:00:04. > :00:14.thousands of elderly residents. There will be a full news bulletin
:00:14. > :00:22.
:00:22. > :00:25.at one o'clock. Now it's time for Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:25. > :00:31.London. The biggest shake-up for the British press in decades - but
:00:31. > :00:34.will it require new laws? Is the internet un-regulateable? And is
:00:34. > :00:37.the Egyptian revolution in danger? My guests today are Abdallah
:00:37. > :00:42.Homouda the Egyptian writer, Marc Roche of Le Monde, Isabel Hilton of
:00:42. > :00:44.China Dialogue and Steve Hewlett of the Media Show.
:00:44. > :00:47.After months of deliberations, hundreds of witnesses and
:00:47. > :00:50.submissions, a British judge, Lord Justice Leveson has made the most
:00:50. > :00:53.sweeping recommendations on press reform in decades - some would say
:00:53. > :00:56.centuries. The result has been a political split between those, like
:00:56. > :00:59.Leveson himself, who say it demands a new law - and those, including
:00:59. > :01:02.the Prime Minister, who believe otherwise. But after a series of
:01:02. > :01:12.scandals involving the press, TV and the internet, is a free media
:01:12. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:24.incompatible with anything other than a voluntary code of conduct?
:01:24. > :01:29.Do you need compulsion, otherwise the press will not act responsibly?
:01:29. > :01:35.At every turn, when there has been an inquiry into the press in that
:01:35. > :01:41.time period, at every turn, the press says they will fix it and
:01:41. > :01:46.then they don't, so the cry comes up saying, unless you legislate, he
:01:46. > :01:51.cannot trust them. In this case, there is something peculiar going
:01:51. > :01:55.on. The press have moved further than they ever have done before in
:01:55. > :02:05.terms of what they had been prepared to countenance. We have a
:02:05. > :02:15.weird position in which both sides agree, the creek that million-pound
:02:15. > :02:21.fines, been Greek to enforce corrections, they agree that
:02:21. > :02:27.serving editors should no longer play any role in adjudicating
:02:27. > :02:31.bodies. There is a level of agreement of what is required.
:02:31. > :02:36.Where the divide us on this question of legislative back-up. My
:02:36. > :02:40.guess, for what it's worth is that the press will get their act
:02:40. > :02:47.together. There will come up with herself regulator in a matter of
:02:47. > :02:55.months. In any event, probably two years ahead of any significant vote
:02:55. > :02:59.on an actual proposal to legislate. When it comes to actual detail
:02:59. > :03:04.about putting it interlock, because it is complicated and divisive,
:03:04. > :03:10.they will be fighting about it politically. It will take a long
:03:10. > :03:14.time. My bet is that by the time it comes to the prospect of a vote,
:03:14. > :03:21.which would be very close to a General Election, the press will
:03:21. > :03:30.already have a body in place, which is Leveson compliant, but will not
:03:30. > :03:35.be backed by legislation. The other way of looking at it is, we have
:03:35. > :03:39.heard victims and families of victims this week saying it is not
:03:39. > :03:43.good enough. It is not the pressure Ravenna the deals, it is the
:03:43. > :03:48.pressure from the victims themselves. The pressure from
:03:48. > :03:54.victims is very important. I would like to address this notion that
:03:54. > :03:59.there is nothing between licence and North Korea, because that is a
:03:59. > :04:04.line we have been hearing all week. Regulation is a spectrum and cities
:04:04. > :04:08.where you sit on that spectrum. I think that given the track record
:04:08. > :04:18.of Lister she, there have been endless inquiries and endless
:04:18. > :04:19.
:04:19. > :04:25.promises. We simply cannot trust them. They resist it, because a
:04:25. > :04:30.legislative underpinning would be a clear enforcement. The idea that
:04:30. > :04:38.they would do this without the law would last for five minutes. I get
:04:38. > :04:42.a lot of e-mails from people who say keeping the press free is
:04:42. > :04:46.nonsense, there are half-a-dozen power for people who run it. If you
:04:46. > :04:52.go back in history, you find the press was not free because it was
:04:52. > :04:57.funded by governments and political parties. Technically, it has been
:04:57. > :05:07.frisson 1685. Before that, all publications have to be separately
:05:07. > :05:09.
:05:09. > :05:18.licensed. Since 16th 95, the act of publishing itself has not been
:05:18. > :05:24.subject to legislation, so Leveson's called scheme depends on
:05:24. > :05:34.legislation. The backstop does not even do anything apart from audit
:05:34. > :05:41.the self- regulators. At not necessarily set up by statute.
:05:41. > :05:48.statute underpins it. The funding of this entity has to be free from
:05:48. > :05:52.participation by the proprietors and the Government. If Ofcom is the
:05:52. > :05:54.Auditor, what happens when the auditor falls out with the
:05:54. > :05:59.regulator and the Minister for Culture said herself yesterday,
:05:59. > :06:09.this is never going to work, because I appoint the chairman of
:06:09. > :06:09.
:06:09. > :06:17.Ofcom. I make agree completely with Cameron, because I see the French
:06:18. > :06:24.press. Take the example from the President, he had a second family,
:06:24. > :06:33.used the state helicopter to protected, used the police and we
:06:33. > :06:43.could not publish it. So it is essential to leave the press free.
:06:43. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:53.I have been 25 years in the UK. Even if some of it is unpleasant,,
:06:53. > :06:59.it comes out in this country and it does not come right in France.
:06:59. > :07:05.press is free to be reckless and it is free to be old, but it is free.
:07:05. > :07:14.At there is a limit to how much freedom you can exercise.
:07:14. > :07:20.But looking back at the incident, they committed a crime and that
:07:20. > :07:27.crime was punishable by existing laws. If the existing laws can be
:07:27. > :07:31.used, then that reduces her need for new legislation. The problem
:07:31. > :07:39.comes when the press changes from an English gentleman's club to
:07:39. > :07:48.foreign ownership with foreign attitudes to hand its own
:07:49. > :07:53.management to running the process their own way. 85 aged between
:07:53. > :07:59.legislators and none of legislators can be crossed by a very strict and
:07:59. > :08:06.stringent code of conduct and that code of conduct could be enforced
:08:06. > :08:11.by the existing laws. And also, structuring the Press Complaints
:08:11. > :08:15.Commission in a way that makes sure people out here to the code of
:08:16. > :08:21.conduct. I would have more confidence in the argument about
:08:21. > :08:28.corruption if it was about the corruption of the press and by the
:08:28. > :08:32.press, had it not happened, but we have had endless evidence from
:08:32. > :08:35.clever son. He said asses conclusion. Look at the evidence.
:08:35. > :08:40.Even the Daily Mail does not believe the police were not being
:08:40. > :08:48.paid. Newspapers were paying, that is corruption of public the
:08:48. > :08:52.authorities. Police were not paid not to investigate. At but they
:08:52. > :09:00.were paid to suppliers information. As soon as you pay them to do
:09:00. > :09:03.something they are not supposed to do, it is corruption. He what he is
:09:03. > :09:09.suggesting is elegant and interesting and challenging and
:09:09. > :09:15.offers all sorts of potential ways forward. A lot of the rest is a bit
:09:15. > :09:19.floppy. I think it has to come to the professional integrity in
:09:19. > :09:29.journalism. But how do you enforce certain
:09:29. > :09:29.
:09:30. > :09:36.standards when many members of the public... They all like competition.
:09:36. > :09:42.You have a fantastic press. Look at the situation in France. We hardly
:09:42. > :09:49.sell any newspapers. Here, you sell 7 million copies and day. I think
:09:49. > :09:55.it is fantastic. The bigger picture, which you discuss are you sure
:09:55. > :09:59.quite a lot, is, is it all going to be dead in 10 years anyway? Despite
:09:59. > :10:09.what they're saying, many newspapers are not very healthy.
:10:09. > :10:11.
:10:11. > :10:17.The Internet, people think you cannot regularly to it. The world
:10:17. > :10:22.is changing and it is changing fast. People all round the world were
:10:22. > :10:28.trying different models to survive. The big newspapers have big brands.
:10:28. > :10:31.They have a place in people's heads. Insofar as people move on mine, if
:10:31. > :10:36.the newspapers are smart, I have every confidence they will find a
:10:36. > :10:42.way there. On the internet, some times even more than in the world
:10:42. > :10:47.of print, the value you describe it to brand she can trust is important.
:10:47. > :10:57.If you look at Brands and circulation, they are in in verse
:10:57. > :10:59.
:10:59. > :11:04.proportion. But people buy them for fun. Is it 9 million every day?
:11:04. > :11:11.the premium on journalism you can trust, I think goes up in the
:11:11. > :11:15.online world, not down. So whatever structures you have to enforce it,
:11:15. > :11:23.which guarantees certain standards in year out but, I think is more
:11:23. > :11:32.important. It is victims of crime and not celebrities. They go be
:11:32. > :11:42.protected, but you do not have to protect everyone. You do not have
:11:42. > :11:51.
:11:51. > :11:58.to protect David Cameron. 9 million newspapers a day, the press must be
:11:58. > :12:03.doing something right. Steve says it is sometimes the press which is
:12:03. > :12:07.seen to overstep the mark the most, that is the stuff we buy. I think
:12:07. > :12:12.the readers who like scandal and cost of, who do not care if it is
:12:12. > :12:17.true, I think even they have been shocked by what the press has done
:12:17. > :12:22.to victims of crime, to ordinary people caught up in defence. Yes,
:12:22. > :12:29.of course you can dangle something bright and shiny and they will buy
:12:29. > :12:37.it, but this is damaging, I think. He but there is a complete
:12:37. > :12:44.consensus at this point that that has to change and a new self-
:12:44. > :12:47.regulatory body, which I think will be in existence very soon. But we
:12:47. > :12:57.have had the appearance of compliance so often. They have
:12:57. > :13:02.
:13:02. > :13:07.On that, we will hold our breath. The continuing political unrest in
:13:07. > :13:17.Egypt, and the situation in Gaza, mean that the Middle East is in
:13:17. > :13:23.
:13:23. > :13:28.turmoil again. Is Muhammad mussy -- Morsi helping or undermining the
:13:28. > :13:35.situation? I think there is inherent suspicion in the Muslim
:13:35. > :13:41.Brotherhood attitudes, and the fact that Morsi is not in his own right
:13:41. > :13:45.as president, and it appears that many declarations and decisions
:13:45. > :13:50.which Morsi announces are not being made necessarily in the presidency,
:13:50. > :13:55.but made in the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood under the
:13:56. > :14:02.auspices of the Supreme Guide, and then sent to the presidency. I can
:14:02. > :14:05.testify to that on the basis that a number of Morsi's advisers,
:14:05. > :14:12.especially legal advisers, they were not consulted about this
:14:12. > :14:16.decision. In that sense, are you saying he is a puppet president?
:14:16. > :14:21.Another way of looking at it is that for a lot of secular people in
:14:21. > :14:25.Egypt, this is sour grapes. They lost the election, and they don't
:14:25. > :14:31.like the result and therefore the policies being pursued? This is
:14:31. > :14:38.true as well. People are not used to the democratic practice, and
:14:38. > :14:42.some of them are taking it hard. But the Supreme Military Council
:14:42. > :14:50.when they were in charge of the country, they still did a process
:14:50. > :14:58.in a way which led us to a choice between Mubarak's men or Morsi's
:14:58. > :15:02.men. So there was a feeling that, if I was not there, the Muslim
:15:02. > :15:10.Brotherhood will come. And in the second round run an election,
:15:10. > :15:18.people gave their votes to Morsi in order to deprive Mubarak's men from
:15:18. > :15:23.coming. And many non- Islamists, revolutionaries, did that. What
:15:23. > :15:29.role, then, is the army likely to play now? Because they have been
:15:29. > :15:34.fairly quiet. They are quiet, but there are reports that they are
:15:34. > :15:39.feeling restless. They have said they will not support the Muslim
:15:39. > :15:46.Brotherhood. They will keep an equal distance from all political
:15:46. > :15:51.forces, and they will come in only if there is a danger to protect the
:15:51. > :15:59.institutions of the state. The question is they won't come to do
:15:59. > :16:05.that without Morsi's orders. But this is the big question. There are
:16:05. > :16:11.huge demonstrations going on this weekend, for and against Morsi. How
:16:11. > :16:15.is this scene in France? The whole jigsaw of the Middle East is being
:16:15. > :16:21.reassembled. We have heard from a Palestinian point of view, good
:16:21. > :16:31.news from them in the increased recognition at the UN. Well, you
:16:31. > :16:34.
:16:34. > :16:41.see, France is not playing in this, it is Europe. And Europe, in the
:16:41. > :16:50.question on Morsi, there was one voice to vote for the Palestinian,
:16:50. > :16:57.but the British again went on their way against Europe and their
:16:57. > :17:04.partners. But the real solution, it is only the US which can put
:17:04. > :17:09.pressure on Morsi, on the Israelis, on Palestine. Because they pay, and
:17:09. > :17:14.the US has the money, but they don't. How do you see this
:17:14. > :17:18.particularly? William Hague has said that he once the Israelis to
:17:18. > :17:23.think again about the 3,000 new settlements which have been built
:17:23. > :17:28.in occupied east Jerusalem, which to many people is the real issue,
:17:28. > :17:35.because week by week, day-by-day, the fact on the ground changed.
:17:35. > :17:39.agree, and I absolutely agree that it is only the US that can put on
:17:39. > :17:44.the real pressure. But I do think that the European Union should not
:17:44. > :17:49.be entirely without voice here. We know that the US will tend to
:17:49. > :17:54.favour one strong even if authoritarian leader, because it is
:17:54. > :17:59.an instrument of its Middle East policy. You will not get a solution
:17:59. > :18:04.to the conflict that way. There were also be a strong president as
:18:04. > :18:11.an instrument of policy. Life is changing, and no absolute ruler
:18:11. > :18:16.will come again, and Morsi... you sure of that? I can be sure of
:18:16. > :18:21.that in Egypt especially. The barrier of fear has been broken,
:18:21. > :18:25.and people will not accept anyone who does not communicate. The
:18:25. > :18:32.problem with Morsi is that he does not give the impression of a state
:18:32. > :18:38.leader. He gives the impression of a preacher in a mosque. We are all
:18:38. > :18:43.Muslims, most of us, and if Muslim rule is applied fairly, not
:18:43. > :18:48.according to what they say, many Christians feel happy with it.
:18:49. > :18:55.was going to ask you, but maybe in a sense it has been answered. Have
:18:55. > :18:59.we in the media, in Britain for example, over sold the Arab Spring?
:18:59. > :19:07.You see the cycle of fear being broken in Tunisia and Egypt and
:19:07. > :19:12.elsewhere. This seems like good news. And in Kuwait and in Bahrain.
:19:12. > :19:18.I don't think it is so much oversold as expectations are
:19:18. > :19:26.accelerated. You come item of generations of never having had
:19:26. > :19:30.democracy and overthrow a single or -- singular dictatorial regime, in
:19:30. > :19:35.a rather on problematic way, all trooped along to the polling
:19:35. > :19:40.station and vote, that seems unrealistic. So this was about
:19:40. > :19:45.bringing democracy in, and then it would almost and start to function.
:19:45. > :19:51.I don't think it was oversold. He seems to me there is a genuine
:19:51. > :19:55.revolution going on. But will it produce democracy? Spain terms of
:19:55. > :20:01.the press, you are more free to come and go. How free is the press
:20:01. > :20:04.in Egypt now? The press feel the restriction coming. We have a
:20:04. > :20:13.minister of information he belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood. On
:20:13. > :20:16.Tuesday, 10 newspapers are going to stop publishing. On Wednesday, and
:20:16. > :20:26.number of TV channels are going to appear blank. This is how things
:20:26. > :20:27.
:20:27. > :20:31.are going. Unfortunately, President Morsi with unconstitutional
:20:31. > :20:40.declaration has put the region which he represents against the
:20:40. > :20:43.good practice and the morality of politics. But the Muslim
:20:43. > :20:50.Brotherhood will get away with coming to power with the military
:20:50. > :20:53.council to try to do this. He doesn't appear to be learning.
:20:53. > :20:57.was going to absolutely agree that overthrowing the dictator is not
:20:57. > :21:01.the revolution. The revolution is what follows when you reshape
:21:01. > :21:06.society, when you're trying to produce a country, as we would hope,
:21:06. > :21:13.where minorities are not persecuted, women's rights are guaranteed, the
:21:13. > :21:17.rule of law is effective. That is the revolution. A couple of minutes
:21:17. > :21:22.left commander wanted to turn to British domestic politics. The UK
:21:22. > :21:27.Independence Party has done quite well this week. Its leader has said
:21:27. > :21:33.they are now the third force in British politics, and they seek to
:21:33. > :21:40.remove Britain from the European Union, they want a referendum on it.
:21:40. > :21:45.You are a UKIP supporter, aren't you? I want to see the British out
:21:46. > :21:52.of the EU so that we can go on with the political union, the Labour
:21:52. > :21:57.Union, go on with life, and Britain can come in with the agreement or
:21:57. > :22:03.Norway or Hong Kong or Switzerland or whatever. But the problem is
:22:03. > :22:10.that the British at the moment realise that going out of the EU
:22:10. > :22:16.would be catastrophic for them, and so I hope they follow UKIP, but I
:22:16. > :22:20.don't think they will. We are stuck with them again. You fear that the
:22:20. > :22:28.British might act in their own interests! That's a very French
:22:28. > :22:35.position, if I may say so. I think UKIP represent a shift in the
:22:35. > :22:39.centre of ground on that issue. And it has been fed into resources such
:22:39. > :22:45.as immigration. There is a lot going on that isn't just about the
:22:45. > :22:53.EU. But that is all they are, and all they can do is make it more of
:22:54. > :23:01.an issue. The terrible thing is that the pro-European coming up,
:23:01. > :23:07.Blair, Mandelson, they are speaking and were ignored. I fear you are
:23:07. > :23:12.going to be disappointed in the end. I think a win for UKIP does not
:23:12. > :23:18.mean an increase in popularity much. It means a reflection on the state
:23:19. > :23:25.of Europe now, especially in the economic field. I don't think there
:23:25. > :23:30.is much to go for them, actually. There is a limitation. They are
:23:30. > :23:38.going out of the spectrum, in a way, and making life difficult for the
:23:38. > :23:43.Conservatives. Mario Draghi has said that next year we welcome the
:23:43. > :23:47.eurozone crisis! We will look forward to that! I think the Tories
:23:47. > :23:53.have a calculation not dissimilar to that of Republicans and the
:23:53. > :23:57.United States. How far do accommodate the extremes? So you
:23:57. > :24:02.see it as a kind of tea-party movement? They have a powerful
:24:02. > :24:08.appeal to a limited sector, in a rather simplistic and in practical
:24:08. > :24:13.way. And that is a disaster for the Lib-Dems. Isn't that the big story
:24:13. > :24:17.of this week? It is not that UKIP have done particularly well, but
:24:17. > :24:19.that the Lib Dems have done extraordinarily badly. They are
:24:19. > :24:25.vulnerable to a single issue proposition because it doesn't
:24:25. > :24:29.matter. You have got the government you've got what have you made for.
:24:29. > :24:33.They have neutralised themselves. Whether that remains the case at