:00:02. > :00:12.There's a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC
:00:12. > :00:26.
:00:26. > :00:29.News, Dateline London with Gavin Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:29. > :00:32.London. Does the battle for control in Egypt prove the Arab Spring has
:00:32. > :00:36.failed? The 16-year-old Pakistani girl who demands education for all.
:00:36. > :00:39.And can the British Labour Party tame the unions - or the other way
:00:39. > :00:43.around? My guests today are Mustapha Karkouti, Gulf-based writer and
:00:43. > :00:48.broadcaster. Greg Katz of the Associated Press. Dr Saul Zadka of
:00:48. > :00:58.Al London. And Adam Raphael of Transport Magazine. Welcome to you
:00:58. > :01:04.
:01:04. > :01:11.all. The army take over in Egypt and it cleared signs other countries are
:01:11. > :01:17.facing problems with reform. Iraq is still in time while. Has the Arab
:01:17. > :01:26.world lost its way? Has the Arab Springfield to live up to all those
:01:26. > :01:33.hope? Do you think what is happening in Egypt suggests that the Arab
:01:33. > :01:39.Spring has failed? I don't think so. I think they are still looking for a
:01:39. > :01:44.way to go ahead. This is only a phase of the Arab Spring. It will
:01:44. > :01:49.take quite a few years, maybe five or ten years or maybe longer. This
:01:49. > :01:59.is happening after a long easy it, we're talking about four or five
:01:59. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:13.decades, of stalemate, of static situation. Libya had 42 years of
:02:13. > :02:13.
:02:14. > :02:20.Colonel Gaddafi. Egypt had many years of President Mubarak. You need
:02:20. > :02:28.time to cleanse the remaining rules. I am not really surprised
:02:28. > :02:35.that it has taken that long. It has failed, certainly not. We are not at
:02:35. > :02:42.the end of it. Has it lost its direction? Certainly not. It is
:02:42. > :02:47.zigzagging here and there. You are talking about the Arab world, which
:02:47. > :02:55.has been deprived of real politics, as we understand it in the West.
:02:55. > :03:00.Democracy, participation. People are learning while they are progressing
:03:00. > :03:06.at the moment, which is excellent and they are learning very fast
:03:06. > :03:12.because of the new young generation. Just click like that and
:03:12. > :03:19.you have two or 3 million. This has never happened over the last 40 or
:03:19. > :03:26.50 years. It is a new phenomenon in, and I am very optimistic about
:03:26. > :03:31.what might come out of that in the next five to ten years. There is
:03:31. > :03:37.great hope and there is clearly an appetite for democracy in all these
:03:37. > :03:41.Arab countries. What isn't is the structure and the political parties
:03:41. > :03:46.with long traditions, with the exception of the Muslim Brotherhood.
:03:46. > :03:53.I think he is being too optimistic or two enthusiastic about what to me
:03:53. > :03:57.looks like a process that has gone badly wrong. I would like to embrace
:03:57. > :04:06.what you're saying, but I think you're going to need 30 or 40 years
:04:06. > :04:10.time frame, to see coherent, peaceful civil societies emerge. I
:04:10. > :04:16.don't think we will see positive change in the next five years. When
:04:16. > :04:20.I look at Syria, when I look at Egypt, when I look at these places
:04:20. > :04:26.in such turmoil and so many contradictions, I just don't see a
:04:26. > :04:34.resolution emerging in the next two or three years. I see more chaos, or
:04:34. > :04:37.destruction and freely dangerous times. I think it was naive to think
:04:37. > :04:44.that it would come round in a season. I think it has gone wrong, I
:04:44. > :04:48.think it is not working, it has failed at this point. It would be
:04:48. > :04:56.unfair to pass judgements on the achievements of the Arab Spring only
:04:56. > :05:00.two years after its inception. The jury is still out. We all know that
:05:00. > :05:07.after 65 years of dictatorship, it is not going to be a quick fix. It
:05:07. > :05:11.is not going to be overnight. In Egypt, I think the Egyptians fell in
:05:11. > :05:20.love with democracy. Imagine that in France, everyone is fed up with the
:05:20. > :05:26.leader. After a year, the French would take control and everybody
:05:26. > :05:30.would be cheering about the possibility. This is something that
:05:30. > :05:40.we should emulate in the West, getting rid of a field president
:05:40. > :05:43.
:05:43. > :05:48.after one year only explanation mark that what is happening in Tunisia.
:05:48. > :05:52.There is a call for a national unity government. The fundamentalists are
:05:52. > :05:57.not the only people who are brokering power. Look at what
:05:57. > :06:02.happened in Yemen. That was the kind of solution I would have liked to
:06:02. > :06:10.see in Syria. They got rid of their president and then they declared a
:06:10. > :06:14.transitional government. Different countries, different springs. We
:06:14. > :06:22.cannot say the same about Syria, which is going into a civil war
:06:22. > :06:26.which will last for many years, in my opinion. The problem is it'll
:06:26. > :06:31.take a few more decades to have a proper discussion about the
:06:31. > :06:38.achievement of Arab Spring. You are not quite as optimistic, but broadly
:06:38. > :06:42.this might be a setback, but broadly it will go in the direction, it will
:06:42. > :06:48.go in the right direction and the appetite for democracy is there?
:06:48. > :06:57.Absolutely. The streets have become the preserve of people in favour of
:06:57. > :07:07.democracy. We did not even mention Libya. Libya is functioning to a
:07:07. > :07:10.
:07:10. > :07:15.certain extent. I share your scepticism about it. I think it will
:07:15. > :07:20.be a long, bloody and difficult process. Many of these Arab
:07:20. > :07:25.countries, I do not share the optimism. When one talks about the
:07:25. > :07:32.Arab Spring, it is like an unbuttoning of that horrific
:07:32. > :07:39.firmament below and nothing could stop it. With the Internet, with
:07:39. > :07:49.modern communications, the capacity to mobilise huge crowds within
:07:49. > :07:53.minutes is a factor which we will all have to get used to. I think
:07:53. > :07:58.this is a very dangerous period and I think what is happening in city in
:07:58. > :08:04.particular is a total tragedy which is not easily resolvable by anyone,
:08:04. > :08:13.either by the Syrians or outside influences. Has the Arab
:08:13. > :08:19.Springfield? No, but it is incredibly dangerous. This is the
:08:19. > :08:29.first time in the Arab world where there is hope for a change after
:08:29. > :08:31.
:08:31. > :08:38.such a long time. We have never had this. Now we have it. Has it reached
:08:39. > :08:43.its end? No, of course not. What is happening is only a phase, only a
:08:43. > :08:50.passing through situation, which will certainly change. It could
:08:50. > :08:56.change to the worse or the better. But things will settle when people
:08:56. > :09:06.realise that participation is the only way forward. We are not talking
:09:06. > :09:11.about a Western democracy in Egypt or Syria, certainly not. It will be
:09:11. > :09:17.a local democracy, something which people can understand and move along
:09:17. > :09:24.with and progress. So this is a long-term process, it is not
:09:25. > :09:29.short-term. I understand that. I do think it is a wish fulfilment, the
:09:29. > :09:36.desire for change is so intense among liberals and large sections of
:09:36. > :09:41.the population, that the goodwill but is there is so enormous, so the
:09:41. > :09:46.wish that this will succeed is so enormous that it is very difficult
:09:46. > :09:56.to take a realistic, even sceptical viewpoint about it, so I totally
:09:56. > :10:01.
:10:01. > :10:04.understand where you're coming from. I hope you are right.
:10:04. > :10:07.The most inspiring moment of the week came from a 16-year-old
:10:07. > :10:09.Pakistani girl Malala Yousafzai who was shot by the Taliban last year
:10:09. > :10:12.for the crime of wanting an education. Malala addressed the
:10:12. > :10:16.United Nations and the world - here's a clip. The talent and shot
:10:16. > :10:25.me on the left side of my forehead. They shot my friends too. They
:10:25. > :10:33.thought that the goal that would silence us. But they failed. And out
:10:33. > :10:38.of the silence came thousands of voices. The terrorists thought they
:10:38. > :10:46.would change my game and stop my ambitions, but nothing changed in my
:10:46. > :10:55.life except this. Weakness, fear and hopelessness died. Strength, fervour
:10:55. > :11:00.and courage were born. What do you think we have to do to help realise
:11:00. > :11:06.her dream of education for all children, in particular in her
:11:06. > :11:11.case, for girls in Pakistan. I think we have to listen and take it
:11:11. > :11:15.seriously and stop relying on the fact that change, boat because it is
:11:15. > :11:22.organic. We have to support people going in there to create
:11:22. > :11:26.programmes, you can create equality and still respect all traditions.
:11:26. > :11:32.You have to listen and hope in your heart that what she said, the reason
:11:32. > :11:36.it resonated so much yesterday, is that we get so much static. We
:11:36. > :11:41.listened to so many leaders and reports seeing so many only things.
:11:41. > :11:47.She is speaking from the heart with personal experience. People have to
:11:47. > :11:54.listen and try and find a way in, a way in, away to help. Part of the
:11:54. > :11:57.context is, she lives in an area where you workers trying to
:11:57. > :12:06.eradicate polio have been shot. There are some people who would
:12:06. > :12:11.prefer to live in them ignorant world, are there not? It was a very
:12:11. > :12:19.forceful speech, one of the best I have heard. The way she delivered it
:12:19. > :12:29.was very impressive. This is happening in a pro-Western country,
:12:29. > :12:31.
:12:31. > :12:35.where the western involvement is military. It seems to me that the
:12:36. > :12:45.West does not due much in order to try and said the lies this part of
:12:46. > :12:46.
:12:46. > :12:49.Pakistan. It is Malala who sometimes is more influential than many
:12:49. > :12:55.attempts by Western democracies to influence the domestic situation in
:12:55. > :12:59.Pakistan. I have talked to quite a few Pakistani politicians, and the
:12:59. > :13:07.way they put it is that the West is doing precisely the opposite,
:13:07. > :13:14.because the drone attacks in tribal areas undermine tribal leaders,
:13:14. > :13:24.undermine the central government and reinforce the voices of people like
:13:24. > :13:26.
:13:26. > :13:31.the Taliban. I am familiar with this argument, but you have to separate
:13:31. > :13:35.the drone attacks, which have a separate aim, to eradicate your hard
:13:35. > :13:44.disks. And the fact that in parallel, the West has to do much
:13:44. > :13:51.more to try and improve the life of ordinary people in this part of
:13:51. > :13:55.Pakistan. Most of the areas in Pakistan are affected by this
:13:55. > :14:00.primitive attitudes towards education and women's rights. Not
:14:00. > :14:05.only do we have to eradicate terrorists, but also ameliorate the
:14:05. > :14:08.life of ordinary Pakistanis. I don't want to decry that speech, which was
:14:08. > :14:15.very powerful and spoke to two issues, women's rights and
:14:15. > :14:19.education. But it was not the speech of a 16-year-old. It was written for
:14:19. > :14:24.her. She delivered it beautifully, but if we wish to make progress in
:14:24. > :14:29.this area, we have to listen very carefully to people we have very
:14:29. > :14:34.little in common with, people who are opposed to women's rights,
:14:34. > :14:39.women's education. We have to listen to them, we have to talk with them.
:14:39. > :14:44.That may be idealistic, but that is the sort of speech that is so easy
:14:44. > :14:49.from a western pointed you to applaud and think, marvellous. But
:14:49. > :14:55.from the view of Pakistan or Afghanistan, from fundamentalists,
:14:55. > :15:00.they would just regard that as a Western put up. And to some extent,
:15:00. > :15:05.it was. I think one has to acknowledge that. This was a way of
:15:05. > :15:09.putting across a very, very important, forceful message, but we
:15:09. > :15:19.have to think very carefully how that message is put over and
:15:19. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:27.received via the people we are trying to influence. It is a very
:15:27. > :15:33.difficult process because that could be that the West thinks one thing
:15:33. > :15:42.and they think another. Even those people most opposed to women's
:15:42. > :15:47.education, only a tiny minority believe in shooting young girls. We
:15:47. > :15:51.have to try to maximise our influence. I do not want to decry
:15:51. > :15:57.the speech because it is so powerful and so well done but I do not
:15:57. > :16:07.actually believe it will achieve very much. I feel strongly ashamed
:16:07. > :16:13.that until now, after ten years of being in Afghanistan, they have done
:16:13. > :16:21.very little on this front. They have been engaged in a security operation
:16:21. > :16:29.but socially, when it comes to education, they have not worked hard
:16:29. > :16:37.enough on that front at all. To listen to Malala Yousafzai, the
:16:37. > :16:47.speech was written for her and all that, but that symbolism. She was a
:16:47. > :16:55.symbol of the great issue. Education, poverty, etc. It really
:16:55. > :17:01.breaks my heart to say such things still around us. The West has done
:17:01. > :17:06.very little with that. I think it is a little patronising to suggest she
:17:06. > :17:12.did not write that. She may have written substantially with the help
:17:12. > :17:19.of a teacher or adviser or she may be a 16-year-old with tremendous
:17:19. > :17:29.writing ability. It is possible. The Americans and the British when ten
:17:29. > :17:32.
:17:32. > :17:37.and said we would work on social programmes. It just did not happen.
:17:37. > :17:47.How is a foreign invader going to influence a native population like
:17:47. > :17:47.
:17:47. > :17:51.best? It is just nonsense. Pakistan has not been occupied by the West.
:17:51. > :17:58.wanted to talk about the Arab world because one of the really remarkable
:17:58. > :18:08.things in the last 15 years, and I don't know the latest figures, but
:18:08. > :18:13.
:18:13. > :18:21.there are more women at university than men? 62% of the total. What is
:18:21. > :18:30.also not widely known is the ERM charge of huge responsibilities in
:18:30. > :18:37.the education field. That has been one of the huge changes. Invest
:18:37. > :18:47.money in it and you will get results. Pakistan is in urgent need
:18:47. > :18:47.
:18:47. > :18:51.of it all in the spring as well. Let's move on to British politics
:18:51. > :18:57.because Ed Miliband said he would be changing the century long
:18:57. > :19:02.relationship between the unions and his party, which could change the
:19:02. > :19:06.balance of power but also affect funding significantly. If the gamble
:19:06. > :19:15.likely to pay off a busy credible as the next prime minister of the
:19:15. > :19:19.United Kingdom? Has he done the right thing? I think he probably has
:19:19. > :19:24.done the correct thing but it is incredibly dangerous and difficult
:19:24. > :19:31.to see it through. It is too easy for people like Tony Blair to get
:19:31. > :19:35.rid of things like clause four which is a totally meaningless piece of
:19:35. > :19:41.Labour policy. This goes right to the heart of policy and is very
:19:41. > :19:47.difficult. Ed Miliband would not have been elected leader without the
:19:47. > :19:52.trade union vote. It is necessary for him to do this because otherwise
:19:52. > :19:58.he would be extremely vulnerable to opposition attacks, but he will also
:19:58. > :20:07.be in real trouble and the funding issue and was four or five years
:20:07. > :20:14.Labour could well be bankrupt. -- with Ben. What he is saying is you
:20:14. > :20:23.have to contract in. Previously it was just taken as read and the money
:20:23. > :20:28.was given over. The old labour union link will continue. Labour is the
:20:29. > :20:35.voice of trade unionism and it began after that and continues and it will
:20:35. > :20:40.continue to be a powerful voice within it. That is why I think
:20:40. > :20:49.Miller band has had to do their spot at the same time, what a gamble that
:20:49. > :20:54.none of his predecessors have the Arctic. -- have they would take.
:20:54. > :21:01.Tony Blair chose the battle that he was going to fight. Ed Miliband has
:21:01. > :21:08.been dragged into this, and it is not the battle he chose to fight.
:21:08. > :21:16.Neither the battle nor the timing. Despite the fact it looks so
:21:16. > :21:23.benevolent, and Lee have said they are willing to consider it and
:21:23. > :21:28.engage in some negotiation, but he has to understand that as he was
:21:28. > :21:33.exchanging insults with the Prime Minister, both of them were right
:21:33. > :21:41.because it is right that the Tories under the thumb of the few tycoons
:21:41. > :21:47.that financed the Berkeley, David Cameron is also right in saying that
:21:47. > :21:53.Ed Miliband is in the pocket of the unions. The only other way to do it
:21:53. > :22:03.is to think about other ways to finance the parties. Tax the people
:22:03. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:12.and give our hard earned cash to the politicians? That is what we call
:22:12. > :22:17.the parties law in which the state funds every political party on the
:22:17. > :22:26.basis of size so if you have two members of parliament, you get some
:22:26. > :22:36.money... You should look at it in the long term. Whether that is going
:22:36. > :22:36.
:22:36. > :22:40.to work or not, I believe it will open the door for a broad discussion
:22:40. > :22:47.with in the British parties about funding and how to move ahead
:22:47. > :22:53.because yes, it will be a problem for Labour but it could be even more
:22:53. > :22:59.acute for others in the future. he handles it well, he could say
:22:59. > :23:06.look what I've done. It opens the door for huge debate within the
:23:06. > :23:13.existing political parties. They want Ed Miliband to change the
:23:13. > :23:20.policy and moved to the left. will be irrelevant if the debate
:23:20. > :23:30.opens up. I have left you until last because the shaming model for
:23:30. > :23:34.
:23:34. > :23:38.political funding of the United States. -- shining model. Campaign
:23:38. > :23:43.finance reform, they are so many ways they have tried to change it
:23:43. > :23:50.and there's always a loophole. Unfortunately, none of this has
:23:50. > :23:55.worked in the US and my framework goes back to Nixon and Kennedy. All
:23:55. > :24:01.you have seen is the influence of the lobbyists and the corporate
:24:01. > :24:08.money grow and grow and grow. All of the reforms have field and the US
:24:08. > :24:15.have really just admitted it will stop campaign reform is not going to
:24:15. > :24:20.be effective. One of the things which happens constantly during
:24:20. > :24:26.presidential elections as there are various committees to support
:24:26. > :24:33.somebody which are separate from the presidential candidates which often
:24:33. > :24:42.run the most damaging advertisements. They are
:24:42. > :24:47.tremendously effective. They managed to turn a legitimate Vietnam War
:24:47. > :24:54.hero into something else entirely. One thing Americans have done which
:24:54. > :24:59.is useful would be at check off that when you fill your tax returns, are
:24:59. > :25:09.you willing to give �5 to fund political parties and you can click
:25:09. > :25:15.it or not, quickly few people can be persuaded. -- quite a view. It can
:25:15. > :25:19.be done and people do realise that parties can be funded. The argument
:25:19. > :25:24.has never been properly waged and it is not a popular issue but what are
:25:24. > :25:31.the alternatives? To ensure the health of democracy, I would pay
:25:31. > :25:35.some money. The way this is going as the Conservatives could easily see,
:25:35. > :25:40.if you are elected you will bring about state funding and money that
:25:40. > :25:46.did go to hospitals and schools will go in your pockets. The other line
:25:47. > :25:51.of argument that Ed Miliband could use it as you can get money to the
:25:51. > :26:00.Conservative party and end up in the House of Lords. We have to start