:00:12. > :00:14.London. -- Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Did
:00:14. > :00:16.Robert Mugabe steal the Zimbabwe election or win fair and square?
:00:16. > :00:21.Edward Snowden in Russia - traitor or whistle-blower? And how many
:00:21. > :00:23.members of the House of Lords do we really need? My guests today are
:00:23. > :00:25.Mina al Oraibi of Asharq al Awsat. Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt.
:00:25. > :00:35.Tererai Karimakwenda of SW Radio Africa. And Alex Deane of
:00:35. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:41.Conservative Home. Very good to see you. Election monitors from the
:00:41. > :00:43.African Union and the South African states claim the Zimbabwe election
:00:43. > :00:45.was free and peaceful. Others say that the electoral roll includes
:00:46. > :00:47.more than 100,000 people over 100 years old and that in the cities
:00:47. > :00:50.where the opposition to Robert Mugabe is strong, hundreds of
:00:50. > :00:52.thousands were unable to vote. So has Robert Mugabe stolen the
:00:52. > :01:02.election or won it? And if the African monitors insist it was fair,
:01:02. > :01:05.
:01:05. > :01:11.should sanctions now be lifted. Just set the scene. Sinbad Way is
:01:11. > :01:15.certainly a better place than it was five years ago? The nation is at
:01:15. > :01:19.least under control so some things have improved? Only that has
:01:19. > :01:26.improved. Not much else has changed because when they formed the
:01:26. > :01:30.coalition, it was to save the economy because inflation was
:01:30. > :01:34.sky-high but the problem is equal edition was never a coalition,
:01:34. > :01:37.Robert Mugabe remained in control and still calls all of the shots.
:01:37. > :01:43.This election was stolen and everybody knows that and they
:01:43. > :01:48.planned it. All of the facts point to that. People in the areas being
:01:48. > :01:53.assisted to vote, being told by their traditional leaders that when
:01:53. > :02:02.you vote, you say that you cannot read and write and people will vote
:02:02. > :02:10.for you. Election officials were being marched into -- into stations.
:02:10. > :02:15.Why a don't the monitors say that? Well, the independent observers have
:02:15. > :02:20.said that it was not credible and if you listen to the language that the
:02:20. > :02:25.observers have used, they said it was peaceful and free but they have
:02:25. > :02:32.avoided using the word fair. Because they know it was not. The election
:02:32. > :02:37.was stolen in a very clever way and violence has been the method of the
:02:37. > :02:42.last few elections. But this time, they minimised by Alan 's to a
:02:42. > :02:47.negligible degree and they did technical rigging. In each electoral
:02:47. > :02:57.ward, there were three polling stations that were not known about
:02:57. > :03:01.and only Zanu-PF people went there. They still don't have any electronic
:03:01. > :03:06.copy of that so we cannot evaluate any of those names. What do you make
:03:06. > :03:15.of those elections and how other countries should respond? If it is
:03:15. > :03:23.officially free, it puts the EU in a spot? The point is, they were not
:03:23. > :03:33.there and that is clear to everyone. Only very specific observer missions
:03:33. > :03:34.
:03:34. > :03:38.were allowed. There was no independent EU observer mission.
:03:38. > :03:42.That was perhaps a political mistake? They put themselves in a
:03:42. > :03:46.corner, we will trust what they say and not that they have said this was
:03:46. > :03:50.free and peaceful, the fact that it was peaceful was important for the
:03:50. > :03:56.country but what happens afterwards will be very important and the fact
:03:56. > :04:04.that the MDC has said they do not agree. Before any other country
:04:04. > :04:09.takes any position, we have to see how the opposition is treated.
:04:09. > :04:16.call the election free and peaceful demeans those very words. What is a
:04:16. > :04:19.free country where electoral rules are manipulative? And are
:04:19. > :04:25.intimidated? Intimidation takes the place of violence, they did not have
:04:25. > :04:30.to use violence so much. Three quarters of the people live in rural
:04:30. > :04:36.areas and new settlers have been given land and are being told not to
:04:36. > :04:43.vote for MVC or they will lose their land. This is intimidation. And this
:04:43. > :04:48.has been one at a price. And I hope that the EU will wake up and say
:04:48. > :04:56.that sanctions must be sharpened and we must do something about this and
:04:56. > :05:00.do not accept this. There is what people outside the country and
:05:00. > :05:06.within. The prospect of violence hangs over this. If you were in the
:05:06. > :05:12.opposition, what do you do? kidding, and Zanu-PF has said, if
:05:12. > :05:20.you think we have fixed this, you can go to court. And we will also
:05:20. > :05:25.fix that! The same court has ruled against anything that challenges the
:05:25. > :05:28.authority of Robert Mugabe. They are appointed by the same party. It is
:05:28. > :05:36.like asking the police to investigate themselves. He has
:05:36. > :05:41.already fixed the election. For MVC, there is a terrible danger. When
:05:41. > :05:46.there is talk about lifting sanctions, there is danger that
:05:46. > :05:51.younger activists want to go to extreme measures. With nowhere else
:05:51. > :05:59.to turn, frustrated people who believe in democracy, that is where
:05:59. > :06:04.they will go. When you have leaders like Jacob Zuma, the chief
:06:04. > :06:09.facilitator for the coalition, making statements before the
:06:09. > :06:13.official announcement, he was already proclaiming that it was
:06:13. > :06:22.peaceful and Zanu-PF has won in a landslide. It is like a gang of
:06:22. > :06:29.thugs. Because they don't point fingers at each other. They are
:06:29. > :06:34.pretty much greedy and corrupt. Whatever people might say over here,
:06:34. > :06:42.is it time to just accept that your country has got a president for
:06:42. > :06:47.life? And the only way he will leave is if or if he dies? He has said in
:06:47. > :06:55.the early days of his presidency, we took this country by the gun and we
:06:55. > :06:59.shall keep it I begun. -- keep it by the gun. Who wants to run for
:06:59. > :07:07.president at the age of 89? He was asked, would you run again in five
:07:07. > :07:11.years? He said, why not? I would even box you! The problem is the
:07:11. > :07:16.ordinary people will suffer because I spoke to a man yesterday who had
:07:16. > :07:22.lost everything, his village was burned down and he still went on to
:07:22. > :07:28.vote, just hoping they could change something and now the election has
:07:28. > :07:34.been stolen. How do you tell him to vote the next time? The idea of
:07:34. > :07:39.Robert Mugabe going on and on puts a light on this and the country is not
:07:39. > :07:46.free until this man dies and asked -- that makes a mockery of
:07:46. > :07:51.democratic rule. All of the international ventures, especially
:07:51. > :07:54.in the Middle East, means Western powers are so afraid of intervention
:07:54. > :08:01.and that is why I put the importance on the economic situation, but
:08:01. > :08:05.because he is great economic way, but my favourite restaurant has all
:08:05. > :08:12.of those notes on the wall. Things are finally in control so that it
:08:12. > :08:17.does not spill into the outside. That is the international test. But
:08:17. > :08:22.linked into that is the issue of sanctions because they have not
:08:22. > :08:31.heard his ability to rule. At what point are you hurting the people and
:08:31. > :08:36.the economy than the person? thing about sanctions is, if they
:08:36. > :08:41.had been total, that would be one thing, but they took half measures.
:08:41. > :08:46.Preventing travel but he still travels to New York for that United
:08:46. > :08:54.Nations function, brings his wife and his entourage. If you are going
:08:54. > :09:00.to do it, do it! In southern Africa, we have Nelson Mandela, universally
:09:00. > :09:03.regarded as a living hero, and in Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, of a
:09:03. > :09:11.similar vintage and age and background, both led liberation
:09:11. > :09:15.struggles. Why is it that Robert Mugabe does not understand or does
:09:15. > :09:21.he not care about how history will regard him whereas Nelson Mandela is
:09:21. > :09:27.regarded very differently because he very easily gave up our? You would
:09:27. > :09:34.think he would want the same thing, writing his memoirs. But the
:09:34. > :09:42.difference is that Nelson Mandela did not have any blood on his hands.
:09:42. > :09:47.No skeletons in his cupboard. we recall those massacres, killing
:09:47. > :09:53.tens of thousands. He has got blood on his hands and they have been very
:09:53. > :09:58.corrupt. Nelson Mandela was different. One final thought,
:09:58. > :10:03.Zimbabwe has moved down the ladder of importance because we have other
:10:03. > :10:06.crisis areas in the world. And the massacre is one reason that he
:10:06. > :10:14.cannot afford to give up power because he will be vulnerable to
:10:14. > :10:17.retribution. We shall move on. Edward Snowden is a fugitive from
:10:17. > :10:19.American justice. The man who alerted the world to the extent of
:10:19. > :10:21.the monitoring of emails and other internet traffic by the United
:10:21. > :10:23.States National Security Agency and the British GCHQ. This week, Russian
:10:23. > :10:26.authorities allowed him a temporary stay in their country, which means
:10:26. > :10:28.he can at last leave Moscow airport. The Obama administration is furious.
:10:28. > :10:38.Is Snowden a traitor or a whistle-blower? Has he done the
:10:38. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:42.world a service or betrayed his country. It is less clear what the
:10:42. > :10:46.American public thinks because on both right and left, people say that
:10:46. > :10:50.they be he should not have done this but he has alerted us to something
:10:50. > :10:59.pretty terrible? Is a very serious conversation going on about
:10:59. > :11:01.surveillance in Congress and in the media. He has done a service. It is
:11:01. > :11:07.interesting and the Obama administration will be up in arms
:11:07. > :11:10.but we shall see what happens. The Russians have said that he can stay
:11:10. > :11:20.and they have said only for one year because the document expires but
:11:20. > :11:23.that could be extended. Also, he has been asked not to do any licking or
:11:23. > :11:28.political activity in Russia and that is usually what happens when
:11:28. > :11:33.somebody defects to another country. You take that position. For the
:11:33. > :11:38.United States, he has done a service and more than the issue about
:11:38. > :11:43.Wikileaks and all of those documents, this was the selected by
:11:43. > :11:47.the fact that he was writing stories. Most people would not read
:11:47. > :11:52.these online but these were written in a way that people could consume
:11:52. > :12:00.them, that makes them much more of a whistle-blower. With Bradley Manning
:12:00. > :12:05.and the fact they could try him on espionage, which is something new,
:12:05. > :12:10.but says a lot about America today and what the illustration and
:12:10. > :12:16.government is like. He was found not guilty on the most experienced --
:12:16. > :12:21.serious charge? That is the thing because aiding the enemy is one
:12:21. > :12:26.thing but espionage? Who are you doing espionage for? There is always
:12:26. > :12:32.another side, the enemy? This could not be used because this was just
:12:32. > :12:39.whistle-blowing. That will reflect on this and what charges could be
:12:39. > :12:45.used. Espionage could be used. If that was used with Bradley Manning.
:12:45. > :12:48.What do you think? The parallel with the Richard Nixon period is telling
:12:48. > :12:54.because he carried out targeted surveillance against opponents and
:12:54. > :12:58.was rightly reviled by international political life. We now have
:12:58. > :13:04.administrations of both colours who conduct ongoing surveillance of
:13:04. > :13:10.everyone all the time and are basically OK about that. In those 40
:13:10. > :13:16.years, we have seen the delusion of liberty and freedom and the
:13:16. > :13:21.Economist writes about the lost decade of liberty and that is right.
:13:21. > :13:25.Millions of people, their data being accumulated and stored without
:13:25. > :13:32.warrant by national authorities. It is vital that we no about that and I
:13:32. > :13:36.welcome the fact that we have had that revealed to us. The other point
:13:36. > :13:40.is we have to keep some sense of perspective. We still have a better
:13:40. > :13:46.chance of the rule of law and of the state conducting due process in
:13:46. > :13:53.America than we do in a country like Zimbabwe. Or the countries that he
:13:53. > :13:58.fled to, China and Russia. To make a statement about freedom, he goes to
:13:58. > :14:04.either of those countries? ! I would totally agree but the balance
:14:04. > :14:07.between national security and the excuse has been allowing people
:14:07. > :14:11.freedom of information and freedom of speech and that is a very tough
:14:11. > :14:18.call in the age of terrorism. We have to look at that, where do we
:14:18. > :14:24.draw the line? Ten years ago, the procedure was to identify the
:14:24. > :14:32.individual and conduct surveillance. We have reversed that! However
:14:32. > :14:36.serious the threat of terrorism, it is very serious. This is not the
:14:36. > :14:41.Cold War or the point at which in the 1980s, for example, the Queen
:14:41. > :14:44.was given a speech to prepare in case we were at nuclear war.
:14:44. > :14:54.Terrorism is very unpleasant but hardly the threat that the Cold War
:14:54. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :15:03.was? It is a big threat when you think about the terrorism that has
:15:03. > :15:10.happened. A lot of the information is rubbish, which nobody has the
:15:10. > :15:17.time or the personnel to look through. It is a fact of life. We
:15:17. > :15:21.live in an age where technology and data collection is a way of life.
:15:21. > :15:29.The Russians do it and they probably benefit from the Americans might
:15:29. > :15:39.find out. The eyes are everywhere. Big Brother is a technical logical
:15:39. > :15:40.
:15:40. > :15:48.expert who might force a new terrorist attack. That is a pure
:15:48. > :15:55.suggestion. A British person might say, we had much more violence high
:15:55. > :16:05.incidence or loss of life under the IRA than we have had. We didn't then
:16:05. > :16:15.
:16:15. > :16:18.allow the state to incur it in any such extreme A. -- extreme way.
:16:18. > :16:24.While they are gathering this information, how did they then mist
:16:24. > :16:30.the obvious things like the Boston bombings? A lot of what they were
:16:30. > :16:37.doing had been online. It was clues. You have to know this
:16:37. > :16:41.information. You are not looking at the ones that you should be. It is
:16:41. > :16:46.fine looking for a needle in a haystack but if you are getting
:16:46. > :16:51.bigger haystacks, it is more difficult. What we can't take for
:16:51. > :16:57.granted is the liberties you do have in countries like the UK and others.
:16:57. > :16:59.You constantly have to be fighting to maintain those rights and
:17:00. > :17:07.liberties and protect the rights. It can change quickly and we have seen
:17:07. > :17:13.that. Not in the space of a month or two but in years and decades. The US
:17:13. > :17:17.has changed and marry Americans -- Mary Americans are saying this is
:17:17. > :17:26.not acceptable. You have taken a step too far and you can't use this
:17:26. > :17:30.fear to accept that you are right. would wonder whether from the
:17:31. > :17:36.whistle-blower experience, a lot of the constitution will change. There
:17:36. > :17:41.will be oversight committees. are currently either meeting or
:17:41. > :17:48.secret or they are not allowed to publish their findings. It will
:17:48. > :17:58.continue. Caught in the states have approved every request the data
:17:58. > :17:58.
:17:58. > :18:02.since 2007. Give me that rubber stamp, please. Even if you are
:18:02. > :18:08.right, people don't mind what is happening. Even if this is justified
:18:08. > :18:12.and you don't need this, it is changing things. The Guardian
:18:12. > :18:20.reported that there was a keystroke programme is being used. Not just
:18:20. > :18:24.blocking your calls or that time or who it was two, logging what you are
:18:24. > :18:34.saying online. That is new and this programme that the Guardian
:18:34. > :18:40.revealed, that may change people' minds. These debates are going to
:18:40. > :18:43.come up time and time again as the technology changes. With the
:18:43. > :18:47.exception of the People's Republic of China, the biggest chamber in the
:18:47. > :18:51.world is here in Britain. The House of Lords has more than 800 members
:18:51. > :18:55.and another couple of dozen were out of this week. It includes people
:18:55. > :19:01.with real expertise and experience, which is true, but how far is it a
:19:01. > :19:07.juicy reward for those that services for the political parties? Do we
:19:07. > :19:16.really need a change plus? probably don't but we need more
:19:16. > :19:21.working members than we have. You are in this awkward situation. There
:19:21. > :19:27.ought to be a thinning of the herd but that doesn't mean you don't meet
:19:27. > :19:32.new people. -- need new people. If there are people who haven't turned
:19:32. > :19:38.up in a good decade, maybe we should question their ongoing status. Maybe
:19:38. > :19:42.it needs the Supreme Court house the judges, a supplementary list. If you
:19:42. > :19:51.come off being a full blown member of the Lord's you become an
:19:52. > :19:55.associate. The point while we debate this, is it is part of our
:19:55. > :19:58.parliamentary system comment rereview chamber and it is really
:19:59. > :20:05.important. If people are not bothered to turn up, it puts it into
:20:05. > :20:09.question. It peculiarly believes that only the UK is the relevant
:20:09. > :20:14.area. When we talk about the democratic second chamber stop
:20:14. > :20:19.people say this will clash with the lower chamber. They seem to struggle
:20:19. > :20:24.on in America, Australia, they somehow make those systems work. We
:20:24. > :20:30.need a reflective, calming second chamber to guard against whatever
:20:30. > :20:37.Randolph called the turmoils of democracy. There is no doubt that we
:20:37. > :20:44.need this reflective chamber to look at this. If intellectual prowess and
:20:44. > :20:51.other entitlements to wish them that they have is the only principle, we
:20:51. > :20:54.should open it some more. -- wisdom. People have skills and wisdom and
:20:54. > :21:00.experience and they could contribute to the welfare of the nation. There
:21:00. > :21:07.is a need for a logical cap on members. You saw that with life
:21:07. > :21:14.peerages. It is open for tit-for-tat appointments and political deals,
:21:14. > :21:19.people who have donated. The fact that you are discussing this on this
:21:19. > :21:22.level means you have advanced to quite a decent spread -- stage. If
:21:22. > :21:27.you look at the Parliament of that other country we were talking about
:21:27. > :21:32.other, we have people who never went to school and no clue what democracy
:21:32. > :21:36.is about. We have a lot to catch up to. What needs to be changed is the
:21:36. > :21:46.idea that why does it have to be people who have contributed
:21:46. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:54.financially to this? You could say, why not? There is some people who
:21:54. > :22:01.say there is an appetite to fund political parties. Do you think that
:22:01. > :22:04.in particular is an abuse because it suggests you can buy your way in?
:22:04. > :22:14.Specifically because so many people that were caught up in spangles to
:22:14. > :22:15.
:22:15. > :22:24.do with the banking and financial sector had financial titles also. --
:22:24. > :22:27.scandal to do with the banking and financial sector. There are those
:22:27. > :22:35.that can buy their way through politics and so that blurring of the
:22:35. > :22:38.lines between the financial world and the political world is here.
:22:38. > :22:42.was labour liberals, Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives,
:22:42. > :22:47.their nominees that went through. You have the other parties that
:22:47. > :22:55.think it is like the developing world and it is wrong. They do have
:22:56. > :23:00.a point to make and appalling. We didn't split their vote, they split
:23:00. > :23:05.theirs. We beat them in a by-election. I think they will win
:23:05. > :23:08.by-election. I think they will win the next electric -- election. The
:23:08. > :23:18.next European election. Part of their message is we are not politics
:23:18. > :23:19.
:23:20. > :23:23.as usual. In defence of the House of Lords, if you are designing it, you
:23:23. > :23:27.will never get one that looks like what you have got now. Even if you
:23:27. > :23:34.are seeking to reform it, you won't get what Tony Blair did which is to
:23:34. > :23:37.trash it up a bit and then move on. It does to work and they pride
:23:37. > :23:41.themselves on holding the government of the day to account and they have
:23:41. > :23:47.great debates in House of Lords. They have much more thoughtful
:23:47. > :23:51.debates in the way that the Commons can't or hasn't got the time to do.
:23:51. > :23:55.The theory of it is great. People have life experience. They aren't
:23:55. > :23:59.thinking about the next election and they should be thinking about the
:23:59. > :24:02.good of the country and the longer term and they don't have anything to
:24:02. > :24:11.prove and whatever headline is going to come out. The theory is
:24:11. > :24:16.brilliant. It has put paid to Nick Clegg's idea that he wanted to have
:24:16. > :24:21.a vote for the chamber. I think while the theory is good, the number
:24:21. > :24:28.is expanding to a degree that people think it is a farce. At least the
:24:28. > :24:34.new list of nominees list is a broader range of people. There is a
:24:34. > :24:38.policeman and a journalist in there. A final thought on this, one of the
:24:38. > :24:41.Conservative peers, Lord Howell, said it would be great to have
:24:41. > :24:46.fracking in the north-east of England because it was so desolate
:24:46. > :24:50.there. To a lot of people, it was regarded as insulted or funny
:24:50. > :24:55.because they didn't know that she didn't know whether North was?
:24:55. > :25:01.got his region wrong and he has been wrong to say that any region in
:25:01. > :25:07.England is desolate. He has been at round ever since. What he is right
:25:07. > :25:12.to say is we desperately need an energy solution and fracking seems
:25:12. > :25:15.to me, visit. It could halve our energy costs. We have these
:25:15. > :25:21.extraordinary protests over something that is so far
:25:21. > :25:25.conventional drilling, it demonstrates the extraordinary