:00:02. > :00:06.They are proving as deadly as ever. I will be back with the bulletin at
:00:06. > :00:16.the top of the hour, but now it is time for Dateline London with Gavin
:00:16. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:33.London. Prayers for Nelson Mandela. More cuts in British government
:00:33. > :00:39.spending. And Euroscepticism in the EU. Plus, which women should be on
:00:39. > :00:41.British currency? My guests today are Donald McIntyre of the
:00:41. > :00:44.Independent, Eunice Goes, the Portuguese writer and broadcaster,
:00:44. > :00:49.Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg Markets and Vincent Magombe of Africa Inform
:00:49. > :00:52.International. Barack Obama, currently touring Africa, said
:00:52. > :00:58.Nelson Mandela was his hero, and spoke for hundreds of millions of
:00:58. > :01:00.people around the world. As prayers were said for the man who, more than
:01:01. > :01:04.any other, brought South Africa out of apartheid, what is the Mandela
:01:04. > :01:14.legacy? Can South Africa point the way for other countries? And what is
:01:14. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:25.Barack Obama likely to achieve in Africa now? Just the way in which
:01:25. > :01:30.Nelson Mandela is viewed where you come from, Uganda. There are three
:01:30. > :01:38.ways people see him, the way people see him in Africa, then in South
:01:38. > :01:43.Africa, and the world. In South Africa, you can see, in spite of the
:01:43. > :01:47.big problems, economic and social conflict, many people in South
:01:47. > :01:54.Africa just value the fact that perhaps without his approaches, his
:01:54. > :01:59.individual touch, the way he managed the changes from apartheid to
:01:59. > :02:03.present-day South Africa, perhaps we wouldn't be talking like this today.
:02:03. > :02:12.South Africa would still be under apartheid, if not, there would have
:02:12. > :02:18.been a revolution. I think that individual touch, the human being
:02:18. > :02:24.who can reconcile with your enemy. In Africa, he should let you can be
:02:24. > :02:32.a leader for the people, not for yourself. In other words, be a
:02:32. > :02:38.leader, even just for a short period of time. Then go away. Going away is
:02:38. > :02:46.very important. Unfortunately, the legacy he wanted to set has not been
:02:46. > :02:53.captured by the rest of Africa. I come from Uganda, the Ugandan
:02:53. > :02:58.President has stayed in power for 26 years. He wants to go again in the
:02:58. > :03:03.next elections, preparing perhaps his son to take over, and it is
:03:03. > :03:10.causing social crisis in the country. In that sense, Robert
:03:10. > :03:17.Mugabe is more of a model than Mandela. Absolutely, though I would
:03:17. > :03:22.say that many African leaders, like the president of Angola, who has
:03:22. > :03:28.been in power for many decades, one of the wealthiest men in the world,
:03:28. > :03:33.he does not need inspiration from Robert Mugabe, he is his own man. I
:03:33. > :03:39.think it is an interesting point about Mandela. In South Africa,
:03:39. > :03:49.presidents cannot linger on for ever, but the current president, he
:03:49. > :03:50.
:03:50. > :03:54.is not exactly the example of selfless leaders. Their style of
:03:54. > :03:58.government has been fairly divisive and there is huge disenchantment
:03:58. > :04:04.with them. There is even disenchantment with the African
:04:04. > :04:14.National Congress. It was a very broad church, but is now splitting
:04:14. > :04:15.
:04:15. > :04:24.up. New party is emerging, so there is a sense that the ANC has betrayed
:04:24. > :04:27.the legacy of Mandela. South Africa did not undergo a
:04:27. > :04:37.violent revolution, but it has also remained a capitalist country, which
:04:37. > :04:40.
:04:40. > :04:46.is not always the pattern in other places. South Africa has huge
:04:46. > :04:51.problems, on employment up to 30%, depending on the way you look at it.
:04:51. > :04:56.You also have the challenge of natural resource being a huge part
:04:56. > :04:59.of the economy. We saw strikes last year that were very disruptive.
:04:59. > :05:04.South Africa has that resource curse of the challenges that go with that.
:05:04. > :05:12.How do you develop the economy in a way that is not just focused on
:05:12. > :05:18.natural resources, which is a problem across Africa. How do use
:05:18. > :05:25.yet? I cannot match Vincent's excellent
:05:25. > :05:32.summary of the legacy in Africa. One of the things about Mandela is just
:05:32. > :05:41.a reminder of the importance of the single individual in political
:05:41. > :05:46.change. There is no question that the struggle against apartheid was
:05:46. > :05:53.wider than just him, but it is also hard to think of someone else who
:05:53. > :05:58.could have brought the independence and majority rule in South Africa so
:05:58. > :06:04.peacefully. It is worth remembering. I can think of all sorts of parts of
:06:04. > :06:10.the world, where people say, if only there was a Mandela here. It is true
:06:10. > :06:19.in the Middle East and other places. Of course, he is an example of a
:06:19. > :06:28.kind of politician, not just in Africa, that we seldom see.
:06:28. > :06:34.Before Northern Ireland cracked it and signed the deal, they took Irish
:06:34. > :06:38.politicians from all sides to South Africa. They took them there to
:06:38. > :06:45.learn lessons about how you reconcile. What is important in the
:06:45. > :06:50.issue of economic 's, some South Africans say that Mandela didn't
:06:50. > :06:57.resolve the issues, it is true that that is now the biggest challenge. I
:06:57. > :07:02.think that any presidents, if they want to build on the legacy of
:07:02. > :07:06.Mandela, they need to make sure they deal with this impending catastrophe
:07:06. > :07:15.that will hit the country if unresolved economic problems are
:07:15. > :07:21.allowed to go on. Is it fair to say that the South African Constitution
:07:21. > :07:31.is a great model, but the way it has been implemented, including the
:07:31. > :07:31.
:07:31. > :07:39.economic problems, that all still exists. When EC countries like
:07:39. > :07:43.Brazil, with people exploding, and we see in Europe, social conflict
:07:43. > :07:50.coming because of unresolved economic oblongs, it rings to mind
:07:50. > :07:58.the fact that we need revolutions. I am talking about economic
:07:58. > :08:03.revolutions, but not the kind that Robert Mugabe had. He is a hero for
:08:03. > :08:06.those people, he got them independence in Zimbabwe. And he is
:08:06. > :08:16.right to try and get land back, but the way he did it is obviously
:08:16. > :08:19.
:08:19. > :08:25.wrong. But Africans need to find the right approach. The way that makes
:08:25. > :08:32.those people who still have economic power, that features their minds, to
:08:32. > :08:39.share that power. We are seeing the wrong approach from Jacob Zuma.
:08:39. > :08:44.a couple of minutes on resident or Obama. The first black American
:08:44. > :08:53.president, onto in Africa and South Africa, where he talked of Mandela
:08:53. > :09:01.as a great deal. Has he done anything in Africa? Not really. He
:09:01. > :09:06.is trying to bring American business to Africa. He is trying to give a
:09:06. > :09:11.message to countries that are trying to introduce multi-party politics.
:09:11. > :09:16.He is trying to send a message that this is the way to go in Africa. But
:09:16. > :09:22.I don't think he had a very ambitious agenda for this visit to
:09:23. > :09:25.Africa. It was mostly symbolic. The British Government cut a few
:09:25. > :09:28.more chunks off itself this week as Government departments were forced
:09:29. > :09:31.into more austerity. Then we were told there is to be 100 billion
:09:32. > :09:35.spent on infrastructure projects. Oh, wait a minute, we have been told
:09:35. > :09:38.about that money already. It all comes as the EU has decided to make
:09:38. > :09:45.more money available to create jobs. Is this Keynesianism for slow
:09:45. > :09:50.learners? What you make of what we have heard, Donald? More cuts to
:09:50. > :09:57.government departments and this infrastructure spending, which is
:09:57. > :10:07.not new money. I do not think you could accuse
:10:07. > :10:09.
:10:09. > :10:19.George Osborne and David Cameron of Keynesianism. It is a very savage
:10:19. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:26.programme of cuts, and I cannot remember a political statement so
:10:26. > :10:33.partisan, which was done in a way to show that you do not cut benefits
:10:33. > :10:36.for the elderly, because that would affect Tory boaters. You do cut
:10:36. > :10:39.welfare, because you know that Labour will feel uncomfortable in
:10:39. > :10:46.attacking you for it, because their labour would be seen as the welfare
:10:46. > :10:52.party. It is a very political programme of cuts. The
:10:52. > :11:00.infrastructure projects have either been announced, in some cases
:11:00. > :11:04.several times before, or if there is quite a lot of scepticism about
:11:04. > :11:09.whether and how fast or is that all people actually be implemented.
:11:09. > :11:16.You cannot build a bridge over the Mersey tomorrow, so it does take
:11:16. > :11:19.some time. I think in many ways the programme
:11:19. > :11:26.is excellent. I think if these things all happened in the way the
:11:26. > :11:36.government says they will, that would be great. But just to take one
:11:36. > :11:37.
:11:37. > :11:41.example, the high-speed train, which is a huge programme, and as the
:11:41. > :11:45.finance minister says, would match some of the other things going on on
:11:45. > :11:54.the railways in judo and would bring a huge number of jobs, but at the
:11:54. > :11:59.same time, it is Italy controversial among Labour and Tory MPs. And it is
:11:59. > :12:05.not due to start until 2017. That is the problem with a lot of the
:12:05. > :12:11.initiatives. They're not you, it is a change of communication strategy,
:12:11. > :12:18.because actually capital investment is going to fall next year, so they
:12:18. > :12:22.have just repackaged these measures. But a lot of them won't start until
:12:22. > :12:32.2015, so the feeling is there needs to be investment in infrastructure
:12:32. > :12:33.
:12:33. > :12:38.right now. Broadly speaking, the cuts are relatively small, when you
:12:38. > :12:43.think about it. The infrastructure investment is also relatively small
:12:43. > :12:46.in terms of having an impact on the economy and getting economic growth
:12:46. > :12:55.of the ground again. I do not think it will have the impact there
:12:55. > :13:05.hoping. A lot of bets is towards the next election, when we can expect
:13:05. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:11.tax rises to fund the budget gap. That leaves Labour with a dilemma.
:13:11. > :13:19.What do they say about welfare? They are not saying they can reverse any
:13:19. > :13:21.of this. And it will be even worse after the election, because the
:13:21. > :13:27.likelihood of interest rates rising and the servicing of government debt
:13:27. > :13:29.will go up muscle even the �11 billion they have cut of government
:13:29. > :13:37.departments, that could be eaten up by interest costs on servicing
:13:37. > :13:43.government debt. Twitter using the bigger picture in Europe,
:13:43. > :13:51.particularly in southern Europeans states, where there is growing
:13:51. > :13:55.Euroscepticism. For example, in Spain. How about Portugal?
:13:55. > :14:02.Portugal, it is the same depressing picture. There is huge unemployment,
:14:02. > :14:06.negative growth, despair. Young people are leaving in droves to go
:14:06. > :14:12.to African countries to find jobs. There is the feeling that the
:14:12. > :14:16.country is condemned. Even if the debt will be reduced in five years,
:14:16. > :14:22.which it wants, there are no hopes for economic growth for the next ten
:14:22. > :14:27.years. I talk to friends of mine, we have children of ten, and they are
:14:27. > :14:31.very concerned. What will be the life for their children? When they
:14:31. > :14:39.finish university, there will be no jobs. Even at loggerheads, because
:14:39. > :14:43.this austerity never worked in his study. In 100 years of steady
:14:43. > :14:49.programmes, it never delivered the deficit-reduction and never
:14:49. > :14:53.delivered economic growth. It is about ideology, it is about
:14:53. > :15:01.destroying the welfare state. There was an interesting document from
:15:01. > :15:05.Morgan Stanley circulating social media this weekend. The plan is to
:15:05. > :15:12.reduce and eliminate and destroy the welfare state, which is supposed to
:15:12. > :15:14.be the evil of European economists, which it is not, by the way. The
:15:14. > :15:20.programme is about the destruction of the welfare state, but a steady
:15:20. > :15:28.two is not delivering what it misses on the tin. The populations of
:15:28. > :15:34.southern Europe are increasingly happy. There are increasing
:15:34. > :15:38.demonstrations, they happen on a daily basis. There is rebellion
:15:38. > :15:47.happening in very creative ways, and people are starting to talk about
:15:47. > :15:51.leaving Europe, which was a taboo subject for over 20 years. I do not
:15:51. > :16:01.believe it will happen, but the fact that people are talking about it,
:16:01. > :16:02.
:16:02. > :16:06.means that something must change. think the catastrophe with politics
:16:06. > :16:11.right across the world is when politicians forget they are dealing
:16:11. > :16:16.with real people. Like Margaret Thatcher, they just cut jobs, miners
:16:16. > :16:22.can go, whatever. You forget that those people are real people. And in
:16:23. > :16:26.Europe they are voters. So you can see them perhaps is ready to kick
:16:26. > :16:31.out some of these governments. They are making it difficult for some of
:16:31. > :16:36.the European countries to put things through. They need to learn some
:16:36. > :16:40.lessons here. Cameron and his party are in the best place. If you take
:16:40. > :16:46.Margaret Thatcher, whilst she went ahead with the poll tax, cutting
:16:46. > :16:54.jobs from the miners, that was her demise. I may not be somebody who
:16:54. > :16:59.can see the future, but I can see a social crisis exploding in Europe,
:16:59. > :17:05.including Britain. That is one of the reasons why the EU is putting
:17:05. > :17:08.money in. Why are they coming so late? They should have thought from
:17:08. > :17:10.the very beginning when they have been trying to deal with the
:17:10. > :17:15.financial situation that there is a social crisis of young people with
:17:15. > :17:25.no jobs. Angela Merkel is running for real action in September in
:17:25. > :17:33.Germany, 7% up the world 's population are in Europe, 50% of the
:17:33. > :17:37.welfare spending. She argues that that is unsustainable. Yes, and it
:17:38. > :17:42.has been part of Cameron 's vocabulary. He has quoted Angela
:17:42. > :17:48.Merkel several times and pictures, and it is a big theme of his. Nobody
:17:48. > :17:53.thinks that the welfare state should not be developed and adapted to
:17:53. > :17:57.changing times. I guess that politicians across the spectrum in
:17:57. > :18:01.Britain recognise that there may be a problem about labour markets that
:18:01. > :18:04.are too inflexible, and all the rest of it. But going back to what
:18:04. > :18:10.Vincent was saying, one of the things that British Government did
:18:10. > :18:14.this week was to say that if you lose your job, you can't get a
:18:14. > :18:18.benefit for a week. You can't sign on or get jobseeker's allowance for
:18:18. > :18:24.a week. Oddly, this will have a very perverse effect, potentially. It
:18:24. > :18:27.will mean that people are frightened of getting off benefits in order to
:18:27. > :18:32.get a temporary job or a job that does not look very permanent,
:18:32. > :18:37.because they know that as soon as they get the job they will be off
:18:37. > :18:41.benefits, so they are being punished for trying to get a job. I agree
:18:41. > :18:46.with Vincent, I think it is not thinking about the people that will
:18:46. > :18:50.be affected. The other part of this is the
:18:50. > :18:56.question of social unrest. We have seen what is happening in Turkey,
:18:56. > :19:01.Brazil and the Arab world. Greece has been a very unhappy place. Do
:19:01. > :19:07.you see the prospect of more social unrest? There are many young people
:19:07. > :19:12.who just don't have jobs and don't have hope, perhaps? In Spain, the
:19:12. > :19:17.figure is 50% of young people unemployed. Spain and southern
:19:17. > :19:25.Europe has its own youth bulge, so to speak, of educated, unemployed
:19:25. > :19:30.youth. I think we see a risk. I think social media can make these
:19:30. > :19:34.things snowball faster than previously, as we have seen in
:19:34. > :19:38.Turkey and Brazil. I think governments need to be very careful.
:19:38. > :19:43.It really depends on how the next two years go with the austerity
:19:43. > :19:48.measures. Finance ministers have given governments and extra two
:19:48. > :19:54.years to get their budget deficits down. The European Central Bank
:19:54. > :19:59.chief has talked about making sure that the austerity programmes do not
:19:59. > :20:05.kill growth. I think there is a growing idea that this cannot
:20:05. > :20:10.continue, austerity by itself is not a solution. Moving on, the Queen is
:20:10. > :20:15.the face of the British currency, but she is the only woman on our
:20:15. > :20:19.banknotes, or she will be when Elizabeth Fry is replaced on �5
:20:19. > :20:22.notes by Winston Churchill. Labour Leader Ed Miliband spoke of a
:20:22. > :20:28.wider crisis in the underrepresentation of women in
:20:28. > :20:31.British culture. Does he have a point? Yes. A very interesting study
:20:31. > :20:39.has been done showing that representation in politics, the
:20:39. > :20:44.media, business etc in Britain is around 22%. 22% of women in
:20:44. > :20:48.Parliament, in the boards, the media, so one. There is a problem.
:20:48. > :20:52.He speaks from a position where the Labour Party has done more for women
:20:52. > :20:56.in politics. There have been all women shortlists and other measures
:20:56. > :21:00.taken to increase the number of Labour MPs in their benches. But I
:21:00. > :21:06.would say that perhaps if he would appoint a feud women for his
:21:06. > :21:12.Cabinet, because on his long list their only two women advising Ed
:21:12. > :21:19.Miliband. Perhaps a bit more gender issues would be very interesting.
:21:19. > :21:24.People actually look at how they behave. Two women in his kitchen
:21:24. > :21:29.cabinet. I think the discussion about the banknotes is a bit silly.
:21:29. > :21:36.Does anybody ever really look at what is there? I bet most people
:21:36. > :21:41.don't have a clue who Elizabeth Fry was. Bee I had to look her up. She
:21:41. > :21:45.was a campaigner for prison reform. More importantly, look at the
:21:45. > :21:49.monetary policy committee of the Bank of England. It is made up
:21:49. > :21:53.entirely of white, middle-aged men. I find it extraordinary that they
:21:53. > :21:59.could not find a qualified female economist in the UK willing to spend
:21:59. > :22:09.three days a week for �130,000 to do that job. There are certainly some
:22:09. > :22:10.
:22:10. > :22:17.available! That is not the only example. You look at the number of
:22:17. > :22:23.female CEOs in the FTSE 100. Lords, the judiciary. There has been
:22:23. > :22:27.a push to get more women on company boards, but that is stuck at around
:22:27. > :22:32.17%. I think we should stop focusing on the symbolism of banknotes and
:22:32. > :22:35.look at, concretely, who is running real businesses.
:22:35. > :22:42.On the banknote point, when Mervyn King announced that Jane Austen was
:22:42. > :22:50.waiting in the wings to go on the �10 note, one female MP made that
:22:50. > :22:54.very point. On the monetary policy committee there are no women. Just
:22:54. > :23:00.on the triviality of the banknote issue, I don't think anybody really
:23:00. > :23:08.knows, and indeed, Kenyans, himself, Rob Lee said that Charles Dickens
:23:08. > :23:11.was on the �10 note. Actually, it is Charles Darwin. But these points are
:23:11. > :23:15.various serious about women. Some newspapers for which I have worked
:23:16. > :23:21.have not been at the forefront of having women in the top jobs. It is
:23:21. > :23:29.also true, the point that Younis makes about the kitchen cabinet. If
:23:29. > :23:32.you have a lot of Etonians, they are unlikely to be female. In the
:23:32. > :23:42.interest of full disclosure, the director-general of the BBC has
:23:42. > :23:44.
:23:44. > :23:49.never been a woman. I really don't bother about this. But on the real
:23:49. > :23:53.facts, they are kind of incontrovertible? When I look at
:23:53. > :23:58.Europeans and Western people crying about women not being in high places
:23:58. > :24:04.and so on, I don't know whether you want us Africans to criteria is or
:24:04. > :24:11.cry blood. You just have to compare Africa. I look around and I see very
:24:11. > :24:17.many women employed. We are only starting to have African women
:24:17. > :24:20.presidents. Malawi. Even when you have one, you still find that they
:24:20. > :24:24.are within a culture where the men don't allow them to do what they
:24:24. > :24:30.need to do. We have very grave problems in terms of our women, in
:24:30. > :24:35.trying to achieve in modern life. In traditional society they sort of
:24:35. > :24:41.have places, they are very powerful mothers and so one, but when I look
:24:41. > :24:47.at Britain, I have been here for about 20 years, I think there are
:24:48. > :24:51.real problems, it is really true. you think the symbolism is
:24:51. > :24:56.important? Yes, it is normal that women are an banknotes, that they
:24:56. > :25:00.are managing bank, the chair of the Bank of England or the
:25:00. > :25:09.director-general of the BBC. Symbolism is extremely important.
:25:09. > :25:14.is not very often that we say this is the first woman to... If the
:25:14. > :25:18.stories did not exist there would be more equality. But the difference
:25:18. > :25:25.between British culture and Africa is that now, through the struggles
:25:25. > :25:30.of people like Elizabeth Fry a long time ago up to now, some systems are
:25:30. > :25:35.in place and infrastructures are place to get women educated, to get
:25:35. > :25:40.them to take up positions and so on. In places like Africa, where I come
:25:40. > :25:46.from, those things are not there. What could be done about getting
:25:46. > :25:51.more women on boards? There has been a lot of debate about
:25:51. > :25:54.whether or not we need quotas. That proposal was shot down by the EU. I
:25:54. > :26:00.don't think voters will work. I think what needs to happen is there
:26:00. > :26:05.needs to be more ways of promoting women within management structures
:26:05. > :26:11.and companies so that they have the kind of experience that could then
:26:11. > :26:15.qualify them to serve on a board. That is it, women with the right
:26:15. > :26:22.experience to do the job. Yes, with the experience that would qualify
:26:22. > :26:25.them. Then they are in the pool of candidates, and I think that has
:26:25. > :26:30.been disingenuous. There are enough candidates but we need a bigger