:00:02. > :00:12.against Italy tomorrow. The winner will face Germany in the semi-
:00:12. > :00:29.
:00:29. > :00:35.finals. Welcome to decline London. Is it
:00:35. > :00:39.immoral to pay as little tax as legally necessary? This week is the
:00:39. > :00:49.last chance to see the euro, and are we witnessing not democracy in
:00:49. > :00:49.
:00:49. > :00:55.Egypt, but a slow takeover by the Miller Terry gym -- a slowed
:00:55. > :00:57.takeover by the military. A well-known British entertainer
:00:57. > :01:02.and comedian Jimmy Carter was revealed to have been involved in
:01:02. > :01:07.an ingenious and legal tax avoidance scheme through which in -
:01:07. > :01:15.- through which he saved millions of pounds in tax. David -- David
:01:15. > :01:19.Cameron called it morally wrong. Is it morally wrong to avoid paying
:01:19. > :01:22.tax? Is it politically daft of the Prime Minister to mention this when
:01:22. > :01:26.several but Conservative Party donors also pay very little impact?
:01:26. > :01:31.We are not the morality police, but is it a good idea for politicians
:01:31. > :01:37.to talk about morally wrong in this situation? It is difficult. David
:01:37. > :01:40.Cameron was away from home at the Mexico summit. When you are always
:01:40. > :01:45.you kind of mess the steps sometimes and perhaps he should not
:01:45. > :01:48.have done it. He was at a press conference and asked about it. He
:01:48. > :01:53.responded, in fairness to David Cameron, since no one else has been
:01:53. > :01:57.fair to him on this, he was asked about the comedian who made a big
:01:57. > :02:02.thing about mucking Barclays Bank about their tax-avoidance scams, so
:02:02. > :02:05.in a way it was it an easy mark. People then say, what about
:02:05. > :02:09.entertainers to support the Conservative Party? What about your
:02:09. > :02:15.father? David Cameron's father was a man with great physical
:02:16. > :02:19.deformities who overcame things and made a great amount of money. I am
:02:19. > :02:22.puzzled by the rich, they seem to think they do they can take it with
:02:22. > :02:27.them, that when they get to heaven or the other place that they can
:02:27. > :02:31.open an offshore account. I prefer Warren buffet to said that he gave
:02:31. > :02:36.his children enough so that they could do anything they want in life,
:02:36. > :02:41.except nothing at all. And Andrew Carnegie, he said that the man who
:02:41. > :02:44.dies rich dies disgraced. That is clearly what build great -- what
:02:44. > :02:49.Bill Gates thinks, and Warren buffet it has given his money to
:02:49. > :02:53.Bill Gates to give it away. We're quoting all these famous Americans,
:02:53. > :02:58.let's not forget the honour Helmsley. She said that taxes are
:02:58. > :03:02.for the little people. That is why people get upset. Especially when
:03:02. > :03:06.the recession seemed to be for the little people as well. People are
:03:06. > :03:12.particularly hurting. There is a changing morality. We are paying
:03:12. > :03:15.off their debts anyway. The few years ago it was possible for a
:03:15. > :03:19.Labour politician to say that they are relaxed and earning a lot of
:03:19. > :03:23.money because the economy was doing well. In hard times, that is the
:03:23. > :03:27.difficult message to send. It is, and a bracelet, morality is an
:03:27. > :03:32.important issue here. But it is kind of a side issue. The real
:03:32. > :03:37.issue is the tax code. In other words, as a Government, if you set
:03:37. > :03:41.the speed limit at 200 mph and you can travel in both directions on
:03:41. > :03:46.the motorway, something is going to happen. And yes, people who are in
:03:46. > :03:55.accidents bear some responsibility, but the laws should not allow for
:03:55. > :04:00.this kind of chicanery. Indeed, Greece is also, yes, she we go
:04:00. > :04:03.again. Let's put it this way, tax- efficient schemes for some of the
:04:03. > :04:07.rich people which these and many of the other politicians have said,
:04:07. > :04:10.this is terrible. Some of their rich people to not be enough.
:04:10. > :04:15.have been getting back inside Greece and what we have been
:04:15. > :04:20.getting from outside Greece is that nobody pays tax. I think what we
:04:20. > :04:26.are seeing here is that... Morality is a very tricky concept in
:04:26. > :04:29.politics but it is coming up more and more. We have had Mario Monte
:04:29. > :04:33.saying this week that countries that behave well should be rewarded
:04:33. > :04:39.with loans. We have fiscal austerity that his income to be
:04:39. > :04:42.seen as a moral choice rather than an intellectual choice. What we
:04:42. > :04:45.have here in Britain with this Government is increasingly this
:04:45. > :04:49.sense that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. When
:04:49. > :04:53.you have all of these complaints about benefit fraud and people on
:04:53. > :04:57.disability benefit being checked out and Michael Gove's scheme to
:04:58. > :05:00.bring back the old O-levels and CSE schemes so there is one set of
:05:01. > :05:06.exams for middle class clever people and another for everyone
:05:06. > :05:10.else, you get into a pit of the eight... He is allowed to disagree
:05:10. > :05:15.but we will speak to him in a minute. One thing we have learned
:05:15. > :05:22.is that morality and politics do not mix. I find it extremely odd to
:05:22. > :05:30.see politicians talking about morality. Especially over tax. At
:05:30. > :05:40.the end of the day, it was politicians who produced these
:05:40. > :05:42.
:05:42. > :05:46.schemes on behalf of the more they asked,no, what happens in the
:05:46. > :05:49.Treasury is that they fight a permanent war against illegal tax
:05:49. > :05:53.evasion and awful but this Honourable tax-avoidance. Some of
:05:53. > :05:57.it, not all that, but some people who give money to charity are
:05:57. > :06:02.avoiding paying tax. They find that when the shut down one loophole,
:06:02. > :06:06.and clever accountants and clever lawyer's just devise a new one. The
:06:06. > :06:10.London Times has had a whole expose about using a film scheme devised
:06:10. > :06:14.by the Labour finance minister Gordon Brown a few years ago to
:06:14. > :06:19.help people invest. Could this explain why there are so many
:06:19. > :06:26.rubbish British films around? could be! But we are talking about
:06:26. > :06:30.real sums here. At this is wrong and immoral and inefficient. But
:06:30. > :06:34.citizens have a duty to pay their way. Money is making the point that
:06:34. > :06:38.affect a lot people, what is the politics of rich and poor. That is
:06:38. > :06:41.the politics we are in now, isn't it? Some politicians believe that
:06:41. > :06:45.the next election will be won by the squeeze Middle, the middle
:06:45. > :06:48.classes to look at the rich and thick, you are getting away with it,
:06:49. > :06:55.and those at the bottom thinking, you are getting away with it.
:06:55. > :07:01.important to hold the line and it is very important that we do not
:07:01. > :07:06.believe everything we read about people not paying tax. We do not
:07:06. > :07:10.want to go down the road of people not paying the tax. It rots the
:07:10. > :07:15.Bonn society. The squeeze Middle are being squeezed, but so were the
:07:15. > :07:18.poor. Am happy to say that British tax authorities have signalled that
:07:18. > :07:21.they are coming after these schemes at these people may end up paying
:07:21. > :07:27.twice the amount of money they thought they had saved in fancy tax
:07:27. > :07:30.avoidance schemes. But the politics of this for David Cameron, as
:07:30. > :07:33.Michael Wright he said, he was asked the question and answer it
:07:33. > :07:37.honestly, but the politics of it are not very good and it comes
:07:37. > :07:41.after a whole string of things that. Up to the class issue in Britain
:07:41. > :07:46.which can be very dangerous for David Cameron. The last time and
:07:46. > :07:55.was on this programme we were talking about a previous series of
:07:55. > :07:58.Government mess up. The pass the tax, the granny tax. Has Michael
:07:58. > :08:03.Rose, the Conservatives, and you would know the what precisely I am
:08:03. > :08:06.sure, but the Conservatives would say that we are not the party that
:08:06. > :08:10.the people of, of they are the party that the people want to
:08:10. > :08:15.govern because we are competent. But if you lose the competence then
:08:15. > :08:21.you are really in trouble. The they are really lucky that the election
:08:21. > :08:26.is three years away. Are they are losing it? People say it all the
:08:26. > :08:29.time, the worst week in the history of the Government, which is every
:08:29. > :08:33.week. I had a feeling that nobody in journalism under 50 should be
:08:33. > :08:37.allowed to use the word unprecedented, there should be a
:08:38. > :08:42.ban on it. Part of the Leveson inquiry into the press, they have
:08:42. > :08:46.had a very rough few months and you do worry that David Cameron does
:08:46. > :08:51.not have enough grip. On the other hand, he is dealing with the
:08:51. > :08:55.coalition, that is the voters for, not his. It is tricky territory.
:08:55. > :08:58.Where do you see the politics of rich and poor, which some people
:08:58. > :09:03.believe is a really important issue for the next election, because of
:09:03. > :09:12.the procession and austerity. interesting to see David Cameron
:09:12. > :09:17.talking about that, and many people believe that at the end of the day,
:09:17. > :09:22.why is he making these comments at this time now? From the political
:09:22. > :09:28.point of view, it is not the winning issue as far as he is
:09:28. > :09:32.consent. Especially when as far as people have been suggesting, if
:09:32. > :09:41.there are loopholes than it is the tax inspector's responsibility to
:09:41. > :09:45.close them. There are thousands of people like Jimmy Carr who are
:09:45. > :09:53.committing this offence, if you like, model of fines. It is not
:09:53. > :09:57.illegal. So it is not only one man, and the majority of these people
:09:57. > :10:02.believe that they belong to the Conservatives. I want to wrap this
:10:02. > :10:07.up, but people do not, of their nature, volunteer generally to pay
:10:07. > :10:12.more tax than they need to. Otherwise they would not go on
:10:12. > :10:16.booze cruises to buy cheap wine and cigarettes or actually make pension
:10:17. > :10:20.provisions when they can save money on their tax. Everyone filling in
:10:20. > :10:24.their tax return is going to try it pay as little tax as they can, but
:10:24. > :10:27.there is a structural inequality here when people with large sums of
:10:27. > :10:33.money can pay fancy accountants to come up with schemes like the one
:10:33. > :10:36.that Jimmy Park was in and saw people with a large bit of money
:10:36. > :10:39.get to avoid paying a large percentage of their income in tax.
:10:40. > :10:45.Let's move on, creased and has a Government that is committed to
:10:45. > :10:49.staying in the euro. -- Greece has the Government. Every time the euro
:10:49. > :10:56.question seems to be sold, the market's changed the question. Now
:10:56. > :11:01.it is Spain and Italy in the firing line. His the Euros saveable?
:11:01. > :11:05.am so fed up with this. What I am fed up with his that Greece was at
:11:05. > :11:08.the beginning scene is the reason for the crisis, the cause of the
:11:08. > :11:11.crisis. Then they became the victims of the crisis, and I have
:11:11. > :11:17.gone to the point where I cannot bear turning on the television and
:11:17. > :11:26.seeing another photograph of Greeks are queuing at sit kitchens. It
:11:26. > :11:31.becomes a kind of pornography of suffering. I cannot bear the words
:11:31. > :11:38.Grace. Then it was like the whole Eurozone hangs on the great
:11:38. > :11:44.question. They cannot move increase for BBC cameras. It does not depend
:11:44. > :11:48.on Greece, it depends on and John their coal and on the European
:11:48. > :11:52.Commission, they are the ones making the decisions. -- it depends
:11:52. > :11:57.on Angela Merkel. People are looking for the best solution to
:11:57. > :12:02.this and Angela Merkel goes on about this, more Europe, but beer
:12:02. > :12:06.and being a slow bowler, is this not just the fundamental flaw in
:12:06. > :12:10.the whole European project? People are voting for national interest
:12:10. > :12:16.because that is what the voters want and so to do a better solution
:12:16. > :12:19.it will not work. 15 years ago, the Germans and French decided on a pet
:12:19. > :12:22.project, the currency. Some of us said that he cannot have currency
:12:22. > :12:27.without the Government, and that is what this is about. The talk now
:12:27. > :12:33.about having a banking and political union, a fiscal union, in
:12:33. > :12:37.other words to have puzzled look at your budget. They are already
:12:37. > :12:43.looking at the creek budget to say, hey, you cannot do that. Because we
:12:43. > :12:47.are funding at the end of the day. They have gone it back to front, in
:12:47. > :12:51.my opinion. The Greeks are part of it, because if they're going to cut
:12:51. > :12:54.a deal, the Greeks must keep to their side of the deal and the
:12:54. > :12:58.worry about Mr Samaranch is that he has a record as foreign minister
:12:58. > :13:07.among other things of playing to the galley and not sticking by the
:13:07. > :13:11.deals that he makes in Brussels. Unlike our politicians! He is a
:13:11. > :13:15.real flip-flop. He was at a memorandum, then he was pro
:13:15. > :13:18.memorandum. Then he thought he might win it at a point where it
:13:18. > :13:22.was a tricky time to have an election. I completely agree with
:13:22. > :13:25.you, but here is a deal that was cut under tremendous pressure and
:13:25. > :13:29.that has failed. The austerity programme is not working and not
:13:29. > :13:33.only because Greece has not implemented the structural reforms,
:13:33. > :13:37.but it is not working because it is the wrong recipe. In the large
:13:37. > :13:42.scheme of things, that is part of it. Greece did not live up to their
:13:43. > :13:47.side of that idea, but other people do not, either. For Greece,
:13:47. > :13:51.contagion is the word. If Greece believes, then the market will say,
:13:51. > :13:55.anyone can leave. As William Hague put it, this is the burning
:13:55. > :14:00.building from which there are no exits. The whole thing could
:14:00. > :14:04.collapse. That is the problem. not think so. I think that Greece
:14:04. > :14:07.could leave, I think that could happen. I do not think it will
:14:07. > :14:14.happen anytime soon, there is no reason why it could not happen.
:14:14. > :14:19.Technically, it can happen. But TCC the permanent frustration of voters
:14:19. > :14:23.from increased to Britain and Germany who look at leaders getting
:14:23. > :14:26.together, or when there was a summit of the bed for a few days
:14:26. > :14:31.ago, and there has been the European summit next week, and yet
:14:31. > :14:41.nothing seemed to happen. What the journalist say is that the can has
:14:41. > :14:41.
:14:41. > :14:46.The counter argument would be that it is better that nothing happens
:14:46. > :14:53.then there is a real meltdown, where people throughout Europe are
:14:53. > :15:01.taking their money out of banks. is happening. They are moving into
:15:01. > :15:11.German banks. Spain is the critical one. But that is the rational move,
:15:11. > :15:12.
:15:12. > :15:19.isn't it? It is rational but it is quite fit -- quite dangerous.
:15:19. > :15:25.seems to me that people do not accept the fact that this is a
:15:25. > :15:34.European crisis, not a Greek crisis. This is a European crisis, not one
:15:34. > :15:42.country. I find it personally odd how five countries came together in
:15:42. > :15:45.the middle of the 1950s and agreed on a joint policy which grew into a
:15:45. > :15:52.common market and all of that. Of course they had reasons for that,
:15:52. > :15:56.that war and everything, and also to prosper. When it is good time
:15:56. > :16:03.you get together and work together but when it is a bad time you don't
:16:03. > :16:10.get together and work together. That is the bizarre thing. This is
:16:10. > :16:15.fostering of nationalism, which is countered to the original project.
:16:15. > :16:21.To be fair to Angela Merkel, she has been fairly consistent,
:16:21. > :16:31.actually. Also, she has said, my back pockets are not bottomless,
:16:31. > :16:31.
:16:31. > :16:40.and she has tried to impose criteria on membership that should
:16:41. > :16:45.have been imposed previously. -- our pockets. Her predecessors did
:16:45. > :16:50.break the rules but she has not. How could they have imposed these
:16:50. > :16:59.rules to begin with? You had these widely divergent economies which
:16:59. > :17:05.were supposed to divert -- to converge as this -- as if by magic.
:17:05. > :17:15.A country like Turkey for example are sane, thank God we have not
:17:15. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:22.joined. -- same. -- same. Britain has more wealth than Turkey, Turkey
:17:22. > :17:31.is half the size, less than Spain as an economy. They are thinking,
:17:31. > :17:39.thank God. But the consequences will affect Britain. And Turkey and
:17:39. > :17:43.the United States. Europe is the United States'' largest trading
:17:43. > :17:49.partner. That is Waikiki it down the road may be a lot better than
:17:49. > :17:58.some other things. -- kicking. people across the Arab world looked
:17:58. > :18:02.to Egypt as the biggest and most prosperous country. The election is
:18:02. > :18:06.of importance across the region and therefore across the world. Is
:18:06. > :18:11.Egypt slipping back from the path of democracy? It doesn't look very
:18:11. > :18:20.good, does it? You effectively have military control and no real signs
:18:20. > :18:30.that they want to give it up at any time soon. The military have a kind
:18:30. > :18:33.
:18:33. > :18:42.of silent coup, but really everything is on a slow-burn or. It
:18:42. > :18:48.will not necessarily kill democracy. Some people are calling, -- calling
:18:48. > :18:52.it, and I tend to believe in it, it is slow-motion movement towards
:18:52. > :19:02.democracy. People are learning every day. You are talking about an
:19:02. > :19:06.
:19:06. > :19:10.Asian which -- a nation which has had no democracy at any time.
:19:10. > :19:16.People have been asked to vote in five times in 15 months, this is a
:19:16. > :19:22.great shift. When I have talked to Egyptian friends in the past, they
:19:22. > :19:25.had said, we are optimistic in the long-term because there is clearly
:19:25. > :19:32.an appetite for democracy and people are happy to vote and they
:19:32. > :19:38.do so largely peacefully. Although there is great annoyance, they are
:19:38. > :19:44.still accepting the system broadly, is that fair? It is, but one
:19:44. > :19:54.element is always forgotten. The social coherence of the Egyptian
:19:54. > :19:55.
:19:55. > :19:59.society. And they are known for taking things in their stride.
:19:59. > :20:09.Talking about the presidential result, which has not been declared
:20:09. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:21.yet, people are saying, let's have them both! Wide just have one? We
:20:21. > :20:22.
:20:22. > :20:28.have each for three days and on the 7th day we protest. This is the
:20:28. > :20:38.mood. Another one says an old man ride it -- rides his donkey to the
:20:38. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:45.polling station. He says, I want to vote for Shafique, the old general,
:20:45. > :20:50.and my donkey will vote for the other guy. Do people underestimate
:20:51. > :20:55.just how difficult it is? We are used to democracy going back
:20:55. > :21:03.hundreds of years and Egypt is creating its first democracy in
:21:03. > :21:10.7,000 years. I think that foreign powers actually do recognise this.
:21:10. > :21:16.As this has been going on, since the vote, Hillary Clinton has come
:21:16. > :21:21.out and said, Look, we want the military to continue movement
:21:21. > :21:26.towards democracy. But most countries, the EU, America, have
:21:26. > :21:36.sat back and seemed -- seemed unwilling to wait. They may have
:21:36. > :21:42.
:21:42. > :21:48.been sensing some of that optimism. -- seemed to win. -- Gwilym. It is
:21:48. > :21:53.not easy to absorb having be a Muslim Brotherhood in the country.
:21:53. > :21:57.Change takes a long time and it is really slow. In Europe we are
:21:57. > :22:03.having this incredible pressure to change things by yesterday, which
:22:03. > :22:07.is just not possible. Looking as an outsider at Egypt, knowing how
:22:07. > :22:11.incredibly complex it must be, all of these different movements that
:22:11. > :22:17.came into the larger movement and how they can negotiate things
:22:17. > :22:25.between the Mall, that is actually true of every country. Between them
:22:25. > :22:30.all. Those things are invisible to journalism most of the time and
:22:30. > :22:35.invisible to electoral politics. is really good to hear optimism in
:22:35. > :22:41.this context. I am not a specialist in Egypt but, as a political
:22:42. > :22:45.reporter, you think, I don't like the idea of polarisation, the
:22:45. > :22:51.choice between the general and the Muslim Brotherhood. The Moslem
:22:52. > :22:56.Brotherhood have been talking a respectable game, so yes it does
:22:56. > :23:01.take time. Turnout seems to be falling in these elections.
:23:01. > :23:06.Democracy is sold as a panacea when it is really about hard work. The
:23:06. > :23:10.question always is, with military regimes who promise to reform, do
:23:10. > :23:16.they really mean it or are they fight think the old battles by
:23:16. > :23:22.another form? Mustapha, I just wanted to bring him up Syria and
:23:23. > :23:28.the shooting down of this Turkish plane. How do you see that in the
:23:28. > :23:34.politics of the region? This is an interesting development and totally
:23:34. > :23:40.different from everything else we have seen. The way it looks from
:23:40. > :23:49.both sides, especially from the Turkish side, the President said
:23:49. > :23:55.this morning that the pilot may have strayed into Syrian territory,
:23:55. > :24:05.which means that there is no drive to escalate the issue after this
:24:05. > :24:10.
:24:10. > :24:15.incident. Her prior to the crisis, the Turks used to if -- to inform
:24:15. > :24:25.Syria in advance but maybe that pilots would cross Syrian airspace.
:24:25. > :24:28.
:24:28. > :24:33.-- that may be. But it seems to be, let's talk it over, not escalate.
:24:33. > :24:41.Maria, this kind of thing does happen quite a lot. In happens all
:24:41. > :24:46.the time and planes don't usually get shot down. -- it happens.
:24:46. > :24:50.Presumably as Mustapha indicates there is no particular reason for
:24:50. > :24:54.this to escalate. Yes, we are always worried about people
:24:54. > :25:03.ratcheting up the tension and the stakes are much too high for an
:25:03. > :25:09.accident like this. Accidents can cause wars, we know this. As far as
:25:09. > :25:16.Syria is concerned, and Egypt as well, it is slow motion towards
:25:16. > :25:24.democracy. Unfortunately, in the general picture for serious it is
:25:24. > :25:31.slow motion towards civil war, I'm afraid. That is probably why
:25:31. > :25:38.everybody has taken the incident yesterday of shooting down this jet,
:25:38. > :25:43.let's not escalated because nobody is ready to take a higher position.
:25:43. > :25:49.That is where it is escalating, at home. Now you have outsiders, who
:25:49. > :25:53.at one point were hoping for a political solution, now giving arms