:00:28. > :00:34.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. In this week's programme,
:00:34. > :00:37.the terrorist murder of an off duty soldier on a busy street and the
:00:37. > :00:42.prospect of elections in Iran, is the system so rigged that the
:00:42. > :00:48.outcome doesn't matter? My guests are Amir Taheri, the Iranian writer,
:00:48. > :00:54.Mustapha Karkouti, a writer, Henry Chu from the LA Times and bier bier
:00:54. > :00:59.of the Daily Mail. The horrific murt of an off duty
:00:59. > :01:04.British soldier in broad daylight on a busy street is the kind of attack
:01:04. > :01:07.the security services have been core -- worried about. Beyond security
:01:07. > :01:11.and policing matter, something more needs to be done to stop the
:01:11. > :01:16.radicalisation of young people into what is clearly a perversion of
:01:16. > :01:20.Islam. The question is, what? This question, Ian, of what do we doe
:01:20. > :01:23.about home-grown terror, and how we turn people away from
:01:23. > :01:30.radicalisation, what do you think in terms of public honourable friend
:01:30. > :01:34.sieve Governments can do? It is very difficult. An horrific incident an
:01:34. > :01:38.the savagery and the weirdness and strangeness of them hanging round
:01:38. > :01:43.gave it more attention, but in terms of the response, it is difficult. It
:01:43. > :01:46.is a small minority of people, who generally second generation
:01:46. > :01:51.immigrants, who are being alienated in some way from normal life, from
:01:51. > :01:55.normal society, getting trapped into small extremist circles and then
:01:55. > :01:58.only a few are going on the do horrific outrage, so it is difficult
:01:58. > :02:03.to know how you crackdown, there are things you can do by closing down
:02:03. > :02:06.some of the voices that are encouraging them, closing down the
:02:06. > :02:09.websites, closing down the people who are encouraging them, to incite
:02:09. > :02:12.them do these thing, there are thing yous can do there. But it is
:02:12. > :02:16.important the keep a sense of pre-Budget report shurntion it is
:02:16. > :02:21.worth remembering while this was a savage act and shocking, this isn't
:02:21. > :02:26.9/11, this isn't Madrid, this isn't 7/7 and to some way, some degree
:02:26. > :02:31.there is a sign of success there, I am alarmed also at the same time of
:02:31. > :02:35.seeing a huge rise in Islamophobia and a huge rise in attacks on
:02:35. > :02:42.mosques this this country. I think we demeeped it in proportion and aim
:02:42. > :02:46.-- keep it in proportion and aim it at the small number of people who
:02:46. > :02:49.encouraging this. Politicians are said the dividing line is not
:02:49. > :02:53.between Muslims anner people, it is between a very tiny minority of
:02:53. > :03:00.people who are prepared to this and everybody else and which the Muslim
:03:00. > :03:04.community has been condemning it throughout the week. I agree
:03:04. > :03:09.entirely with that. There is one point, we have to be careful when we
:03:09. > :03:13.talk about this incident. There are not necessarily second or third
:03:13. > :03:19.generation immigrants, immigrants is a loaded word to use, in an event
:03:19. > :03:24.like that. , are British, born, educated, they were Christian as
:03:24. > :03:29.well. And converted to Islam, so, you
:03:29. > :03:35.don't bring the immigration or the immigrant aspect into it. They were
:03:35. > :03:39.100% British, and this is what makes it very, I mean much more dangerous.
:03:39. > :03:43.You think that makes it more worrying. They sound like Londoner,
:03:43. > :03:49.like people from the south-east the way they talk. Yes, the same in
:03:50. > :03:55.Europe and France, as well, why do we always when incidents of this
:03:55. > :04:00.kind, we say of Nigerian origin or Moroccan origin, they were born
:04:01. > :04:04.here, educated here. Where do you see the root of the problem? I know
:04:04. > :04:08.you have have met one or two people who have extremist views and you
:04:08. > :04:15.have talked to them and persuaded them other wise, what do you think
:04:15. > :04:21.needs to be done? Well, a number of things, really. First of all,
:04:21. > :04:28.culturally these people should be subject subjected to the, to the
:04:28. > :04:33.cultural Islam. The history of Islam. They know nothing, if gruebg
:04:33. > :04:39.to even Choudhry, the lead their is representative of the so-called muj
:04:39. > :04:45.ruin, who appeared on Newsnight a couple of days ago. Even that has a
:04:45. > :04:51.very narrow track through which he delivers hiss poison I think, and
:04:51. > :04:59.because these people inspire crime, inspire killing in way, so one
:04:59. > :05:04.thing, you have to widen the churl debate. -- chur debate. The
:05:04. > :05:09.Government should consider, I know, I may say something you might find
:05:09. > :05:13.strange, this society is very tolerant, extremely tolerant, and
:05:13. > :05:20.that is what is nice about it. But, there must be a limit for tolerance
:05:20. > :05:26.in a way. So, inciting terror, inciting killing should be a crime.
:05:26. > :05:29.Does that mean some imams? course. They should be what,
:05:29. > :05:33.punished for this? Hate speech or thrown out of the country?
:05:33. > :05:43.Absolutely. Punish, take them to court, throw them out of the
:05:43. > :05:47.country, no doubt. Take the case of Abu Hamza. Society is too tolerant.
:05:47. > :05:52.Why allow him to speak in public, in the street, the road, not only in
:05:52. > :05:58.the mosque. . But that has happened. We have seen some getting deported
:05:58. > :06:03.or having been silenced. What is more worrisome is this crosses
:06:03. > :06:07.borders, where you have the sermons on YouTube, it is no longer confined
:06:07. > :06:13.to within the borders of Britain, and even the suspects here, I think
:06:13. > :06:18.one was just to be having seen inflammatory rhetoric on the come.
:06:18. > :06:24.It is no longer about physical presence of people in this society,
:06:24. > :06:29.that makes it tougher. Journalists tend to be uncomfortable, do you go
:06:29. > :06:34.down the route where you have to close down some of the websites and
:06:34. > :06:38.limit what people see? That tends to cause other problems. It will be the
:06:38. > :06:42.ambulance between free. Do of speech and expression and what you feel is
:06:42. > :06:47.going to harm society. I don't think there is an easy answer just to say
:06:47. > :06:51.if you shut them down it is going to staunch this problem. There will be
:06:51. > :06:56.other ways of spreading this message. It is not just about
:06:56. > :07:01.radical Islam. It is about young men joining gang, in terms of being
:07:01. > :07:06.sucked into a narrow view of society. A sense of belonging. And a
:07:06. > :07:10.sense of grow vans. What is your thoughts? Whatever happen, the
:07:10. > :07:15.tendency is to say the government should do something. As if you know
:07:15. > :07:19.the Government is God and so on. I think the main thing is that the
:07:19. > :07:27.Muslim community itself has a problem, slam has to detoxify
:07:27. > :07:30.itself, not only in Britain, but elsewhere. Right now there are
:07:30. > :07:37.revolts in places, in France, everywhere, in the Muslim countries,
:07:37. > :07:42.they are killing each other, in Syria, in Lebanon, Iraq, Tunisia, in
:07:42. > :07:46.Pakistan and so on and commune tyrism has led to bloodshed, in
:07:46. > :07:51.India, it is a very old story, it has always happened. It is not a
:07:51. > :07:56.problem for the British Government, you know, if I were a British
:07:57. > :08:00.Muslim, I would ask my leadership to create a conclave or something, a
:08:00. > :08:05.conference to find out what is wrong with us. If you go to the Muslim
:08:05. > :08:10.areas of London, they have turned them into independent imrat, people
:08:10. > :08:14.dress the same, people grow the same kind of beard, the same kind of
:08:14. > :08:18.hijab, the same kind of food, you know, accidentally Tay happen to be
:08:19. > :08:23.in Britain, but they are not really motionly and culturally in Britain
:08:23. > :08:29.and they don't feel British. They listen to what they say in in the
:08:29. > :08:33.mosque, they don't discuss British problems from an Islamic angle. They
:08:33. > :08:39.discuss Palestine, Syria, India, they discuss the loss of Spain,
:08:39. > :08:44.Andalucia and so on, but where is the Muslim vision of Britishness?
:08:45. > :08:54.You say there should be a Muslim reformation. Something as great as
:08:55. > :08:55.
:08:55. > :09:01.that. As long as it hasn't happened. As long as they, I am a Muslim
:09:01. > :09:06.myself, but like to be an example, I don't want to force anybody to
:09:06. > :09:12.become slam, at the moment there is a ten den receive, the overwhelming
:09:12. > :09:17.send I we are the winning team, we are the west is in decline, it is
:09:17. > :09:23.corrupt and so on, and it is our turn, you know to come and conquer
:09:23. > :09:29.the whole world. They have to abandon that ambition. There are
:09:29. > :09:33.moderate Muslims. I am one of them. The politically active tendency,
:09:33. > :09:38.backed by money from Muslim Government, from Iran, from some
:09:38. > :09:43.Arab country, from Pakistan, anybody, rich Muslim, I know many
:09:43. > :09:48.who contribute to so-called foundations and so on, to propagate
:09:48. > :09:51.these. This is bad for Islam. In tend more Muslims are killed than
:09:51. > :09:58.non-Muslims. Look at what is happening in Nigeria. That is like
:09:58. > :10:01.thinking the voice of Christian Christianity are the extreme
:10:01. > :10:05.fundamentalist voices you hear in America. They are behind some of the
:10:05. > :10:11.awful things there, Suis as the anti-gay stuff in Uganda. It is
:10:11. > :10:15.wrong to see the loudest voices as representing the mass. If you are
:10:15. > :10:20.talking about Christianity, right now we are talking about Islam. Of
:10:20. > :10:28.course... The point I am making just because they are loudest. . We say
:10:28. > :10:31.if we do this, the others do that, Hitler killed people. Let us not go
:10:31. > :10:36.on other trajectory, what we are talking about is Islam has a problem
:10:36. > :10:41.with itself, and the Muslims are suffering and the Muslims are dying,
:10:41. > :10:48.overwhelmingly, they have to tackle it. Why cover it? Why try to be
:10:48. > :10:53.polite about it? It is correct, we always say that Islam should reach
:10:53. > :10:58.the point where they can make the self criticism. It hasn't happened
:10:58. > :11:04.yet. But this is going to take a long time to happen. Let us start
:11:04. > :11:11.it. In order to impact on the Muslim minorities in the west, but in the
:11:11. > :11:14.meantime, the Government look at it, can play a role somehow, why do they
:11:15. > :11:22.still allow or encourage the independent religious school for
:11:22. > :11:27.example? This is wrong. There should be... You can't expect a liberal
:11:27. > :11:33.western democratic Government to act as an authoritarian state. It would
:11:33. > :11:37.be wrong. That is a victory for the tiny groups of young man who have
:11:38. > :11:42.become fanatic, I think it's a victory if Britain closes down its
:11:42. > :11:46.tolerance, if they are forced to close down well that work for many
:11:46. > :11:53.other people. The worst thing of all is for Britain to be changed by the
:11:53. > :12:01.actions of one or two delude deluded individuals. It is time it has to
:12:01. > :12:08.change. Not Britain. Let us find half way. Criminalise the actions.
:12:08. > :12:12.They are. Nobody is arrested. Choudhry should have been arrested
:12:12. > :12:16.two days ago. We will leave it there. Because let us move on to
:12:16. > :12:20.Iran. Because Iran's one of those countries from which from time to
:12:20. > :12:26.time feels it needs to hold elections but without regard for the
:12:26. > :12:32.Superintendents of democracy, the freedom of Iranians to choose a new
:12:32. > :12:38.President is so heavily curtain curtained -- curtailed, even a
:12:38. > :12:43.former President has been stopped from taking part. Does it matter
:12:43. > :12:47.which of the mullah-sanctioned men becomes President and whoever wins,
:12:47. > :12:55.how should the west handle the new regime. If you were in Iran would
:12:55. > :13:00.you go to the polls? No, I wouldn't go but many would. This election is
:13:00. > :13:04.like primaries in American party, it is not an open election, you are not
:13:04. > :13:09.saying the Democrat party makes a difference if Hillary Clinton won or
:13:09. > :13:13.Barack Obama won. The same thing is here, there are eight candidates,
:13:13. > :13:17.some of them totally obnoxious, I wouldn't even vote for them hold
:13:17. > :13:22.manager I nose, but some are acceptable, more or less, so, you
:13:22. > :13:26.know, there is still a choice, it is not a free choice, you know, the
:13:26. > :13:31.Iranian people would love to have other candidate bus they are not
:13:31. > :13:36.allowed to. This is a system. Aye e either you accept it or ject it. I
:13:36. > :13:41.think actually, what is happening is not too bad. We will have for the
:13:41. > :13:45.first time one faction controlling most office of the supreme guide and
:13:45. > :13:49.the presidency, and the various military and security organisations,
:13:49. > :13:53.therefore, that could end the faction fighting, that has s
:13:54. > :13:57.prevented Iran from taking big decision, including the relations
:13:57. > :14:03.with foreign country, because whenever somebody wanted to talk to
:14:03. > :14:08.America, the others are, you are abandon abandoning betraying the
:14:08. > :14:13.revolution, now there is nobody to shout, everyone is on the same side.
:14:13. > :14:17.Paradoxically it could help ease Iran's relations with the outside
:14:17. > :14:27.world. Signed Iran, of course, it would be bad for the Iranian people,
:14:27. > :14:33.who are suffering, because this is peculiarly totalitarian regime, it,
:14:33. > :14:38.the Islamic ambitions that said to conquer to world, first to conquer
:14:38. > :14:44.the Arabs to its brand of Islam. All mad idea, but you know, in the short
:14:44. > :14:49.run, it would enable Islamic Republic or the so-called Islamic
:14:49. > :14:52.Republic to northerly lice wit the outside. We know about the economic
:14:52. > :14:56.problems and flaings and the difficulty people have making a
:14:56. > :15:02.living. What ever happened to the Ross expect for real reform that
:15:02. > :15:06.were stamped on when they turned into street protests? Is that gone?
:15:06. > :15:11.There was never really prospect for reform, because the candidates who
:15:11. > :15:16.were defeated they never offered any programme for reform. The people had
:15:16. > :15:21.the perception, you know, they projected their own dreams and idea
:15:21. > :15:29.ideas to Mr Mousa. But never said what he wanted to reform as well.
:15:29. > :15:33.This is the problem, and the same with Rafsanjani. People said if he
:15:33. > :15:43.was President it would be paradise. He doesn't know his programme
:15:43. > :15:45.
:15:45. > :15:51.either. The programme is to get elected. I get your point. This
:15:51. > :15:57.views with great concern from where you live in the gulf. Absolutely,
:15:57. > :16:02.with this kind of process, election process itself, the selection, all
:16:02. > :16:12.the same colour, would make the authority more authoritarian I
:16:12. > :16:21.guess, rather than less. This is worrying is no doubt, in the region
:16:21. > :16:31.itself. It is a fact of life, Iran is the only strong power who can
:16:31. > :16:36.influence events in the region. The other big power, like Saudi Arabia,
:16:37. > :16:43.the Americans totally ignore the rest of the Gulf. We know the
:16:43. > :16:50.problems of Iraq, Syria and Egypt. They would like to deal with the
:16:50. > :16:56.strong power in the region, in this case there on. Take Iraq as an
:16:56. > :17:02.example -- in this case, Iran. everybody will be singing from the
:17:02. > :17:06.same song sheet, it means that perhaps there is room for a
:17:06. > :17:10.manoeuvre for a regime that does not have to be constantly on guard of
:17:10. > :17:15.being accused by the other side of betraying principles. That means
:17:15. > :17:20.that when it comes to Syria, for example, perhaps there will be a
:17:20. > :17:23.possibility of participation by Iran in a way that the US can
:17:23. > :17:27.countenance. Up until now Hillary Clinton has said that nobody from
:17:27. > :17:34.Iran should be at the table when it comes to Syria, but John Kerry, her
:17:34. > :17:39.successor, is repaired to be flexible on that. If you have a
:17:39. > :17:44.regime that is prepared to make baby steps, there are possibilities.
:17:44. > :17:49.Speaking with one voice, unlike the US Congress, you might say. Just to
:17:49. > :17:55.pick up on one point, think it is correct. You have do have a run and
:17:55. > :18:05.you have to have in Russia. These other countries to decide on Syria,
:18:05. > :18:06.
:18:06. > :18:10.it is not the Syrian president. you surely the of optimism? I do.
:18:10. > :18:20.Last time they had the election which went out of control with the
:18:20. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:28.performance movement and the for the people in charge. You have a
:18:28. > :18:36.cat fight among a small group of Conservatives to see who is going to
:18:36. > :18:39.emerge as the victim. There are still a lot of people in jail as a
:18:39. > :18:45.result of what happened in 2009, that should not be forgotten. They
:18:45. > :18:49.are closing down the internets base and free space. If we are to be
:18:49. > :18:53.optimistic, it is this idea that there will be people on one unified
:18:53. > :18:57.site, which makes it easier to negotiate and go forward. The
:18:57. > :19:05.trouble is, it will probably be a pretty awful government and it will
:19:05. > :19:15.be pretty miserable for the people they are governing. Whatever
:19:15. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:22.president wins, still Iran would talked about Syria. Now the
:19:22. > :19:28.involvement of Hezbollah on the side of the regime. Hezbollah is part of
:19:28. > :19:38.the uranium government, it is not an independent agent. -- Hezbollah as
:19:38. > :19:46.
:19:46. > :19:50.unchanging and one of those is developed nuclear power. I don't
:19:50. > :19:55.know if Iran wants to develop nuclear power but they want to be in
:19:55. > :19:59.a position to do that. Nobody is going to stop that. It is already
:19:59. > :20:04.happening. In fact Iran could do that right now. With the centrifuges
:20:04. > :20:09.they have, if they work them faster, they could have enough enriched
:20:09. > :20:16.uranium to make nuclear war. I don't think they have taken the decision
:20:16. > :20:22.to go that far yet and I don't think they will in the near future. The
:20:22. > :20:28.problem is that Iran as a nation state has no interest in Syria. Its
:20:28. > :20:33.interest is only as a revolution. If they can fight a way to show that
:20:33. > :20:38.the -- find a way to show that the revolution has not been defeated in
:20:38. > :20:43.Syria, Iran could not give a dam about Syria, it is neither here nor
:20:43. > :20:47.there. A BBC World Service poll found that the most positively
:20:47. > :20:52.viewed nation in the world is Germany, and bottom of the image
:20:52. > :20:58.poll came Iran, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel. Written came out
:20:58. > :21:02.near the top four is a bit may be obvious why Iran were near the
:21:02. > :21:10.bottom but why was Germany near the top? I think there are number of
:21:10. > :21:18.reasons for that. We are talking about Germany post-2nd World War. It
:21:18. > :21:28.has passed through quite a challenging attempt to take a full
:21:28. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:32.example, reunification. It was unimaginable for a long time. To go
:21:33. > :21:42.through this challenge, the cost of it politically, socially, it is a
:21:43. > :21:45.
:21:45. > :21:55.huge challenge. More importantly in the 50s, it led the move towards
:21:55. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:06.stability and peace and cooperation. With what became the EU Western Mark
:22:06. > :22:13.exactly is. -- with what became the EU? Exactly. It rehabilitated itself
:22:13. > :22:21.for a well after the war and it has become a strong economic power -- it
:22:21. > :22:25.rehabilitated itself very well. is a triumph of soft power. Exactly,
:22:25. > :22:31.it is not out in front when it comes to foreign policy. We don't see that
:22:31. > :22:36.at all. It is easier to have fuzzy feelings about a country like that.
:22:36. > :22:42.I think the question of the survey was very winery, does it have mostly
:22:42. > :22:48.a positive or mostly negative -- was very binary. A few months ago there
:22:48. > :22:51.was a poll where you saw that Germany was voted by nations as the
:22:51. > :22:56.most arrogant and released compassionate. It depends on how
:22:56. > :23:01.these questions are asked. depends how much money you need to
:23:01. > :23:06.borrow, I suspect. Absolutely, and when you are talking about
:23:06. > :23:09.economics, it is a different story altogether. I thought it was quite
:23:09. > :23:15.interesting, it is also a sign, for my generation growing up, Germany
:23:15. > :23:18.was still equated for the war -- with the war and it is interested in
:23:18. > :23:22.to see how it has got over the trauma for the bid has managed to
:23:23. > :23:26.become this benign presence that people can vote for in this way. To
:23:26. > :23:31.see through its soft power and policy of nonintervention and
:23:31. > :23:35.economic strength and solidity, and even through its footballers, as we
:23:35. > :23:39.see tonight in the Champions League. This is a country which in many ways
:23:40. > :23:44.has got it together and is pretty unified, in a very turbulent world,
:23:44. > :23:50.where there is a lot of change in globalisation and is a lot to admire
:23:50. > :23:55.about the German economic miracle anti-social miracle. -- and the
:23:55. > :24:01.social miracle. Some of its banks were the worst acts around and it
:24:01. > :24:09.still survive pretty well. -- the worst banks around. It is partly
:24:09. > :24:16.because benighted States does most of the dirty work. -- it is partly
:24:16. > :24:23.because the United States does most of the dirty work. In Iraq they
:24:23. > :24:33.didn't take part, in Libya they didn't take part, Britain and France
:24:33. > :24:36.
:24:36. > :24:43.were supposedly leaders. In Mali, Niger and France were heading
:24:43. > :24:46.things. At the same time, Germany is a very nice place to live. I speak
:24:46. > :24:54.German, I love German literature and I go there once or twice a year for
:24:54. > :25:00.holidays. It is a very agreeable place. But it is a big Switzerland.
:25:00. > :25:06.Nobody could be against the Swiss, even for inventing the cuckoo clock.
:25:06. > :25:10.We could hold that against them. I wonder if it can last. We have this
:25:10. > :25:17.great power in Europe, they will inevitably start rethinking their
:25:17. > :25:22.role as having handled the past very successfully. There are no signs
:25:22. > :25:30.that it won't last, at least in the medium-range future. It has a
:25:30. > :25:36.powerful base. The coherence of the society is quite strong. There is
:25:37. > :25:45.1.I want to make about Germany -- there is one point I want to make