:00:03. > :00:08.overseen by the retail guru Mary Portas.
:00:08. > :00:18.I will be back with the full news bulletin at 1pm. Now it is time for
:00:18. > :00:33.
:00:33. > :00:37.A warm welcome to Dateline, a last chance to save the Europe again, it
:00:37. > :00:44.will it work this time? Egypt's first free and fair presidential
:00:44. > :00:48.elections. Was the British culture secretary to friendly with Rupert
:00:48. > :00:51.Murdoch minions? My guess today are Saul Zadka of AL London, Abdallah
:00:51. > :00:56.Homouda, Brian O'Connell of Ireland's RTE and Ned Temko of The
:00:56. > :00:59.Observer. The leaders of the eurozone have been drinking in the
:00:59. > :01:04.last-chance saloon for so long it is difficult to recall exactly how
:01:04. > :01:08.many attempts they have made. Nalgo looks as if the fate of the
:01:08. > :01:15.supposedly unbreakable currency union is in the hands of voters in
:01:15. > :01:21.one of the smallest states, Greece. It is also on the fate of the Irish
:01:21. > :01:25.voters. Ireland is more likely to vote yes? The latest opinion
:01:25. > :01:31.polls... This is a referendum on the fiscal treaty which comes up
:01:31. > :01:36.next week in Ireland. The latest opinion polls suggest that the yes
:01:36. > :01:39.vote have it by about a margin of two to one. But there is quite a
:01:39. > :01:43.significant number of people who do not know and people who say they
:01:43. > :01:47.will not vote at all. The government, both parties in the
:01:47. > :01:55.coalition, which it are supporting the yes campaign, are not counting
:01:55. > :02:01.any chickens because as you know in Ireland we had the Lisbon
:02:01. > :02:07.referendum that was re-run because we got the wrong answer. It does
:02:07. > :02:12.look at the moment as if it will be a victory for the yes side.
:02:12. > :02:17.worried do you think people are in Ireland having taken pretty serious
:02:17. > :02:21.medicine yourselves... In Greece, it is even tougher for people, they
:02:21. > :02:27.are very fed up with this charity. They might do so forget about it.
:02:27. > :02:34.Effectively, we are going to vote for parties who want to renegotiate.
:02:34. > :02:40.So the euro may split. If the Euro split, it would not be good for
:02:40. > :02:47.Ireland. The cliche now is that Ireland has become the austerity
:02:47. > :02:55.poster boy. It has been very tough. The Bank nationalisations, the
:02:55. > :03:01.setting up of the National Bank, wage cuts, pension cuts, public
:03:01. > :03:06.spending cuts. It is very tough indeed. The IMF are saying more or
:03:06. > :03:10.less the same now to Greece. They say they care more about children
:03:10. > :03:16.in sub-Saharan Africa than I care about what is happening to people
:03:16. > :03:20.in Athens. The IMF of waving the big stick. Ireland is broadly seen
:03:20. > :03:27.as going through the motions, doing everything it is told by the IMF
:03:27. > :03:33.and at the EU and meeting the deficit targets. Part of the no
:03:33. > :03:40.side, the referendum campaign, has been at about whether you vote Yes
:03:40. > :03:46.and the No side so that you will have more and more austerity. The
:03:46. > :03:53.election of Francois Hollande has ranged -- raised a few question
:03:53. > :03:58.marks about that as well. Maybe we should celebrate European democracy.
:03:58. > :04:02.They have every right to say they want to change the government.
:04:02. > :04:06.unless they are wrong. Weekend decree running it! They do have
:04:06. > :04:10.every right but there are two separate issues. One is democracy
:04:10. > :04:13.which is all well and good and we all like it. The other is the
:04:13. > :04:17.structure called the European single currency. Although people
:04:17. > :04:22.are agonising over whether it was doomed from the start, you are
:04:22. > :04:26.right to say that the Last chance Saloon is not new. Indeed, there
:04:26. > :04:32.was an interview earlier this week with Alastair Darling reminding
:04:32. > :04:36.that in his last year Rome meeting when he was Chancellor in the old
:04:36. > :04:42.Labour government, they spent a lot of time talking about how to rescue
:04:43. > :04:47.Greece -- in his last euro meeting. It is a bit like a referendum in
:04:47. > :04:52.reverse, in other words, particularly the Germans and
:04:52. > :04:57.particularly Angela Merkel, they do not want to give what everyone else
:04:57. > :05:00.says is the logical answer. That is that no matter what other work
:05:00. > :05:07.around you come up with, the only way to get out of this crisis...
:05:07. > :05:12.And ironically the cheapest way, is not just firewalls but to recognise
:05:12. > :05:17.that you have to share the burden of this debt in the poorer
:05:17. > :05:21.countries, whether it be in southern Europe or the more debt to
:05:21. > :05:24.challenge countries like Ireland for it to work at all. Although we
:05:25. > :05:29.talk about Francois Hollande talking about this charity versus
:05:29. > :05:33.Growth, the real dividing line between him and Racal has not been
:05:33. > :05:38.austerity because the French have a debt problem of their own and he is
:05:38. > :05:43.committed to reducing debt, it is the notion of the arrangement
:05:43. > :05:49.whereby a richer countries recognise that they have to share
:05:49. > :05:54.the debt burden of the poor love. - the poorer. German voters have a
:05:54. > :05:59.say as well. They say it is fine for the rest of Europe to say what
:05:59. > :06:03.we have to do with our money, but we are not keen on it.
:06:03. > :06:09.Europeans do not tell the Germans what to do with their money, but
:06:09. > :06:13.they want their money. There is a problem with the fiscal policy and
:06:13. > :06:18.there is a problem with the financial policy and people blame
:06:18. > :06:21.the banks for restocking rather than lending and blame the
:06:22. > :06:28.Government's and the EU in general for adopting an ad hoc solution
:06:28. > :06:38.which ignores the policy principles which should conduct this properly.
:06:38. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:42.And also you have Britain with the possibility or the need to share in
:06:43. > :06:46.the problem without having anything to do with it. I do not see anyone
:06:46. > :06:51.just addressing the problem. You have a central bank with no
:06:51. > :07:01.jurisdiction in a number -- in the member states. How can you unify
:07:01. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:06.the fiscal policy? This is an important question which has to be
:07:06. > :07:13.addressed and had to regulate it and impose it without taking care -
:07:13. > :07:17.- taking away the sovereignty. The European Union has progressed a
:07:17. > :07:21.great deal and achieved a great deal but unfortunately you run a
:07:21. > :07:28.great deal forward, a long distance forward, without protecting your
:07:29. > :07:35.back lines. Also, Eurosceptics say, we told you so, we could see this
:07:35. > :07:39.fatal flaw. But there is no... Each of these electrodes is proving that
:07:39. > :07:43.there has ever been much of a demand for a European superstate.
:07:43. > :07:48.People talk about fiscal union and political union. Actually, voters
:07:48. > :07:52.in Germany and France as well do not seem to want that. The Greeks
:07:52. > :08:00.also do not want it that much. In fact, we are witnessing the
:08:00. > :08:03.situation in which I think it depends... Remarkable for such a
:08:03. > :08:07.small country to be so important. I do not think the latest package
:08:07. > :08:11.would make much difference. I was speaking to many Greeks in London
:08:11. > :08:14.and they said they were flying to Greece to put his debate in the
:08:14. > :08:22.election because they regard the last outcome as suicidal and
:08:22. > :08:30.embarrassing. It seems to me that if the Greeks do not vote for the
:08:30. > :08:34.bail-out, this will pave the way for Greece to exit the eurozone and
:08:34. > :08:38.this cannot spell plenty of troubles for many other countries.
:08:38. > :08:44.It seems to me that the Greeks are also looking at the new French
:08:44. > :08:48.President as their saviour because he was championing the cause of
:08:48. > :08:54.this narrative. They say, who a week not to renegotiate the pact
:08:54. > :08:58.that has been bridged with Germany? Do you think in the end the Greeks
:08:58. > :09:05.will vote for parties that can form a government and will accept the
:09:05. > :09:12.solution on the table? Or do think of the SYRIZA bloc and others... I
:09:12. > :09:16.think they probably will. I think the people will not want to
:09:16. > :09:22.contemplate leaving the road and the impact that would have on
:09:22. > :09:30.Greece -- the euro. They cannot have it both. Some people say you
:09:30. > :09:34.can. No, you cannot have it both ways. In Ireland, I think people
:09:34. > :09:39.probably realised that as well. You have got to bear the pain. You can
:09:39. > :09:45.blame whoever you want, previous governments, bad administration,
:09:45. > :09:49.the fact people do not pay their taxes. But at the end of the day,
:09:49. > :09:53.if you are going to get thrown out of the single currency, I think
:09:53. > :09:58.probably the outcome for Greece would be far worse. Angela Merkel
:09:58. > :10:04.is trying to revive the Greek economy as the Germans did in East
:10:04. > :10:09.Germany by introducing new measures in order to make it competitive
:10:09. > :10:13.economy. I am not so sure that the Greeks would like this idea of the
:10:13. > :10:16.Germans overseeing their economy. Let us move on. We should
:10:16. > :10:20.congratulate the people of Egypt this week far a massive step
:10:20. > :10:25.towards playing their part in a modern democratic country. The
:10:25. > :10:34.presidential vote is just the first step. His Egypt really on course
:10:34. > :10:39.for a better future? I hope so. But we are facing what was described in
:10:39. > :10:43.the Guardian newspaper as a nightmare scenario. We are
:10:43. > :10:52.congratulated and congratulate ourselves on the outcome of the
:10:52. > :10:58.imperfection of democracy. We have lived for nearly a year and a half
:10:58. > :11:03.under chaotic circumstances which many people seek... There were two
:11:03. > :11:08.very organised parties in the Egyptian arena from the beginning,
:11:08. > :11:13.the Muslim Brotherhood and the army. The army has proved to be less
:11:14. > :11:17.effective and they did not live up to its description. The Muslim
:11:18. > :11:27.Brotherhood have proven to be playing politics into a
:11:28. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:34.professional way. Now we are left with another round of elections
:11:34. > :11:40.between the candidate of the Muslim Brotherhood who came later to the
:11:40. > :11:46.arena because he was the reserve candidate. Actually, there were so
:11:46. > :11:50.many jokes in Egypt about him that the term of the presidency will not
:11:50. > :11:57.be four years but it will be something like 5000 kilometres
:11:57. > :12:02.because he... He has proven everyone wrong. The Muslim
:12:02. > :12:05.Brotherhood have proven that the party on the ground with 2 million
:12:05. > :12:10.plus members can do something and that should be a lesson for
:12:10. > :12:15.everyone. The problem now, how to get out of this? Are we going to be
:12:15. > :12:24.forced to vote for the Muslim Brotherhood because we do not like
:12:24. > :12:28.someone from the rearguard of the barbaric regime? Or because we hate
:12:28. > :12:32.the Muslim Brotherhood, we vote for anyone provided that we can kick
:12:32. > :12:41.him out after one term? Obviously, there are so many sectors in
:12:41. > :12:50.society. Some will not vote for the Muslim Brotherhood. There are four
:12:50. > :12:59.million votes, but but but only on the grounds that they do not like
:12:59. > :13:06.the Muslim Brotherhood? There are others, the Islamist block, will go
:13:06. > :13:10.for the Muslim Brotherhood. Other people was say, if we can pick out
:13:10. > :13:16.the president after a first come, we can have any one and it would
:13:16. > :13:25.not be worse than no Barrett. Maybe it would be for Israel!
:13:25. > :13:31.Israelis are looking at this with great concern. The secular
:13:31. > :13:37.candidate, President Mubarak's pass minister. A good unsurprising
:13:37. > :13:42.performance. All of the rest are going to reconsider the activities.
:13:42. > :13:48.The mask was off as a result of the uprising in Egypt. Think about what
:13:48. > :13:54.was happening in the lawless... The attack on the British embassy in
:13:54. > :14:00.Cairo, the attack on the best pipeline. We would expect him to
:14:00. > :14:03.lose in the next round. It is quite remarkable that the 17th June is
:14:03. > :14:08.the day of the second round of elections and also the day of the
:14:08. > :14:15.great collections. While we would reshape the future of the eurozone
:14:15. > :14:19.and the Arabs owned. Beyond the celebration of democracy and the
:14:19. > :14:25.Egyptians are electing their leader in the first time of 5000 years,
:14:25. > :14:29.beyond election, I can see very dark clouds in the horizon simply
:14:29. > :14:33.because the Egyptians would be locked into this confrontation
:14:33. > :14:43.between fundamentalism and the military. This would spell a
:14:43. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:48.Looking at what is emerging from Syria, you can't broadcast the
:14:48. > :14:54.pictures because they are so terrible. You would have to say
:14:54. > :15:01.that the whole region is still up for grabs. We have got a civil war
:15:01. > :15:06.in Syria, effectively. But we have Egypt are facing hard choices.
:15:06. > :15:11.is what it is about. I think it was in the article from Ian black, he
:15:11. > :15:16.quoted somebody as saying "this is as if the revolution never
:15:16. > :15:26.happened." if the revolution never happens, this would be a fixed
:15:26. > :15:28.
:15:28. > :15:32.Barrack we would see a victory of a 90 per cent. It is not perfect.
:15:32. > :15:42.Nobody ever suggested that democracy was perfect, but if you
:15:42. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:53.look at what Assad have done to Syria, it has to be better.
:15:53. > :16:00.most frustrating year and disappointing bit about the
:16:00. > :16:10.election is, not that it is not better than the alternative, it is,
:16:10. > :16:13.
:16:13. > :16:18.but even people willing to murder their own citizens like Assad means
:16:18. > :16:23.that with the presence we have seen is irreversible. What was the main
:16:23. > :16:30.message, no matter which side of the demonstration you were on? It
:16:30. > :16:40.was, it seemed to me, that Egypt wanted to be free of the same two
:16:40. > :16:45.binary choices. An authority than secular regime, and a theocracy,
:16:45. > :16:50.the Muslim Brotherhood. What is fascinating about this election is
:16:50. > :16:57.that 40 per cent of the voters voted for number three and number
:16:57. > :17:03.four, a break from the past. This eloquent Socialist rival and critic
:17:03. > :17:07.of the regime, and a Muslim Brotherhood candidates who
:17:07. > :17:14.campaigned on a more socially liberal tickets, a more pluralistic
:17:14. > :17:18.ticket. Those 40 per cent presumably filled disenfranchised.
:17:18. > :17:24.This result can be attributed to only 40 per cent of the electorate
:17:24. > :17:32.participating and voting. And people are quite a their fingers
:17:32. > :17:41.for not mobilising better. But now we face the scenario that it is
:17:41. > :17:48.either a it regime or the Islamists. The revolution came for different
:17:48. > :17:55.objectives, not only the freedom but for social stability and
:17:55. > :18:01.economic improvement. Jobs and dignity in living. This has to be
:18:01. > :18:11.the challenge of any president, and any President has to take into
:18:11. > :18:13.
:18:13. > :18:17.account that day Middle-East environment, including with Israel,
:18:17. > :18:23.passed to understand that if you want to live with a democratic
:18:23. > :18:27.country you have to take everything which comes with it. No surprise
:18:27. > :18:33.that Rupert Murdoch's organisation tried to be close to people empower
:18:33. > :18:38.in Britain and around the world, but it is a surprise how much some
:18:38. > :18:44.politicians sucked up to them. It could cost Jeremy Hunt his job, he
:18:44. > :18:49.is seen to have ruled on the bid for BSkyB. Should he resign? Should
:18:49. > :18:57.David Cameron sack him? We will see Jeremy Hunt and Tony Blair at the
:18:58. > :19:03.Levison inquiry, how much trouble is he in? A fair amount. It is not
:19:03. > :19:10.just Jeremy Hunt, what matters is the affect on 10 Downing Street and
:19:10. > :19:12.David Cameron. This is just one of a whole basket of problems that the
:19:13. > :19:16.Prime Minister who looked incredibly sure footed for 18
:19:16. > :19:26.months in power has had to deal with in the last two or three
:19:26. > :19:30.months. We heard, since the start of the year, that reluctantly David
:19:30. > :19:34.Cameron might want to shuffle his cabinet. He did not want to do it
:19:34. > :19:39.early because he believes instability. One effect is that you
:19:39. > :19:45.now have these two linked issues. He will have to reshuffle his team,
:19:45. > :19:48.for lots of reasons. The balance between the board Democrats and
:19:48. > :19:54.Tories around the Cabinet table been one of them. But the Jeremy
:19:54. > :19:58.Hunt thing is now linked to that. They now recognise that he has
:19:59. > :20:06.probably got to go, even though technically none of the
:20:06. > :20:14.embarrassing e-mails about the love notes to each other and childbirth,
:20:14. > :20:19.none of it is a crime and T may have been sufficiently arm's length
:20:19. > :20:25.to in the process. This is what worries them, though. The notion
:20:25. > :20:29.that Cameron was a where of his instinct to be in favour of News
:20:29. > :20:35.International. Yet he still maintained to the post of this
:20:35. > :20:39.procedure. The exactly. In Jeremy Hunt's favour, cockles Secretary,
:20:39. > :20:43.responsible for broadcasting although not for this takeover, it
:20:43. > :20:50.is perfectly reasonable for him to offer a view that it is a good
:20:50. > :20:56.thing and that he would like Sky. There is nothing of itself in that
:20:56. > :21:03.which is wrong. No, there is not. That is the one thing which David
:21:03. > :21:08.Cameron is holding on to. This is about perception. 1, Jeremy Hunt is
:21:08. > :21:13.dead in the water. He would not be in that job if it weren't for the
:21:13. > :21:17.fact that he had to turn a next week to give evidence at Levison.
:21:17. > :21:23.The only reason he is still there is because he has not given his
:21:23. > :21:32.evidence yet. He will have to go. But for the overall perception is,
:21:32. > :21:37.as you suggest, that David Cameron should not have a appointed to that
:21:37. > :21:41.Cabinet job somebody in favour of Murdoch. Everybody has a view on
:21:41. > :21:46.murdered one way or another, these cable did. That is why he lost that
:21:46. > :21:51.particular bit of his portfolio, but you have to ask whether there
:21:51. > :21:59.should be a quasar a judicial process, a bid for BSkyB, should it
:21:59. > :22:07.be a quasar a judicial process? Or should it be handed off to a High
:22:07. > :22:15.Court judge. I am never sure what it is, it is either judicial or it
:22:15. > :22:20.isn't, surely? David Cameron will say nothing happened. He did not
:22:20. > :22:26.sign off on this deal. It is the perception of it. The that is the
:22:26. > :22:32.interesting point, the special adviser to Jeremy Hunt said at
:22:32. > :22:37.Levison it was the perception. He resigned over the perception.
:22:37. > :22:45.did not resign. He was made to resign. He was made to resign in a
:22:46. > :22:51.way which incriminate him and makes him a scapegoat, and the cabinet
:22:52. > :22:55.secretary contributed to that. The Cabinet Secretary was a aware that
:22:55. > :23:00.the bug could be passed to the Prime Minister, so he wanted to
:23:00. > :23:08.kick it away by getting this guide to go. But the whole question is
:23:08. > :23:13.related to be relationship between the media, money and power. The
:23:13. > :23:18.fact that David Cameron was happy that the Murdoch empire supported
:23:18. > :23:28.him rather than Labour, during the last election, he wanted to keep
:23:28. > :23:33.that. Neither did Tony Blair. He is not alone in this and Gordon Brown
:23:33. > :23:40.was surprised it did not happen for him. Asking if Jeremy Hunt is not
:23:40. > :23:46.too close, he was in his pocket! You can't get closer. Murdoch is
:23:46. > :23:51.toxic, it leads all the way to Downing Street. When we were
:23:51. > :23:56.talking about, metaphorically, that the Murdoch empire and the British
:23:56. > :24:06.government are in the same bed, you can also say that when David
:24:06. > :24:16.Cameron was hosting a them in Chequers, only a wall separated
:24:16. > :24:17.
:24:17. > :24:23.them between David Cameron and his I am a bit worried about that where
:24:23. > :24:31.this is going. It is a metaphor, but there was at a relationship
:24:31. > :24:38.which meant they were too close. is a valid point. This is not just
:24:38. > :24:48.a Tory problem. Not only did Gordon Brown, amongst others in the Labour
:24:48. > :24:49.
:24:49. > :24:54.tried to curry favour with them, he went to the wedding. A Tony Blair
:24:54. > :24:59.is godfather to one of the children. This is not new and we should not
:24:59. > :25:04.be surprised. This is not about what happened or what didn't, it is
:25:04. > :25:09.about the politics of it. One of the frustrations for Downing Street
:25:09. > :25:13.would be that Labour may have been worse, but as they will remember
:25:13. > :25:21.from opposition, it does not matter if you are worse in opposition,
:25:21. > :25:29.that is the only good thing about being in opposition! 30 seconds now,
:25:29. > :25:36.Tony Blair talking at the inquiry, you could sell more tickets to that
:25:36. > :25:41.then the Olympics. Yes, it will be a full house. Nobody knows what
:25:41. > :25:47.will be brought up when it gets to the report, but it has been pretty