:00:33. > :00:37.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. This week, we are looking
:00:37. > :00:41.at riots in Greece, budget in Portugal, and we will be asking if
:00:41. > :00:48.President Obama has done enough to stay President. We will also be
:00:48. > :00:53.looking at the latest bombing by Syrian jets of civilian populations.
:00:53. > :01:03.My guests today are Yasmine Allah by Brown, Unesco has, the
:01:03. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:09.Let's go first to Europe, because another leaders' summit this week
:01:09. > :01:13.on the euro crisis didn't seem to get very far. Meanwhile, there have
:01:13. > :01:15.been strikes in Greece over their austerity measures, and the
:01:15. > :01:21.Portuguese have introduced what some commentators say is a
:01:21. > :01:30.draconian budget. Maria, let's start in Greece. Did the strike
:01:30. > :01:36.achieve anything? I wouldn't call it a riot. By Greek standards, this
:01:36. > :01:41.was a small demonstration, not a riot. People are continuing to go
:01:41. > :01:44.on these demonstrations because not to go would be to rollover and play
:01:44. > :01:52.dead, not because they hope the demonstrations themselves will
:01:53. > :01:56.achieve anything. There is a real feeling of despair in Greece now. I
:01:56. > :02:02.have said this again and again, and I always say, we have reached the
:02:02. > :02:09.bottom, and we never do reach the bottom. What is more worrying is
:02:09. > :02:17.that they have a deep political crisis. The Rise Of Golden Dawn,
:02:17. > :02:25.the fascist party, it has now come third in political polls, it is
:02:25. > :02:33.committing assaults, it is opening offices. It is against mostly
:02:33. > :02:37.immigrants, but also gay people, leftists. Being in Parliament has
:02:37. > :02:45.given it a kind of legitimacy. It has given it access to the media,
:02:45. > :02:51.and it has given his money. Its MPs are talking about a new kind of
:02:51. > :02:55.civil war. And what is the public reaction to that? There is more
:02:55. > :03:00.sympathy for the right than they used to be, even among people who
:03:00. > :03:05.used to vote left. I have been trying to understand what this is
:03:05. > :03:10.about. It comes from a sense that the old political parties which
:03:10. > :03:16.drove the country to this state are hopelessly corrupt, and they have
:03:16. > :03:19.basically failed. In June, people said they were voting for golden
:03:19. > :03:29.dawn because they wanted them in Parliament to beat the others up,
:03:29. > :03:29.
:03:29. > :03:35.literally. But they are also handing out food - for Greeks only
:03:35. > :03:41.- and they have a project for jobs for Greeks only. They have
:03:41. > :03:44.vigilante forces in large towns, and they are very successful at
:03:44. > :03:51.infiltrating parts of the police so that the police don't do anything
:03:51. > :03:57.about right-wing violence. If you say in Athens that your apartment
:03:57. > :04:03.has been squatted by Athens -- immigrants, but the police will
:04:03. > :04:08.give people the phone number of Golden Dawn and say, we can't do
:04:08. > :04:13.anything, but these people will help you. The crippled state that
:04:13. > :04:19.we are seeing in many countries in Europe. Is the rise of the right
:04:19. > :04:24.the threat now? Is really scary to hear what you are saying. Something
:04:24. > :04:29.similar has happened here, but not to that extreme degree. You do find
:04:29. > :04:37.extreme right-wing parties have gone into communities and provided
:04:37. > :04:43.support and so on. What I find unforgivable are two things. Europe
:04:43. > :04:47.has had this history, and I think it just is a sham when they keep
:04:47. > :04:53.saying, never again, because we have seen what happened in Bosnia,
:04:53. > :04:59.we have seen how they capitulate. And when the left, and it does so
:04:59. > :05:05.even more shamefully here, it is confronting the right and the
:05:05. > :05:09.extreme right, it rolls over, and then what you have is a shift. It
:05:09. > :05:12.is almost worse to hear a mainstream politician saying it is
:05:12. > :05:15.all the fault of immigrants, which happens and all of our countries,
:05:15. > :05:19.then to hear a member of the BNP say that, because they would say
:05:19. > :05:23.that, wouldn't they? But when those clothes are worn by mainstream
:05:23. > :05:30.politicians, the game is lost. Her Mostafa, would you agree that the
:05:30. > :05:35.game is lost? And there is certainly a danger of that, but let
:05:35. > :05:40.us remember that this is always the case in every country, every
:05:40. > :05:48.society. In a dire economic situation, a high rate of
:05:49. > :05:55.unemployment, high rate of immigrants, the extreme right
:05:55. > :05:59.always rises to the top. We have seen that in every culture. Look at
:05:59. > :06:05.the Muslim world as well, why you have the extremist Taliban in
:06:05. > :06:10.Afghanistan. They have taken advantage of poverty, literacy, a
:06:10. > :06:19.political vacuum. With the question of the rise of the right, we need
:06:19. > :06:24.to touch on this subject, but we need to be careful, because not all
:06:24. > :06:29.European countries have this threat. In the countries that have facing
:06:29. > :06:34.austerity, the greatest danger is not only the rise of the right, it
:06:34. > :06:38.is the failure of the state. What is happening in Spain, the collapse
:06:38. > :06:44.of the state, we have independent movements in Catalonia becoming
:06:44. > :06:47.very strong. The failure of the state to provide, to comply with
:06:47. > :06:53.its responsibility towards its citizens, is very serious, because
:06:53. > :07:00.it is not just the threat of the right. It is many other threats. It
:07:00. > :07:04.is total anarchy, social unrest, that we need to look into. Give us
:07:04. > :07:08.a sense of what it is like in Portugal with the introduction of
:07:08. > :07:16.draconian budgets. The Portuguese seemed until this point to be
:07:16. > :07:23.resigned to what was happening, but that has changed. It has. It has
:07:23. > :07:31.been three years of austerity. Since 2009, the Government has
:07:31. > :07:37.introduced several austerity packages. And when the government
:07:37. > :07:43.announced new austerity measures to be introduced in the Budget in 10
:07:43. > :07:48.days, to be voted in Parliament, people said, enough. It reached a
:07:48. > :07:52.threshold of economic pain that people can't accept. The economic
:07:52. > :07:57.pain, to give you an idea, is what they wrote originally proposing to
:07:57. > :08:02.do is to increase national insurance contributions by 8% for
:08:02. > :08:09.all workers. For somebody on a minimal wage, which is not even 500
:08:09. > :08:17.euros per month, 8% as a lot. The government was forced to backpack
:08:17. > :08:22.on -- backtrack on their proposals. So they will increase income tax,
:08:22. > :08:27.and reduce the different bands so it is less regressive. And what
:08:27. > :08:33.happens is that people earning up to 1,000 euros per month will pay
:08:33. > :08:39.23% of income tax plus 8% of national insurance, so 30% of their
:08:39. > :08:46.income stays in taxes. On top of that there are new other taxes, on
:08:46. > :08:53.property. They are paying more for energy, more for transport, health
:08:53. > :08:57.care now is costly. It used to be free, almost free at the cost of
:08:57. > :09:02.delivery. Now if you go to the doctor you have to pay, and then
:09:02. > :09:09.you pay more and more for all the medical procedures that you need.
:09:09. > :09:14.Given that list, can the government survive? I don't think so. The
:09:14. > :09:18.coalition is going through a very fragile period. The smaller party
:09:18. > :09:25.in the coalition is starting to show some disquiet. Even the main
:09:25. > :09:32.party, there is a lot of dissension within its ranks. Very senior
:09:32. > :09:37.people are complaining. So we are really talking about early
:09:37. > :09:46.elections as soon as next year, as soon as September 2013, when
:09:46. > :09:53.Germany will have its own elections. We will leave that there, because I
:09:53. > :09:56.want to move to the United States. Most pundits think that President
:09:56. > :10:04.Obama won at the second debate, but has the President done enough to
:10:04. > :10:08.stay in the White House? I don't know. They are really so close,
:10:08. > :10:14.that I think anything that is going to make a difference, though I am
:10:14. > :10:17.not an American, and didn't know how you change your vote on this
:10:17. > :10:25.basis of a single debate, I cannot think like that, but it seems to me
:10:25. > :10:33.that to lose the vote of women as rapidly as President Obama has done,
:10:33. > :10:39.it's quite extraordinary. Her wide using he has? I don't know. I found
:10:39. > :10:46.him very disappointing. I would think he was the least worst
:10:46. > :10:55.candidate if I was voting. I think some of his foreign policies,
:10:56. > :10:58.Guantanamo still being open, all of that is problematic. But what is
:10:59. > :11:03.interesting years people think that what will now make the difference
:11:03. > :11:09.is everyone going from home to home, using them a offence, which is what
:11:09. > :11:15.his camp is good at. So it will be very interesting. But I can't even
:11:15. > :11:18.imagine what the world will be like if Mitt Romney wins. From a
:11:18. > :11:25.European point of view, Maria, what will the world be like if Mitt
:11:25. > :11:28.Romney wins? What I would like to say is I think Obama had a real
:11:28. > :11:33.chance at one point to put forward an alternative to austerity
:11:33. > :11:37.economics. He began to do it at the beginning of his term. He did run a
:11:37. > :11:44.similar programme. And then they came a point where he caved and
:11:44. > :11:53.gave in to Wall Street and the 1%. That has been disastrous for Europe
:11:53. > :11:59.as well, because if we don't have an alternative to this feeling,
:11:59. > :12:04.Europe is in trouble. The Left has caved in on every single issue, and
:12:04. > :12:09.nobody is thinking about the alternative models. Let's face it,
:12:09. > :12:12.this model has filed the world. When the IMF was punishing for
:12:12. > :12:18.current -- poor countries for decades that now the Europeans are
:12:18. > :12:28.being punished, we didn't care. It is a bust model, and they are
:12:28. > :12:29.
:12:29. > :12:35.clinging to it. Merkel, Obama, the lot of them. What would a change of
:12:35. > :12:39.President or President Obama remaining in the White House mean?
:12:40. > :12:45.The campaign in the United States all the time is on internal issues,
:12:46. > :12:48.basically the economy. On foreign policy, nothing at all. Regardless
:12:48. > :12:55.of the point of view of each presidential candidate on, let's
:12:55. > :13:01.say, the Middle-East or Israel or any issue overseas. So it is really
:13:02. > :13:05.the economy at the end of the day. And why it Obama in the second
:13:05. > :13:15.debate has made progress is because he dealt with that issue much
:13:15. > :13:16.
:13:16. > :13:19.better than Ronnie. -- Mitt Romney. I think Obama is right when he says
:13:19. > :13:26.that Mitt Romney's plan on the economy has one point only, which
:13:26. > :13:34.is helping the rich, which is basically the case. I think he now
:13:34. > :13:42.by saying that and being aggressive, has regained, he managed to regain
:13:42. > :13:51.some of his popularity. He is not only attracting more women, he has
:13:51. > :14:01.to recapture the vote of the people who voted him into 1008. -- in the
:14:01. > :14:05.
:14:05. > :14:07.2008. Who created the mess? The Bush administration. The the
:14:07. > :14:16.Republican-controlled Congress have voted against so many of the
:14:17. > :14:20.measures. His coolness has been a very much praise as a great asset
:14:20. > :14:24.in politics, but sometimes we have the impression that he doesn't care,
:14:24. > :14:33.that he feels no passion, and he has to come across as somebody who
:14:33. > :14:39.He has a slight difficulty in that he raised such difficult hopes with
:14:39. > :14:42.his first election, which he to quite a large extent let down - on
:14:42. > :14:49.health care and some things he did do well, but also areas a situation
:14:49. > :14:58.where the Republicans are willing to go all the way out to the right.
:14:58. > :15:02.The tea-party have been very effective at grass roots. And the
:15:02. > :15:07.Wruck -- the Democrats have not wanted to go out to the left too
:15:07. > :15:12.far. The demographics are going against them. They will not be able
:15:12. > :15:16.to run in four years as the same Republican Party. America will be
:15:16. > :15:22.much more a country of colour. you think these presidential
:15:22. > :15:26.debates make any difference, at the end of the day? I am finding myself
:15:26. > :15:35.really turning against these debates now. We saw what Nick Clegg
:15:35. > :15:40.did with his moment of triumph. Anybody who is a good performer can
:15:40. > :15:44.sway opinion, and actually, and a sense it is quite dangerous,
:15:44. > :15:49.because a good performer can win people, and Nick Clegg could win
:15:49. > :15:53.people, so I think these debates, although it is seen as a great
:15:53. > :15:57.democratic advancement, I don't think they are. We need all of
:15:57. > :16:07.these guys to go to town halls and talk to people without the
:16:07. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:24.mediators. Then we might see a The situation in Syria is not
:16:24. > :16:30.getting any better. Is it going to get worse? It is already bad. It is
:16:30. > :16:40.getting worse by the day. Unfortunately, what we do not see
:16:40. > :16:42.
:16:42. > :16:47.and do not hero of -- here off other stories of the people every
:16:47. > :16:54.day you live in the countryside. The population there is suffering
:16:54. > :17:04.every day people stop Mrs, unfortunately, not considered to be
:17:04. > :17:12.
:17:12. > :17:21.important. Governments do nothing. People in Syria are desperately
:17:21. > :17:31.waiting for some action on this front to stop the murderous regime.
:17:31. > :17:44.
:17:44. > :17:50.He mentioned the bombing by Nicks. -- Nicks. They throw primitive
:17:50. > :17:55.bombs from the top of a building and the building collapsed on the
:17:55. > :18:00.population inside. The stories are not reported. It is happening on a
:18:00. > :18:04.daily basis. It is very difficult for journalists to get in. I do not
:18:04. > :18:12.agree with you that the media is not reporting. The British media
:18:12. > :18:15.has done its best, I think. There was a wonderful programme about the
:18:16. > :18:23.number of Syrians to have disappeared. What I cannot stand is
:18:23. > :18:29.that the Arab countries, yet again, even after the Arab Spring, are
:18:29. > :18:34.keeping so close to offer. As you know, I am very pro Palestinian,
:18:34. > :18:40.but if Israel was doing this, the whole of the Arab world would be up
:18:40. > :18:49.in arms about it. Why are Muslims and Arabs not standing up with the
:18:49. > :18:53.same rage against Syria? It is a shame on our part. Absolutely. The
:18:54. > :19:01.targets and the politics are totally different in Syria than
:19:01. > :19:09.with Arab-Israel. The war in Syria is regional and international.
:19:09. > :19:18.Syria is an international forum where regional powers are fighting
:19:18. > :19:22.over their own interests. So does the rest of the world. Turkey has
:19:22. > :19:26.been appealing for NATO to do something. Turkey is a very
:19:26. > :19:31.important member of NATO. The appeals of the Turkish government
:19:31. > :19:35.have fallen on deaf ears. No-one wants to hear about even creating a
:19:35. > :19:42.buffer zone to do with the humanitarian crisis in Syria.
:19:42. > :19:47.Complete silence. Was at this point can be done? You talked about it
:19:47. > :19:51.being a battleground for foreign forces. We have had various
:19:51. > :19:57.different kinds of intervention over the last 15 years. What would
:19:57. > :20:03.work? What needs to happen? main reason for the survival of the
:20:03. > :20:09.regime over what is left of its authority in the country is the
:20:09. > :20:17.nature of the war taking place at the moment in Syria. When Russia
:20:17. > :20:23.uses its veto, for example, which it has done three times during the
:20:23. > :20:33.crisis in seven months, which is a record, practically, it is giving
:20:33. > :20:35.
:20:35. > :20:42.to the regime time to go on killing. But what about the opposition? He
:20:42. > :20:52.was supporting the Free Syrian Army? Again, support is not enough.
:20:52. > :20:54.
:20:54. > :21:01.The material support, I mean, weapons, money and all that. The
:21:01. > :21:09.safe havens own should have been introduced a long time ago. -- the
:21:09. > :21:15.safe haven zone. If you want to support the opposition, the first
:21:15. > :21:19.step is to recognise their position with physical means. Have we seen
:21:19. > :21:24.any European or international figures visiting these so-called
:21:24. > :21:30.liberated areas? We have not seen anybody. What about the danger of
:21:30. > :21:39.this? What about the danger of it spreading, in the region,
:21:39. > :21:45.especially to Lebanon? The danger of this conflict spreading is huge.
:21:45. > :21:50.Turkey is very worried about the contagion effect with the Kurdish
:21:50. > :21:55.zone. They're worried about the Syrian refugees and what they will
:21:55. > :22:03.do to the Turkish Alawite groups. They are worried about the their
:22:03. > :22:13.own national stability. The Turkish dimension is very important.
:22:13. > :22:14.
:22:14. > :22:22.Lebanon is a dangerous place now. Coming back to what Mustapha said,
:22:22. > :22:30.I do not -- I disagree when he says it is a regional thing. We condemn
:22:30. > :22:37.America when America supports Israel. Why is there not any severe
:22:37. > :22:42.condemnation of Russia with the same loud voice? The UN has failed.
:22:42. > :22:49.International condemnation has failed. When people are dying, it
:22:49. > :22:53.does not matter what the inside argument suave -- 1/2. Arabs and
:22:53. > :22:59.Muslims in particular need to stand up for those people. We are not
:22:59. > :23:05.doing that. Maria, can I bring you in here with
:23:05. > :23:09.the failure of Europe? Has Europe failed? Yes, Europe is looking
:23:09. > :23:13.inwards to its own problems and is completely failing to be any sort
:23:14. > :23:23.of international force, which was part of the idea in the first place
:23:24. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:28.for the you -- for the EU. It is failing. Some sort of ceasefire or
:23:28. > :23:35.humanitarian help, he was going to impose that when the UN is
:23:35. > :23:40.powerless? Who are the international forces representing
:23:40. > :23:48.in the opposition? These details can be worked out if they agree on
:23:48. > :23:53.the principle, first of all. This conflict is spreading out because
:23:53. > :23:56.of the regional players who are within Syria. It is littered --
:23:56. > :24:05.logical to see this spreading out to other countries. What do you
:24:06. > :24:13.mean by that? You have Turkey, Iran, the Gulf states, they are all
:24:13. > :24:18.fighting their war of interest in Syria. Is that the difference
:24:18. > :24:28.between Syria and the other countries we saw within the Arab
:24:28. > :24:32.Spring? You have an uprising in Syria which starts at about 19
:24:32. > :24:39.months ago now. The first nine months was quite peaceful. People
:24:39. > :24:46.did not even demand the collapse of the regime or getting rid of it.
:24:46. > :24:52.Their demands were merely reform. The regime itself did not want to
:24:52. > :24:59.respond positively to these demands and turned the game around. Bashar
:24:59. > :25:06.al-Assad militarised the situation. That is his policy. He turned it to
:25:06. > :25:10.his advantage. He has succeeded in that so far. Eunice, what about the
:25:10. > :25:17.United States? I don't think they will do anything before the
:25:17. > :25:24.election. Everyone is afraid after failure in Libya, Afghanistan and
:25:24. > :25:34.Iraq, how can you persuade the American people that for an
:25:34. > :25:40.American intervention in Syria? This is an important question.
:25:40. > :25:43.European politicians need to think about how can the West to intervene