:00:43. > :00:48.at the top of the hour. Now it is London. .
:00:48. > :00:55.Well, Britain like most western demock drassies was put in an
:00:55. > :00:59.awkward position by the ousting of Egypt's President Morsi. In this
:00:59. > :01:03.case, was the elected Egyptian Government so divisive and such a
:01:03. > :01:10.disaster for most Egyptians that we should be glad Morsi has gone and
:01:10. > :01:16.that the army did it? You came back last night? Yes.How do you see
:01:16. > :01:26.things now? Actually I can understand the western point of
:01:26. > :01:34.view, but I would like to remind people of the great book, The Open
:01:34. > :01:39.Society and Its Enemies. What is going on is a corrective process to
:01:39. > :01:44.stop the prediction which was aired many years ago about the Islamists
:01:44. > :01:48.who when they reached power, once it is in one vote, one time. We don't
:01:49. > :01:54.want to be in one time, we need it to be all the time. The Army has
:01:55. > :02:00.just set the scene for the democratic process to take place.
:02:00. > :02:03.The new in the president is not an army general, he is the head of the
:02:03. > :02:10.constitutional court. They are looking for a Prime Minister to be
:02:10. > :02:20.appointed and that Prime Minister could be ElBaradei. Mohamed
:02:20. > :02:20.
:02:20. > :02:25.ElBaradei? Yes. He said from now on we don't need a God president, we
:02:25. > :02:34.need a manager president to take care of the country. I talked to
:02:34. > :02:42.someone from the Muslim Brotherhood who said need to get over that they
:02:42. > :02:46.lost? People don't understand the legitimacy of the election. There
:02:46. > :02:51.comes the legitimacy of good governments and performance and they
:02:51. > :02:56.failed. They weakened the police and they kept the police weakened in
:02:56. > :03:05.order to put a proposal that popular militias which is brotherhood
:03:05. > :03:10.militias take over the security of the country. They attacked the
:03:10. > :03:16.preeminent Islamic institution in the world because they wanted to get
:03:16. > :03:24.people who are less educated to control the country in their own
:03:24. > :03:29.ways and they discriminated. You could it with your own eyes. This
:03:29. > :03:36.was an attempt to discriminate against the people.
:03:36. > :03:40.Just one other point on this because you on this programme defended the
:03:40. > :03:48.Muslim Brotherhood before in terms of democracy and their right to run.
:03:48. > :03:54.You have changed your mind? I had to change my mind because I tried to
:03:54. > :04:00.maintain my integrity as an Egyptian intellectual. When people took to
:04:00. > :04:05.the streets on 30th June, there was a discrepancy about the numbers, but
:04:05. > :04:11.the lower number which was aired was 20 million plus. President Morsi
:04:11. > :04:17.spoke to Mr Obama on the phone and told him that it was 160,000. I
:04:17. > :04:22.understand that Google Earth and other detection means have awarded
:04:22. > :04:29.the Egyptian administration the Guinness Book Of Records number! And
:04:29. > :04:34.I mean, I tried to defend the Muslim Brotherhood, but I am I cannot help
:04:34. > :04:38.people defend them. This list was taken by the people who raided their
:04:38. > :04:42.head quarters and it is all over the internet in Egypt and elsewhere and
:04:42. > :04:52.someone read it on Egyptian television. It has the names in
:04:52. > :04:58.
:04:58. > :05:06.Arabic and English and signatures and the sums received from Quata
:05:06. > :05:14.qa ta is paying members of the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes sums from
:05:14. > :05:24.$250,000 to $850,000. This is extraordinary, you well
:05:24. > :05:32.
:05:32. > :05:38.know, Ann, Egypt is pivotal to the elected and they have changed their
:05:38. > :05:42.minds in a short time and they throw them out. This is not good for
:05:42. > :05:47.democracy, but I was thinking about that. Hitler was elected
:05:47. > :05:53.democratically, he cheated his way into win as indeed did the
:05:53. > :06:03.brotherhood did, bribe bribing with oil and flour and this sort of
:06:03. > :06:09.thing. But first of all, when there was, I think in 1944 the army ps
:06:09. > :06:14.attempted attempted truce? They did it too late and they didn't succeed.
:06:14. > :06:18.Now, can we say well, he was democratically elected and
:06:18. > :06:22.therefore, they shouldn't even try... But he wasn't a democrat?But
:06:22. > :06:29.he wasn't and neither is the brotherhood because I remember
:06:29. > :06:33.interviewing in Cairo a while back the previous supreme guide and we
:06:33. > :06:40.talked about it and he was smooth and sophisticated. The people at the
:06:40. > :06:46.top are not the sort of peasant thickos who are there, foot soldiers
:06:46. > :06:50.so to speak and I was almost late for the athe pointment because --
:06:50. > :06:57.the appointment because of the traffic and he said "our slogan is
:06:57. > :07:05.Islam is the answer." I said" what is Islam's answer to the traffic
:07:05. > :07:15.jams? "His answer was" when we have a Sharia ruled State these things
:07:15. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:20.will sort themselves out because we will be doing Allah's will. "
:07:20. > :07:26.interesting to hear Abdulla who has been in Egypt. What have we been
:07:26. > :07:33.doing in the western world the last week or so? We have been having
:07:33. > :07:39.debates about semantics. Is it a coup or is it not a coup? So you had
:07:39. > :07:44.endless conversations about well, it is true the army deposed the
:07:44. > :07:49.president who was elected, but the people asked the army to do it.
:07:49. > :07:53.Therefore, it is not a coup. It shows how, you know, it shows
:07:54. > :07:58.perhaps the 50 shades of democracy and the genesis of democracy is a
:07:58. > :08:05.murky one. But it shows there is a great appetite for democracy in
:08:05. > :08:13.Egypt, does it not? Of course. Of course. Of course then we turn into
:08:13. > :08:19.Turkey. Before what happened in Tahrir Square because that was the
:08:19. > :08:29.model. Here is a moderate Islamist if there is such a thing who managed
:08:29. > :08:29.
:08:29. > :08:34.to tame the army. No coups for a generation, but the people take
:08:34. > :08:38.charge. Legitimacy is in the hands of the people in the UK it is in the
:08:38. > :08:44.hands of the Parliament. So all this, I mean, we are lost for words
:08:44. > :08:49.base clay. The way we can avoid using the C word. Let's use a
:08:49. > :08:57.different word. The money would get stopped by America because legally
:08:57. > :09:02.they cannot give money... It is not just semantics? The US, we give $1.
:09:02. > :09:06.5 billion in aid, almost all to the army and it is determined that a
:09:06. > :09:09.military, illegal deposed a Government, we are supposed to stop
:09:09. > :09:17.that aid. Nobody in the administration or Congress has been
:09:17. > :09:24.willing to go that he extra step to say this was a I will leu legitimate
:09:24. > :09:30.swipe -- an ill legitimate swipe of power. You can mourn how it happened
:09:30. > :09:37.and I think we can be agreeing on that, what you said earlier about
:09:37. > :09:40.this administration being divisive and incompetent. Plenty of
:09:40. > :09:50.democratically governments are all of those, but they don't get booted
:09:50. > :09:54.
:09:54. > :10:03.out by the military. The ballot box is one pillar of democracy. This
:10:03. > :10:06.started with... In terms of the violence, that must be the worry?
:10:06. > :10:14.People have been shot and who has been doing the shooting? People have
:10:14. > :10:18.been shot and the first shots came from the Islamic brotherhood, the
:10:18. > :10:22.Muslim Brotherhood. The firs three people to be killed were army
:10:22. > :10:30.soldiers and it was a threat and the incitement came from them. They
:10:30. > :10:40.said" if you throw water on Morsi, we will throw blood on you. "Three
:10:40. > :10:40.
:10:40. > :10:44.or four TV stations which were of his lambic tendencies so to --
:10:44. > :10:48.Islamic tendencies so to speak. The military spent a number of days
:10:48. > :10:52.trying to convince Morsi that matters could go out of hand and
:10:52. > :10:57.they got people to speak to him. He did not want to listen and people
:10:57. > :11:02.were agitated in the street, peaceful as it was all the time
:11:02. > :11:07.until the 4th July. Morsi spoke on 2nd July and then he spoke on 3rd
:11:07. > :11:15.July and you could never feel a president out-of-touch with his feel
:11:15. > :11:20.to that extent. Never. He was talking as if his legitimacy was God
:11:20. > :11:24.given legitimacy and anyone who goes against him will go against Allah. I
:11:25. > :11:28.spoke with a taxi driver who had a long beard and he spoke to me about
:11:28. > :11:32.supporting the Islamic project and solution. I told him my friend,
:11:32. > :11:36.there is no Islamic project and solution. There is a successful
:11:36. > :11:42.solution and there is a failing solution and any successful solution
:11:42. > :11:46.could be Islamic, Christian, Jewish, whatever because it is responding to
:11:46. > :11:52.the requirements and the needs of people. If you bring a failing
:11:52. > :11:55.solution and try to make it Islamic you will insult Islam without
:11:56. > :12:05.knowing you are insulting Islam. Was he persuaded by your logic?
:12:06. > :12:08.
:12:09. > :12:14.Well, he could not respond. He said" sir, that's it. "Because people are
:12:14. > :12:17.in indoctrinated into means like submission and obedience.
:12:17. > :12:22.We cannot overestimate the significance of this moment.
:12:22. > :12:27.Because, of course, Egypt's particular place in the Arab world,
:12:27. > :12:33.but you know, the West, I think, has got too hooked on the ballot box as
:12:33. > :12:40.being the definition of democracy. As Abdulla is pointing out, it is
:12:40. > :12:46.not the only thing. In fact, what produces proper democracy are
:12:46. > :12:50.strong, stable, incorrupt institutions. Almost the act of
:12:50. > :12:55.going and voting is the icing on the cake. You have to create the cake
:12:55. > :13:02.first. Now, we have seen enough so-called democracy in parts of the
:13:02. > :13:09.world where the ruler always goes 98. 8.6% endorsemed and we are
:13:09. > :13:14.democrat cli elected. -- democratically elected, of course,
:13:14. > :13:21.they are not and we think isn't it wonderful to see queues of people
:13:21. > :13:29.going in to vote. They voted the anti-Democratic Party.
:13:29. > :13:34.Are you optimistic? This could go wrong, couldn't it? Well, it could.
:13:34. > :13:44.I mean I guess they need to start with constitution, you know. They
:13:44. > :13:44.
:13:44. > :13:49.need to write one that is a national reconciliation. They need to,
:13:49. > :13:53.religious extremists and secularists must live together. There is 80
:13:54. > :13:58.million people. And also the army has to play, I mean the army could
:13:58. > :14:02.play a good role, you know, but they have also to accept that you know
:14:02. > :14:12.civil society needs to play its role, are I mean to be as strong as
:14:12. > :14:19.well. I mean... Civil society?Yes. I know
:14:19. > :14:29.you are a sentimental revolutionary The thing is there is no revolution
:14:29. > :14:29.
:14:30. > :14:36.has ever had immediate good effects. Your revolution... The French
:14:36. > :14:40.Revolution? They ended up with a long civil war. So there is always a
:14:40. > :14:44.period where things go wrong and this is going to be no exception.
:14:44. > :14:51.Let's end this with your thoughts about optimism or otherwise. How do
:14:51. > :15:00.you see it? Well, I have a cautious optimism because there was a call in
:15:00. > :15:04.the meeting in which General Al-Sisi and the Pope and the people and
:15:04. > :15:10.everyone spoke. They said we are not excludeing anyone. We invited them
:15:10. > :15:14.to take part and the aim is to work very hard and quickly for a
:15:14. > :15:20.constitution and election within six months. I hope this will succeed.
:15:20. > :15:27.The constitution of the Islamists was discussed for nine months and
:15:27. > :15:33.then ratified in one night. Right. Executing everyone else. Now, we
:15:33. > :15:38.need an incruise cliff society -- incruisive society in which --
:15:38. > :15:42.inclusive society in which everyone feels a full citizen. OK, let's move
:15:42. > :15:46.on because the leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband, became leader
:15:46. > :15:55.over his brother David thanks to support from the trade union
:15:55. > :16:00.movement. It is awkward for Ed Miliband that a scandal has blown
:16:00. > :16:06.up. How serious is this for Ed Miliband and Labour? It is tricky,
:16:06. > :16:11.isn't it? Can't live with them, can't live without them? Most of the
:16:11. > :16:15.recent Labour leaders we have seen had run-ins with the unions. Because
:16:15. > :16:20.of the history of unions with Labour, it is difficult. I think Ed
:16:20. > :16:24.Miliband is caught between a rock and a hard. Place. He has low
:16:24. > :16:32.personal approval ratings and this won't help him. People may not like
:16:32. > :16:39.the Tories, but they can't see Ed Miliband as Prime Minister. And it
:16:39. > :16:45.does go up and down, but it is true that Ed Miliband has polled worse
:16:45. > :16:49.than his party, but Cameron polled better than his party. On the
:16:49. > :16:53.personality thing? It has become more important in Britain when you
:16:53. > :16:58.have televised debates with elections and the word is supposedly
:16:58. > :17:02.that Ed Miliband wants to confront the unions more directly and
:17:02. > :17:10.diminish their influence, but because money is the mother's milk
:17:10. > :17:15.of politics, we will see how far that goes. You are talking about
:17:15. > :17:19.diminished influence, and that is happening with the trade unions. But
:17:19. > :17:25.to sever the link between Labour and the trade unions, they have funded
:17:25. > :17:28.the Labour Party since 1900. There is a lot of hypocrisy in this, the
:17:28. > :17:34.Conservatives saying, oh, look, Ed Miliband is the plaything of the
:17:34. > :17:37.trade unions, but it is better to be the plaything of the trade unions
:17:37. > :17:42.than to be like the Conservative Party, the plaything of the city and
:17:42. > :17:46.bankers. We might come onto David Cameron's problems in a moment. The
:17:46. > :17:50.other way of looking at it is that if Ed Miliband handles it correctly,
:17:50. > :17:54.whatever that is, the British people might say he is one of those labour
:17:54. > :17:58.leaders who stood against militants or Tony Blair against clause four,
:17:59. > :18:08.Suite to -- he could define himself in the way he has not as yet.
:18:09. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:13.have been irregularities, and Unite has behaved in a very awkward way,
:18:13. > :18:19.and this should be resolved, but talking about severing the links
:18:20. > :18:22.once and for all with the trade unions, yes, but it is hypocrisy.
:18:22. > :18:30.First of all, the Labour Party cannot dump the unions at the
:18:30. > :18:34.moment. Since Ed Miliband was elected to the Labour leadership,
:18:34. > :18:40.and that was largely through Unite, that was his support, they have
:18:40. > :18:46.given �8 million. Nowadays, ridiculously so, elections are
:18:46. > :18:52.incredibly expensive. So they would go nude into the ballot box if they
:18:52. > :19:01.did not have any money. , so to speak. Len McCluskey, this charming
:19:01. > :19:07.old time socialist from way back, whose Bible is the ragged trousered
:19:07. > :19:11.philanthropists and all that. He has possibly boxed himself into a
:19:11. > :19:19.corner. He lost his temper and he started lecturing Ed Miliband about
:19:19. > :19:25.the history, and I think even some of his union members might say, hang
:19:25. > :19:28.on, roll back, because you cannot afford to lose this. A very bright
:19:28. > :19:31.Conservative MP pointed out that probably one third of union members
:19:32. > :19:38.vote Conservative. So to lecture union members about what they should
:19:38. > :19:42.do does not think about independent minded. He also uses the word
:19:42. > :19:49.socialism. The Labour Party don't want you to mention that word any
:19:49. > :19:52.more. But it is very serious for Ed Miliband. I don't think he will ever
:19:52. > :19:57.become Prime Minister, because I'm afraid it is the way he looks, and
:19:58. > :20:04.these things are important in a telegenic age. You want Hugh Grant
:20:04. > :20:11.instead? No, I just don't want somebody who looks like Gromit from
:20:11. > :20:15.Wallace and Gromit. They think he does not look like a Prime Minister.
:20:15. > :20:19.There has to be some kind of balance between the Labour Party as an
:20:19. > :20:24.expression of the labour movement in politics and the labour movement in
:20:24. > :20:31.terms of organised trade unions. When it appears to the voters that
:20:31. > :20:35.the unions are overriding the decision of their party leader, that
:20:35. > :20:39.is not good for the Labour Party. Under the balance has to be
:20:39. > :20:44.restored. Unfortunately, the Labour Party is in a transitional period at
:20:44. > :20:51.this time, and I think when it comes to the next election, the Labour
:20:51. > :20:56.Party will be different in terms of leadership and Outlook, probably.
:20:56. > :21:02.the last section I wanted to talk about the vote for an in or out
:21:02. > :21:07.referendum on the EU. And is there not a parallel between Ed
:21:07. > :21:13.Miliband's problems with the trade unions, and David Cameron and John
:21:13. > :21:19.Major's, all of the Tory leaders in between, with the most Eurosceptic
:21:19. > :21:24.or Europhobic people on the right wing of the party? It is all right
:21:24. > :21:29.to say it is just a few swivel eyed loons on the far right of the Tory
:21:29. > :21:35.party, but public opinion has gradually become more and more
:21:35. > :21:40.anti-EU. Although he was just playing this game, I think, that we
:21:40. > :21:44.will allow this Private members Bill, this is David Cameron. He was
:21:44. > :21:49.playing games, just to sort of say that he did want is to have a
:21:49. > :21:57.referendum but rather like St Augustine said, please make me a
:21:57. > :22:01.martyr, but not yet. He is going to delay it. It is quite difficult for
:22:01. > :22:11.the right wing in his party to unseat him. The other thing is that
:22:11. > :22:24.
:22:24. > :22:30.he panicked over UK -- UKip. I think they peaked, because I think Nigel
:22:30. > :22:33.Raj - Farage, the only star that they had, he is getting on people 's
:22:33. > :22:38.nerves, and they are starting to think, no. They came down in the
:22:38. > :22:42.opinion polls. What do you think about the difficulties that David
:22:42. > :22:45.Cameron has got with the right wing as a parallel? This is something
:22:45. > :22:49.that does not go away from Conservative leaders, just as the
:22:49. > :22:58.question of handling the unions does not go away for Labour leaders.
:22:58. > :23:01.is the hot potato. It is interesting to see it from a European
:23:01. > :23:07.perspective, as continentals wonder when the pantomime. . It is a kind
:23:07. > :23:14.of Carnival. A kind of masquerade. I am not sure, I think the latest poll
:23:14. > :23:19.said that Europe was the IRD number one of 2% of the British people.
:23:19. > :23:25.That is not what they really care about. -- was the number one
:23:25. > :23:29.priority. It is not just a continent that looks at it and thinks it is a
:23:29. > :23:34.fast, you can ask the electorate, do you want to stay or leave, but is
:23:34. > :23:40.this actually what you care about? There is always a cry for a
:23:40. > :23:46.referendum now, which is silly. I think it was a stunt. The vote does
:23:46. > :23:49.not bind anybody to anything. And in any case, you cannot bind an
:23:49. > :23:59.incoming government to watch you have already passed, unless you are
:23:59. > :24:04.having to win it. What would be the view of Egypt in the priorities of
:24:04. > :24:07.2017 and a referendum? It is a nice way of putting the question, but I'm
:24:07. > :24:13.not best qualified to answer, because I am British as well.
:24:13. > :24:23.dual nationality. In Britain there is a nostalgic feeling about the
:24:23. > :24:24.
:24:24. > :24:29.island empire, so to speak. I am old enough. If you ask in the street,
:24:29. > :24:37.young people of 20, do you mourn the loss of empire question what they
:24:37. > :24:42.will say, you what? I think it is the island mentality. There is a
:24:42. > :24:47.feeling of jealousy about European independence and not being a part of
:24:47. > :24:54.Europe as indicated as needs be. You deal with Europe, but you need to
:24:54. > :24:57.make a bridge. I do not know how to be European and maintain your
:24:57. > :25:02.nationality with that kind of guarded nurse to that extent. I
:25:02. > :25:05.think there has to be some kind of balance. I feel Egyptian, Arab,
:25:05. > :25:10.British, a citizen of the world and I don't have a problem with this,
:25:10. > :25:17.provided that I do not use any of this to feel better than anyone
:25:17. > :25:20.else. The other thing that struck me listening to the 2% priority of
:25:20. > :25:26.people, although people fiddled figures, but it is minority
:25:26. > :25:29.interest. There are worries in the Labour Party with the union row
:25:29. > :25:32.meaning that people were turned off politics, and there must be worries
:25:32. > :25:36.in the Conservative Party that if they are talking to themselves on
:25:36. > :25:40.this issue then people are turned off politics at a time when it is
:25:40. > :25:45.possible that MPs might get a pay rise, when no one else is getting
:25:45. > :25:54.one. It does seem a rather odd system Dahmer doesn't it? Mind you,
:25:54. > :26:03.on the playwright -- pay rise thing. It was decided that Singapore lives
:26:03. > :26:07.in a sea of corruption, so how do you stop corruption? You give the
:26:07. > :26:15.representatives whacking great pay rises, and stop them having
:26:15. > :26:19.independent businesses, and corruption disappeared overnight.
:26:19. > :26:25.And in the last index of transparency, the corruption index,
:26:25. > :26:32.Singapore is the only country in the top five who is not a Nordic
:26:32. > :26:36.country. And you think there is a link? There is a link. I didn't
:26:36. > :26:42.believe it myself, I thought it was ridiculous, but it worked out.
:26:42. > :26:48.rise for MPs, you heard it here first. And journalists excavation at