:00:01. > :00:11.serious burns. I'll be back with the full bulletin of news at the top of
:00:11. > :00:28.
:00:28. > :00:33.the hour but now, it is time for Welcome to Dateline London. Chemical
:00:33. > :00:36.weapons, Syria and what should be done. Britain avoids a triple dip
:00:36. > :00:40.recession, but with even Germany feeling the pinch, does austerity
:00:40. > :00:46.actually work? And 20 years after the crime that shocked Britain, the
:00:46. > :00:55.murder of Stephen Lawrence. My guests today are Bernard Borrell,
:00:55. > :00:58.the Jamaican journalist, Abu Yahya al-Libi, -- Agnes Poirier, Abdel
:00:58. > :01:02.Bari Atwan and Dame Anne Leslie from the Daily Mail. Western intelligence
:01:02. > :01:07.agencies suggested this week that chemical weapons have been used in
:01:07. > :01:11.Syria by the Assad regime. Given the past history in Iraq remains a
:01:11. > :01:15.degree of caution but it's such weapons have been used, how does
:01:15. > :01:21.that change what outside powers should do? Do you believe, Bernard,
:01:21. > :01:23.that there is a case for these weapons being used? I do not have
:01:23. > :01:30.faith in Western intelligence any more. I do not believe their
:01:30. > :01:34.reports. Reminding you of what happened in preparation for the
:01:34. > :01:41.Iraqi war, with the weapons of mass destruction, which was fabricated
:01:41. > :01:47.consciously. I'm suspicious. I want to see concrete evidence from
:01:47. > :01:50.independent sources, not British intelligence or American FBI. We
:01:50. > :01:58.know what happened in Iraq. After ten years we discovered it was
:01:58. > :02:03.fabricated. Somebody from Iraq said they were working to plant weapons
:02:03. > :02:08.of mass disruption, and we discovered that it was a huge life.
:02:08. > :02:11.-- mass destruction. If there is a proper investigation, maybe it will
:02:11. > :02:19.be a different story but I believe that this kind of propaganda,
:02:19. > :02:26.talking about Assad using chemical weapons, I think we have to be
:02:26. > :02:30.honestly restrained. But personally, I have a feeling that this talk
:02:30. > :02:33.about weapons of mass destruction and chemical weapons, sarin gas,
:02:33. > :02:43.nerve gas, believe it is in preparation for something concocted
:02:43. > :02:48.by Britain and other countries. I am not wrong. I will tell you, the Emir
:02:48. > :02:56.of Qatar and the Saudi Foreign Minister was there. King Abdullah of
:02:56. > :03:00.Jordan was there. They were all there in Washington. What they are
:03:00. > :03:07.cooking for the Middle East is another war. The difference now, I
:03:07. > :03:11.was fooled first time around. used to fight on a about this. I was
:03:11. > :03:15.fooled by the fact that it was not just the CIA and the British, who
:03:15. > :03:21.were saying that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it was
:03:21. > :03:26.French and German intelligence services, as we understood it.
:03:26. > :03:30.Difference between then and now is that I'd do not think that President
:03:31. > :03:36.Obama wants to go to war. He cannot afford to go to war. It is his
:03:36. > :03:43.second term, and he does not want to go down in history as having brought
:03:43. > :03:48.the American people once again, because they are constantly going
:03:48. > :03:51.into war, the American people are now fed up with it. They want the
:03:51. > :03:57.economy to be curate, the American people, they do not want another
:03:58. > :04:01.war. Bush wanted another war, George W Bush, simply because he felt that
:04:01. > :04:09.there was unfinished business with his father, who had gone into
:04:09. > :04:15.quake, but did not pursue Saddam Hussein. -- Kuwait. Given that
:04:15. > :04:19.caution, when many people were fooled previously, do you think
:04:19. > :04:29.there is a case that chemical weapons have been used? I have no
:04:29. > :04:32.idea and have not been there. talking about independent
:04:32. > :04:37.investigation. There is a team of weapon inspectors sitting around in
:04:37. > :04:42.the sunshine in Cyprus. But the regime will not let the men so they
:04:42. > :04:47.cannot independently examine it. -- not let them in. Some people are
:04:47. > :04:51.going to refugee -- going to refugee camps to see if they can take your
:04:52. > :04:57.samples. But you remember when they started the same thing against
:04:57. > :05:01.Saddam Hussein. They knew that there were no weapons of mass destruction
:05:01. > :05:08.and despite that, they sent teams in. And they work investigated by
:05:08. > :05:16.the CIA. But I think the difference... Coming back to you, I
:05:16. > :05:21.think Bernard Howell has a point. There is evidence that Syria has the
:05:21. > :05:27.capability to have these weapons and use them. In this case, in the case
:05:27. > :05:32.of Iraq, there was speculation based on lies and fabrication of evidence.
:05:32. > :05:37.Returning to Gavin's question, it is independently proven by the United
:05:37. > :05:40.Nations inspectors who are sitting in Cyprus trip in wine, if it is
:05:40. > :05:46.woven that they have actually use these weapons, then the question
:05:46. > :05:51.is, what is the western government, America and the others, going to be
:05:51. > :05:56.doing about it? And that is the key question. As you said, can President
:05:56. > :06:02.Obama afford to do anything? He talked about it being a game
:06:02. > :06:07.changing position. He also talked about a red line, warning Syria. But
:06:07. > :06:10.it is one thing to talk about that, but I do not think he can afford to
:06:10. > :06:15.actually do anything on his own. The question is, most of these
:06:15. > :06:21.governments who are saying that this is unthinkable, they have not got an
:06:21. > :06:29.answer. I'd agree. It seems that President Obama is pushing the red
:06:29. > :06:35.line. Because he does not want to go to war. Then he should shut up.
:06:35. > :06:45.he does not want to go to war, he should shut up. You know how hard it
:06:45. > :06:48.
:06:48. > :06:57.is to shut up, Barry! I know. leave President Obama outside. In
:06:57. > :07:00.Britain, we cannot afford to go to war. There has been Libya, and with
:07:00. > :07:07.defence cuts, we cannot even consider it. You cannot afford to go
:07:07. > :07:10.to war. France has been in force in an African conflict. That is easy.
:07:10. > :07:13.The weapons were talking about do not exist in that country. The key
:07:13. > :07:19.difference is that Syria has the capability to cause massive
:07:19. > :07:22.destruction. And this is the reason full stop it is not about being
:07:22. > :07:25.unable to afford to go to war, it is about being unable to take the
:07:25. > :07:32.chance to go into a country with such capability, not knowing the
:07:32. > :07:35.consequences. But how do you go about doing that? It is the UN.
:07:35. > :07:42.Everything rests with the UN, except we have China and Russia so we are
:07:42. > :07:45.not as strong. Let me turn it, Barry, using your expertise. It is
:07:45. > :07:50.something that President Assad said a couple of weeks ago, echoed by
:07:50. > :07:54.some others, saying that you have not got a clue, the West, as do what
:07:54. > :07:59.you might do in the region, because you are arming people who may end up
:07:59. > :08:03.using the guns against you. The Israelis have said that they may end
:08:03. > :08:09.up using the guns against them. There are a number of concerns here.
:08:09. > :08:14.How do you see Al-Qaeda's role, or they are fellow travellers role in
:08:14. > :08:18.Syria? First, thank God you are not interfering, because when you
:08:18. > :08:23.interfere, you break it and you do not know how to fix it. You could
:08:23. > :08:26.not fix it in Libya or Iraq or Afghanistan. So thank God you are
:08:26. > :08:31.staying away. It is better this way. Secondly, all of this fuss about
:08:31. > :08:39.weapons of mass destruction, about Assad using these chemical weapons,
:08:39. > :08:48.the West are scared. Israel is scared. It is shivering that these
:08:48. > :08:54.weapons could fall into the hands of Al-Qaeda. There are basis set up in
:08:54. > :09:00.Syria, in the north and west, Libyan -- is really bases. Whenever there
:09:00. > :09:03.is a failed state in Libya or Syria, they say it is not Al-Qaeda. Now
:09:03. > :09:08.they are worried that Al-Qaeda could use it against Israel. And Al-Qaeda
:09:08. > :09:14.is very strong. And now it is deeply rooted in the Syrian society because
:09:14. > :09:23.they are recruiting young people at the age of 20. Do you accept that
:09:23. > :09:28.argument? I am not going to quarrel with that. Please do! You can!It is
:09:28. > :09:33.a tradition but I'm going to break it. We have this loose talk about
:09:33. > :09:38.arming the rebels. Which rebels? Exactly. Are we going to end up
:09:38. > :09:45.telling the FSA, the Free Syrian Army, which contains some of the
:09:45. > :09:52.rebels that we like, that they must keep these arms away from the most
:09:52. > :09:59.ruthless section of the insurgency? No, because their falling out with
:09:59. > :10:08.them already. What will happen is that one Free Syrian Army man said
:10:08. > :10:17.after you get rid of Saddam, I'm getting my dictators confused,
:10:17. > :10:21.President Assad, will be another war between the FSA and other fringe
:10:21. > :10:27.Islamic groups, which will be bloody. So we will be helping the
:10:27. > :10:31.insurgents, we think, but we will be helping the jihad tests. Is the
:10:31. > :10:35.consequence of that that even if chemical weapons have been used and
:10:35. > :10:43.there is this rhetoric about red lines and so on, actually, outside
:10:44. > :10:46.is really can do very little? It is also a question of timing. The
:10:46. > :10:50.rebellion is totally different today from the one it was 18 month ago.
:10:51. > :10:57.And we could have armed that rebellion 18 months ago and perhaps
:10:57. > :11:01.it would have done something. But today... 18 months of the
:11:01. > :11:07.Islamification of some of them. Things change very quick league. --
:11:07. > :11:12.quickly. We're not very good at being reactive. We intervene too
:11:12. > :11:17.late. One of the dangerous things when politicians make bold
:11:17. > :11:21.statements, backed by the threat of force, is that they cannot follow
:11:21. > :11:25.through and we reached deadlock. Iran is sitting there watching what
:11:25. > :11:32.Obama is going to do. He has made bold statements. Politically driven,
:11:32. > :11:38.and must admit, but the situation on the ground is this. As you as, no
:11:38. > :11:47.country can afford to go in and do anything. -- as you say. We can come
:11:47. > :11:54.up with options, safe zones... in a safe sown in Bosnia. Safe sown
:11:54. > :12:04.in? And was in a firefight. I asked King Abdullah of Jordan, I said, do
:12:04. > :12:04.
:12:04. > :12:08.you know that al-Nosra is rooted in Syria? Do you know that Al-Qaeda is
:12:08. > :12:15.established in Afghanistan. What can you do? And he said, our American
:12:15. > :12:22.friends told us that after their successful removal of the Assad
:12:22. > :12:25.regime, it would take two years to root out Al-Qaeda from Syria. It is
:12:25. > :12:30.ten years in Afghanistan and Iraq, 13 years in Afghanistan. It will
:12:30. > :12:36.take more than 30 years. On that happy note, let's move onto cheerful
:12:36. > :12:40.news about the economy. The good news about the British economy is
:12:40. > :12:44.that the patient has some kind of pulse, but the bad news is that the
:12:44. > :12:47.sickness continues and growth is miniscule. The American economy is
:12:47. > :12:50.growing in the German economy is in some degree of trouble. In Spain and
:12:51. > :12:56.southern Europe, unemployment is at levels which many people fear
:12:56. > :12:59.threaten social stability. So, has austerity failed? That is certainly
:12:59. > :13:05.the view from within the French Socialist party. Austerity is a
:13:05. > :13:10.waste of time? Strangely, in France you have people in government saying
:13:11. > :13:20.that we should stop austerity. But austerity has not started in France.
:13:20. > :13:26.It has not even kicked in. Does it translate into French? It is a tale
:13:26. > :13:33.of so many different stories. And of course there is the Euro, and
:13:33. > :13:36.sterling. And we see what Britain has been doing with the sterling. We
:13:36. > :13:40.only hoped on the continent that we could do the same with the Euro,
:13:40. > :13:49.which is far too high. The Germans do not want to have a monetary
:13:49. > :13:54.policy, and let it drop. exporter suffering. Absolutely.It
:13:54. > :13:59.is a piece of political genius to allow the pound to continue to
:13:59. > :14:04.devalue. Perhaps that is the secret. That is one of the reasons we did
:14:04. > :14:09.not want to join the euro. Because then you are in an iron cage, and
:14:09. > :14:16.you cannot manipulate it. You could. If the Germans only allowed it!
:14:16. > :14:20.Germans are getting very fed up, bailing out feckless countries.
:14:20. > :14:26.Well, they may leave the euro and that would solve problems. They
:14:26. > :14:31.will. As you know, there is a new party, a small party which is saying
:14:31. > :14:32.that they should leave the euro and then they would not have too. It is
:14:32. > :14:39.unconstitutional, apparently, according to the German
:14:39. > :14:43.constitution, for them to bail out feckless foreigners. It is not quite
:14:43. > :14:48.described as that but there is a point there. That is why it goes to
:14:48. > :14:55.the court so often. But... We blame the Germans, so the Germans have
:14:55. > :14:59.been shelling money out to feckless Southerners. We should not blame
:14:59. > :15:09.them, we should thank them! Honestly! You're saying it is
:15:09. > :15:12.
:15:12. > :15:17.because of them... Sterling has been used as a yo-yo. But it is too
:15:17. > :15:24.strong, the euro, and also inflation. Bring it back to what
:15:24. > :15:34.Gavin said, I would support what many more experienced professionals
:15:34. > :15:35.
:15:35. > :15:42.are saying, even Jose Manuel Barroso has said that it is time to call
:15:43. > :15:47.austerity to a halt. The British Chancellor is actually to have a
:15:47. > :15:53.second plan, because if you look at the figures which came out, with
:15:53. > :15:56.Britain avoiding a triple dip recession, just avoiding it, the key
:15:56. > :16:00.factor is the service industry. We know that the service industry is
:16:01. > :16:05.fickle. But the key area where we should be focusing is manufacturing,
:16:05. > :16:09.construction, and those are doing very badly. Gavin talks about
:16:09. > :16:15.America but America are not doing that wonderfully. But better than we
:16:15. > :16:25.are. The Germans, they are now actually having questions about the
:16:25. > :16:35.
:16:35. > :16:41.economics ability will stop exports There has been an attempt to reduce
:16:41. > :16:46.debt with a certain degrees of success, but is the biggest threat
:16:46. > :16:51.unemployment? The problem is that the European governments, including
:16:51. > :16:57.Britain, are concentrating on reducing the deficit, the Budget
:16:57. > :17:00.deficit, and how to apply the austerity measures, which are
:17:00. > :17:10.killing... Social justice is completely ruined. Unemployment is
:17:10. > :17:14.
:17:14. > :17:24.high. Britain is the worst, the second worst economic performer
:17:24. > :17:25.
:17:25. > :17:30.indeed she 20 club. It doesn't work! -- in the G20 club. We are
:17:30. > :17:35.spending a whole way -- spending our way out after an incredible
:17:35. > :17:40.mess has been shown not to work. More money does not always improve
:17:40. > :17:46.things. We spend more money on schools and hospitals and various
:17:46. > :17:53.other things, and it doesn't work. It does work in the United States.
:17:53. > :17:58.The American economy is growing. And your economy year, 0.3% growth!
:17:58. > :18:02.In Spain and Greece, if they bail out Greece in particular, if Greece
:18:02. > :18:08.does everything it has been dulled so he by 2020, it will still be in
:18:08. > :18:18.MS. Yes, it will, and a austerity has become an ideology. De Cardy to
:18:18. > :18:20.
:18:20. > :18:27.work in the margins. -- you Cardy to work in the margins. What about
:18:27. > :18:32.the social cost? The European Commission and the central bank are
:18:32. > :18:42.now recognising that austerity does not work in the long-run, and they
:18:42. > :18:42.
:18:42. > :18:47.did in the way to Portugal and Spain to take more time. We have to
:18:47. > :18:57.change course. You can't just keep on throwing money, but you have to
:18:57. > :18:57.
:18:57. > :19:06.have a Plan B. There is a plan B, it is already operates in. This
:19:06. > :19:16.whole business of Bill Allen -- bill of allowing exchange rates to
:19:16. > :19:19.shift, you are not allowed to do it. We don't agree on did it. Thank God
:19:20. > :19:24.you are fighting together and not with me!
:19:24. > :19:32.20 years ago this week, a black teenager standing at a. Was
:19:32. > :19:42.murdered in London by a gang of white youths. -- standing at a..
:19:42. > :19:47.
:19:47. > :19:55.How has Britain changed in the past 20 years? Racism never changes. It
:19:55. > :20:00.still manifests itself in all its facets. But Stephen Lawrence's
:20:00. > :20:05.tragic murder 20 years ago has made a significant difference even their
:20:05. > :20:10.many people say it is not as forward, not as revolutionary in
:20:10. > :20:15.terms of changes. But he has made a difference. There have been changes
:20:15. > :20:19.in the judicial system, in terms of the double jeopardy rule. We have
:20:19. > :20:24.had changes in the police force, especially in London, one of the
:20:24. > :20:28.major cities, where murders, particularly among ethnic minority
:20:29. > :20:35.communities, don't just go unchallenged or investigated --
:20:35. > :20:39.uninvestigated in the normal ways. Some things still need to be done.
:20:39. > :20:44.The police represent members of the ordinary community. The police are
:20:44. > :20:54.coming from communities where racism is still a fact of life. It
:20:54. > :20:54.
:20:54. > :20:58.does not mean they would change their attitudes overnight. Stephen
:20:58. > :21:07.Lawrence's death has led us to rethink how we treat minority
:21:07. > :21:11.groups. In London, 40% of the population is from different ethnic
:21:11. > :21:17.groups, and only a small minority of officers are from those groups.
:21:17. > :21:24.They would say they are aware of that and are changing the problem.
:21:24. > :21:31.It is too slow. It is changing, not just the colour, but also the face.
:21:31. > :21:41.I'm talking about Islam a phobia, and the Daily Mail. Muslims are now
:21:41. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :21:55.the target. Muslims are suspects of being terrorists. Look at Abu
:21:55. > :22:00.Qatada. He is portrayed in the media as a superpower threatening
:22:00. > :22:08.not only Britain but the whole of Europe, the whole of the white
:22:08. > :22:18.countries. Unbelievable! You are exaggerated! Is completely out of
:22:18. > :22:20.proportion. We should not fail to recognise that where we are now was
:22:20. > :22:30.quite different to where we were 20 years ago. Countries like France
:22:30. > :22:32.
:22:32. > :22:38.and Spain, there policing services so -- service is so autocratic. In
:22:38. > :22:42.France, you have so many problems in the Muslim and North African
:22:42. > :22:49.communities. In Britain, we have checks and balances. They are not
:22:50. > :22:56.perfect, but we are... The Daily Mail, this hated racist newspaper,
:22:56. > :23:01.was the newspaper that went out on a limb on Stephen Lawrence. I was
:23:01. > :23:07.at lunch with the editor and a couple of other people and Sir Paul
:23:07. > :23:13.Condon, the head of the Met Police at the time. He was saying there,
:23:13. > :23:19.there's a wall of silence, we can't find out anything about it. My
:23:20. > :23:25.editor, a man of very short temper, went berserk. He said, I have had
:23:25. > :23:31.boys out, looking for, we know who they are. We have not had a wall of
:23:31. > :23:41.silence. And she named people, even though you faced legal costs.
:23:41. > :23:46.
:23:46. > :23:52.the libel people and the lawyers were in connections. It shows how
:23:52. > :23:56.important this is for the British. The whole community sited behind
:23:56. > :24:00.Stephen Lawrence's family because it was a case of unfairness and
:24:00. > :24:04.injustice. The British hate injustice and unfairness, and I
:24:05. > :24:14.think it was a very special case. It is not unlike what you got in
:24:15. > :24:20.
:24:20. > :24:30.France, or Mark Duggan. There was very little sympathy in that case.
:24:30. > :24:40.There are laws going to be passing this country in relation to certain
:24:40. > :24:40.
:24:40. > :24:43.Muslim radicals. But this country is sending weapons to Syria!
:24:43. > :24:50.William Hague is every day saying we have to send weapons, we have to
:24:50. > :24:57.support the rebels. If you want to are the rebels and at the same
:24:57. > :25:00.time... Hypocrisy! To come back to the legacy of Stephen Lawrence's
:25:00. > :25:04.death, when I talk to people in black communities up and down
:25:04. > :25:09.Britain, there is a worry about knife crime within the community.
:25:09. > :25:19.But that leads to friction with the police. And that is where I think
:25:19. > :25:19.
:25:19. > :25:24.the hypocrisy exists and and people of black and Caribbean or origin.
:25:24. > :25:30.Stephen Lawrence was killed by white racist murders -- murderers,
:25:30. > :25:39.but the highest number of knife crimes committed by young black
:25:39. > :25:47.boys. Communities in many places are presenting a wall of silence.