:00:25. > :00:28.back at 1pm. Now, it is time for Welcome to Dateline London, at
:00:28. > :00:31.gearian hostage siege and what it means for Mali, France and the
:00:31. > :00:35.international community. Plus the speech that never happened. Has
:00:35. > :00:42.David Cameron raised expectations about Britain in Europe that he
:00:42. > :00:52.cannot fulfil? My guests today are Nabila Ramdani, Marc Roche, Greg
:00:52. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :00:58.Katz and Ian and Ian Birrell. When France decided to send troops to
:00:58. > :01:04.Mali, one leader promised that the gates of hell would open. The
:01:04. > :01:13.attack on the BP gas facility in Algeria was planned before the
:01:13. > :01:23.French intervention, but what can be done about Al-Qaeda? Nabila,
:01:23. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:31.maybe you could explain how things are seen from an Algerian prospect.
:01:31. > :01:35.Yes, I think first and foremost western gas and oil facilities,
:01:35. > :01:39.especially in this part of the Samarra are always going to be
:01:39. > :01:43.prime targets for Al-Qaeda related groups and it would be naive to
:01:43. > :01:48.think otherwise, but as far as the Algerian Government is concern, it
:01:48. > :01:57.was always going to do everything it could to protect this hugely
:01:57. > :02:01.lucrative, but also sensitive and vulnerable facility and it is
:02:01. > :02:08.really about politician because it represents a significant proportion
:02:08. > :02:14.of the GDP. But how do they see the potential threat to them from Al-
:02:14. > :02:20.Qaeda? What do they think of these people? Al, Algeria has been
:02:20. > :02:25.fighting Islamic militant groups for decades. You mentioned the dark
:02:25. > :02:30.period of the civil war in the 1990s where the Algerian Government
:02:30. > :02:35.and the Army were fighting those groups ferociously and the
:02:35. > :02:39.background, the history of Algeria is an extremely violent one and it
:02:39. > :02:44.produced ruthless security forces who are always ready to respond in
:02:44. > :02:50.kind to that kind of gangs, sinister gangs effectively.
:02:50. > :02:53.Ian, you know Mali. You are in love with the music of the area and have
:02:54. > :03:00.a lot of connections with Mali. Maybe you could explain why Mali
:03:00. > :03:10.fits into this part of the jigsaw. What What is the Mally connection?
:03:10. > :03:18.-- Mali connection? You have a country that that has been a toll
:03:18. > :03:23.rent country, -- toll rent country. The latest revolution started in
:03:23. > :03:28.the wake of the Libya conflict. Into that, these people are not
:03:28. > :03:33.Islamists. These are people who want their own state, but into the
:03:33. > :03:36.mix in recent years have come a lot of smaller Islamic terrorist groups
:03:36. > :03:43.who are actually gangsters, who have made a lot of money out of
:03:43. > :03:50.smuggling. The Sahara has been a place for smuggling and they have
:03:50. > :04:00.been smuggling cars and guns and drugs and kidnapping tourists. Some
:04:00. > :04:04.of them there is a suspicion has been built up by the Government by
:04:04. > :04:08.the governments. The Islamists have elbowed aside the people who want
:04:08. > :04:15.an independent state and occupied two-thirds of the country and
:04:15. > :04:20.imposed strict interpretation and a distorted interpretation of Sharia
:04:20. > :04:25.law. They have banned everything from social mixing through to music
:04:25. > :04:29.which is unbelievable because there is few countries where music is so
:04:29. > :04:33.entwined with the country and that's the mess we are in there.
:04:33. > :04:36.To add one further layer. Other people people suggested this is an
:04:36. > :04:43.indirect consequence of what happened in Libya because well,
:04:43. > :04:49.there is a lot of guns about. simplistic to say this is a direct
:04:49. > :04:52.direct consequence of what happened in Libya. The one thing you should
:04:53. > :05:02.add this isn't a legacy of western intervention because there was a
:05:03. > :05:04.
:05:04. > :05:08.revolution going in Libya anyway. Forces were fighting and the the
:05:08. > :05:13.tourags were always going to back Gaddafi.
:05:13. > :05:17.This is a consequence of the French military intervention in Mali and
:05:17. > :05:25.the French President said as much and the Algerian support was seen
:05:25. > :05:30.as a further provocation and Al- Qaeda is looking for a spectacular.
:05:31. > :05:35.They know that Western Governments, western populations and western
:05:35. > :05:37.media would respond. Francois Hollande says this proves
:05:37. > :05:42.we were right to go into Mali and help the Government there. Do you
:05:42. > :05:48.think that's how the French people see it? There is unanimity that it
:05:48. > :05:53.was the only thing to do because you had the domino-effect on the
:05:53. > :06:00.whole region if Mali fell to the Islamists and it would have
:06:00. > :06:06.threaten Nigeria because you had a a strong link between the
:06:06. > :06:13.extremeists in both countries. So Francois Hollande, who is perceived
:06:13. > :06:17.as weak, as indecisive, has chosen foreign policy to show that he
:06:17. > :06:22.means business and he has the support, not only of the French
:06:22. > :06:25.people, of the right-wing opposition, but also of the
:06:25. > :06:31.Europeans. And one of the things that he did,
:06:31. > :06:41.was he went to Algeria. He didn't apologise for French colonialism,
:06:41. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:54.but he said say, "We understand we didn't get everything right." Are
:06:54. > :06:54.
:06:54. > :07:00.relations good? The refugees from Algeria, who were afraid of that
:07:00. > :07:05.gesture. Francois Hollande is not linked with that because the
:07:05. > :07:10.Algerians vote for the National Front, they don't note for
:07:10. > :07:16.socialists. He did the right thing by apologising and that's why he is
:07:16. > :07:19.coming back in the polls and it is a new Francois Hollande presidency.
:07:19. > :07:24.There has been some irritation here about the lack of communication
:07:24. > :07:28.from the Algerians, not telling us what they were going to do and also
:07:28. > :07:36.some were suggesting they were heavy handed. Is that seen
:07:36. > :07:40.differently in France? Absolutely. The only thing possible since they
:07:40. > :07:44.were threatening hostages was to use force. I don't know what is
:07:44. > :07:50.wrong with the British for saying we should have been asked. We
:07:50. > :07:54.should have been asked for advice. The algear Algerians can do that.
:07:54. > :08:00.They are out of a bloody civil war and they know how to cope with that.
:08:00. > :08:04.They did the right thing. From Washington, there is the
:08:04. > :08:09.matter of the hostages and how many Americans are there and so on, but
:08:09. > :08:13.there is the wider matter that US strategic interests, oil question,
:08:13. > :08:17.friendly nations like Morocco, all of whom could be destabilised by
:08:17. > :08:22.this and Nigeria as well? I think what has happened the US has not
:08:22. > :08:25.been actively involved in this part of Africa and has not been on the
:08:25. > :08:28.top of their agenda and that's changed in the last six weeks and
:08:28. > :08:35.particularly in the last two weeks. I think during the election
:08:35. > :08:38.campaign, Obama didn't want to raise any concerns about anymore
:08:38. > :08:42.foreign policy concerns, but they have no choice, but American
:08:42. > :08:48.interests are at risk here at this point.
:08:48. > :08:56.Some publish diplomats talked about the powers, the Vietnam parallel
:08:56. > :09:00.that you have got a I will legitimate Government and somehow,
:09:00. > :09:06.we seem to be in a position where we have to support them? There is
:09:06. > :09:11.no other choice. You know, if that Government goes, Mali goes. If Mali
:09:11. > :09:18.goes the whole region which is slowly coming out very painfully
:09:18. > :09:25.out of poverty. It has enormous potential to raw material and it
:09:25. > :09:29.will be put into difficulties. I see that Mali point. It came out
:09:29. > :09:33.of a coup, but a lot of people were upset with the way corruption had
:09:33. > :09:38.been allowed to grow so much under the democratic Government. It was a
:09:38. > :09:42.very tired Government and it was unpopular so there were people who
:09:42. > :09:45.weren't antagonist of of what the copy people were saying. The
:09:45. > :09:51.military chiefs look ridiculous because they are saying, "We are
:09:51. > :09:56.going to lead it. We don't need foreigners." They look sidelined so
:09:56. > :10:05.I think this is going to be good in the fight to restore democracy in
:10:05. > :10:10.Mali which is what Malians want. Malians are supportive of the
:10:10. > :10:17.French. The whole country could have fallen under the Islamists.
:10:17. > :10:21.Right, Syria, we have seen tens of thousands dead. Mali, came out of
:10:22. > :10:26.almost nowhere, but you have been talking about it for some years. So
:10:26. > :10:30.you think it is a justifiable intervention and a winnable war?
:10:30. > :10:38.think it is a necessary intervention. I think had they not
:10:38. > :10:44.interyeen, the country -- intervened and Nigeria is one of
:10:44. > :10:50.the biggest oil exporters to the west.
:10:50. > :10:53.Whether it is winnable, time will tell. There are 5,000 or 6 6,000
:10:53. > :10:59.fight nears the north and it is -- fighters in the north. They will
:10:59. > :11:06.melt back into the desert areas and you will never fully quash them.
:11:06. > :11:11.The biggest question isn't the restoration of democracy, it is how
:11:11. > :11:16.to you resolve the grievances? How do you find a situation where these
:11:16. > :11:22.nomadic people can be satisfied and don't end up trying to get - in
:11:22. > :11:26.returning to the gun to resolve their problems? Where do you think
:11:26. > :11:32.most Algerians and others stand on this western intervention? Well, I
:11:32. > :11:35.think the Algerian president has been pragmatic about it and high on
:11:35. > :11:40.the agenda when Francois Hollande visited him last December were
:11:40. > :11:44.discussions about the situation in Mali. I think it is Algeria is
:11:44. > :11:50.opening up and it is strengthening its relationship to try and deal
:11:50. > :11:53.with the real problem at its its door. So it is about economic
:11:53. > :11:58.corporation, but more and more about military co-operation. We
:11:58. > :12:02.have seen how the Algerian president opened its airspace and
:12:02. > :12:06.its sharing intelligence and he made a very public support for the
:12:06. > :12:09.intervention so they are very worried about this Al-Qaeda problem
:12:09. > :12:17.that needs to be sorted out in the region.
:12:17. > :12:24.Just a couple of minutes left on this. You talked about Muslims in
:12:24. > :12:28.Mali and you talked about the change that is taking place in a
:12:28. > :12:35.lot of countries. I wonder how worried you would be about that and
:12:35. > :12:38.how we should think about that because that has nothing to do with
:12:38. > :12:42.guns directly. Well, the real question at the heart of this,
:12:42. > :12:46.there is a lot of money swelling around in that desert area. People
:12:46. > :12:49.who are fighting for the Islamist are getting money. People are being
:12:49. > :12:52.bribed to go and join their cause. This money isn't coming from that
:12:52. > :12:58.region, it is coming from outside. The suspicion is that the hand of
:12:58. > :13:01.Saudi Arabia is involved there and the truth is that Saudi Arabia is
:13:01. > :13:05.behind a lot of the problems which have caused so much trouble over
:13:05. > :13:10.the last decade and this is something the west does not face up
:13:10. > :13:15.to which is to tackle the root cause of a lot of these problems
:13:15. > :13:18.which is the extreme wEmt but -- wealth that we are seeing coming
:13:18. > :13:25.out of Saudi Arabia. That is the problem that successive
:13:25. > :13:30.American and British administrations doesn't want to
:13:30. > :13:33.talk about. The vast billions that are getting trance transferred from
:13:33. > :13:36.the west to the Saudis and back out to support these groups. Nobody in
:13:36. > :13:42.the administration in Washington wants to talk about it or in the UK
:13:42. > :13:46.for that matter. People recognise there is a link. A
:13:46. > :13:49.link between what people believe and what they do? We have been
:13:49. > :13:53.writing that and saying that for ten years now, but nobody in
:13:53. > :13:58.official Washington will acknowledge it or address it.
:13:59. > :14:06.Let's move on. David Cameron big speech on Europe has been like a
:14:06. > :14:12.never ending dance of the seven veils. Events in Algeria meant he
:14:12. > :14:16.had to cancel going to Holland this week. Anyone with any any views has
:14:16. > :14:22.toll the Prime Minister -- told the Prime Minister what should be in
:14:22. > :14:32.the speech. Has he stirred up more trouble. It is an odd thing to go
:14:32. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:38.on about this big speech and not I don't think you can blame him for
:14:38. > :14:43.not actually making it. It is the most absurd hype before a speech.
:14:43. > :14:47.Also, it's a speech which can never satisfy the demands placed on it.
:14:47. > :14:52.It was a complete no-win. Politically it was very bad to
:14:52. > :14:57.allow it to become a toe temic event, worsened by the fact that it
:14:57. > :15:02.wasn't given. When we look at what he was kpweing to say, I think he
:15:02. > :15:07.had a cogent argument, but that's been lost now in the heat of the
:15:07. > :15:12.debate. You used to write speeches for David Cameron. Do they matter?
:15:12. > :15:15.No, I don't think most speeches do matter very much. A big party
:15:15. > :15:19.conference speech makes a big impact and we can remember one or
:15:20. > :15:24.two great speeches over the last couple of decades. But most
:15:24. > :15:28.speeches don't matter very much. That's why it's silly how it's been
:15:28. > :15:34.allowed to get out of hand. must love this. We say to the
:15:34. > :15:38.British, we want to win. But if you want to leave and your dream is
:15:38. > :15:43.becoming Norway, Switzerland and Hong Kong, you leave, but we will
:15:43. > :15:52.not give up the Europe like we meet it. It's not Europe a la carte.
:15:52. > :15:58.There's nothing to repatriot. I find it still, because I got hold
:15:58. > :16:05.of the speech on my way to Amsterdam. He was going to say that
:16:05. > :16:10.Europe is undemock -- undemocratic. The commission is chosen by all the
:16:11. > :16:15.member. The court of justice is more liberal and more protective of
:16:15. > :16:20.human rights than British justice and if there's one undemocratic
:16:20. > :16:23.situation, it's the electoral system in Britain, which is not
:16:23. > :16:31.proportional like European election are. It has no lesson to give us.
:16:31. > :16:34.He should take lesson from us. told. Do we want to have the
:16:34. > :16:38.European debate? I'm not sure. Let's talk about the speech and
:16:38. > :16:41.about Britain's role, because one of the things that has been
:16:41. > :16:46.striking, come to America in a moment, but countries that are
:16:46. > :16:50.friendly to Britain and actually have quite conservative with a
:16:50. > :16:54.small "c" views on how to run an economy like Germany and Sweden,
:16:54. > :16:58.think this is a mistake. They think Cameron is overplaying his hand.
:16:59. > :17:03.Yes but I think it's a domestic matter for Britain almost. I agree
:17:03. > :17:11.with Ian, it was almost impossible to write such a speech. You're
:17:11. > :17:16.dealing with very devicive issues. You're boubd to -- bound to anow a
:17:16. > :17:25.number of people listen to rb -- bound to anow a number of people
:17:25. > :17:31.listening to that speech. Indeed the economic and political powers,
:17:31. > :17:36.as a nation state, but it's all very well blurting out platitudes
:17:36. > :17:39.about the unique role of Britain but it's harder to deliver on what
:17:39. > :17:43.people actually expect from responsible government. I'm sorry
:17:43. > :17:47.to go on that one. The problem of Britain is that they never
:17:47. > :17:52.reconcile Germany, at the time where on Monday, we will have a big
:17:52. > :17:58.party for the 50th anniversary of the Franco-German friendship, here,
:17:58. > :18:02.they still this fear of Germany and that explain a lot of the reaction.
:18:02. > :18:10.Which because in many ways I think you would accept in many ways
:18:10. > :18:18.Britain should be closer to Germany than France. The Royal Family is
:18:18. > :18:21.German. Very close to Germany, it's very close, state aploch. They're
:18:21. > :18:26.obsessed with World War II. Leaving aside the war, the one area I might
:18:26. > :18:30.agree on is Britain and should have formed a closer bond with Germany
:18:30. > :18:34.and then have driven through reforms to an institution which is
:18:34. > :18:38.very undemocratic and is bloated and wasteful and there to service
:18:39. > :18:43.the need of small French farmers which is absurd. The bigger
:18:43. > :18:47.question... A British farmers by the way. Big British farmers. The
:18:48. > :18:53.real fundamental question is the world change -- is change soing
:18:53. > :18:57.fast. You go to Africa, Latin America and Asia and we're dancing
:18:57. > :19:01.on a pin head, agonising over our relationship with Europe when the
:19:01. > :19:07.world is change soing fast. If we're not careful, Britain needs to
:19:08. > :19:13.wake up to what's happening and see how relevant this is. We'll still
:19:13. > :19:17.be arguing over whether we should repatriate powers while the rest of
:19:17. > :19:24.the world has roared ahead Europe say lot less relevant than it was
:19:24. > :19:29.ten years ago. Sure. These internal arguments become somewhat absurd.
:19:29. > :19:32.There's no question that it's bloated and overregulated and
:19:32. > :19:36.10,000 pages of documents when 20 pages would be able to sum it up,
:19:36. > :19:41.but the point is Asia, Latin America, all these places are move
:19:41. > :19:44.ago head quickly. They're sort of laughing at this union, to a degree.
:19:44. > :19:47.I'm struck when you were saying when you were saying that almost
:19:47. > :19:53.the same thing is said by Angela Merkel. She says that Europe has
:19:53. > :19:57.got to wake up, that when the EU was founded we were a very big area
:19:57. > :20:00.in terms of economy, in terms of the rest of the world, big in terms
:20:00. > :20:04.of population, but we are shrinking as part of the cake. We haven't
:20:04. > :20:10.woken up to that, which is another good reason perhaps for Britain and
:20:10. > :20:14.Germany to make more common cause. I agree. It has been mishandled on
:20:14. > :20:17.all sides for many years. It's easy to blame individual politicians now.
:20:17. > :20:20.But the countries have become locked into a ridiculous dance
:20:20. > :20:26.going on and can't see what's really happening. Europe is a
:20:26. > :20:30.success, I'm sorry to say, the Nobel Prize, it's 50 or 60 years of
:20:30. > :20:36.peace and you kpbtd disregard it. America has said during the week
:20:36. > :20:41.that Europe is very important and that Britain should be in. In terms
:20:41. > :20:47.of standard of living, in terms of economy despite the crisis, Europe
:20:47. > :20:51.is still, with the Welfare State... We they can't afford the well stair
:20:51. > :20:55.-- Welfare State. We can't afford it Where is the growth? Yes, the
:20:55. > :20:59.wine is good, the health care is g, the roads are good, the trains are
:20:59. > :21:02.pretty good, but where is the growth? Well the growth will come
:21:02. > :21:06.from more integration in the EU. That's how the growth will come.
:21:06. > :21:11.The growth will come any way because there will be a relaunch of
:21:11. > :21:17.the economy and it will be great. And the example of Britain where no
:21:17. > :21:23.growth has been created through austerity, while we have, at least,
:21:23. > :21:28.we don't do such hard austerity and the growth will come because we are
:21:28. > :21:34.a big ensemble where we trade together. Holloway said he was
:21:34. > :21:38.going to -- Holland e said he would expand and he's had to restract.
:21:38. > :21:44.lot of governments realise it's a good ideal, but it hasn't been
:21:44. > :21:49.working terribly well. It has been working very well. You know 27
:21:50. > :21:52.countries coming together, becoming a super power. On the level of
:21:52. > :21:58.America, being regarded by the Chinese as the Indian as a
:21:59. > :22:02.superpower. I think they would dispute that. It's been working to
:22:02. > :22:06.great success. The eurozone crisis has shown there are problems but it
:22:07. > :22:10.is a way of being solved. I just want to ask about one other big
:22:10. > :22:13.story this week. Many people would think it's important, gun control
:22:13. > :22:16.in America. Here we have the President saying I'm going to do
:22:16. > :22:21.something and I need Congress to help. As soon as Congress to help
:22:21. > :22:25.comes out of his mouth, it's not going to happen. No, it's not. This
:22:25. > :22:29.is incredibly hard for Britons and Europeans to understand, but our
:22:29. > :22:34.domestic situation is so gridlocked over the issue and the idea that
:22:34. > :22:37.there would be significant movement in Congress, it's just not in the
:22:37. > :22:43.cards, not under Obama or the next President. I don't think it is
:22:43. > :22:48.likely to change. But is it ever going to change? I heard one
:22:49. > :22:52.American commentator saying, it took 75 years to get slave riff out
:22:52. > :22:55.of the constitution and it was perfectly legal to do certain
:22:55. > :22:59.things. It's perfectly legal to do certain things now, but there is a
:22:59. > :23:03.parallel, we can change, but it will take a long time. Attitudes
:23:03. > :23:09.have changed on gay marriage, civil rights litigation has changed. All
:23:09. > :23:13.that has changed. I see the gun lobby as perpetual and self-
:23:13. > :23:17.perpetuating. The constitutional basis that they cite for their
:23:17. > :23:23.right to bear arms, I don't see it that different in 50 years. I'd be
:23:23. > :23:30.happy to be wrong. British people don't get this, do they? No, I was
:23:30. > :23:33.in Texas last year talking to people and I realised... To me it
:23:33. > :23:39.seems nonsensical thing that you don't ban automatic weapons that
:23:39. > :23:43.are being used to slaughter school kids. But if you go there, you see
:23:43. > :23:46.the debate seen in different terms. You do understand the passions and
:23:46. > :23:51.discourse there. It makes us physically sick to see these mass
:23:51. > :23:55.occurs in schools. I know Connecticut, I am from there. It
:23:55. > :23:59.makes us physically sick, but it doesn't lead to reform. What is
:23:59. > :24:04.staggering is the response being put forward to slaughtering kids in
:24:04. > :24:10.schools. They are now producing bullet-proof school bags, bullet-
:24:10. > :24:13.proof equipment for kids, which is... And arm school teachers in
:24:13. > :24:17.some places. Absolutely. I don't know where you were in Texas, we
:24:17. > :24:24.don't get how remote you can be from official law and order. If you
:24:24. > :24:28.were in the American west, you can be miems away. Americans make the
:24:28. > :24:30.argument -- miles away. Americans make the argument they need to
:24:30. > :24:33.protect themselves. That was certainly true at a certain period
:24:33. > :24:38.of time in American history. I think access to protection and
:24:38. > :24:43.indeed, from the government, is there in today's American society.
:24:43. > :24:47.I don't think it's up to individuals to address that.
:24:47. > :24:51.agree with what everything has been said, except one thing, except
:24:51. > :25:01.that's why we live in Europe and don't have that problem. That's why
:25:01. > :25:05.the European union is so good. We have more civilised society. Right.
:25:05. > :25:10.On that note of salute Apriliness I'm leaving it there. That's all