:00:02. > :00:06.The headlines: UN monitors in Syria have suspended operations because
:00:06. > :00:11.of increasing violence. Major General Robert Mood says that the
:00:11. > :00:16.observers will not conduct patrols and will remain inside at their
:00:16. > :00:19.present locations. The White House says it is consulting its
:00:19. > :00:25.international partners about what to do next.
:00:25. > :00:32.Aung San Suu Kyi has finally given her acceptance -- except in speech
:00:32. > :00:35.for her Nobel Peace Prize 21 years after it was awarded.
:00:35. > :00:39.The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has reacted angrily to the dissolution
:00:39. > :00:49.of parliament, saying that the military council is trying to
:00:49. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.derail moves towards democracy. Those are the headlines. Hello,
:01:16. > :01:19.welcome to Dateline London. The Spanish bail out, the Greek
:01:19. > :01:22.elections and the future of the euro, plus London's great summer
:01:22. > :01:28.entertainment, the Leveson Inquiry into press standards which heard
:01:28. > :01:31.from the prime minister David Cameron this week. The guests are
:01:31. > :01:41.Greg Katz, Cornelia Fuchs, Mark Roche and David Aaronovitch of the
:01:41. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:46.Times. The euro has had more last chance bail outs than Frank Sinatra
:01:46. > :01:49.had farewell concerts. This week it was Spain and this weekend is the
:01:49. > :01:52.question of whether Greece will vote in a government that is
:01:52. > :01:55.committed to abandoning the austerity agreement. Meanwhile,
:01:55. > :01:59.Angela Merkel pointed out that Germany's pockets may be deep, but
:01:59. > :02:07.not bottomless. So where are we now? Let's start with a ray of
:02:07. > :02:09.sunshine. Mark Roche, you think it is not as bad as people have made
:02:09. > :02:16.out? You have a financial crisis which
:02:16. > :02:21.is worldwide, the US, Britain, the eurozone is victim of. The eurozone
:02:21. > :02:29.is slowly, painfully, putting its act together. We are seeing the
:02:29. > :02:32.bail out of Spain. Italy has a good industry and high productivity. The
:02:32. > :02:35.French have a left-wing government, reining in on expenses and Portugal
:02:35. > :02:45.and Ireland are slowly and painfully getting their act
:02:45. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:55.together. I think I am quite optimistic about the euro. Greece
:02:55. > :02:58.is de facto, whoever wins, a small country with ten million people.
:02:58. > :03:08.The fact is that thanks to Germany and the solidarity among Euro
:03:08. > :03:08.
:03:08. > :03:14.partners the eurozone will get its act together. The real detached
:03:14. > :03:17.economy, which is doing badly in Europe, is Britain.
:03:17. > :03:20.Britain is not in the eurozone and is not immediately directly
:03:20. > :03:23.affected. If Greece votes for the SYRIZA government which says it
:03:23. > :03:27.will stay in the euro but tear up the austerity agreement, things
:03:27. > :03:32.will be different, won't they? It will have no consequence for the
:03:32. > :03:39.others, it could be a good thing. Greece leaves and get their act
:03:39. > :03:43.together, they can have the drachma and export. But the eurozone, the
:03:43. > :03:48.core of the eurozone is stronger than ever and is getting its act
:03:48. > :03:52.together under fortunately the German machine.
:03:52. > :04:00.I'll have some of what he is having! I will take some of
:04:00. > :04:04.whatever you are taking! French sunshine. Part of the difficulty if
:04:04. > :04:07.you are not actually in economics, a difficulty if you are an
:04:07. > :04:11.economics expert frankly, is to try and decide who in these sorts of
:04:11. > :04:15.situations when they think about what is going to happen in the near
:04:15. > :04:23.future has broadly got it correct and who hasn't and I find myself
:04:23. > :04:27.increasingly in a position of being unable to decide about it. I have
:04:27. > :04:29.heard sufficient from people who say that the Greek exit from the
:04:29. > :04:32.euro actually has extremely dire downstream consequences both for
:04:32. > :04:35.banks banks of other countries to be
:04:35. > :04:41.extremely worried about it and that is without even discussing the
:04:41. > :04:44.position that Spain is in after the question of whether that has been
:04:44. > :04:49.sufficient and as for us here in Britain, there we like, you have
:04:49. > :04:55.suggested that we have a bigger on the outside whereas of course
:04:55. > :04:59.the wisdom here very much is that we are outside, because we have a
:04:59. > :05:07.greater degree of flexibility, yet most of the indicators apart from
:05:07. > :05:11.unemploymen unemploymenwn significantly. We have seen exports
:05:11. > :05:18.down significantly, a sudden slump. Average incomes are back to 2004-
:05:18. > :05:22.2005 levels. The biggest drop in median incomes for 30 years.
:05:22. > :05:29.the gains wiped out incredibly quickly. It is difficult to know
:05:29. > :05:34.what Mark Roche was hinting at, a lot of people think if Greece has
:05:34. > :05:37.gone, so wh gone, so whonomy, it should not have been in the euro
:05:38. > :05:41.anyway, it might be better to get out, have the drachma back, the
:05:41. > :05:44.rest of Europe will cope, Spain and Italy make things that are
:05:44. > :05:51.exportable and are fundamentally sound economies and pay taxes, they
:05:51. > :05:54.are completely different? We know the alternative argument. There
:05:54. > :06:02.will be a massive devaluation in Greece. Almost everything people
:06:02. > :06:04.worth less. There will be a huge increase in unemployment. Anybody
:06:05. > :06:08.with money there will be significantly worse off unless they
:06:08. > :06:12.have taken it out and as soon as Greece has done it the markets
:06:12. > :06:15.start to look for the next country which is vulnerable, which might be
:06:16. > :06:20.a country as big as Spain. Cornelia Fuchs, everybody is looking at
:06:20. > :06:23.Angela Merkel to find out what she will do on Monday morning if she is
:06:23. > :06:28.faced with a government that is difficult to deal with in Greece?
:06:28. > :06:32.The good thing about Angela Merkel is you know where you are with her.
:06:32. > :06:37.Some say it is her stubbornness but she has said many times that Greece
:06:37. > :06:42.programme and then it gets the money necessary to get out of the
:06:42. > :06:45.economic problems it has. If it rejects the suggestions from Europe
:06:45. > :06:49.then basically they are on their own and I think if anything is
:06:49. > :06:57.needed at the moment it is perhaps some certainty and at least if the
:06:57. > :07:01.markets are looking for certainty they have that with Angela Merkel.
:07:01. > :07:04.Again, the counter-argument to that is if the Greeks are the good boys
:07:04. > :07:09.suddenly of Europe and do everything they are told to do by
:07:09. > :07:13.2012, they will still be in a mess by 2020, they will have a very high
:07:13. > :07:17.debt to GDP ratio and they will not get any real rewards, it is another
:07:17. > :07:20.eight years of suffering, it is difficult for them to put up with?
:07:20. > :07:24.Angela Merkel first said that of course they have the necessity to
:07:24. > :07:28.look at growth programmes but for her it is important to put one foot
:07:28. > :07:32.after the other, so you first have to have the structural reforms, or
:07:32. > :07:35.at least a notion that the reforms will actually work, then you can
:07:35. > :07:45.look at the growth programmes. You can't pour in money if nothing has
:07:45. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:51.changed. That needs to be solved. Do people in Germany, I know people
:07:51. > :07:54.in Britain think there is something about the smaller economies with a
:07:54. > :07:58.small number of voters choosing the future of Greece, which may choose
:07:58. > :08:01.the line in which 400 million Europeans have to go, in other
:08:01. > :08:05.words isn't that one of the, Mark Roche would talk about solidarity
:08:05. > :08:15.but isn't that a structural problem in Europe, you are dependent on the
:08:15. > :08:17.
:08:17. > :08:20.weakest link, Greece? It is one of the problems but it is also a
:08:20. > :08:28.strength. If Europe pulled together and shows it can pull out a country
:08:28. > :08:31.like Greece, then Europe would be stronger in the end. So the whole
:08:31. > :08:35.European concept of having a larger group of countries who stand to get
:08:36. > :08:45.there is an idea that still I think appeals to me and there are people
:08:46. > :08:46.
:08:46. > :08:50.who would want that to work. -- stand together. Greg, the United
:08:50. > :08:52.States has its own problems and are spectators on this one, but rather
:08:53. > :08:56.like George Osborne saying many of Britain's economic problems are
:08:56. > :08:59.directly related to the problems in the eurozone, the United States is
:08:59. > :09:03.fearful that if something bad happens here it will be worse for
:09:03. > :09:06.the Obama re-election team. I was going to mention that. It is
:09:06. > :09:09.interesting this week, Obama has had two bad weeks in terms of
:09:09. > :09:13.economic news and we have an internal election, very close now,
:09:13. > :09:20.five or six months away. Obama was trying to shift attention and say
:09:20. > :09:24.if the eurozone gets bad, it will gum up the system. He is saying
:09:24. > :09:32.don't blame me how bad things are here because they have messed it up
:09:32. > :09:35.over there, but that could be a passing tactic for Obama. You are
:09:35. > :09:39.having an intelligent discussion about Europe but much of the rest
:09:39. > :09:45.of the world sees the European process as something of a bad joke
:09:45. > :09:47.at this point. These leaders, the constant summits, the constant
:09:47. > :09:51.posturing and dithering, all of these leaders constantly getting
:09:51. > :09:58.together in Brussels in the hotels and coming out and saying next to
:09:58. > :10:02.nothing, it has been going on too long. Every day I drive to work and
:10:02. > :10:07.listen to Radio Four, and I hear the doom and gloom over and over
:10:07. > :10:13.again. Nothing seems to change. My sense is it is finally coming to a
:10:13. > :10:16.head but who knows what happens. Things have changed. All these
:10:16. > :10:25.meetings have meant there is a special stability fund, there is
:10:25. > :10:29.another fund to help the banks. We are showing this to the EU and the
:10:29. > :10:33.EU is a very cumbersome process, 27 countries, and the eurozone is 17.
:10:33. > :10:36.It takes time for all to find solutions and I think thanks to the
:10:36. > :10:39.European Central Bank we have coped with this crisis very well, knowing
:10:39. > :10:47.that the political things are difficult, the problem is that is
:10:47. > :10:51.no longer an economic problem, but a political problem. You need a
:10:51. > :10:58.banking union, a fiscal union, we, the 17 in the eurozone, have to go
:10:58. > :11:01.forward and forget about the political division. We need now to
:11:01. > :11:06.be more integrated, more federalist and then decisions will be easier
:11:06. > :11:09.to take. Do you see an appetite for that in
:11:09. > :11:17.France or Germany? The countries that most matter? Aren't we seeing
:11:17. > :11:23.amongst ordinary people the reassertion of the nation state?
:11:23. > :11:32.Germans are Germans, the Greeks are Greeks, the British are British.
:11:32. > :11:35.has always been the nation-state. We don't want the European
:11:35. > :11:39.conglomeration, do we? But it has brought growth for so many years,
:11:39. > :11:46.no war, all that. We are working very well in Europe, it is very
:11:46. > :11:49.prosperous. At the moment we are going through a difficult time and
:11:49. > :11:53.people are suffering and it is very important therefore to put growth
:11:53. > :12:00.behind, in the forefront, and cut less expense. We have to emphasise
:12:00. > :12:04.growth. That discussion, if Cornelia Fuchs
:12:04. > :12:14.doesn't mind taking the role of Angela Merkel, no to austerity, yes
:12:14. > :12:18.
:12:18. > :12:22.to growth, she is giving a different message. One of the big
:12:22. > :12:25.problems for Britain is that we now see it as being in our interests
:12:25. > :12:29.that the greater integration you are talking about happens. The big
:12:29. > :12:32.problem for you is it is not straightforward. It is the problem
:12:32. > :12:40.for Italy. Are you prepared to accept the weaker countries of
:12:40. > :12:44.Europe? They have to be perpetually invested in out of European
:12:44. > :12:47.solidarity. The problem for Britain is if you go ahead with a much more
:12:47. > :12:52.integrated Europe, then we really are facing the problem on the
:12:52. > :12:55.outside. To some right-wingers and Tories and Euro-sceptics that is
:12:55. > :12:59.exactly what they have wanted and probably the majority of the
:12:59. > :13:01.British people before we come to a referendum about it, for somebody
:13:01. > :13:05.like me it is an incredibly worrying proposition. Isn't that
:13:05. > :13:08.the crunch point, for Angela Merkel, she wants more Europe, but she
:13:09. > :13:12.means more Europe that has the core values that Germany has and some
:13:12. > :13:15.other countries to the north and that is not replicated in the
:13:16. > :13:19.countries to the south and the question is, to go back to Marc's
:13:19. > :13:25.point, you have to continue to bail out countries which are not
:13:25. > :13:29.functioning in the same way that Germany does? Yes, of course, that
:13:29. > :13:33.is the line she wants to take, but of course European discussions are
:13:33. > :13:36.always in the end a compromise so Angela Merkel is very good in
:13:36. > :13:43.pointing her own ideas and then in the end finally doing a compromise
:13:43. > :13:46.that works for everyone. She has proven that a lot of times in
:13:47. > :13:50.internal politics and I think Europe has never been a dream
:13:50. > :13:54.project for the citizens in Europe but if it comes to the crunch, in
:13:54. > :13:59.the end, if people have to decide if they want to have Europe, if
:13:59. > :14:06.they don't want to have Europe at all, I think in the end they will
:14:06. > :14:09.decide for Europe. German voters and French voters and British
:14:09. > :14:12.voters like the European Union guaranteeing there won't be another
:14:12. > :14:16.major war in Europe, everybody is agreed on that, but what German
:14:16. > :14:20.voters do not like is the idea that constantly their money is going to
:14:20. > :14:22.be poured down what some of them see as a bottomless pit, which is
:14:22. > :14:26.perhaps why Chancellor Merkel reminded people that Germany's
:14:26. > :14:30.pockets are not bottomless this week. Exactly, she spoke to German
:14:30. > :14:38.citizens with that speech and it is important to see that there is
:14:38. > :14:42.still money there. They are preparing another bail out already
:14:42. > :14:46.now and Germany will vote for the fiscal pact on 28th June, so things
:14:46. > :14:50.are moving onwards but there still needs to be a discussion with the
:14:50. > :14:53.voters in Germany as well and I think one of the problems is the
:14:53. > :15:01.whole situation sometimes has not been explained very clearly and
:15:01. > :15:06.truthfully. I think politicians would have explained it much more
:15:06. > :15:10.truthfully, we just have to do this, let me put it another way, I pay
:15:10. > :15:14.solidarity taxes since I have been working for East Germany. Everyone
:15:14. > :15:19.agreed to it. There is a discussion if these solidarity taxes are still
:15:19. > :15:25.necessary nowadays. You could argue in the same sense there is a
:15:25. > :15:31.solidarity tax for Europe that needs to be paid. But it is a
:15:31. > :15:35.harder sell. But you would need to try to sell it. In Europe, we help
:15:35. > :15:41.the poor. It is not like in America where the poor are left to
:15:41. > :15:50.themselves. Italy likes the north, but Italy, the loss of Europe.
:15:50. > :15:55.of the rich don't like paying taxes It is not a perfect organisation
:15:55. > :16:01.but in general, rich countries have helped poorer countries. Let us
:16:01. > :16:08.move on. None of us remember a British investigation like the
:16:08. > :16:15.Leveson Inquiry. Many people are subjected to lengthy forensic
:16:15. > :16:21.investigation about people in power and he media. Are we really getting
:16:21. > :16:26.somewhere? Will have statutory press regulation be the end.? All
:16:26. > :16:34.will be government have better things to do with it time? There is
:16:34. > :16:39.a view that this is something for the media junkies and newspapers
:16:39. > :16:48.and television. People don't really care. People in Britain are worried
:16:48. > :16:53.about whether they will have a job next month. This difficulty where
:16:53. > :17:01.we address that question in that way... Most people do not care. I
:17:01. > :17:08.almost gave up a long time ago. It is not the first time we have been
:17:08. > :17:13.through this. This is the fourth. This is now becoming part of the
:17:13. > :17:21.progression of British history, which is that everybody's Tex will
:17:21. > :17:31.get out and read by everybody. not in such an entertaining way.
:17:31. > :17:34.
:17:34. > :17:39.I thought, even I am not interested in this. Whether people are
:17:39. > :17:46.interested or not, comes a secondary question. Can't we say
:17:46. > :17:56.this is not important? It has become incredibly infused by what
:17:56. > :17:58.
:17:58. > :18:08.we think is being important. -- Is this about press behaviour or
:18:08. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:15.about Rupert Murdoch's influence? Ed Miliband sees Rupert Murdoch as
:18:15. > :18:20.a road block into getting a left- wing government. Those two circles
:18:21. > :18:25.intersect. It is in Ed Miliband's interests to make sure that those
:18:25. > :18:30.circles are congruent and that they overlap. But intellectually they do
:18:30. > :18:40.not. You can see why David Cameron Watt to separate those circles
:18:40. > :18:41.
:18:41. > :18:50.entirely. What do you make of this? It is a coup d'etat. You have the
:18:50. > :18:56.press, Rupert Murdoch, the police, the media, the political left and
:18:56. > :19:05.right. If he does have the courage of the Guardian, this thing will
:19:05. > :19:14.not even... You cannot even control me, let alone the police. You have
:19:14. > :19:23.control by Murdoch at the highest levels of the political system.
:19:23. > :19:29.Never has there been a situation like this. The inquiry has lost the
:19:29. > :19:34.plot talking about those two lines of inquiry. For me, it was about
:19:34. > :19:42.criminal wrongdoing, hacking, and the obscene things they did to
:19:42. > :19:50.celebrity is. For me, the first six weeks were riveting. But then it
:19:50. > :19:55.got to an abstract thing of, what is the right way to regulate, who
:19:55. > :20:03.had to know with whom? It has gotten quite tedious. They have
:20:03. > :20:11.lost the plot. It is not about, does Rupert Murdoch have too much
:20:11. > :20:21.influence, or what is the best way to regulate. It is about the
:20:21. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:27.Freedom of Information being used as a cover-up. There is information
:20:27. > :20:31.about a stock market dealings. That is what interested me. There
:20:31. > :20:36.were a lot of criminal deed being done. That is pretty provocative
:20:36. > :20:41.and shocking and a damning for the press. The idea that Rebekah Brooks
:20:42. > :20:49.is coated with David Cameron, exchanging text, was fine reading.
:20:49. > :20:59.We covered it. I would expect Rupert Murdoch to try to use
:20:59. > :21:05.influence over the Prime Minister. In a similar way that Richard Nixon
:21:05. > :21:09.was being influenced. Listening to three consecutive prime ministers
:21:09. > :21:15.trying to defend their relationship with media proprietors... I found
:21:15. > :21:22.that interesting and something that I had never heard before, certainly
:21:22. > :21:27.not in a German context. Press and politics, together, to not exist.
:21:27. > :21:31.On that scale, I found it interesting. I wonder what Lord
:21:31. > :21:41.Justice Leveson will do with this. It is clear that some people are
:21:41. > :21:44.
:21:44. > :21:54.not entirely telling the truth. Gordon Brown... Whip over Skinner
:21:54. > :21:56.
:21:56. > :22:02.ties and over deliberate on It happens between you and your
:22:02. > :22:12.wife and me and my wife all the time. When we get to the Richard
:22:12. > :22:22.
:22:22. > :22:32.Nixon level... I remember having a Gordon Brown was angered by how the
:22:32. > :22:34.
:22:34. > :22:44.Sun and treated him. But when he said, I never knew that anybody was
:22:44. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:55.against Tony Blair, he never asked Rupert Murdoch said he never used
:22:56. > :23:05.his papers to promote his own business interests, which is
:23:06. > :23:14.
:23:14. > :23:24.It is seen as immoral or wrong for Rupert monarch to change the
:23:24. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:46.It is a question of institutions being undermined by Rupert Murdoch.
:23:46. > :23:56.In what way? Murdoch has put his agenda on Europe. There is nothing
:23:56. > :23:57.
:23:57. > :24:01.wrong with that. It is clear that Tony Blair took no notice at all.
:24:01. > :24:11.What he tried to do was present these things at the summit in a way
:24:11. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:29.that would have meant it would Rupert Murdoch went right to the
:24:29. > :24:34.institutions. Do you think this is heading towards more press
:24:34. > :24:40.regulation? People talk about their dissatisfaction with things. Ed
:24:40. > :24:50.Miliband and John Major talked about this. Is any government going
:24:50. > :24:52.
:24:52. > :24:58.to spend a lot of time taking on the press? Including people at the
:24:58. > :25:05.BBC. Journalists don't like regulators. There is a reason for
:25:05. > :25:10.this. The outcome of this inquiry should not be another regulator.
:25:10. > :25:14.The Press Complaints Commission needs more power in reprimanding
:25:14. > :25:22.its members. I do not think it should get closer to fricassee of
:25:22. > :25:26.the state. -- bureaucracy. Putting it all on the table and letting
:25:26. > :25:34.everyone see it is already an outcome. That is the important
:25:34. > :25:40.thing. Regulation in the US is dead anyway. It should lead to a change
:25:40. > :25:44.so that journalists can no longer break the law. I do not think we
:25:44. > :25:50.should ever be able to break the laws of a country and justified it
:25:50. > :25:56.by saying, the story is worth it. The argument fails. David Lee has
:25:56. > :26:01.been let off by the prosecution service on exactly that basis. They
:26:01. > :26:08.have already ruled that there is a public interest defence for his
:26:08. > :26:15.phone hacking with an arms dealer. I would see the difference between
:26:15. > :26:20.armed dealers, terrace and had a files. What we are coming back to
:26:20. > :26:30.is not the question of legality but public interest. -- terrace and
:26:30. > :26:40.
:26:40. > :26:46.I think it is important that Britain does not see privacy laws
:26:46. > :26:56.like France. This allows politicians to us corruption.
:26:56. > :27:18.
:27:18. > :27:23.That's it all today. Follow us on It should feel warmer today. That
:27:23. > :27:30.is partly because there will be less rain. They should be brighter
:27:30. > :27:39.skies and a more sunshine. The winds should be lighter. A bright
:27:39. > :27:49.start for many. Clouds left in north-east England. Rain is
:27:49. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:53.retreating to the coastal areas. Sunshine along the coast.
:27:53. > :27:58.Temperatures will be higher than yesterday. More rain to come,