08:03. > :08:12.Hollande, who says that austerity is not working. That is his big
:08:12. > :08:18.beach. Britain is becoming the example where a austerity does not
:08:18. > :08:25.work. The problem is for Francois Hollande, after the election, they
:08:25. > :08:29.have a huge deficit to solve. If you are downgraded by the rating
:08:29. > :08:34.agency, which Britain may be and France may be, then your cost of
:08:34. > :08:38.borrowing is increasing. How do you do austerity, which the ratings
:08:38. > :08:43.agency is asking, and a non austerity, which your public
:08:43. > :08:48.opinion is asking for. It is a question which we have everywhere.
:08:48. > :08:58.I think it is better than -- better to have debt, like America, which
:08:58. > :08:59.
:08:59. > :09:05.is living very well. For centuries, countries have lived with debt.
:09:05. > :09:10.Sometimes they wipe the slate. That is what countries had done for
:09:10. > :09:14.years. But in the past it, debt has become the most sinful thing. There
:09:14. > :09:19.is nothing progressive about dead, but there are different ways of
:09:19. > :09:24.reducing the deficit, and austerity is not working. It is not working
:09:24. > :09:29.in Greece, it is not working in Portugal, in France, in Italy, in
:09:29. > :09:34.England. Not working in lots and lots of countries because it is
:09:34. > :09:39.killing the economy, the social cost of the policies... there are
:09:39. > :09:45.those who say it will be working in Germany. But Germany has not had
:09:45. > :09:48.austerity. They went through it a decade ahead. They had the big
:09:48. > :09:54.conferences, they have a much better relationship between their
:09:54. > :10:00.trade unions and the banks. Eventually, we will all have to
:10:00. > :10:07.have a conference. They also make something that everybody wants to
:10:07. > :10:13.buy. The or steady growth argument is almost a false one at the moment.
:10:13. > :10:17.-- austerity. This crisis does not really start in 2008. This is a
:10:17. > :10:22.crisis that has been building for 30 years, and all across what we
:10:22. > :10:26.call the developed world. It is no longer possible without a lot of
:10:26. > :10:32.government intervention to have conditions approaching full
:10:32. > :10:37.employment. The public sector has not crowded out the private sector
:10:37. > :10:42.in this period. In Britain for example, quantitative easing has
:10:42. > :10:48.put a tremendous amount a money back in circulation, has it
:10:48. > :10:52.improved employment in the private sector? No. In America, where there
:10:52. > :11:00.has been some modest stimulus, has it improved hiring in the private
:11:00. > :11:03.sector? Not enough to get us back to where we were. There is no
:11:03. > :11:07.possibility be the economic model improving until it is acknowledged
:11:07. > :11:15.that the state has to be the employer of last resort. Then you
:11:15. > :11:25.can have your consumption. That at -- that is the opposition
:11:25. > :11:30.
:11:30. > :11:35.of the prevailing sentiment in The need to keep trying until you
:11:35. > :11:39.find something to work but what should we do? We need to slow down
:11:39. > :11:44.the debt repayments without frightening the banks. They will
:11:44. > :11:53.not get any money unless a slowdown. The former Chancellor said they
:11:53. > :11:57.will pay down half the debt that the Coalition under talk. We need
:11:58. > :12:04.to invest with more quantitative easing but it has not worked well
:12:04. > :12:09.but better than alternatives such as flatlining. We need to spend on
:12:09. > :12:14.infrastructure, energy, we haven't energy gap, Palace stations, the
:12:14. > :12:19.airport, Heathrow Airport is a scandal with three-hour delays.
:12:20. > :12:23.That's just 90 days ahead of the Olympics. There's more we can do.
:12:23. > :12:30.The banks are sitting on tonnes of money. They need to be forced to
:12:30. > :12:38.recognise the reality. We are is the sense of the electorate in
:12:38. > :12:43.France? 20% had voted. That's because they look at everybody as
:12:43. > :12:48.encryption. We have moved from an era of a banking crisis and the
:12:48. > :12:54.financial crisis to a series of political crisis. A loss of
:12:54. > :13:03.confidence in the parties. This is the big lesson in the French
:13:03. > :13:10.election. It's more like 35%. We have extreme left. 35% of the
:13:10. > :13:17.people want protection against Europe. They do won the immigrants
:13:17. > :13:23.out. The danger of France is that the middle class is collapsing such
:13:23. > :13:30.as many of southern European countries. But say we will win. He
:13:30. > :13:38.deserves to win. Presidents are close is responsible for this mess.
:13:38. > :13:45.They need to do what you have said, go slower with reducing the debt.
:13:45. > :13:51.Reduce the public service. Reduce the deficit. The argument from
:13:51. > :13:54.President Sarkozy is that it has the potential to break up any deal
:13:54. > :14:04.with the eurozone and it may be dangerous with markets reacting
:14:04. > :14:04.
:14:05. > :14:11.badly. That's impossible to German and French axis will collapse. They
:14:11. > :14:20.may be a softening with the Germans Audley alliance. This is at the
:14:20. > :14:24.centre. President Sarkozy broke two deals saying he would keep that
:14:24. > :14:28.'AAA' rating which they lost earlier and also he said, at the
:14:28. > :14:33.beginning of his mandate, if unemployment is higher than 5% by
:14:33. > :14:39.the time he finishes his first term the electorate has the right to
:14:39. > :14:45.judge me because I did not do my job but now the unemployment is at
:14:45. > :14:54.10%, double the rate and he has failed. How about Spain with 25%
:14:54. > :15:00.unemployment? That unimaginable. I think it Co-op's with the economy
:15:00. > :15:06.and family structure, the families of coming together to help each
:15:06. > :15:11.other. A whole family can live together and help each other with
:15:11. > :15:18.living off their grandmothers pension. They cannot pay off their
:15:18. > :15:22.mortgage etc. It's desperate. prospect of discontent on the
:15:22. > :15:28.streets should not be underestimated. We saw last year
:15:28. > :15:34.there was a lot of protesting in Spain, Madrid, all over. They
:15:34. > :15:41.complained about the austerity measures. They will be there again
:15:41. > :15:45.soon with these elections. It is spreading like wildfire and it is
:15:45. > :15:50.unsustainable exposing them to so much pain. I was there at the time
:15:50. > :15:56.of the last election in Spain when the right wing government was
:15:56. > :16:02.elected. It's been interesting to watch how quickly they have come
:16:02. > :16:08.back from the statements saying to satisfy the Germans. They said they
:16:08. > :16:14.wanted more austerity but here we are, 120 days later realising they
:16:14. > :16:21.cannot do this. Betts narrow it down to the thoughts this week in
:16:21. > :16:27.Britain. The ex-Cabinet minister resigned, in Fox, St austerity is
:16:27. > :16:36.not working but says we need more austerity. Who is he speaking for?
:16:36. > :16:46.It's a narrow segment of the ideological pro-American group but
:16:46. > :16:49.
:16:49. > :16:54.he is way off. The Chancellor is clever. He instinctively is
:16:54. > :17:02.economically dry. He is conservative classical. He is not
:17:02. > :17:08.stupid. A will not be able to fulfil the promise of posterity. It
:17:08. > :17:11.will become self defeating. That was clear from the start. They need
:17:11. > :17:21.to adjust and adapt and do the things we have spoken about. Even
:17:21. > :17:22.
:17:22. > :17:32.the Dutch government, prosperity, eight Bell with excessive austerity.
:17:32. > :17:43.
:17:43. > :17:51.They need change and the Germans The euro is fine. You do not need
:17:51. > :18:01.to fight for the devaluation. a Pine Point that the euro is still
:18:01. > :18:07.there. There's an Anglo American mind set that cuts across all lines
:18:07. > :18:17.with their egotistical reasons. not have a currency without a
:18:17. > :18:18.
:18:18. > :18:24.policy. They proved that with the greenback. The British do not want
:18:25. > :18:32.to go forward. The speed of creating this without any back up
:18:32. > :18:40.with a shed at risk. The model which we created ten years ago we
:18:40. > :18:45.knew it would hit trouble. It's the opposite of what was meant to do.
:18:46. > :18:51.It is still there. It will stay there. The cry says exists as the
:18:51. > :18:55.result of the financial crisis but with a fundamental flaw in the
:18:55. > :19:02.design of the single currency. fact that there's not a political
:19:02. > :19:11.union but also the' economic instruments at work to judge the
:19:11. > :19:21.success of this single currency, they are all wrong. Even Germany
:19:21. > :19:34.
:19:35. > :19:38.Let's move on. This issue is about Amsterdam with copy shops. Across
:19:39. > :19:43.Europe people know you can buy cannabis there which has been
:19:43. > :19:53.decriminalised. The Dutch have woken up that some of these
:19:53. > :19:59.tourists a day to buy drugs. And they will now move to sell drugs to
:19:59. > :20:05.only Dutch criminals. It's no it at Question of decriminalisation.
:20:05. > :20:09.a problem for the Dutch they have recognised. The last, was in
:20:09. > :20:15.Amsterdam was a few years ago and I love the city. It's a wonderful
:20:15. > :20:25.city. It's degraded, terribly degraded because children come from
:20:25. > :20:30.all over Europe to get higher. They get prostitutes. It's been going on
:20:30. > :20:37.for 30 years and it is deteriorating. From spending time
:20:37. > :20:43.there, they're very empirical with morality. It's reasonable to say,
:20:43. > :20:48.why would she decriminalise smoking pot? After 30 years they say it's
:20:48. > :20:52.drawn in a bad elements so we need to adjust. I don't think there's a
:20:53. > :20:58.problem with decriminalising a drug like cannabis. The problem is, if
:20:58. > :21:05.it brings in anti-social elements, society needs to respond. I think
:21:05. > :21:08.this is the end of Europe and I do not think they will do this. It's a
:21:08. > :21:16.violation of the single market. Can you imagine in Britain if you went
:21:16. > :21:22.to a pub in Britain and the publican asks to see your passport?
:21:22. > :21:32.Exactly. You cannot have a beer because you are not English, you
:21:32. > :21:41.are Dutch. Is very difficult to implement. It violates the single
:21:41. > :21:48.market. One of out Portugal? never created laws for who can or
:21:48. > :21:58.who cannot. It would be OK it you kicked Americans out of Amsterdam
:21:58. > :22:03.
:22:03. > :22:11.but not Europeans? I think soft drugs bring hard drugs. It will
:22:11. > :22:17.bring a bad element. We do not need that. We have enough problems.
:22:17. > :22:27.much older but I do not understand these issues, what is this front? I
:22:27. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:42.My Dutch have been retreating from the very liberal positions cracking
:22:42. > :22:46.
:22:46. > :22:56.They have cracked down on prostitution. They are pragmatic.
:22:56. > :23:01.It degrades parts of the city. But it is a wonderful city. If they
:23:01. > :23:10.ever get it finished it will be more wonderful but the question of
:23:10. > :23:16.criminalisation is interesting because for about 50 is with drug-
:23:16. > :23:22.use as part of society and that has empowered the criminals around the
:23:22. > :23:30.world. They have managed to turn most of the Spanish-speaking
:23:30. > :23:38.countries in the Caribbean into one last drug area creeping towards the
:23:38. > :23:45.US. West Africa is in a similar destabilised position. The deeper
:23:45. > :23:49.question is about criminalisation and how can the Consumers' in the
:23:49. > :23:57.first world with all the money how can we get this balanced to attack
:23:57. > :24:03.the organised crime? We need to use the taxes to pay off the budget
:24:03. > :24:08.deficit. We need to keep people employed so they can be taxed on
:24:08. > :24:12.their income and the consumers. Those developing countries are
:24:12. > :24:22.using it as a cash income. They cannot find things to sell to the
:24:22. > :24:25.