:00:02. > :00:05.television history. I will be back with a full news
:00:05. > :00:15.bulletin at 1 o'clock. Now it is time for Dateline London with Gavin
:00:15. > :00:27.
:00:27. > :00:31.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. No agreement on the
:00:31. > :00:35.European Union budget and no surprise either. A ceasefire
:00:36. > :00:40.between Israel and the Palestinians, but for how long? And the Czech
:00:40. > :00:46.headed by a woman where women cannot become bishops. My guests
:00:47. > :00:55.are Michael Goldfarb from global post .com, Polly Toynbee from the
:00:55. > :00:59.Guardian, Abdel Bari Atwan from Fajr-5 and -- All-Quds and Saul
:00:59. > :01:06.Zadka it from a London. Does the failure of this week's
:01:06. > :01:11.European budget summit get to the core of the failure of the you,
:01:11. > :01:16.that despite the talk of European solidarity, every country Act's in
:01:16. > :01:20.its own national self interest? think it will get resolved in the
:01:20. > :01:25.end but it has to go through some more painful phases. A good thing
:01:25. > :01:29.is it looks like Britain is not isolated. It looked like Cameron
:01:29. > :01:33.was marching off to Europe to be the only one but he was rescued by
:01:33. > :01:37.Angela Merkel who owes us nothing, owes Cameron nothing, but she
:01:37. > :01:42.reached out and hand to him because she was determined that Britain
:01:42. > :01:47.should not be isolated at this stage. It was highly diplomatic and
:01:47. > :01:51.a very generous move on her part. She does not want Britain to leave.
:01:51. > :01:57.I fear we are heading for the exit and she wants Britain to hold on
:01:57. > :02:03.which was very magnanimous. could say it was Germany's wide
:02:03. > :02:08.interests to keep Britain in because Germany is a party in tune
:02:08. > :02:13.with the kind of thinking. David Cameron went to Brussels with a big
:02:13. > :02:17.gun in his hand, the idea that Britain may vote for quitting the
:02:17. > :02:21.European Union altogether and it looked more serious than it was
:02:21. > :02:26.before. Everybody was worried that if they could not reach a
:02:26. > :02:30.compromise with Britain, the British people will leave the union.
:02:30. > :02:35.It should be emphasised that a new front line has been established
:02:35. > :02:38.within the European Union, not just that Britain is not alone, Germany
:02:38. > :02:42.is somewhere in the middle but tends to agree with the British
:02:42. > :02:47.approach of keeping austerity and keeping the budget. The French are
:02:47. > :02:53.more isolated than ever before. They have lost their reliance. They
:02:53. > :02:57.tended to form what I call a Club Med of countries like Italy and
:02:57. > :03:02.Spain. Eventually I think we will be heading through a few necessary
:03:02. > :03:05.motions as it happened seven years ago. They reached an agreement on
:03:05. > :03:08.the budget after only three meetings. Eventually they reached
:03:08. > :03:13.an agreement in which Britain would be able to keep the rebate and the
:03:13. > :03:18.French would be happy as well. There would be a compromise in
:03:18. > :03:22.which $20 billion or Euros would be slashed out of the Budget.
:03:22. > :03:28.would you see this? There are some people who think this is all a bit
:03:28. > :03:32.of a sideshow. Economically, the big picture is Spain is in trouble,
:03:32. > :03:40.Spain continues to be in trouble, what do you do about Greece, and
:03:40. > :03:47.the budget, although it sounds like a lot of money, it is small change?
:03:47. > :03:53.Definitely. A trillion Euro-budget is a huge budget. A problem is
:03:53. > :03:59.Greece needs a lot if inside reforms -- the EU needs a lot of
:03:59. > :04:03.inside reforms to distribute this money. For example, you distribute
:04:03. > :04:09.40 % of the money to the agricultural sector which produces
:04:09. > :04:15.only 2% of the GDP and employs only 5% of the population. That is a
:04:15. > :04:20.disaster. The same thing, this continuation between East Europe
:04:20. > :04:26.and West Europe. The 1 Hector of land in Belgium or the Netherlands
:04:26. > :04:29.earns three or four times compared to a heck tear in Latvia, for
:04:29. > :04:38.example. In order to keep the European Union together, you have
:04:38. > :04:43.to reform it. When these legalisation laws were introduced,
:04:43. > :04:49.there were only 15 countries. Now there are 27 countries. There are
:04:49. > :04:53.newcomers, new challenges, as you mention, new economic problems. Now
:04:53. > :04:57.there are 25 million unemployed. The budget is not distributed in a
:04:57. > :05:05.way to create jobs for those people. This is the real challenge facing
:05:05. > :05:10.the European Union. Michael? I took aside from this the narrative going
:05:10. > :05:19.in from the British press was once again, lonely in the trenches, the
:05:19. > :05:23.Brits were going to strike a blow for Fiscal decency. Just Fiscal
:05:23. > :05:27.decency and honour. But I was thinking, they will work this out.
:05:28. > :05:32.We had three bites of the cherry last time. But really, does it
:05:32. > :05:36.compare to what is going on in America? We are driving towards a
:05:36. > :05:40.fiscal cliff. If the US cannot settle its budget, one single
:05:40. > :05:48.nation, if it cannot settle its budget by the end of the year, it
:05:48. > :05:52.will destroy the world economy. is at least two nations, isn't it?
:05:52. > :05:57.This is a very serious point. Their arguments in Britain constantly
:05:57. > :06:01.about a federal system and we do not want any part of it. Look at
:06:01. > :06:05.the United States. There are many reasons for individual nations, big
:06:05. > :06:09.individual nations to come apart at the scenes. It is a bit of a
:06:09. > :06:13.sideshow but it speaks to the disunity in America that there are
:06:13. > :06:21.now these petitions for a cessation and petitioners are being backed by
:06:21. > :06:26.one of the candidates for the Republican Party. It is the same
:06:26. > :06:36.dispute going on in America, the dispute between the posteriors and
:06:36. > :06:41.the Keynesians. That is where France stands. -- austerity.
:06:41. > :06:48.Francois Hollande is standing very firm on the idea that Europe should
:06:48. > :06:52.be expansionary. Europe should be investigated -- should be investing
:06:52. > :07:02.and dealing with the huge crisis of unemployment so cutting back at
:07:02. > :07:06.this time is not the right time. allows the people in favour of
:07:06. > :07:11.austerity to command the whole debate. It is much more bloated in
:07:11. > :07:15.Brussels than it is in the US where you have bureaucracy at the
:07:15. > :07:23.national and state level. That gets over emphasised. It is very visible
:07:24. > :07:30.when you go to Brussels. It is the Eurocrat I fear. That is a very
:07:30. > :07:37.small part of it. It is easy to say, why are they building a big new
:07:37. > :07:46.museum? It is a tiny part of what it is about. The fat cats of the
:07:46. > :07:52.so-called European bureaucracy, 40,000 people. When it is money
:07:52. > :07:55.from the police budget, it is difficult for Cameron to argue.
:07:55. > :08:02.think Cameron would support the assault on Brussels.
:08:02. > :08:08.The next move on. Two views in caricature in the Middle East,
:08:08. > :08:12.Israel must guarantee the security of its people. No, Israel's
:08:12. > :08:16.settlement building has left an entire people desperate with little
:08:16. > :08:20.hope. Whichever side you take, is there any way of bonding -- moving
:08:20. > :08:25.beyond a ceasefire to real peace negotiations or are we moving into
:08:25. > :08:31.the next round of one unsolvable bloody conflict. Give us the
:08:31. > :08:38.Israeli view at the moment? It has frozen by the ceasefire. How do
:08:38. > :08:42.Israelis see it right now? I think they see it as an unsatisfactory
:08:42. > :08:46.agreement, flimsy, open to interpretations, certainly not
:08:46. > :08:51.something that people who live close to the border with Gaza were
:08:51. > :08:55.wishing for. They think eventually, within the next two or three years,
:08:55. > :08:58.we will be sitting round this table and discussing the same problem
:08:58. > :09:03.again. There will definitely be another outburst of hostilities.
:09:03. > :09:09.What is worse, it was all predictable. Simply people saw it
:09:09. > :09:13.as something which was inevitable. However, because there was not a
:09:13. > :09:21.decisive victory on either side, people came to the conclusion that
:09:21. > :09:24.eventually both sides would have to come to another shoulder. Does
:09:24. > :09:29.everybody see it will happen again in a couple of years unless
:09:29. > :09:34.something? Is there something? There are two options. One is an
:09:34. > :09:40.agreement between Israel and Hamas, but this will force Hamas took
:09:40. > :09:44.recognise Israel's right to exist, the notorious charter which
:09:44. > :09:48.stipulates the eradication of Israel altogether. The other
:09:48. > :09:53.alternative is there will be another assault by the Israelis
:09:53. > :10:03.that will dismantle the entire regime from Gaza altogether. Both
:10:03. > :10:08.options are not likely. What is the Palestinian view? The Palestinian
:10:08. > :10:15.view is clear. 165 people were killed in the last bombardment.
:10:15. > :10:21.1,000 were injured. We were told this war has two options. The first
:10:21. > :10:28.one is for Netanyahu to enhance his chances on the coming election in
:10:28. > :10:35.January so it means he, in every election, the election campaign on
:10:35. > :10:42.the West at least, where Israel belongs, kissing children in order
:10:42. > :10:45.to raise popularity, Netanyahu sending warplanes to kill children
:10:45. > :10:50.and raised his popularity and gain more seats in the Knesset. The
:10:50. > :10:56.other thing we are told is Israel did this bombardment detest the
:10:56. > :11:02.Iranian missiles on the position of Hamas. Again, Netanyahu, the
:11:02. > :11:08.Israeli government, using Gaza as guinea pigs and its children as
:11:08. > :11:15.guinea pigs. And using this two- Test the Iranian missile. Honestly,
:11:15. > :11:25.I am surprised the Israeli who bought 300 nuclear warheads and
:11:25. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:33.thousands of war planes saying they are doing this for self-defence.
:11:33. > :11:36.People who impose a blockade on Gaza for ten years and occupy and
:11:36. > :11:41.Palestinian dance, this is self- defence? They do not deserve self-
:11:41. > :11:45.defence. Two things. The first thing is it is no longer possible
:11:45. > :11:51.to talk about this without mentioning the constant din, even
:11:51. > :11:58.if they do not kill anybody, the constant din from rockets from
:11:58. > :12:03.Hamas and Islamic Jihad. But how many people were killed? I said
:12:03. > :12:07.there were two things. Her 165 people were killed, women and
:12:07. > :12:11.children. That is not what we were talking about. We were talking
:12:11. > :12:16.about what led up to this. The second thing is, you bring up the
:12:16. > :12:24.idea that this is a test for the Iranian... That is what we were
:12:24. > :12:30.told by the New York Times. It came out of Washington, it quoted the
:12:30. > :12:35.usual suspects, Dennis Ross, I would not quote that article too
:12:35. > :12:40.much. I do not think that was the intention. It was without doubt a
:12:40. > :12:43.test but that was not why Israel had this particular military action.
:12:43. > :12:50.You have got to look back at what has been happening, particularly
:12:50. > :12:54.over the last three or four more -- for months, and the intensity of
:12:54. > :13:01.rocket attacks increased and that some point, there has got to be a
:13:02. > :13:08.response. The response to kill 165 people. 1,000 were injured. Houses
:13:08. > :13:12.were destroyed. A nobody would doubt this was disproportionate,
:13:12. > :13:16.baptistry. Nobody would doubt that the Palestinians started it. For
:13:16. > :13:21.those of us who stand back who are not there, we look at it and say,
:13:21. > :13:25.there will never be peace and will both sides decide they want it,
:13:25. > :13:29.until both sides get hired enough or have sensible enough leaders or
:13:29. > :13:33.the Israelis stop killing Hamas leaders who are the most
:13:33. > :13:38.experienced and the ones they have talked to in the past. We look at
:13:38. > :13:42.South Africa and you say, how can it be? You look at the torture
:13:42. > :13:46.endured by black South Africans and they ended up making peace. They
:13:46. > :13:50.ended up finding a way to do that. You look at the bitterness for
:13:50. > :13:54.generations in Northern Ireland and they managed to do it. That comes a
:13:54. > :13:58.time, you hope, and every impossible to speak where both
:13:58. > :14:02.sides can just about see that it is enough in their interests. But it
:14:02. > :14:12.also needs an outside person to step in and help and we have not
:14:12. > :14:17.
:14:17. > :14:22.The story is simple for everybody to see. Rockets were launched from
:14:22. > :14:28.within residential neighbourhoods in Gaza, into Israel, for the last
:14:28. > :14:35.few years. Thousands of rockets. And Iranian made missiles were
:14:35. > :14:41.heading into similar populations. Can you see the point? Israel can
:14:41. > :14:45.kill their areas leaders of Hamas, but it has not done anything but
:14:45. > :14:51.leave the organisation without a particular figurehead. You don't
:14:51. > :14:59.solve problems by creating more enemies.
:14:59. > :15:04.To end man with a Hannah, every problem looks like a nail. -- to a
:15:04. > :15:14.man with a hammer. To his well, this is how it looks. The answer
:15:14. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:30.Just one second... If the intent of Hamas was to cause
:15:30. > :15:33.
:15:33. > :15:42.as many Israeli casualties and fatalities as possible, we have to
:15:42. > :15:47.allow Israel to create another Iron Dome? You can't compare fatalities.
:15:47. > :15:57.The intent of Hamas was to kill thousands more. They want to kill
:15:57. > :15:59.
:15:59. > :16:08.the entire country of Israel. What if something went wrong? No, no,
:16:08. > :16:14.you made a false accusation. In order to improve their chance in an
:16:14. > :16:21.election... Let me answer you! Gentleman! We
:16:21. > :16:25.are a civilised programme. You are saying that we should talk.
:16:25. > :16:34.You mentioned the example of South Africa, which I respect. I hope we
:16:34. > :16:44.can have this example applied to our case. But, the PLO has been in
:16:44. > :16:44.
:16:44. > :16:54.talks with Israel for 20 years. It wants to concede 18% of historic
:16:54. > :17:01.Palestine. What more can you do? More killing? It is humiliating. He
:17:01. > :17:06.is saying that Hamas is putting missiles aside the population. Gaza
:17:06. > :17:16.is 150 square miles. It is populated by 2 million. Let be
:17:16. > :17:20.
:17:20. > :17:28.complete. -- let me complete. You can't find any space, empty space,
:17:28. > :17:37.to put missiles in. That is the problem.
:17:37. > :17:43.Why are this smuggling thousands of rockets? OK, OK. A final word,
:17:43. > :17:49.Michael. Who, outside, asked to... It is
:17:49. > :17:56.always the US. Until Hillary Clinton cut short her trip, nothing
:17:56. > :18:03.was going to happen. Question. His Mohamed Morsi capable of being the
:18:03. > :18:08.new power-broker here? For 24 hours, he was the big hero in the world.
:18:08. > :18:11.Now he seizing dictatorial powers, it seems, in Egypt.
:18:12. > :18:16.We don't have time to talk about that, although it is interesting.
:18:16. > :18:22.The head of the Church of England is a woman, the Queen. Some of the
:18:22. > :18:27.most admired figures are also women. In between, no women bishops or
:18:27. > :18:33.archbishops. To those of us who are not part of the Church, do we have
:18:33. > :18:40.a right to comment on this? I know there's no Church of England, to
:18:40. > :18:44.hear. And I know you are a humanist. I am president of the British
:18:44. > :18:52.humanist Association. It goes back to the Middle East. We look at all
:18:52. > :18:59.of these religions that have always been defined by being anti-women.
:18:59. > :19:04.Whether it is Muslims, Christians, keeping women out has been the name
:19:04. > :19:14.of the game. This is the last remnant of the Church of England's
:19:14. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:18.agents are routes -- ancient roots, and make it be up rooted soon. As a
:19:18. > :19:27.non-believer, it comes out of feminism.
:19:27. > :19:31.There are female rabbis. Do you think... An interesting thing is
:19:31. > :19:35.that surely members of an organisation have got, to a degree,
:19:35. > :19:41.a right to choose how their organisation is run. If they choose
:19:41. > :19:47.not to have women doing something, the rest of us who are not in it,
:19:47. > :19:56.do we have any axe to grind? Only a tiny minority in the Church
:19:56. > :20:00.of England voted against women bishops. In many ways, a vocal,
:20:00. > :20:05.Conservative minority imposed its will. It means something is faulty
:20:05. > :20:09.in the system in which such decisions are being past. I can't
:20:09. > :20:17.understand why they had to wait until 2015 to debate the matter
:20:17. > :20:22.again. Bacon debated again next week if they want to! -- they can.
:20:22. > :20:28.Brings us to the question of whether to separate the church and
:20:28. > :20:33.state in this country. -- this brings. Maybe it is time to
:20:33. > :20:37.understand that the decision last week has been really a blow to the
:20:37. > :20:42.Church of England, which suffers from a diminishing number of
:20:42. > :20:46.worshippers anyway. They have to do something about it.
:20:46. > :20:52.I have spoken to some clergy in the Church of England. Some of them are
:20:52. > :21:00.so fed up of this issue, year after year. They wanted to be sold.
:21:00. > :21:06.I'm happy because we, as Muslims, we are backward just like the
:21:06. > :21:16.Church of England! We don't have bishops. We are equal for the first
:21:16. > :21:18.
:21:18. > :21:28.time. That is fantastic! You don't have any women in MAM's?
:21:28. > :21:34.
:21:34. > :21:42.-- in MAM. --imams? Inter-war religion, he has to lead
:21:43. > :21:47.the prayer. -- in at our religion. You can't have a woman in the front
:21:47. > :21:51.leading the prayer. It is a different culture. It is a
:21:51. > :22:01.different prayer. And it all comes from the wicked
:22:01. > :22:07.heart of Jerusalem. Michael. One of the things about this is,
:22:07. > :22:13.yes, everybody has a right because it is an established church and
:22:13. > :22:17.reflects on the nation as a whole. Second, there has to be more
:22:17. > :22:26.political nous at the top of a political organisation, which the
:22:26. > :22:36.Church of England is. It came into being, belittle at its root. --
:22:36. > :22:36.
:22:36. > :22:43.political. Why does the Church of England have
:22:43. > :22:47.to have the privilege of being the established Church?
:22:47. > :22:54.We are the only democracy, so- called, but is actually a theocracy,
:22:54. > :23:01.where we have, as part of our constitution, a religious person
:23:01. > :23:05.making our law. Have you been to Iran?!
:23:05. > :23:12.The Prince of Wales has already said that he wants to defend the
:23:12. > :23:17.faith. He takes that into account. Women are calling for a right to
:23:17. > :23:27.drive in some parts of the Muslim world. We don't have a movement for
:23:27. > :23:34.them to be part of the religion. I would rather drive!
:23:34. > :23:41.Convert to Islam and I will guarantee it for you!
:23:41. > :23:47.There will be somebody who discovers that Mohammed allows
:23:47. > :23:53.women to be part of Islam. The point is there are people who
:23:53. > :24:01.are so irritated, that it might come back quickly. So you point
:24:01. > :24:10.about why put it of the 2015, it looks like that might not happen.
:24:10. > :24:14.-- put it off until 2015. Some people are saying they have
:24:14. > :24:21.been born into the controversy. They have got other controversies,
:24:21. > :24:27.too. There is gay marriage. It is always backwards.