:00:02. > :00:12.fought so skipping out of bed on a Monday morning and travelling, you
:00:12. > :00:32.
:00:32. > :00:40.Welcome today line in London. In a week when slogans Warwick and
:00:40. > :00:44.chanted accusing the government... Where would it all end? The Defence
:00:44. > :00:49.Secretary a -- technologies for the first time that he supports arming
:00:49. > :00:59.Syrian and rebels. And the discovery of 100 % horsemeat in
:00:59. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:10.lasagne sold in the UK and Ireland. Can we be sure what is in our food?
:01:10. > :01:14.Welcome to all of you. We will start with Tunisia. I know that you
:01:14. > :01:20.want to talk about all speak but we will start in Tunisia. What are we
:01:20. > :01:24.seeing here, because we have got a lot of worries said that instead of
:01:24. > :01:32.being for the Arabs bring, it is slipping back? The fact that this
:01:32. > :01:37.is the first assassination in Tunisia... Tunisia does not have a
:01:37. > :01:42.violent political background. The fact that the revolution happened
:01:42. > :01:47.with minimal casualties compared to Egypt and Syria, what we are seeing
:01:47. > :01:52.is tension building up for months on end. Not just secular parties
:01:52. > :01:56.but also people fighting for the future of the country. We have got
:01:56. > :02:00.tension and anger on the street which is also building up because
:02:00. > :02:05.expectations have not been met. People think that the true changes
:02:05. > :02:11.of how the country is run and the role of the police has not really
:02:11. > :02:17.taken place as hoped. This assassination is really the peak of
:02:17. > :02:22.what we have seen. The idea of the militia is that it is disappointing
:02:22. > :02:26.at least with the government at the moment. They have turned a blind
:02:26. > :02:31.eye and we cannot be sure if the militia is run by the government
:02:32. > :02:36.but a blind eye has been turned. For that reason, the fact that
:02:36. > :02:40.security is slipping back, people need to be worried. And the
:02:40. > :02:48.chanting of people saying that they once the downfall of the regime is
:02:48. > :02:51.exactly the same has two years ago. It is a big regression and the
:02:51. > :02:56.problem is if you start seeing assassinations in some of the other
:02:56. > :03:00.countries, you could easily have a fair amount of chaos returning at
:03:00. > :03:10.people will start asking what has been accomplished and what was that
:03:10. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:18.carrots bring about? -- Arab spring. People look at Tunisia at the start
:03:18. > :03:24.as the beginning of it all and it must be worrying at least. It was a
:03:24. > :03:29.great tragedy. It was a perfect resolution -- revolution and not a
:03:29. > :03:33.violent revolution. Some people are looking at these images and they
:03:33. > :03:38.are lowering one country into another. But they are actually very
:03:38. > :03:41.different with different histories. That is why it is sad to see if
:03:41. > :03:47.this might be the beginning of Tunisia for the first time becoming
:03:47. > :03:56.violent as well. There was such hope and that Arab its brain was
:03:56. > :04:03.such a wonderful idea. -- Arab spring. And the hope that was there
:04:03. > :04:06.is perhaps now extinguished. just that but we have got a serious
:04:06. > :04:13.worry that what is happening there can have a catastrophic effect,
:04:13. > :04:18.Europe. Italy is the first line of immigration from North Africa.
:04:18. > :04:25.There is a concern with what we are seeing in Tunisia is that is hope
:04:25. > :04:32.for democracy is becoming ugly. It is important to look at what the
:04:32. > :04:39.modern is the mists are doing with the extreme Islamists. That is the
:04:39. > :04:43.key thing to watch. They need to establish who did it. They need to
:04:43. > :04:49.isolate the violence and then say, here are the Democratic moderates
:04:49. > :04:55.and here are the people that are trying to fuel extremism. We need
:04:55. > :05:03.other countries to try and help. And you mentioned the shock in the
:05:03. > :05:11.country itself. How are ordinary people during their future? --
:05:11. > :05:14.regarding. People are worried about security and about these militias.
:05:14. > :05:20.And they are thugs and not in police uniforms and intimidating
:05:20. > :05:25.people from different parties. Officers have been attacked. It has
:05:25. > :05:29.been on both sides we have had attacks. Tunisia is different from
:05:29. > :05:35.other parts of the Arab world. They have got a strong trade union
:05:35. > :05:41.tradition and they are very strong. And the person assassinated had a
:05:41. > :05:46.strong link with the trade unions. Many people in Tunisia are part of
:05:46. > :05:53.trade unions. They are worried about the cladding doubt that was
:05:53. > :06:01.happening and general striking. -- clamping down. What would the
:06:01. > :06:06.American opinion be? They will be upset and it is part of a sense of
:06:06. > :06:11.helplessness as they look at Egypt, Syria and this entire region and
:06:11. > :06:16.the changes in the past couple of years. There is a sense that
:06:16. > :06:21.American interests are no closer and if anything further away. I
:06:21. > :06:26.think it is at the limit of American power. They will certainly
:06:26. > :06:32.feel sadness that the democracy they were hoping for is far away.
:06:32. > :06:35.Can it be recovered? It is very difficult to know. We must be
:06:35. > :06:40.patient and remember how long it took for democracy to work in
:06:40. > :06:46.Europe. It is a short time since we have stopped killing each other in
:06:46. > :06:51.Europe. It does take hundreds of years sometimes and we are
:06:51. > :06:55.expecting these countries to go through what has been a 1,000 year
:06:55. > :06:59.history forecast with anyone year and I am not sure if that is
:06:59. > :07:04.reasonable. People are saying they are uncivilised. Whiting Bay not
:07:04. > :07:11.understand that with an election that is the end of the matter? --
:07:11. > :07:16.why do they not understand. former US Defence Secretary told us
:07:17. > :07:26.that he was actually in favour of arming the rebels fighting for
:07:27. > :07:28.
:07:29. > :07:33.forces loyal to the President. -- fighting against. And then a report
:07:33. > :07:41.was rebuffed by the White House. Given what they are saying and what
:07:41. > :07:45.he has said this week, where do we go from here? The first answer is
:07:45. > :07:49.that it would probably not have worked politically for President
:07:49. > :07:53.Obama seeking re-election. The country would have been embroiled
:07:53. > :07:58.in another foreign war and it is very hard to explain that two
:07:58. > :08:02.Americans. Whether it would have me that terribly shifted the balance
:08:02. > :08:08.of power and hastened the exit of Bashar al-Assad, I have not got a
:08:08. > :08:11.clue. A lot of his top people were saying that you have to get
:08:11. > :08:17.involved and you have to act in a humanitarian way and protect
:08:17. > :08:22.civilians getting slaughtered. And President Obama and his trust said
:08:22. > :08:27.it was too big a risk and they would not do it. If the question
:08:27. > :08:32.was put to him now, do you think he would have a different opinion?
:08:32. > :08:36.is being put to him now and I do not have a clue. It is a
:08:36. > :08:42.complicated problem. Some people think they are being harmed by
:08:42. > :08:48.somebody anyway. That is the point. Of course America is reluctant to
:08:48. > :08:56.go on to the ground and why would they not be? But can we afford not
:08:56. > :09:01.to? What we see happening in Mali and it is similar to Libya where
:09:01. > :09:06.they are sorting the problem out and then you have got an army that
:09:06. > :09:10.have moved elsewhere and you have got to be very careful. Looking
:09:10. > :09:15.elsewhere is unfortunately not going to work. We need to find a
:09:15. > :09:21.way to contain that threat because it is a direct threat to us. At the
:09:21. > :09:25.same time we meet another means of civilising the area but certainly
:09:25. > :09:30.we cannot just pretend this is going to go away because it will
:09:30. > :09:35.not. It is interesting because given the other countries in the
:09:35. > :09:39.Arab Spring, nobody wants to touch Syria. Because nobody knows what
:09:39. > :09:45.the format will be and that is two dimensions, the humanitarian scale
:09:45. > :09:50.of the problem, which is huge. A report was published about the
:09:50. > :09:55.problems with water and sanitation and water treatment is down to just
:09:55. > :09:59.10% and levels are down to historic levels. Everybody says that this is
:09:59. > :10:05.happening on our watch and especially after the speeches
:10:05. > :10:11.President Obama gave when he spoke about what happened in Bosnia and
:10:11. > :10:14.that we would not let this happen again, it is happening again. And
:10:14. > :10:22.the other side is the political fall-out. Israel have been bombing
:10:22. > :10:26.the board refused days ago. We have got big problems in Iraq. Rebels
:10:26. > :10:29.are saying let them keep fighting it out until one side is so
:10:29. > :10:33.exhausted that they will surrender but I do not think that is a
:10:33. > :10:39.solution and I think the solution has to be political. That short cut
:10:39. > :10:47.is not going to work. Will they disarm or should the rebels be
:10:47. > :10:50.armed? But you do not know who you are arming. You have no idea where
:10:50. > :10:55.the weapons are going to end up and possibly they might be aimed
:10:55. > :10:59.against yourself. I think in the end, discussions will be the only
:10:59. > :11:05.answer. It looks like we have got an opening but some rebels are very
:11:05. > :11:09.much against discussions. It looks like other people are involved in
:11:09. > :11:15.trying to get some sort of an agreement. When you have got 60,000
:11:15. > :11:19.dead and some sort of humanitarian catastrophe, aiming for peace seems
:11:19. > :11:25.to be, even if it is less than satisfactory, it is better than a
:11:25. > :11:28.small war when you do not know what the outcome will be. It is 22
:11:28. > :11:33.months since it happened. The President you have said is probably
:11:33. > :11:39.being asked these questions again. Can he sits there has leader of the
:11:39. > :11:44.free world? He must take action. have heard this a not in the news
:11:44. > :11:51.and I have a feeling he is not inclined. I do not see them taking
:11:51. > :11:56.a more active stance. But it is guesswork. This is being decided at
:11:56. > :12:01.the National Security Council with the top five, or six people but I
:12:02. > :12:05.think she is hoping it is going to go away. I have been in and out of
:12:05. > :12:10.the region for years and this is probably the worst humanitarian
:12:10. > :12:14.situation we have confronted and the US is looking the other way. As
:12:14. > :12:19.I do not know is that will last but I do not see the pressures being
:12:19. > :12:23.brought upon him politically to make him change course. He is on
:12:23. > :12:29.something of a high and he is focused on the domestic economy and
:12:29. > :12:34.the battles with the Republicans and I think he is going to let this
:12:34. > :12:39.drift, cruel as that sounds. That seems to be how he is leading.
:12:39. > :12:43.it might not be the most self- interested thing. Are we sure that
:12:43. > :12:48.Western intervention and particularly American does anything
:12:48. > :12:53.other than stir up extremism and the idea that this is all an
:12:53. > :12:58.outside invasion? Countries need to create their own founding myths.
:12:58. > :13:03.You cannot create a good one out of America coming in and affecting the
:13:03. > :13:07.outcome. I think in the end countries have to decide their fate.
:13:07. > :13:12.It does not have to be American swooping in which troops and an
:13:12. > :13:18.invasion but it is to take it from a political point of view. We have
:13:18. > :13:21.seen that in meetings with opposition leaders. It is at least
:13:21. > :13:27.taking that political interest which does not seem to have been
:13:27. > :13:32.shown. Political interest his interest but it is not really
:13:32. > :13:37.working on the ground. But it is better than not having it. It is
:13:37. > :13:40.not a silver bullet so to speak but it is definitely better than theirs.
:13:41. > :13:47.It is interesting that they are speaking about the ideas that they
:13:47. > :13:53.have had, but they are now not in a position to do it, the former head
:13:53. > :13:56.of the army and the former defence secretary. But they have met with
:13:56. > :14:05.Bashar al-Assad several times and I think they will see a greater
:14:05. > :14:15.interest coming out. Let us hope so. You mention the European threat.
:14:15. > :14:23.
:14:23. > :14:33.Why do you think Syria is different There has been the traditional
:14:33. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.influence of Russia in Syria, so I think that has been an issue.
:14:38. > :14:44.Especially with the attitude that the Europeans have had two words
:14:44. > :14:49.air. The intervention was very different to what happened in Libya.
:14:49. > :14:55.Polly Toynbee was reminding us, it is difficult to understand who are
:14:55. > :15:02.the good guys. Where do you call, who do you are, what do you do? It
:15:02. > :15:07.is a complex situation, with the religious divisions. We knew the
:15:07. > :15:13.situation was coming, so why was there not a plan? The thing we're
:15:13. > :15:17.not mentioning his we have not used the word Iran. It is rather a
:15:17. > :15:27.central to this. The reason there is no clear path and from Europe is
:15:27. > :15:32.that nobody can figure out how Iran plays in up with Syria. -- are the
:15:32. > :15:35.reason there is no clear plan from Europe. Syria is the most
:15:35. > :15:41.complicated because there is no scenario where you can walk-in and
:15:41. > :15:47.say, this will work. The US could have taken a more active
:15:47. > :15:52.humanitarian role, providing relief for the people caught up in this.
:15:52. > :15:57.But I do not see any great military solution to this. The UN in the
:15:57. > :16:04.middle of this is seemingly impotent? It does look as if this
:16:04. > :16:08.channel has opened up. The current leader of the opposition group,
:16:08. > :16:15.insofar as it is a group, has quite a lot of support and is opening up
:16:15. > :16:18.this channel with the UN. But quite a lot of his side have said that we
:16:18. > :16:23.would not up to President Assad under any circumstances, apart from
:16:23. > :16:28.how does he leave the country? Looking at what they were thinking
:16:28. > :16:38.of doing, at the proposal was to arm carefully vetted rebel groups,
:16:38. > :16:42.which they hoped would win them allies within the rebel ranks.
:16:42. > :16:48.would call them and us, do you believe in human rights? It is very
:16:48. > :16:52.hard. They will hear what they want to hear. We are all laughing
:16:52. > :16:57.because it is completely impractical. We will leave that and
:16:57. > :17:00.move on to the issue of food. We are what we eat, but do we know
:17:01. > :17:03.exactly what we are eating? Not in the UK and Ireland, it would seem,
:17:04. > :17:06.where horsemeat has been found in products instead of beef and pork
:17:06. > :17:08.DNA in halal foods provided to prisoners. The Environment
:17:09. > :17:15.Secretary says the evidence so far suggests it is either criminal
:17:15. > :17:19.activity or gross negligence. No matter what do you think about
:17:19. > :17:27.eating horsemeat, I think the issue is that we need to know what is in
:17:27. > :17:30.our food. Absolutely. There are so many parts of the story. One is
:17:30. > :17:39.that if I am buying something that says beef, I need to know that is
:17:39. > :17:46.what it is. And then there is the prisoner's food, which was supposed
:17:46. > :17:51.to be halal food, containing pork. After a mad cow disease, we are
:17:51. > :17:57.just getting that safety and the procedures within it, but this is
:17:57. > :18:04.criminal activity. The idea that this would be accepted as negligent
:18:04. > :18:14.-- as negligence is not acceptable. The fact that all sides have said
:18:14. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:17.there is going to be an investigation, that is good. The
:18:17. > :18:22.fact that the Food Standards Agency are saying, keep buying packaged
:18:22. > :18:28.food, because nothing has confirmed that this is bad for your health,
:18:28. > :18:35.it is this idea of, please, keep beasting the industry. It has
:18:35. > :18:38.spread out within Europe now, not just the UK and Ireland. Yes, for
:18:38. > :18:48.the first time, horse-trading in Europe is starting to have another
:18:48. > :18:58.meaning. This is a story that is very important. We need to stop and
:18:58. > :18:59.
:18:59. > :19:05.think. We can see what is happening to horses sold in Poland and
:19:05. > :19:11.Romania. We need more of Europe, not less Europe. When it comes to
:19:11. > :19:19.food safety, we need more controls. But when it comes to Britain, this
:19:19. > :19:24.is a story of putting profit before safety, simple as that. Mad cow
:19:24. > :19:30.disease came about for exactly this reason. You are at it again. You
:19:30. > :19:39.have not learned the lesson. It cost the industry billions. This
:19:39. > :19:43.crisis will cost a lot to the economy. And it -- and the case for
:19:43. > :19:49.the defence, aid seems that the suppliers have let down at the
:19:49. > :19:55.companies involved. Why is this coming from Europe into Britain and
:19:55. > :20:00.not other countries. I do not know. Polly Toynbee? We are seeing so
:20:00. > :20:06.many things exposed in this story in an interesting way. These are
:20:06. > :20:12.cheap products. If you buy a beefburger, I decent one, it will
:20:12. > :20:19.cost �1. If you are a family living on the edge of poverty to buy these
:20:19. > :20:25.products, and value products can cost 10 pence each. By lot these
:20:25. > :20:31.disgusting beef burgers need have less than 50 % meat. They can have
:20:31. > :20:36.30 % fat. They can have collagen, and it can have something up on the
:20:36. > :20:42.packet that looks harmless called seasoning, that is actually made of
:20:42. > :20:47.dried and ground-up animal hides. That base the protein content. And
:20:47. > :20:54.people wonder why the poor in this country do not eat well and get fat.
:20:54. > :21:00.These products are loaded with fat. It is about inequality. People like
:21:00. > :21:06.us do not eat those products. At Findus lasagne, very cheap, utterly
:21:06. > :21:11.disgusting. This is a company that was bought up by private equity.
:21:11. > :21:17.There is a lovely picture in the Guardian today of the owner of the
:21:17. > :21:24.company riding a polo pony. Perhaps he put that in it! The price of
:21:24. > :21:30.beef has risen in the world but the price of horsemeat is 75 % cheaper.
:21:30. > :21:34.The cheaper ingredient is being put in in the processing plants. I do
:21:34. > :21:41.not blame Britain. I see this as coming from the Continent and the
:21:41. > :21:45.suppliers. I suspect it is organised criminal activity and
:21:45. > :21:50.people have been getting away with it for years and now they have been
:21:50. > :21:54.caught. They must know that this thing will spread in the next week
:21:54. > :22:00.or two. We are likely to see reports in many countries have
:22:00. > :22:04.contaminated products. It is just a story about Sean Bean is in this
:22:04. > :22:09.quest for profit, whether it is a criminal gang or corporations, they
:22:09. > :22:15.will do whatever they can get away with to cut corners, whether it is
:22:15. > :22:20.safety in cars or labelling in food. The consumers cannot trust what
:22:20. > :22:28.they are buying. So, more regulation? I would never call for
:22:28. > :22:32.more regulation from Brussels. It sounds naive, but better
:22:32. > :22:38.enforcement, just a sense of decency that you do not market
:22:38. > :22:42.something as beef when you know it is horsemeat. There is one aspect
:22:42. > :22:47.to this, people might turn away from processed food and go back to
:22:47. > :22:52.buying locally and making their own dinner? If they can afford it. We
:22:52. > :22:57.are going to have a million more children living in poverty at the
:22:58. > :23:03.end of this Parliament. One million extra. There are so many families
:23:03. > :23:08.that can really only afford to buy the very cheapest. We have three
:23:08. > :23:13.new food banks opening every week for people who cannot afford any
:23:13. > :23:19.food at all. They do not have choices. We can all say, I eat
:23:19. > :23:25.healthily, but children will not eat vegetables. You end up buying
:23:25. > :23:31.beefburgers and hoping for the best. This is a big social question. What
:23:31. > :23:40.we eat is what we are, but also what we are as a society. If there
:23:40. > :23:45.is a movement in its late that has started. They say that what we are
:23:45. > :23:50.is what we eat and foodies energy for every human being on the planet.
:23:50. > :23:55.We have to start sourcing products locally. The reason it happens in
:23:55. > :24:01.Britain but not in France or Italy, is that because in Italy and France
:24:01. > :24:06.there is a culture of local food. It does not bring people to buy
:24:07. > :24:14.processed food that you buy in Britain. There have been scandals
:24:14. > :24:19.in Italy. Yes, but in Italy you do eat horsemeat, but it is supposed
:24:19. > :24:27.to be a delicacy. It is part of the local tradition and something that
:24:27. > :24:30.happens next door to you. How do we get back to a more a kind of local
:24:30. > :24:37.economy that reduces food that you can know when it comes from?
:24:37. > :24:40.comes back to money. Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. This is
:24:40. > :24:46.people that cannot afford to go to their local butcher who has a
:24:46. > :24:51.beautiful display of the best products. It is the lack of the
:24:51. > :24:57.ability to buy the products. Hopefully this will encourage
:24:57. > :25:01.regulation, not necessarily from Brussels, that allows people to get
:25:01. > :25:06.quality products at a decent price. Having said that, the most
:25:06. > :25:11.immediate issue is to the Package figs out there in the stores now,
:25:11. > :25:21.it is being said that they are safe to eat. I do not think that is
:25:21. > :25:28.
:25:28. > :25:32.necessarily right. -- the packaged foods. Even the labelling, if they
:25:32. > :25:38.are right, it does not tell you what is in there. Think about
:25:38. > :25:42.animal hides ground-up as seasoning. That is all for now.