:00:05. > :00:15.the disease and two have died. I will be back in an hour. Now it
:00:15. > :00:31.
:00:31. > :00:34.Welcome to Dateline London. Is throwing out bogus students one way
:00:34. > :00:39.of dealing with Britain's immigration problems? The Prime
:00:39. > :00:45.Minister is told to be a man and not a mouse and the Paralympic
:00:45. > :00:53.Games. Will they change attitudes to disability? Our guest today a
:00:53. > :00:57.Grunenthal of Kayhan, and Vincent Magombe. Cracking down on
:00:57. > :01:01.immigration is popular with many voters and this week the British
:01:01. > :01:06.government took the decision to tell London Metropolitan University
:01:06. > :01:11.that its practices were so sloppy that 2000 students will have to
:01:11. > :01:15.leave the country. Do we agree that something must be done about bogus
:01:16. > :01:20.students and is this the right thing? Do you accept the principle
:01:20. > :01:27.that if students are here and there are not going to university,
:01:27. > :01:32.basically they are trying to get in as immigrants, that is wrong?
:01:33. > :01:37.a very great critic of anything immigration from the government
:01:37. > :01:43.here because I feel the premise that this has been done is not what
:01:43. > :01:49.we are being told. This to me is not resolving a problem. They are
:01:49. > :01:55.not trying to solve this problem of students coming here through visas,
:01:55. > :02:05.it is much more to do with what I would call political fanaticism.
:02:05. > :02:11.That type of ideological positioning of a party. A party who
:02:11. > :02:18.feel so antique immigration all the time and have agendas to crack down
:02:18. > :02:24.on people from outside. Many say this is responding to public mood.
:02:24. > :02:28.Why does this not happen when other governments are room place? Labour
:02:28. > :02:34.also used to crack down on foreign students but not in this very
:02:34. > :02:41.fanatical way. What is happening, I teach at the university as well so
:02:41. > :02:46.I am aware of a few students who might be able to be such a problem
:02:46. > :02:54.in terms of immigration, but the bulk of students, and that is where
:02:54. > :03:00.the problem is, are they really fighting immigrants who are causing
:03:00. > :03:07.problems and want to get all students to go away? The whole
:03:07. > :03:17.issue, this has to be seen in the context of wider immigration. I can
:03:17. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:21.tell you, if only my home country wants democratic today, is peaceful,
:03:21. > :03:26.Britain and America are not interfering and supporting
:03:26. > :03:36.dictators there, I would rather be at home. We have a beautiful
:03:36. > :03:37.
:03:37. > :03:43.education system but some of the type of quality that you get...
:03:43. > :03:50.Britain is very wrong here. The money that foreign students are
:03:50. > :03:56.paying is too much. It is true that there is a very competitive market
:03:56. > :04:02.to bring foreign students in and many universities are trying to get
:04:02. > :04:12.the money but on the other side, this is sending a message to
:04:12. > :04:15.
:04:15. > :04:22.students, do not come here. It is an immensely complex problem. It
:04:22. > :04:26.seems to me that this country has a deserved reputation for fair play
:04:26. > :04:31.and that the move that was made this week, which appears to put
:04:31. > :04:34.2000 students at London Metropolitan University and perhaps
:04:34. > :04:40.some thousands of others in other universities and colleges which
:04:40. > :04:46.have also heard on this issue at risk of being thrown out of the
:04:46. > :04:53.country when they are halfway through a degree will be widely
:04:53. > :04:58.recognised to be unfair and that doing that, if they actually do do
:04:58. > :05:07.it and it seems to me the story is not told yet. To do that what harm
:05:07. > :05:12.does he want a new responsible, control of immigration. It seems to
:05:12. > :05:21.mean it is a bad move. There is more to this story than only
:05:21. > :05:27.immigration. In 2009 it was London Metropolitan University had to pay
:05:28. > :05:32.the government �36 million because of bogus students. Since then they
:05:32. > :05:35.have realised that there was massive problems within their own
:05:35. > :05:41.administration said they brought in a new vice chancellor and he
:05:41. > :05:47.started cutting back on giving out a lot of courses, cutting back on
:05:47. > :05:51.courses, or releasing the staff and he has faced a lot of controversy
:05:51. > :05:54.because London Metropolitan is not only under threat from the
:05:54. > :06:00.government but it is being threatened by its own staff and the
:06:00. > :06:07.students as well. There was also the controversy when they banned
:06:07. > :06:10.having pubs or drinking on campus, this was in London Metropolitan and
:06:10. > :06:19.the Muslim student association brought out a letter condemning
:06:19. > :06:27.this move, condemning the ban. Why? Because they said they did not have
:06:27. > :06:33.enough money so they are bringing all these excuses, so it has been
:06:33. > :06:38.very controversial. Also something very interesting is that the amount
:06:38. > :06:48.of scholarship programmes that London Metropolitan has for foreign
:06:48. > :06:51.
:06:51. > :06:56.students. BBC World Service has a London Metropolitan course, but all
:06:56. > :07:01.of this at the end of the day comes back to internal London
:07:01. > :07:05.Metropolitan problems. Immigration policy has been a shambles in this
:07:05. > :07:13.country for years and years and years under successive governments.
:07:13. > :07:18.I never remember -- and remember a conversation I had with a Labour
:07:18. > :07:28.minister who was sitting in his office and piles of paper were
:07:28. > :07:30.
:07:30. > :07:35.bringing -- were brought in. These were papers that he wanted to see.
:07:35. > :07:39.Not only is it incompetent administration and government
:07:39. > :07:43.policy, the UK Border Agency is a shambles and the real problem is we
:07:43. > :07:48.have no proper controls in this country. We know roughly who is
:07:48. > :07:53.coming in but we have no idea who is going out. If we had a proper
:07:53. > :07:57.system of control, we would not have to go down this draconian
:07:57. > :08:03.policy we seem to be adopting in respect of this one slightly ropey
:08:03. > :08:08.University. It is totally disproportionate what the
:08:08. > :08:13.government is doing and it is the result of the government and the UK
:08:13. > :08:17.Border Agency that has landed us in this problem. I do not think it is
:08:17. > :08:22.the failures of the Border Agency, it is because they have brought in
:08:22. > :08:30.no rules and regulations. I spoke to London Metropolitan and they
:08:30. > :08:35.said that the UK Border Agency took a sample and they did not tell me
:08:35. > :08:41.how much of this sample belong to students before 2009, said this was
:08:41. > :08:45.a problem but also admitted before. However this force and would ever
:08:45. > :08:55.happens to this students, it is bad for the image of Britain's
:08:55. > :08:58.
:08:58. > :09:08.educational centre? Is that true? It mussy mussy -- much less
:09:08. > :09:15.
:09:15. > :09:19.welcoming? Be image of Britain by asked out there -- pass out there...
:09:19. > :09:28.If I am to look at it from an African point of view, first of all
:09:28. > :09:36.I know that we seem to be poor but the majority of students who come
:09:36. > :09:46.here come from good backgrounds. If foreign students said, they will go
:09:46. > :09:49.
:09:49. > :09:57.to Britain instead of Britain, you will see Britain crying for them.
:09:57. > :10:04.University leaders are out there in different countries, in India,
:10:04. > :10:09.Africa, literally going there, hold seminars trying to recruit students.
:10:09. > :10:15.We have to be careful not to play fast and loose with the facts.
:10:15. > :10:23.There was not just a public we set -- perception but a reality that a
:10:23. > :10:28.very large net in a word migration in this country has caused problems.
:10:28. > :10:31.There is a broad agreement that something has to be done. How to do
:10:31. > :10:37.that is very difficult but there was no doubt for anybody who lives
:10:37. > :10:43.in a student town that there has been abuse of student visas. The
:10:43. > :10:50.government has done something to curb the University above the chips
:10:50. > :10:57.shop. By the latest figures they have reduced the number of student
:10:57. > :11:01.visa approvals by 70,000. You are correct there is an immigration
:11:01. > :11:07.issue that any government would have to deal with, but there is a
:11:07. > :11:10.real point as to whether you should include students in that issue. If
:11:10. > :11:15.we had proper controls, we knew the students who were here and when
:11:15. > :11:22.they were going, it would be easier. This government is committed to
:11:22. > :11:25.reducing net immigration flows to 100,000. They have decided that
:11:25. > :11:30.students are a soft target and therefore that is why they are
:11:30. > :11:40.going at this in this way. I wish there was a conspiracy but I fear
:11:40. > :11:45.
:11:46. > :11:55.there is not. It is a total cock-up. These countries of the West are
:11:56. > :11:57.
:11:57. > :12:03.very good at trying to chased everyone else. But we know very
:12:03. > :12:12.well that Western countries, Britain included, you are very good
:12:12. > :12:17.at going out there to our countries, without any hindrance but you are
:12:17. > :12:27.very good at trying to tell everybody else to go away. And we
:12:27. > :12:31.totally disagree. A member of his own party challenge
:12:31. > :12:36.David Cameron to be a man not a mouse. He wants David Cameron to
:12:36. > :12:41.say he will build a third runway at Heathrow airport. But Nick Clegg
:12:41. > :12:51.wants a new tax on the rich. Should David Cameron should listen to all
:12:51. > :12:51.
:12:51. > :12:54.this wide advice? A third runway at Heathrow - what do you think?
:12:54. > :12:59.think that was totally irresponsible. Two things control
:12:59. > :13:05.government - one is the manifesto which they fight an election. You
:13:05. > :13:10.cannot just tear it up. And then there was also a coalition
:13:10. > :13:15.agreement on which this government West which also agrees they should
:13:15. > :13:20.be no third runway. The idea that you can tear up those agreements is
:13:20. > :13:25.absurd. Cameron's position is sensible in that he is waiting
:13:25. > :13:31.until after the next election. What will be interesting to see is
:13:31. > :13:37.whether the Conservatives will go in on a third runway ticket. My own
:13:37. > :13:42.view, Heathrow has been a disaster. It has been the wrong place and the
:13:42. > :13:49.wrong time and if you tried to keep on expanding it, it will get worse
:13:49. > :13:55.and worse. We need a proper new 61 way airport which can operate 24
:13:55. > :14:00.hours a day and that can only be done in the Thames estuary.
:14:00. > :14:07.Heathrow is frankly out of capacity. Since part of the argument is it
:14:07. > :14:11.has to keep with Frankfurt and Berlin and they have all done the
:14:11. > :14:20.same thing which is build a new airport away from the suburban
:14:20. > :14:28.Santa. Event if Heathrow says they will have a third runway, it will
:14:28. > :14:32.take 6-10 years to build and also the runway that they have planned,
:14:32. > :14:38.normal advanced engines of aircraft that we are talking about, they
:14:38. > :14:43.cannot use that runway so there were all these arguments that
:14:43. > :14:53.actually convinced a lot of people to go for the Thames estuary like
:14:53. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:58.the mayor of London. And more money but also another thing is parties
:14:58. > :15:03.when they raised an election nearing, they make promises and
:15:03. > :15:13.which party has not broken or torn up the platform? I can name a lot
:15:13. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:28.A new airport would help bring in all these new students! London does
:15:28. > :15:32.need a new airport, doesn't it? only that. We have always talk
:15:32. > :15:37.about -- talked about Uganda and the lack of democracy there. I
:15:37. > :15:42.would like to see a situation where you can day so democratic that our
:15:42. > :15:48.people can demonstrate and protest about this, but I feel that in
:15:48. > :15:56.terms of Western democracy, British democracy, something has become too
:15:56. > :16:06.excessive. If you tell people in Uganda that they're going to build
:16:06. > :16:08.
:16:08. > :16:15.an airport, and people want to protest, it is like semantics. On a
:16:16. > :16:23.more serious note, I think what we are seeing in these discussions is
:16:23. > :16:32.the condition of the so-called coalition government. They are very
:16:32. > :16:41.sick. They agree on some things, but now the Conservatives are just
:16:41. > :16:45.going their own way. What the legs -- what the Lib Dems say doesn't
:16:45. > :16:55.matter to them. Given the context of the American election campaign,
:16:55. > :16:56.
:16:56. > :17:06.it is interesting that we have a party leader... To use a French
:17:06. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:11.word, Nick Clegg is being wicked. A wealth taxes -- tax is very
:17:11. > :17:20.difficult to put into effect. It is unlikely that all parties will
:17:20. > :17:27.accept it. But it does help him with his current problem of a
:17:27. > :17:35.restive party who why increasingly unhappy about being locked into
:17:35. > :17:38.this coalition. I don't think we'll see a wealth tax. I don't think
:17:38. > :17:42.that the Liberal Democrats will break with the Conservatives,
:17:42. > :17:46.because the polls seem to indicate that would be a disaster for them.
:17:46. > :17:51.If I could say something about Heathrow, I don't have the interest
:17:51. > :17:57.that Adam does. I do not live under the flight path into Heathrow, and
:17:57. > :18:02.divided, if I was awakened at 4:30am by a in -- by an aeroplane
:18:02. > :18:08.coming of my roof, I might feel different. The objective situation
:18:08. > :18:12.does seem to be that this city and this country are in imminent need
:18:12. > :18:18.of more airport capacity. We agree on that. The question is where you
:18:18. > :18:21.put the capacity. There will have to be a creative solution. I live
:18:21. > :18:25.close to Stansted airport. They have a similar problem there. There
:18:25. > :18:30.are a lot of people who do not want expansion there. But something will
:18:30. > :18:35.have to be done somewhere. We cannot as a country afford to have
:18:35. > :18:44.another 10 years arguing about this, because there is no doubt that
:18:44. > :18:48.Heathrow as a hub will suffer. real issue on Heathrow is this,
:18:48. > :18:53.that if you put a third in for a -- runway in, it will still run out of
:18:53. > :18:58.capacity. If you destroy large parts of West London, you probably
:18:58. > :19:03.could do it, but democratically, it cannot be done. All three
:19:03. > :19:08.candidates for mayor for London were against it. The Conservatives
:19:08. > :19:12.are buried on -- nervous about going into the next election on
:19:12. > :19:21.April Heathrow platform. You should not build airports where it will
:19:21. > :19:28.cause great problems for millions of people. Every other developed
:19:28. > :19:32.country has moved to their bigger airports out of city centres.
:19:32. > :19:37.Something we have not discussed that is very compelling in the
:19:37. > :19:44.circumstances is the new deal at the end of the Second World War. A
:19:44. > :19:50.strong step in the direction of ending the Depression was the New
:19:50. > :19:59.Deal. It seems to me that a commitment to the study of an
:19:59. > :20:03.estuary airport which may indeed cost $50 billion or more would be a
:20:03. > :20:13.terrific idea because it would create thousands of jobs and could
:20:13. > :20:15.
:20:15. > :20:19.be financed by private investment. And it would not be taxing current
:20:19. > :20:25.taxpayers, putting the debt on the shoulders of of children yet unborn
:20:25. > :20:28.to pay for current consumption. It will be building an airport that
:20:28. > :20:32.our grandchildren and their children would use. In the last few
:20:32. > :20:38.minutes, I want to ask about the amazing spectacle of the
:20:38. > :20:42.Paralympics. Does it change the way that people regard disability in
:20:42. > :20:45.our society and what we should do about it? There is the irony that
:20:45. > :20:49.if you buy a wheelchair user in London it is still very difficult
:20:49. > :20:54.to get around using public transport. A lot of underground
:20:54. > :21:02.stations do not have elevators. think it does change attitudes
:21:02. > :21:05.because I think that people look at these amazing athletes. It is a
:21:05. > :21:10.reflection on the idea that disabled people cannot work. Of
:21:10. > :21:14.course they can, and that is the other side of the coin. The idea
:21:14. > :21:20.that these are somehow very separate people from the rest of us,
:21:20. > :21:25.that is not true at all. It is amazing the extent they have been
:21:25. > :21:30.able to perform in a way that people like myself do not have a
:21:30. > :21:39.hope in hell of doing! I think it does change attitudes. Do you
:21:39. > :21:44.agree? It is quite extraordinary, some of the contests. On the first
:21:45. > :21:54.day of the Paralympics, an Iranian man, a blind man in goalball,
:21:54. > :22:04.defeated China come and China have been the winners for years. This
:22:04. > :22:08.
:22:08. > :22:12.man had his eyes closed. That is amazing! I wonder, what is
:22:12. > :22:16.disability team that we were talking about it. You have this man
:22:16. > :22:21.he cannot see that he can go straight to the goal. There are
:22:21. > :22:24.others who can see, but they lack empathy. They lack empathy for
:22:24. > :22:31.people with less physical powers than they have all they lack
:22:31. > :22:37.empathy for people who won more deserving than they are.
:22:37. > :22:45.question that really comes to mind, and they do not really understand
:22:45. > :22:49.the history of the Paralympics and why it is made in the way it is,
:22:49. > :22:53.because Oscar Pistorius, the man from South Africa, was able to run
:22:53. > :22:59.with other people, but it is not about them doing something with
:22:59. > :23:06.everybody at that time. But I cannot understand how you have the
:23:06. > :23:13.Olympics, you do it, you finish it, completed, choose where it is going
:23:13. > :23:17.to go, and then we come with the Paralympics. This, for me, even if
:23:17. > :23:26.the idea was to give these people the opportunity to feel the same as
:23:26. > :23:30.everybody else, is a measure of segregation again. Do you want them
:23:30. > :23:40.to compete against each other?! They should be part of the main
:23:40. > :23:50.Olympics. It does not matter if you then have a special event the next
:23:50. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:56.day. I have talked to some people taking part to say this is the main
:23:56. > :24:02.Olympics! Then why not just organise it say that they take
:24:02. > :24:12.place at the same time? somebody like me who wants to see
:24:12. > :24:18.
:24:18. > :24:24.all these games, it would be difficult. It seems to me that they
:24:24. > :24:28.Paralympic Games and the Olympic Games bring us all together for
:24:28. > :24:31.still -- bring us all together. You can argue with the wonderful scenes
:24:31. > :24:37.we are seeing today from the Olympic Park End or the other
:24:37. > :24:41.side's? I was very moved when I saw the opening ceremony and saw all
:24:41. > :24:47.the countries who had been afflicted by war, people who had
:24:48. > :24:52.lost their limbs or best site in those was. People out there
:24:52. > :24:56.competing, and that is a wondrous thing to behold. In the minute we
:24:56. > :25:01.have left, we have heard all the complaints about aircraft the
:25:01. > :25:05.London, but are you proud of London? Yes, I am proud of London
:25:05. > :25:10.and I am proud of being British. Both the Olympic Games and the
:25:10. > :25:14.Paralympics have shown off British virtues to their best and the
:25:14. > :25:18.spirit in the Olympic Stadium was truly marvellous, and they think
:25:18. > :25:28.they recognise that it was well organised and it showed the best of
:25:28. > :25:30.
:25:30. > :25:37.British. I agree with you. My only concern is that Africa will never
:25:37. > :25:40.hold an Olympics. How many African Paralympic competitors are there?
:25:40. > :25:50.Many of them one! They were the most brilliant one as I have ever
:25:50. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:00.seen! Comparatively, they are very few. We have had a period of
:26:00. > :26:05.Western countries being down in the dumps and wondering when they will