:00:03. > :00:13.I will be back at one o'clock with a full news bulletin. Now it is
:00:13. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:32.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. A home-grown British terror
:00:32. > :00:42.plot that could have killed hundreds of people. What are the
:00:42. > :00:42.
:00:42. > :00:48.consequences and for Tobal -- possible return of a comic. Our
:00:48. > :00:54.guests today are Mark Schubert a writer. Kate Dourian and Henry Chu
:00:54. > :01:03.from the Los Angeles Times and Janet Daley from the Sunday
:01:03. > :01:07.Telegraph. The British security services MI5 stopped the plotters
:01:07. > :01:11.before they could do any damage. The bad news is that a tiny
:01:11. > :01:17.minority of British-born who seem to hate this country so much that
:01:17. > :01:24.they want to murder and maim at random our citizens. There were
:01:24. > :01:29.some ludicrous elements, but it was very dangerous. Being a buffoon
:01:29. > :01:34.does not preclude the possibility that he successfully let off a bomb.
:01:34. > :01:39.It could explain why people in the community seemed to be aware of
:01:39. > :01:45.what they were doing, or where that they were trained in Pakistan,
:01:45. > :01:51.terrorist training camp, didn't feel it was essential to report
:01:51. > :01:57.them. But a worrying development. There is almost nothing you can do
:01:57. > :02:06.to prevent people who are misfits or fantasists from getting involved
:02:06. > :02:11.in alien, and the culture terrorist plots. Nonetheless, there is
:02:11. > :02:19.something seriously wrong. It is probably the Muslim community that
:02:19. > :02:24.will have to deal with it. How do you view this? A lot of plots have
:02:24. > :02:29.been stopped or have just not worked out, thankfully.
:02:30. > :02:35.Intelligence agencies are getting better at this. I think as Janet
:02:35. > :02:40.was saying in terms of the Muslim community itself, in stopping this
:02:40. > :02:44.itself. I think one of the plotters who was convicted a few days ago
:02:44. > :02:49.had recruited four young men who were then set up to Pakistan as
:02:49. > :02:56.well to receive training. Their own families called and said, what are
:02:56. > :03:00.you doing? Get back here. At least there is some community
:03:00. > :03:06.accountability and I think that is helpful. In the US we have that is
:03:06. > :03:13.well. One of the bits that was lost on this, these people went out and
:03:13. > :03:17.collected, allegedly on behalf of in a perfectly charitable group
:03:17. > :03:25.called Muslim Aid. There is great irritation in the Muslim community
:03:25. > :03:30.about that. Absolutely. If you poll people in the committee, if you
:03:30. > :03:38.asked them what they thought of these young men, they would be
:03:38. > :03:43.outraged. What you make of this? You were based in the Gulf. What do
:03:43. > :03:52.you see in this? Britain is a very tolerant society. If you go
:03:52. > :03:57.elsewhere in Europe, there are anti-immigration parties that
:03:57. > :04:01.thrive. If you Britain so much, you are in a democratic society, you
:04:01. > :04:10.can talk about your grievances instead of trying to blow things up
:04:10. > :04:14.and poisoned people. They are like the Three stooges but scary,
:04:14. > :04:18.incompetent, they lost a lot of money trying to play the market.
:04:18. > :04:23.Apparently they were heard saying that by the time the committee was
:04:23. > :04:32.due, they would be dead. You would have the same advantages that you
:04:32. > :04:36.have in this country. -- MOT. I think there is a danger now that
:04:36. > :04:42.this sort of tolerance is going to be pushed to the limit in Britain
:04:43. > :04:47.because it has been very tolerant. Mark, you write on these issues.
:04:47. > :04:53.You write on how the intelligence agencies have changed. That is the
:04:53. > :05:00.one big positive that we should focus on. The fact that the Muslim
:05:00. > :05:06.community's contribution to the process of where intelligence has
:05:06. > :05:16.come from has been limited. It has fed into the ways the counter
:05:16. > :05:17.
:05:17. > :05:23.terrorist programme has been tailored. It is the case that
:05:23. > :05:27.ground-level intelligence was gathered for a long period of time.
:05:27. > :05:30.After the seventh July, 7 -- 7/7 bombing, there was a sense that
:05:30. > :05:36.something had to be done to ensure that things were not being missed
:05:36. > :05:39.at ground level, hence the decision by MI5 to set up regional offices,
:05:39. > :05:47.of now which there are several. They could gather intelligence that
:05:47. > :05:50.was brought to them by the Muslim community or by the police. There
:05:50. > :05:53.has been a tailoring of the counter-terrorist effort that has
:05:53. > :05:58.been part in response to the fact that there is this limited amount
:05:58. > :06:02.of intelligence coming in. Have they got better people who are
:06:02. > :06:07.plugged into the community more or? People who speak certain languages
:06:07. > :06:15.that they did not have perhaps 10 years ago? That is an important
:06:15. > :06:23.issue. The group from which intelligence officers are recruited
:06:23. > :06:28.from has grown. We have seen what is happening in Syria and Libya and
:06:28. > :06:35.Egypt, we have the problems in Algeria and Mali, the threat is
:06:35. > :06:39.changing, too? I do not think the factor that there be new seaters
:06:39. > :06:45.where there are conflicts emerging is changing the attitudes of people
:06:45. > :06:50.within the UK. I think essentially they have for a very long period of
:06:50. > :06:56.time there had been issues that have fed into the mentality that is
:06:57. > :07:01.reckoned -- has radical eyes people. Southern Spain was part of the
:07:01. > :07:08.Muslim world, Kashmir, hugely important issues. There is always a
:07:08. > :07:12.grievance you can pick on. Absolutely. One thing we have not
:07:12. > :07:16.mentioned is that there are terror camps training people in Pakistan.
:07:16. > :07:21.That is something the Pakistan Government and British Government,
:07:21. > :07:26.somehow the Pakistan problem has to be... We invaded Afghanistan
:07:26. > :07:30.because we were trying to get rid of the training camps and the
:07:30. > :07:40.hotbeds of Al-Qaeda activity. Now something has to be done about that.
:07:40. > :07:44.Her in your book you talk about the efficacy of them. Do they work?
:07:44. > :07:49.in the end they will create a temporary window. The point is that
:07:49. > :07:54.we are treating -- dealing with the social phenomenon. It is global,
:07:54. > :07:59.there are a lot of people involved with it under a lot of people done
:07:59. > :08:04.to it. Which is why the point about Pakistan is terribly important. My
:08:04. > :08:08.experience in the past has been in Somalia, and Afghanistan, these are
:08:08. > :08:15.countries that are dysfunctional. Pakistan is heading in that
:08:15. > :08:22.direction. How do you see the threat? You report across the
:08:22. > :08:27.region, you live in the Gulf and you can understand their lack of
:08:27. > :08:32.stability in Syria. This is something that I think is baffling
:08:32. > :08:37.to the West. The fact that these people are willing to die. If you
:08:37. > :08:42.look at the attack in Algeria, it wasn't about the attack on the gas
:08:42. > :08:47.plant which was pretty brutal. It wasn't about ideology or religion,
:08:47. > :08:56.it was a mercenary attack. It is a result as a result of the Gaddafi
:08:56. > :09:04.regime. Mali on the verge of being app state -- feels state. And Yemen,
:09:04. > :09:14.and these people get inspiration from the ease clergymen or shakes
:09:14. > :09:17.
:09:17. > :09:24.who are spewing vitriol. The number of hits for Almaty who is on
:09:24. > :09:29.YouTube -- and Awlaki. It has gone up. In the case of what happened
:09:29. > :09:39.and Algeria, you have a one-night cigarette smuggler who was making
:09:39. > :09:40.
:09:40. > :09:48.money. -- One eyed. Her it in these fields States you have a mish-mash.
:09:48. > :09:58.It is not just failed states. The IRA was involved in drug-dealing as
:09:58. > :09:58.
:09:58. > :10:03.much as I was in politics. Terrorism and crime is not just
:10:03. > :10:09.focused on field States. Al-Qaeda is different from the ivory in the
:10:09. > :10:18.state that it was an organisation that had certain demands that can
:10:18. > :10:24.be met in this world. Al-Qaeda is a different type of organisation.
:10:24. > :10:27.is very decentralised. Single people have tried to go out,
:10:27. > :10:37.thinking they have been inspired by the rhetoric of some clerics. I
:10:37. > :10:37.
:10:37. > :10:42.think that has become the worry. These loan individuals who go out
:10:42. > :10:47.and they tried that in New York a few months ago. It is not that
:10:47. > :10:54.difficult to kill innocent people if you want to do so? No, not on a
:10:54. > :11:01.large scale. Her if you are feasts -- if you are no freelance lunatic,
:11:01. > :11:10.you can do this. We have seen people getting guns who are not
:11:10. > :11:18.radical lysed. To come back to counter terrorism and the way it
:11:18. > :11:24.has been formulated, there is the rogue killer, he is out there. It
:11:24. > :11:29.is interesting that on a whole, the plots that have been seen to be the
:11:29. > :11:36.most potentially serious in the UK, have always involved groups. That
:11:36. > :11:40.is part of the profile. There is a group mentality. There is a group
:11:40. > :11:44.mentality and there are other things in the profile. They are
:11:44. > :11:49.outside the mainstream of their own communities. Her that is terribly
:11:49. > :11:53.important. That is one of the reasons why the communities
:11:53. > :11:57.themselves have limited access often to the intelligence that is
:11:57. > :12:01.their the most value. The people that other likely terrorists are
:12:01. > :12:07.keeping things secret from their own communities. There is not that
:12:07. > :12:13.there is a great pool of discussion going on. How it is not people who
:12:13. > :12:22.are social outcasts. We had a group of doctors in Glasgow.
:12:22. > :12:28.Professionally qualified. They were living in council flats which they
:12:28. > :12:33.used as bomb factories. Let's move on. 10 years ago the world was
:12:33. > :12:38.preparing for war in Iraq. Many hundreds of thousands marched in
:12:38. > :12:46.London and elsewhere. But the war against Saddam Hussein was fought,
:12:46. > :12:56.yet what are the consequences now? How do you think it seems now as
:12:56. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:15.people look at the political I think it is not much safer for
:13:15. > :13:18.Iraqi people. Yes, there is more oil production coming up, but is it
:13:18. > :13:24.filtering back to the communities? There is massive corruption,
:13:24. > :13:31.bureaucracy. A lot of companies operating the have chosen to make
:13:31. > :13:34.deals with Pakistan. It remains to be seen which way it will go.
:13:35. > :13:40.Relations got with neighbours, particularly Torquay. The whole
:13:40. > :13:49.situation that Syria, there are a lot of the regional issues that
:13:49. > :13:57.play. I do not think the world is necessarily safer. Can you see the
:13:57. > :14:07.world a safer? If you're writing the history of this, you could see
:14:07. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:14.George W Bush handed a major victory to the enemy. Unfortunately,
:14:14. > :14:22.Iraq in these last couple of years has fallen off the radar or fire
:14:22. > :14:27.diplomats. Most of Baghdad news bureaux have closed. This
:14:27. > :14:36.sectarianism now you have in Iraq is increasing again. If the
:14:36. > :14:40.minority is protesting almost daily. Yes, it is dangerous. You have to
:14:40. > :14:45.remember what the original impetus was? There was going to be created
:14:45. > :14:50.a fledgling democratic society in Iraq which would some higher, they
:14:50. > :14:55.knew the risk they were taking by getting rid of so Dame -- Saddam
:14:55. > :15:00.Hussein. But at the same time, they were supposed to be creating a
:15:00. > :15:04.situation where there would be a democratic situation could act as a
:15:04. > :15:14.model for their area. The invaded and then they got out. What
:15:14. > :15:18.
:15:18. > :15:26.happened was the failed at nation- building, which they had said they
:15:26. > :15:33.would do. Paid just abandon the whole effect and the end result was
:15:33. > :15:36.inevitable. I still believe that in 20 years' time, there will be
:15:36. > :15:41.something of a democratic society in Iraq. It will taking up a
:15:42. > :15:44.generation at least, but I do still believe that a establishing
:15:44. > :15:52.democratic societies and institutions in these countries is
:15:52. > :15:57.the only way. They might not be an Iraq in 20 years. The tribal
:15:57. > :16:04.problems in those areas and the sectarian problems are a trapdoor
:16:04. > :16:10.and something will have to be done. As with all foreign interventions,
:16:10. > :16:16.one benefits from the short period in which the outside air plays a
:16:16. > :16:21.role, but that in many issues quickly. But can egg become the
:16:21. > :16:28.beneficiary of the broader Arab Spring phenomenon? It seems to me
:16:28. > :16:36.distressingly unlikely. It seems to me it has become rather an island,
:16:36. > :16:40.not subject to the same trends as exist in other countries. Rather
:16:40. > :16:46.unenlightened, such a short time after it appeared it would become
:16:46. > :16:54.more enlightened. I feel uncertain about which direction it is going
:16:54. > :17:01.in. It is an irony that Iraqis can be very successful around the world,
:17:01. > :17:10.but unsuccessful in their countries. Yes, they count. The level of
:17:10. > :17:16.violence recently, but it is not reported. It is in all other
:17:16. > :17:22.interests, because Iraq is going to it account for hour 45 % of her
:17:22. > :17:29.energy demands over the next decade. Gradually they have infrastructure
:17:29. > :17:33.issues that one say resolve, and it is not true, the Americans did not
:17:33. > :17:38.get most of there oil. The companies operating there are
:17:38. > :17:41.Chinese and Japanese and British Petroleum. Iraq is very important
:17:41. > :17:48.for the future security of Orrell supply and if it does disintegrate,
:17:48. > :17:50.it would be very interesting to see the Kurds could go ahead. If the
:17:50. > :18:00.go-ahead with an independent pipeline through the north, that
:18:00. > :18:04.
:18:04. > :18:08.will be a big game changer. It would be as they get more autonomy.
:18:08. > :18:14.Two of the most obvious casualties in terms of reputation would be
:18:14. > :18:20.Tony Blair and George W Bush. Tony Blair's reputation has not really
:18:20. > :18:25.recovered. Neither has George to play you push's. There are others
:18:25. > :18:29.who will insist it has the right thing to do, but down in history,
:18:29. > :18:34.it will not be treated so kindly. You were not a great fan of Tony
:18:34. > :18:40.Blair anyway, but do you are agree with that? Really very hard to
:18:40. > :18:47.predict how this will look in 10 or 15 or 20 years' time. It was a
:18:47. > :18:52.horrendous gamble. The whole expedition became discredited, but
:18:52. > :18:57.at the same time, when you look back, Saddam Hussein was causing
:18:57. > :19:01.genocide against his own people, it was not just weapons of mass
:19:01. > :19:08.destruction, there was a possible moral case for removing that
:19:08. > :19:14.Government. But that was not the case that was made. No, but it was
:19:14. > :19:20.part of the argument. That the minorities within Iraq needed
:19:20. > :19:25.protecting. We have always set in these situations that there was
:19:25. > :19:31.this hall class of politically sophisticated, educated people who
:19:31. > :19:35.would be prepared to go back. The Iraqi diaspora was going to return
:19:35. > :19:42.home and create stability and the beginnings of democracy. That did
:19:42. > :19:46.not happen and for that, we are really culpable. Just one other
:19:46. > :19:50.thought. 10 years ago, a lot of people marched against this war and
:19:50. > :19:54.you talk to some of them now, they will say, no one listened to was.
:19:54. > :20:00.What irritated them about the nature of democracy is you do not
:20:00. > :20:04.have quite the voice you think you have. Yes, the marches across
:20:04. > :20:09.Europe were stunning in terms of the numbers they are true, get the
:20:09. > :20:17.leaders felt they could go ahead with what they did. The hope would
:20:17. > :20:22.be that they could nation build and prove them wrong. But they didn't.
:20:22. > :20:25.You cannot have a Government policy determined by marching in the
:20:25. > :20:29.streets. You could turn out an extraordinary number of people in
:20:29. > :20:32.the street for the restoration of capital punishment. But Government
:20:32. > :20:42.policy has to be determined by the democratic process, not by the
:20:42. > :20:45.number of people you can get to turn out in the street. Silvio
:20:45. > :20:48.Berlusconi is a bit of a puzzle. Outside Italy he is generally
:20:49. > :20:51.regarded as a joke - or worse. The bunga bunga prime minister with
:20:51. > :20:55.dodgy friends and an interesting social life. Inside Italy he is
:20:55. > :20:58.still loved by those who saw him as a saviour of the nation. As he
:20:58. > :21:01.tries, like Frank Sinatra, just one more comeback, what are we to make
:21:01. > :21:06.of Mr Berlusconi? He is a symptom of the perpetual crisis that faces
:21:06. > :21:13.Italian politics. The old love Italy, we all love the food and the
:21:13. > :21:18.country. In a way, all the love its constant, unsettled nature.
:21:18. > :21:23.Berlusconi's success has depended on the floors of Italian political
:21:23. > :21:27.culture and Italian political life. Clearly there are people he think
:21:27. > :21:33.he is adorable and there are people who cannot stand the sound of his
:21:33. > :21:38.name. He does create the extreme, is he good for Italy? I think one
:21:38. > :21:43.has to go back to the conditions that preceded his at last downfall,
:21:43. > :21:48.because he has had several. He really was very discredited with
:21:48. > :21:53.regard to what he would do for the economy. That was the crucial thing,
:21:53. > :21:59.would he take the steps to European Central Bank was calling for? No,
:21:59. > :22:03.and high not? From that perspective, he would be very bad news if he
:22:03. > :22:08.were to be re-elected. underestimate what a great
:22:08. > :22:17.communicator he is. His charm, his humour, his self-deprecation which
:22:17. > :22:21.does not translate easily into English. He is now it anti-European
:22:21. > :22:27.enough to say to people he will stand up to the frightening people
:22:27. > :22:35.in Brussels. As far as we can see, there is not
:22:35. > :22:42.going to be a majority, there will be a coalition. He may be in it. He
:22:42. > :22:46.has not really gone away. You can be a great communicator when you
:22:46. > :22:50.own the media. That is not so hard. When he burst on the scene 20 years
:22:50. > :22:55.ago, it is not that he was completely devoid of ideas, he was
:22:55. > :23:01.a showman and a charmer. He had a plan for a comic reforms that would
:23:02. > :23:07.have been sensible at the time, but he delivered on none of them. --
:23:07. > :23:12.economic reforms. To you come from a society in the United States
:23:12. > :23:20.where there is constantly it a search from someone who will rescue
:23:21. > :23:26.the country from politics as usual. Somebody outside politics. But it
:23:26. > :23:31.never wins. But there is a hankering in a lot of democracies
:23:31. > :23:38.for somebody a bit different. Italians do not take their national
:23:38. > :23:43.Government very seriously. At least he was not owned by the Mafia. The
:23:43. > :23:50.point is that Italians are much more or local. It is their regional
:23:50. > :23:53.Government, their local community and their families. They are
:23:53. > :24:02.resigned to the fact that the National Government is a joke, that
:24:02. > :24:10.is one of the reason they are so pro-European. Now there is at
:24:10. > :24:15.professional comedian running. So maybe he will be in the coalition.
:24:15. > :24:22.Apparently he never makes it television appearances.
:24:22. > :24:31.Sounds like the way ahead. It is one of the biggest economies in
:24:31. > :24:37.Europe and seems to be getting on quite well. Clearly there is a
:24:37. > :24:41.great hole in Brussels that the they will be able to continue. The
:24:41. > :24:48.credibility of Brussels, there is a referendum on that as part of the
:24:48. > :24:53.election. There is a real sense of Brussels being where there is
:24:53. > :25:00.credibility and domestic politics in Italy being something of a joke,
:25:00. > :25:07.Ince the running of a comedian as a candidate. The Tuscans have nothing
:25:07. > :25:15.in common with the Neapolitans. There is a real North South divide.
:25:15. > :25:21.80 not have a conception of unity, the only became a unified nation in
:25:21. > :25:30.the 1870s. It is not that Britain, which has had a national identity
:25:30. > :25:34.for hundreds of years. We will leave it there. We all agree with