:00:01. > :00:03.bulletin of news at the top of the hour.
:00:03. > :00:13.Now on BBC News, Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:13. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:33.London. Anyone remember the Cold War? Obama says no to a summit with
:00:33. > :00:40.Putin. The Palestinians and Israelis, are they serious about
:00:40. > :00:43.peace talks? And how to handle the cyber bullies. My guests are Dmitry
:00:43. > :00:45.Shishkin of BBC Global News, Agnes Poirier of Marianne, Yasmin Alibhai
:00:45. > :00:53.Brown of the Independent, and Mustapha Karkouti, who is a
:00:53. > :00:55.Gulf-based writer and broadcaster. The United States has called off a
:00:55. > :00:58.planned meeting between President Obama and Vladimir Putin, citing a
:00:58. > :01:01.host of reasons, but with the decision by Moscow to grant the
:01:01. > :01:03.fugitive intelligence analyst Edward Snowden a year's stay clearly in
:01:03. > :01:08.everyone's minds, President Obama suggested Mr Putin's Kremlin has a
:01:08. > :01:13.Cold War mindset. How serious are the problems between the two
:01:13. > :01:21.countries? You have just come back from
:01:21. > :01:28.Russia? I have, I spent ten days on holiday there. How is it been seen
:01:28. > :01:32.by the Kremlin? People are not too bothered by what has happened, about
:01:32. > :01:38.not coming to see Vladimir Putin. I do not think that lots of people
:01:38. > :01:42.will get frustrated by this summit but taking place. Increasingly since
:01:42. > :01:46.Putin got re-elected, he start aim to much attention to what the West
:01:46. > :01:56.has been saying about him, knowing that he is needed by the West on so
:01:56. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:03.many different fronts that they can do whatever he wants. It started
:02:03. > :02:11.with Russian retaliation, by the Russians prohibiting Americans for
:02:11. > :02:18.adopting Russian orphans. -- from adopting. And then there is the
:02:18. > :02:22.thing, what to do with Snowden. Once Obama decided not to go, the
:02:22. > :02:28.reaction was, well, Obama behaved as though he was a small child, he
:02:28. > :02:35.threw his toys out of the pram. He took offence, and the Russians do
:02:35. > :02:42.not like their enemies to be weak, and this was seen as weakness.
:02:42. > :02:49.can be quite dangerous thinking, this sort of thing. It could be, but
:02:49. > :02:57.in the past, Obama did not attend Vladivostok, although he was not
:02:57. > :03:02.officially scheduled to go, but it was gradually happening. Across all
:03:02. > :03:07.these issues, we will still have Russian Corporation. We have seen
:03:07. > :03:11.Sergei Lavrov meeting with John Kerry. There will be lots and lots
:03:11. > :03:19.of different fronts were Russian cooperation with the West is needed,
:03:19. > :03:25.Iran, Syria, lots of things. This is one of these extraordinary moral
:03:25. > :03:30.multiple dilemmas. All the stuff that goes on with Vladimir Putin and
:03:30. > :03:36.the Russian attitudes to gay people and all of that. These are things to
:03:36. > :03:40.oppose, but at the same time, when Snowden gets refuge there, and
:03:40. > :03:46.Snowden has done the world the big service, let's face it, by exposing
:03:46. > :03:53.so much of the stuff that America did not want the world to see, I now
:03:53. > :03:57.find, which side are my own? The land of the free, the leading nation
:03:57. > :04:04.of the free world, is actually extremely not free. It does not want
:04:04. > :04:14.to be free. It upset me about her American Obama is. Obama is an
:04:14. > :04:18.American first and last. Yes, he is also black, but that also struck me.
:04:18. > :04:23.In terms of the freedom argument, it is an argument that has been heard
:04:23. > :04:27.by the Economist last week, about liberty being rather stake and the
:04:27. > :04:32.Statue of Liberty not looking healthy on the cover, are using that
:04:32. > :04:40.the United States, since 9/11, the balance has shifted in favour of
:04:40. > :04:47.security? It is not even since then. If you look back in the days of
:04:47. > :04:52.Kennedy, it has always been a society that spies on people. Martin
:04:52. > :04:55.Luther King was spied on endlessly by all the agencies. It is not a new
:04:55. > :05:00.part of the culture, but with new technology it reaches a whole new
:05:00. > :05:07.level. I wish they would just stop saying that they demand that leads
:05:07. > :05:13.the free world. Vladimir Putin makes no such claim for Russia, is that
:05:13. > :05:23.what you're seeing? I do not want to defend him, because I just cannot
:05:23. > :05:31.tell you what I think of Britain. can go back to Napoleon. -- what I
:05:31. > :05:38.think of Vladimir Putin. He had a secret police. Snowden is not Kim
:05:38. > :05:46.Philby. We talk about the Cold War, because we love the Cold War. The
:05:46. > :05:53.atmosphere, it was simple. It was black and white values. Look at the
:05:53. > :05:59.success of that film, Tinker, tailor, soldier, spy. It was great
:05:59. > :06:02.for that time. Today is shades of grey. Obama does not look that
:06:02. > :06:09.exciting any more, especially when we know how much Civil Liberties
:06:09. > :06:14.have been incurred. Russia, obviously, we know is on a thorough
:06:14. > :06:20.TV and resume, yet they are giving asylum to that guy who has no
:06:20. > :06:23.rootless. One thing about Snowden, the important thing about that,
:06:23. > :06:29.Snowden, in the eyes of the Americans, betrayed the American
:06:29. > :06:35.system, but more importantly, even in the eyes of Vladimir Putin, who
:06:35. > :06:41.is a former KGB agent, he is a traitor. Vladimir Putin does not
:06:41. > :06:45.like that? Irrespective of who he betrayed. This week, we have seen
:06:45. > :06:55.what has happened in Yemen, the closure of embassies in the Arab
:06:55. > :06:56.
:06:56. > :07:03.world. That was based on a simple wiretap of Al-Qaeda leaders, which
:07:03. > :07:06.is said to be the justification of all the spine? Yes, that is what
:07:06. > :07:13.makes the whole story more interesting, that we need a lot more
:07:13. > :07:18.than one Snowden, more than one in the world, if you like, because that
:07:18. > :07:24.is a lot of information which is hidden that we do not know about.
:07:24. > :07:30.The good thing is that he revealed a few things. During the Cold War,
:07:30. > :07:36.things were black and white, now it is shades of grey. But it is
:07:36. > :07:41.surprising the way the Obama administration reacted. Certainly,
:07:41. > :07:45.one has to be fair to Obama that he is under right-wing pressure,
:07:45. > :07:51.Republican pressure and all that. Congress would have gone crazy.
:07:51. > :07:58.Absolutely. But the way he approached it is really not
:07:58. > :08:06.convincing to me. Vladimir Putin is playing Obama. It is not the other
:08:06. > :08:10.way around. Is that how you see it? It is evident that during Soviet
:08:10. > :08:15.times, the Kremlin was more interested in dealing with the
:08:15. > :08:20.Republicans, because they always knew where they stood. Democrats are
:08:20. > :08:24.not quite clear where they are, and representatives of the American
:08:24. > :08:30.administration, almost by default, are required to raise issues about
:08:30. > :08:38.human rights, but the Kremlin does not a attention to that. It will be
:08:38. > :08:42.interesting to see what will happen in the next few months about Sochi.
:08:42. > :08:45.Russia always finds itself shooting itself in the food in trying to do
:08:45. > :08:54.something and then reacting and trying to pre-empt the Western
:08:54. > :09:00.opinion, but with Sochi specifically, nobody is sure that
:09:00. > :09:05.Sochi will be boycotted. Stephen Fry, the real leader of the world,
:09:05. > :09:11.has spoken! Unlike the Pope, he is not
:09:12. > :09:17.absolutely infallible! He more adored. It is interesting to note
:09:17. > :09:24.that bidders will cooperation between the US and Russia on several
:09:24. > :09:31.issues in the region, Iran and South Korea. But with Syria, they are
:09:31. > :09:36.fighting over that. It is like chess. We have Snowden, and we must
:09:36. > :09:40.tackle Syria and the human rights and the Winter Olympics. The party
:09:40. > :09:43.has not stopped since the Second World War. Let's move on.
:09:43. > :09:48.Peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians usually begin with very
:09:48. > :09:51.low expectations and generally these low expectations are met in full.
:09:51. > :09:54.But Secretary of State John Kerry is bringing the two sides together
:09:54. > :09:59.again next week in Jerusalem and then later in Ramallah. What hopes
:09:59. > :10:03.should we have, if any? I do not think it is very hopeful. We have
:10:03. > :10:09.been there before. This is a John Kerry game, really, more than
:10:09. > :10:16.anything else. They give it the title of peace talks, but it is
:10:16. > :10:18.really about John Kerry. He's trying find something for his role as
:10:19. > :10:28.Secretary of State as his predecessors have done over the last
:10:28. > :10:34.20 or 30 years. But it seems that Obama is allowing him to do it his
:10:34. > :10:40.way. If it works, Obama will certainly chip in, he will clinch
:10:40. > :10:46.the result at the end. If not, it will be John Kerry's failure, on his
:10:46. > :10:51.own. It is likely Rubiks cube of diplomacy. If you could get this to
:10:51. > :10:57.work, lots of other things would fall into place. Yes, it is worth a
:10:57. > :11:03.shot. If you look at the entire Middle East, it is a mess,
:11:03. > :11:07.everywhere. The Americans have failed if you read in the Middle
:11:07. > :11:17.East, I'm speaking about the Arab spring and all that, Iran,
:11:17. > :11:20.
:11:20. > :11:28.absolutely. The West has to do something. I do not think we should
:11:28. > :11:33.be too cynical. Peace is always worth a try. It is. This is not the
:11:33. > :11:37.Oslo agreements, 93, when all the people in charge of the Palestinian
:11:37. > :11:43.side were terrorists. Now we have Hamas and the Palestinian Authority,
:11:43. > :11:50.but it is interesting, because Hamas is alone. It has severed ties with
:11:50. > :11:55.Syria and Iran. They have put all their chips on Mohamed Morsi's
:11:55. > :12:03.Egypt, but he is not here any more. The Egyptian army has been
:12:03. > :12:08.destroying the tunnels that keep the Gaza Strip alive. Perhaps Hamas will
:12:08. > :12:12.be brought to the negotiating table. If you are sitting in Israel looking
:12:12. > :12:20.at what is going on around you, you may think that no one really good
:12:20. > :12:25.time to try to do something? I do not know. I think it is worth
:12:25. > :12:33.trying. John Kerry has been seven times? Six times. He is there in a
:12:33. > :12:38.way that Tony Blair was not. Given a similar task. I think he wants to
:12:38. > :12:42.make his name, but the Israel we are looking at is also very different.
:12:42. > :12:45.Not only is the Middle East very different from whenever we have been
:12:45. > :12:52.going on with this play that never ends, but Israel is in a very
:12:52. > :12:59.different session. It must know that the old way is gone. At the same
:12:59. > :13:05.time, there are newer things happening, like the EU decision.
:13:05. > :13:08.That decision to withdraw or withhold money, nearly �1 billion,
:13:08. > :13:14.for all the academic research and grounds that they used to hand over
:13:14. > :13:21.to Israel, because of the settlement issue. These are new pressures.
:13:21. > :13:25.Israel needs to have a new sense of reality. I will get home and home
:13:25. > :13:31.will be buzzing with lots of people who hate what I am saying, but
:13:31. > :13:38.Israel cannot carry on ignoring the changes around it, for its own sake.
:13:38. > :13:45.I entirely agree with you, Yasmin, but you still have a Prime Minister
:13:45. > :13:53.in Israel with a short-term vision. He has not changed. He has not
:13:53. > :13:59.improved, to look at the future, the next 15 years. No, but Israel has to
:13:59. > :14:04.be good at survival. They are unnerved by this EU decision. It is
:14:04. > :14:11.one thing for me not to buy an avocado, it is quite another thing
:14:11. > :14:16.when money is withheld for serious research. I wanted to say that
:14:16. > :14:20.Russia can intentionally, we must not forget, the Syrian situation is
:14:20. > :14:26.much more important for Russia in this particular part of the world.
:14:26. > :14:29.To gain something from Syria, they might give something in the Middle
:14:29. > :14:35.East process, for example, by influencing Hamas, by using their
:14:35. > :14:39.own powers. But the wider point is that to start the negotiations, we
:14:40. > :14:43.have seen so many over the last several decades, but the key
:14:43. > :14:49.questions are the questions that need to be negotiated at some point
:14:49. > :14:55.in time, the status of Jerusalem, access to water, the status of
:14:55. > :15:05.refugees. We have seen those negotiations at a much more advanced
:15:05. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:13.age, rather than now. I think this is a John Kerry initiative. It comes
:15:13. > :15:17.as some prominent women campaigners have received death and rape threats
:15:17. > :15:23.anonymously on Twitter. How should cyber bullies be dealt with? You
:15:23. > :15:29.have had a bit of this too, have a new? Yes, I seem to stand for
:15:29. > :15:37.anything French in the UK. Any pro-Europe, prorepublican, but that
:15:37. > :15:42.is OK. I don't get death threats. I had some very nasty, when I defended
:15:43. > :15:49.Roman Polanski from America, came all of this very unsavoury rape
:15:49. > :15:56.threats. But I think there is one thing. People should not be allowed
:15:56. > :16:04.to be anonymous. If it is their picture, Lycos, like journalists,
:16:04. > :16:07.we'd talk sometimes for publication with all our names, and we pay
:16:07. > :16:14.attention. We think twice before we tweet. They should do the same, and
:16:14. > :16:20.they would. They do in real life. One of the puzzles about this, if
:16:20. > :16:22.someone phoned you up anonymously, and put the phone down, but people
:16:22. > :16:30.engage on Twitter with people who are anonymous, who choose to be
:16:30. > :16:38.anonymous, . And its virtual for them, so it carries no consequences.
:16:38. > :16:43.This is not real, so we can play this fantasy of being someone else,
:16:43. > :16:47.and they should go and see a shrink. This is where they should go.
:16:47. > :16:52.think there are several layers of the story. It is about the means of
:16:52. > :16:57.technology, not the abuse itself. This was happening when we were all
:16:57. > :17:00.writing letters and it was possible to write letters. Now, the world a
:17:00. > :17:05.smaller, everyone is using that technology to do exactly what they
:17:05. > :17:08.want to. You have the opportunity to block the users who don't do the
:17:08. > :17:13.right thing, which I did in the past, but another thing is that if
:17:13. > :17:18.you ask anyone to become -- everyone to register under their own
:17:18. > :17:22.username, with a credit card or however, how else are you going to
:17:22. > :17:27.make sure they are real people? The other side of Twitter, the upside,
:17:27. > :17:29.which we have been discussing in the last year or two years, is about the
:17:29. > :17:35.Arab Spring, galvanising civil rights movements, all that kind of
:17:35. > :17:40.stuff stop how do you make that happen when everybody is not
:17:40. > :17:44.anonymous? Well then, what is the answer? Perhaps there is no answer,
:17:44. > :17:51.because if some people are just abusive... I think you are right. In
:17:51. > :17:54.my mind, this tragic death of the girl and the abuse are two separate
:17:54. > :18:00.things. They are sort of linked by technology and the modern world, but
:18:00. > :18:05.I think they are to be separate. We need to discuss them separately.
:18:05. > :18:08.About cyber bullying, it is exactly another form of bullying which
:18:08. > :18:10.happens. This girl could have been bullied at school, but the school
:18:11. > :18:18.has at least some kind of infrastructure to stop that, and
:18:18. > :18:23.that is why you cannot really stop it. But it is very different from
:18:23. > :18:27.school bullying, which is very bad. What happens is, I get a lot of it,
:18:27. > :18:30.so I don't look at it any more. And then I panicked, I wake up in the
:18:30. > :18:34.middle of the night, because somebody has said to me, how do you
:18:34. > :18:39.survive all this? And I think, I wake up thinking the whole world
:18:39. > :18:46.hates me. It becomes a kind of phobia. You could become agoraphobic
:18:46. > :18:50.because you don't know how many people are out there hating you. At
:18:50. > :18:55.one time, it was just e-mail, but I had to have police protection, I had
:18:55. > :18:59.to have those mirrors to look under my car. Because you are getting
:18:59. > :19:02.specific threats? Yes, and they even arrested some people. But that
:19:02. > :19:05.almost seems manageable now compatible this going on, and I
:19:05. > :19:12.think maybe we do need to have buttons, and I am very pleased that
:19:12. > :19:18.the companies have withdrawn advertising. From ask FM?Yes. And
:19:18. > :19:21.if any companies down responsible for being irresponsible...
:19:21. > :19:27.advertisers will go to another site. Anonymous questioning will
:19:27. > :19:31.spring up there immediately. Yes, so there needs to be a button, some
:19:31. > :19:35.kind of system. A 13-year-old girl was in a TV programme last week.
:19:35. > :19:42.Really, she should be Prime Minister. She had worked out a whole
:19:42. > :19:48.system of how you can have immediate response button, a red button.
:19:48. > :19:52.you block IP address. But even if you block somebody, you can still
:19:52. > :19:55.write it, you just don't see it. One of the interesting things is how few
:19:55. > :20:02.people actually follow the lunatics on Twitter, particularly. It doesn't
:20:02. > :20:07.get through to very many people, but it is still hurtful. You cannot stop
:20:07. > :20:15.it immediately. But you need to start doing something, regulating
:20:15. > :20:20.the whole procedure, regulating the whole system. International
:20:20. > :20:23.regulation, because a lot of those organisations are based elsewhere.
:20:23. > :20:29.You have to regulate internationally, on the UN level,
:20:29. > :20:33.and introduce legislation. But some of it is either fair comment, even
:20:33. > :20:38.if it's stupid. I mean come on this panel, you would get everybody on
:20:38. > :20:41.this panel, you are far right wing as you far left wingers, according
:20:41. > :20:46.to the prejudice of those regular tweets, so you just have to write it
:20:46. > :20:50.off will stop but it is personal, it is really wounding. Words can really
:20:50. > :20:56.win, and I am pleased I going to beat prosecutions. They have
:20:56. > :20:59.apparently got one of the guys who has been allegedly tweeting the
:20:59. > :21:04.historian Mary beer. They will be more prosecutions. The enemy at the
:21:04. > :21:09.moment is not these sites, but the libertarians who, every time we talk
:21:09. > :21:13.about regulation, talk about censorship and freedom and they have
:21:13. > :21:19.got to just stop and think about what kind of society we all want to
:21:19. > :21:24.live in. I take your point. These things can be trivial, and you can
:21:24. > :21:28.laugh at it sometimes. But here you have a case, the young, beautiful
:21:28. > :21:35.girl, 14 years old, was driven to committing suicide. That is quite
:21:35. > :21:40.serious. It is about education. I think it should be taught in school.
:21:40. > :21:45.You have got history lessons I don't know whether you should have how to
:21:45. > :21:48.behave on social network. Think it is a wider question about the values
:21:48. > :21:52.in society generally. I think bullying is a whole, someone is
:21:52. > :21:58.doing it, there must be something catastrophically wrong in the family
:21:58. > :22:02.of those, or the way they have been brought up, to allow the bullying to
:22:02. > :22:06.happen. But there is also a bigger question. Particularly in Britain, a
:22:06. > :22:09.lot of this has been directed at prominent women journalists. Male
:22:09. > :22:16.journalists get it, but obviously not rape threats. It is trying to
:22:16. > :22:19.get women to shut up, is that fair? Yes, to Exeter public space, if you
:22:19. > :22:25.like. But I think we would be wrong to think this is only directed nine
:22:25. > :22:28.men against women. There are many women out there who are also doing
:22:28. > :22:32.extremely nasty things. There is one website were a daughter of a friend
:22:32. > :22:38.of mine who already had eating problems sort of found this
:22:38. > :22:42.anorexics website and nearly died because she was so obsessed with
:22:42. > :22:47.this site which told her to eat less and less, how being an anorexic was
:22:47. > :22:54.the way to be. There is no education. It was then an
:22:54. > :22:59.attachment. But to pursue the libertarian argument, you said that
:22:59. > :23:02.maybe ludicrous information, but there is a lot of ludicrous
:23:02. > :23:06.information out there, so what are you going to do? Say you are not
:23:06. > :23:12.allowed to say this? Or save to children, look, there is a lot of
:23:12. > :23:17.rubbish out there, be careful. you have an eating disorder,
:23:17. > :23:19.education doesn't help. In Moscow, I was talking to NX bit about
:23:19. > :23:25.specifically the racial hatred and about intolerance the web and
:23:25. > :23:33.everything. The most widespread images that troubled Russian social
:23:33. > :23:36.networks specifically is pictures where you either have some sort of
:23:37. > :23:40.approval of something against people from the Caucasus, or those people,
:23:40. > :23:47.those things generate hundreds of thousands of shares, likes all I
:23:47. > :23:52.kind of thing. There is something wrong with this... I think the
:23:52. > :23:58.lesson about your behaviour online and about tolerance, you need to be
:23:58. > :24:02.tolerant irrespective of where you are. But you have to behave online
:24:02. > :24:05.the same as you do in real life. you are anonymous, you can do you
:24:05. > :24:08.like, unless somebody is going to take the time to find out.
:24:08. > :24:15.Road-macro also, have you ever tried, because I have, to take
:24:15. > :24:20.something out of YouTube or out of the infinite, something that you
:24:20. > :24:24.haven't authorised? It is impossible. Organisations just pass
:24:24. > :24:32.the buck. It is based somewhere else. Oh, we have no authority. They
:24:32. > :24:37.don't reply. You threaten them, and they say, they send an automated
:24:37. > :24:40.answer. It is just the far west, the wild West. The wild West, but also
:24:40. > :24:44.many of these companies seem to do quite well, but they are not
:24:44. > :24:52.actually run in the same way as Apple or a big company. They are
:24:52. > :24:58.actually quite small. There is space there for a lot of people to make
:24:58. > :25:05.money as easy as picking up fruit from trees. It is a new world. We
:25:05. > :25:12.are just learning how to deal with it, not only the kids, but thinkers
:25:12. > :25:17.and all of that. Things have to be really speeded up. Bullying has been
:25:17. > :25:22.there before technology and will be at the technology. I remember 55
:25:22. > :25:26.years ago at school, children, of five or six years old, a gang of
:25:27. > :25:33.children almost drove a child to the point of insanity. He had to go to