:00:00. > :00:00.I will be back with a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour.
:00:00. > :00:25.Now, dateline London with Gavin Esler.
:00:25. > :00:31.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Countries divided between
:00:31. > :00:32.themselves at the G20 and within themselves at home over Syria. The
:00:32. > :00:36.election which could determine election which could determine the
:00:36. > :00:43.future shape not just of Germany, but also the EU. And the BBC's
:00:43. > :00:47.Dmitry Shishkin BBC Global News. are Agnes Poirier of Marianne.
:00:47. > :00:57.divided over what to do over Syria, Catherine Mayer of Time magazine.
:00:57. > :01:00.divided over what to do over Syria, specifically the US and Russia,
:01:00. > :01:00.remain divided at the G20. remain divided at the G20.
:01:00. > :01:06.But countries are opinion in Britain and the US
:01:06. > :01:14.brought against intervening while they leaders remain in favour.
:01:14. > :01:19.accepts? That is certainly what many accepts? That is certainly what many
:01:19. > :01:31.Putin is prepared to accept. Yes and no. I think he would never accept
:01:32. > :01:35.the fact he would sign on the dotted line, saying, let the killing
:01:35. > :01:40.continue, but he would only like to go through the security council.
:01:40. > :01:44.That is what he has been applying to lots of situation in the past. Do
:01:44. > :01:49.you think that Western countries, like Britain, have blown it
:01:49. > :01:59.diplomatically by assisting —— insisting Assad cannot be part of
:01:59. > :02:01.the solution? Rumack —— yesterday, during the press conference, you
:02:01. > :02:04.could could see there is a stark
:02:04. > :02:10.difference between the press conferences and the tone of the
:02:10. > :02:15.psychologically and physically. He psychologically and physically. He
:02:15. > :02:22.was feeling as if he got more from that summer, rather than anyone
:02:22. > :02:27.else. Whereas, Obama looked a bit dejected and tired, a little bit out
:02:27. > :02:35.of sorts. The general population feeling in Russia is to support the
:02:35. > :02:39.President. The comparison is being drawn with other countries, and
:02:39. > :02:45.people in Russia are supporting something, the majority, through the
:02:45. > :02:51.state channels and the propaganda on the major GV and other sources, show
:02:51. > :02:54.that Putin is sticking to the norms of international law. Unlike other
:02:54. > :02:57.countries which would like the world of the G20, it is kind of
:02:57. > :03:07.deviate. In the coverage all around the world of the G20, it is kind of
:03:07. > :03:10.missing the point, it is not set up to solve Syria. It was effectively
:03:10. > :03:21.there. Why would we expected to set up to improve the world economy,
:03:21. > :03:21.produce anything? Precisely. Before that, we had been talking about
:03:21. > :03:35.whether the Edward Snowden situation would have harmed the agenda or not.
:03:35. > :03:40.But it is not about that. Where do you think this leaves Francois
:03:40. > :03:47.Hollande? If countries are divided among themselves, it is also true in
:03:47. > :03:54.France, he cannot go it alone. He will not, without the US. Isn't ——
:03:54. > :03:55.it is interesting. There was a debate in the French Parliament but
:03:55. > :03:58.they did not get to vote on it. And they did not get to vote on it. And
:03:58. > :04:07.the French are extremely split, the the French are extremely split, the
:04:07. > :04:10.question is not like Libya, and Francois Hollande is in a very
:04:10. > :04:16.difficult situation. It is brought about by the British Parliament
:04:16. > :04:23.because just a week ago, everyone was so gung ho, expecting strikes in
:04:23. > :04:28.the next 48 hours. And then, David Cameron did something he did not
:04:28. > :04:33.need to, to seek the approval of Parliament, he did not get it, he
:04:33. > :04:40.took it rather badly and then, even Obama, who is at heart an
:04:40. > :04:44.isolationist, did not need to seek the approval of Congress, but he
:04:44. > :04:45.did, probably because of what David Cameron did. And now, Francois
:04:45. > :04:51.Hollande just said yesterday at the Hollande just said yesterday at the
:04:51. > :05:00.G20 that he was going to await the UN inspectors' results. So now, what
:05:00. > :05:07.are we going to do? Even Obama did not look very comfortable yesterday.
:05:07. > :05:11.John Kerry making the case for war, and
:05:11. > :05:14.John Kerry making the case for war, professorial, there are
:05:14. > :05:14.personalities and play but it sounded like a different degree of
:05:14. > :05:21.personalities and play but it enthusiasm.
:05:21. > :05:29.go back to the UN, but you are saying Putin wants to go via the UN
:05:29. > :05:35.route. He was mentioning something about waiting until the report
:05:35. > :05:38.the UN inspectors... But that is going to say yes.
:05:38. > :05:44.the UN inspectors... But that is is leaving a little
:05:44. > :05:48.are presented to the world and they are presented to the world and they
:05:49. > :05:57.have signed off, it would be really hard for him to continue. As Obama
:05:57. > :05:59.got the political will or are they waiting for him to make a mistake
:05:59. > :06:03.you make is your sense that the US you make is your sense that the US
:06:03. > :06:07.more broadly, the politicians will see this is such an important
:06:07. > :06:08.matter, they are prepared to fall in behind the President? I don't think
:06:08. > :06:13.so. You described this at the so. You described this at the
:06:13. > :06:16.about nations divided in about nations divided
:06:16. > :06:19.themselves, and obviously, that is themselves, and obviously, that is
:06:19. > :06:23.the great narrative of American politics, since Obama's election and
:06:23. > :06:29.before, this polarisation in before, this polarisation in
:06:29. > :06:33.America. And it goes down to the granular politics of the way that
:06:33. > :06:42.Congress works, or does not work. And so, this is part of the problem.
:06:42. > :06:48.Cameron opened this huge Pandora's ox —— box by presenting this as
:06:48. > :06:50.something he consulted on, because there is no real possibility of
:06:50. > :06:53.getting what looks like inventing unity, although there are very
:06:53. > :06:56.slender possibilities in most slender possibilities in most
:06:56. > :07:02.parliaments and governments and legislatures of the world. So you
:07:02. > :07:07.have a real problem here. I think it is interesting and horrible what is
:07:07. > :07:11.going on, because this is the continuation of that narrative that
:07:11. > :07:17.started with Iraq and Afghanistan, the leaching away of credibility of
:07:17. > :07:22.the political classes. Now, coming to a different version of that
:07:22. > :07:37.narrative, which is the actual resulting impotence, so you have
:07:37. > :07:39.narrative, which is the actual in power, but obviously, the price
:07:39. > :07:58.President, the guy who came into these terrible images
:07:58. > :08:01.President, the guy who came into power talking about an clenching
:08:01. > :08:05.fists, who is now at the mercy of the different parts of his
:08:05. > :08:07.legislature and different legislature and different
:08:07. > :08:11.governments around the world and no one really knows how this will play
:08:11. > :08:16.out. There is this horrible vacuum, certainly, the answer is not the UN.
:08:16. > :08:18.If part of this story in the West at least is the importance of fostering
:08:18. > :08:23.democracy in the Arab world and democracy in the Arab world and the
:08:23. > :08:27.in Syria, you have to look at in Syria, you have to look at
:08:27. > :08:33.are broadly against it. That is just are broadly against it. That is just
:08:33. > :08:36.the waiters. —— you have to look at democracy at home. That is just the
:08:36. > :08:39.way it is. We have not actually put way it is. We have not actually put
:08:39. > :08:45.this to a vote, we have not had a party supporting this policy
:08:45. > :08:47.standing against another one who does not supported, all you have is
:08:47. > :08:52.an opinion poll. But you have an opinion poll. But you have
:08:52. > :08:55.representatives in the House of Commons reflecting what they believe
:08:55. > :09:01.should not do it. We can either look should not do it. We can either look
:09:01. > :09:07.at the figures and say, that's it, end of discussion, that is the way
:09:07. > :09:12.they voted. But they have not voted in favour of anything. Not any kind
:09:12. > :09:17.of strategy. The opposition never give them a strategy which they
:09:17. > :09:20.could support. The outlining fact is that we have had a chemical weapons
:09:20. > :09:23.attack, which has killed at least 1500 people in Syria, which you
:09:23. > :09:28.would imagine, would normally get an would imagine, would normally get an
:09:28. > :09:35.international response, and we are unable to provide it. There is a
:09:35. > :09:39.danger of lapsing into a degree of danger of lapsing into
:09:39. > :09:55.response. You might normally impotence. You said
:09:55. > :09:57.that the literal leaders and thinking their fates of morality are
:09:57. > :10:04.based on what they think are in their best interest. Nobody in
:10:04. > :10:08.country, or from people like you and me, even knows where Halabja is.
:10:08. > :10:08.They are not looking at it and saying, we are a bit inconsistent.
:10:08. > :10:17.there is a very significant People are
:10:17. > :10:20.there is a very significant pessimistic stand in Democratic
:10:20. > :10:23.politics at the moment, not just in Britain but in a lot of places
:10:23. > :10:26.around the world. I think that is true. It is making it exceptionally
:10:26. > :10:30.difficult to make interventions on difficult to make interventions on
:10:30. > :10:38.the world stage that actually are required. If you want to look for
:10:38. > :10:40.common ground in these situation where they say there is common
:10:40. > :10:43.ground between Putin and Kamran and ground between Putin and Kamran and
:10:43. > :10:49.Obama, what you are actually finding is that the real common ground is
:10:49. > :10:50.that able really do not necessarily want Assad to go. That is the
:10:50. > :10:57.problem. You mean they want him to problem. You mean they want him to
:10:57. > :11:05.go on G20 dream that no, it is that what they cannot cop with is what
:11:05. > :11:09.the aftermath would be. There is Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Libya was
:11:09. > :11:16.this UN backed this UN backed mission, quite
:11:16. > :11:21.successful, and it looked, Obama looked at it, thinking, great! Look
:11:21. > :11:25.at today's Libya, it is a bit at today's Libya, it is a bit
:11:25. > :11:29.frightening. The public opinion, frightening. The public opinion, I
:11:29. > :11:37.guess, is quite frightened to go in, because it is about, what is the
:11:37. > :11:44.plan? Or what is the end of the plan? There is a strange word, we
:11:44. > :11:50.are talking about international law, I do not think we should mix
:11:50. > :11:51.morality with it anyway. So we go there, we strive for a couple of
:11:51. > :11:57.days, someone else will have to pay days, someone else will have to pay
:11:57. > :12:07.for it because we cannot afford it, and then what? Only 5% of the rebels
:12:07. > :12:14.are Al—Qaeda, we need more than that,
:12:14. > :12:17.scary thought. The other comment, or alleged, by someone close to Mr
:12:17. > :12:22.island that nobody pays attention Putin is that Britain is a small
:12:22. > :12:31.island that nobody pays attention to. Apart from Chelsea!Is that how
:12:31. > :12:38.Russia... I mean, Russia are a large country that everyone pays to, but
:12:38. > :12:46.also divided Europe, in a pact with the Nazis. I am not asking you to
:12:46. > :12:47.defend all of Russian history! I am just reading the wonderful book
:12:47. > :12:57.about the Soviet times in about the Soviet times in
:12:57. > :13:02.Afghanistan. The bickering between the UK and czarist Russia, it goes
:13:02. > :13:10.back for a long time. And Russians still remember the Crimean War,
:13:10. > :13:11.obviously. We can discuss the charge of the light Brigade and all that
:13:11. > :13:17.kind of stuff, but we want. One of kind of stuff, but we want. One of
:13:17. > :13:19.the really important issues is that Russia, Russian officials, and I am
:13:19. > :13:26.not saying this has been a fact, not saying this has been a fact,
:13:26. > :13:31.they retracted the comments and said this has never happened, that
:13:31. > :13:38.anyway, I think Russia never lost the opportunity to just pass a small
:13:38. > :13:44.joke on one country or another. Being a small island geographically,
:13:44. > :13:45.it is correct, Britain is a small part of somewhere in the North
:13:45. > :13:48.Atlantic. Russia is a country Atlantic. Russia is a country
:13:48. > :13:51.spending around nine times its own... I think one
:13:51. > :13:54.spending around nine times its question about the position of
:13:54. > :14:00.international law in countries, I think that if we
:14:00. > :14:02.remember, let's just forget that Russia has nuclear weapons were
:14:02. > :14:07.second and let's go back to the early 1990s, when
:14:07. > :14:15.similar situation, I think that waging a cruel war in Chechnya.
:14:15. > :14:17.similar situation, I think that lutein is defending the right ——
:14:17. > :14:34.Putin lutein is defending the right ——
:14:34. > :14:38.extrapolating the potential warming Russia doing the same thing.
:14:38. > :14:44.extrapolating the potential warming case, a small island that nobody
:14:44. > :14:46.pays attention to, do you think one of the results in the House of
:14:46. > :15:03.Commons is that the body does pay much attention to what written
:15:03. > :15:05.thinks? —— Britain. We could either be flippant about this and talk
:15:05. > :15:11.about how many British billionaires choose to buy up chunks of Moscow,
:15:11. > :15:14.feeds the tabloids. Implement feeds the tabloids. Implement
:15:14. > :15:16.consists of all kinds of things, but one important thing, I think,
:15:16. > :15:19.Britain has taken itself out of the Britain has taken itself out of the
:15:19. > :15:22.equation should be the case that the Americans and the French and maybe
:15:22. > :15:25.some others do take action. We can't be there hoping to be part of that
:15:25. > :15:31.action and helping to guide it. action and helping to guide it. I
:15:31. > :15:37.mean a domain you should have influence, but it is not
:15:37. > :15:42.catastrophic or anything, it just makes life difficult. I think in the
:15:42. > :15:45.same way, it is how Britain is in Europe. We have a lot of influence,
:15:45. > :15:53.but not as much as we could have if we properly engaged. One thing we
:15:53. > :15:54.should remember goes back to when the Foreign Secretary suggested that
:15:54. > :16:00.Russia had needs to changes Russia had needs to changes
:16:00. > :16:03.constitution to get Russians extradited back to Britain, and that
:16:03. > :16:08.was greeted with extreme hostility back in Russia, with extremist
:16:08. > :16:09.elected, and the reaction that Britain is no longer an empire which
:16:09. > :16:15.rules lots and lots of parts of the rules lots and lots of parts of the
:16:15. > :16:20.world. But this is the sort of thing that will now be said to America.
:16:20. > :16:24.Europe point. In many ways, the Europe point. In many ways,
:16:24. > :16:26.future of Germany is at the future future of Germany is at the
:16:26. > :16:31.that Angela Merkel is returned of Europe. If opinion
:16:31. > :16:32.that Angela Merkel is returned either German people, and even if
:16:32. > :16:38.the precise nature of her coalition is in some doubt, what will it mean
:16:38. > :16:39.for the Eurozone? And why should people outside Germany care about
:16:39. > :16:49.this? Well, in a funny way, they shouldn't, because... Wipe , well,
:16:49. > :16:58.we will move on ! Germany is in ways the measure of the Eurozone at
:16:58. > :17:02.this point. Angela Merkel has been in power for eight years. She is
:17:02. > :17:13.about to possibly be re—elected again. The thing that Germany is all
:17:13. > :17:18.about, really, is not doing very much and not changing very much. The
:17:18. > :17:27.whole German system and the reason that Angela Merkel, even though she
:17:27. > :17:34.has at the moment, 69% of German votes, their party block has a 15 to
:17:34. > :17:39.rival. Despite that, there is a real rival. Despite that, there is a real
:17:39. > :17:41.chance she might not get back in, because the whole German system was
:17:41. > :17:47.designed in the aftermath of World War II. It was designed to stop
:17:47. > :17:51.power being concentrated anywhere, so it is a system full of checks and
:17:51. > :17:54.balances. You have constitutional court, the power in the state
:17:54. > :18:02.parliaments, an electoral system that never returns a big majority.
:18:02. > :18:05.And so, her first government, which was a grand coalition, there were
:18:05. > :18:12.something like 90 days of negotiations at then election. What
:18:12. > :18:16.Germany is all about is not allowing big and rapid change, which is also
:18:16. > :18:21.in European political terms, one of the reasons everyone is always
:18:21. > :18:24.getting impatient with Germany. Where is the big bazooka? Where is
:18:24. > :18:28.this? Where is that? They cannot act that fast. Merkel, one of the reason
:18:28. > :18:31.she is so popular is actually that fast. Merkel, one of the reason
:18:31. > :18:39.because she has done really very little, but she has , what she has
:18:39. > :18:43.done she has brought people along with air. And she has done it
:18:43. > :18:48.consistently. She has done what she said she worked. Exactly. In that
:18:48. > :18:54.incredibly rare in politics authenticity and consistency that is
:18:54. > :18:55.incredibly rare in politics nowadays. In terms of whether people
:18:55. > :19:09.they were very sceptical of four she female
:19:09. > :19:14.they were very sceptical of four she was elected. Now, you sense even
:19:14. > :19:16.among people who are not a natural supporters, an extraordinary pride
:19:16. > :19:20.in having this female leader, and that is one reason they want to keep
:19:20. > :19:27.it there. When we look at what has just happened in the stray Lear, ——
:19:27. > :19:33.Australia, why should we care? I don't know what extent we should
:19:33. > :19:37.care? But if you want to see a woman in power cut somewhere, she is the
:19:37. > :19:41.best of them. The French are playing particular example to this. Well,
:19:41. > :19:44.Francois Hollande when he was elected had the whole European plan
:19:44. > :19:48.laid out. The left was going to go laid out. The left was going to go
:19:48. > :19:54.back in power in Italy. Merkel was going to be ousted, obviously, and
:19:54. > :20:02.David Cameron had only two years to go and then the Labour Party would
:20:02. > :20:08.be back. Is how is that going? ! Terribly badly, because Berlusconi
:20:08. > :20:12.is holding the whole Italian class, and that is not the parliament you
:20:12. > :20:17.really wish to be seeing all stop Merkel is in all probability going
:20:17. > :20:22.to be back. And I don't think Ed Miliband has any Prime Minister real
:20:22. > :20:23.future will stop so it is pretty bad for Francois Hollande, and also
:20:23. > :20:28.always takes at least years for the always takes at least years for the
:20:28. > :20:34.French and the German head of state to actually bond. Sarkozy and Merkel
:20:34. > :20:38.beard in the end, but only because of the Euro crisis. They did not
:20:38. > :20:39.like each other. But they did not like Bill is going even more. That
:20:39. > :20:53.is true ! That is interesting, of communication between their work
:20:53. > :20:57.not the issue, Merkel is going to with Downing Street saying this
:20:57. > :21:08.not the issue, Merkel is going to help reform the EU. The British
:21:08. > :21:16.She played against Cameroon, and laughing their heads
:21:16. > :21:21.She played against Cameroon, and Holland against Cameron. The results
:21:21. > :21:25.raise Ackley what she wanted for Holland against Cameron. The results
:21:26. > :21:26.raise Ackley what she wanted for Germany. She never negotiates, she
:21:26. > :21:34.does her thing, she is quite does her thing, she is quite
:21:34. > :21:39.mysterious. Cameron should not forget about Merkel machine is never
:21:39. > :21:43.going to start with Britain on Europe. Whoever is Prime Minister,
:21:43. > :21:45.should we pay a lot of attention to what happened in Germany are not?
:21:45. > :21:48.Yes, I think we should be an Yes, I think we should be an
:21:48. > :21:53.enormous amount of attention. But again, it may not be the precise
:21:53. > :21:57.detail of the election result. I do find it unimaginable that a
:21:58. > :22:00.politician who will command as much popular support as Angela Merkel
:22:00. > :22:01.will not end up being Chancellor, because if you have anything else
:22:01. > :22:06.happen, it will be a very big happen, it will be a very big
:22:06. > :22:09.problem. That is clearly what they want. But is in the mood of the
:22:09. > :22:10.Germans themselves which is Germans themselves which
:22:10. > :22:14.incredibly important to us. Not just incredibly important to us. Not just
:22:14. > :22:20.because Cameron hopes to do things but Merkel, but because whatever
:22:20. > :22:26.Britain hopes to do, Germany will be a big force in deciding or not we
:22:26. > :22:31.can do it. There is something else as well. When we talk about what is
:22:31. > :22:36.going on in Syria and so on, we don't talk about what the German
:22:36. > :22:40.attitude is. Germany is arguably the most powerful country in Europe, and
:22:40. > :22:44.Europe has a significant say in foreign policy terms. This is
:22:44. > :22:46.continuously the responsibility continuously the responsibility that
:22:46. > :22:53.does not get taken responsibility for. We used to say about Japan, but
:22:53. > :22:59.we do kind of wonder at what point Germany is going to assume the
:22:59. > :23:02.responsibility it should. Dmitry? Moving on, over the last two years,
:23:03. > :23:07.Europe as we know it, the Euro, and Europe as we know it, the Euro, and
:23:07. > :23:12.Estonia has just joined the European currency, so I think that where I am
:23:12. > :23:19.news articles about the German coming from, I never read a
:23:19. > :23:22.news articles about the German election generally. That may be a
:23:23. > :23:26.good thing that means the country just ploughs away, does its thing,
:23:26. > :23:36.once this obstacle has passed, we Union a more coherent structure
:23:36. > :23:43.can look at making the European Union a more coherent structure
:23:43. > :23:46.moving forward. Talking about more coherent structures, the past year
:23:46. > :23:52.has seen the BBC real from a series of self inflicted wounds — the Jimmy
:23:52. > :23:56.Savile scandal, and now a row about excessive payoffs to former
:23:56. > :23:58.managers. A former director—general has accused the governing body of
:23:58. > :24:00.misleading Parliament. A couple misleading Parliament. A couple of
:24:00. > :24:05.minutes on this. Have you any idea what is going on? Yes, I think I
:24:05. > :24:10.have a rough idea, and I think Mark Thompson is broadly right, but I
:24:10. > :24:14.think we should place this in some kind of limited context. This is
:24:14. > :24:18.part of what happens when your business elite and your top elite
:24:18. > :24:23.actually detaches itself in which the rest of society lives. Some
:24:23. > :24:26.organisations, the BBC being one, actually belongs to both bits,
:24:26. > :24:29.unlike a bank or something. It forgot that in those terms it
:24:29. > :24:35.belonged to both bits and is being hammered for it. I think it is
:24:35. > :24:40.potentially really dangerous. One of the things all of the topics we had
:24:40. > :24:45.been discussing, reinforce the importance of the BBC's existence.
:24:45. > :24:50.Coming from the print sector, you look at the turbulence in
:24:50. > :24:54.journalism, and you want to know where the journalism funding is
:24:54. > :24:57.going to come from to report be hard stuff. The BBC is an incredibly
:24:57. > :24:58.important institution, not just for important institution, not just for
:24:58. > :25:02.Britain but for the whole world at Britain but for the whole world at
:25:02. > :25:03.under increasing threat from all this point. It is also one that is
:25:03. > :25:07.under increasing threat from all sorts of people who would like to
:25:07. > :25:11.view, whatever is being done wrong be impeccable. From that point
:25:11. > :25:15.view, whatever is being done wrong must be sorted out. There needs
:25:15. > :25:16.view, whatever is being done wrong be transparency. Dmitry? I can't
:25:16. > :25:28.question lots of things happening in agree more. Or someone who
:25:28. > :25:30.that vessel on power. I understand about redundancy packages, but I do
:25:30. > :25:31.not understand why you would someone over the contractual
:25:31. > :25:36.obligation. That is one think you would be extremely
:25:36. > :25:42.going on to people who are on modest going on to people who are on modest
:25:42. > :25:45.salaries. And who are paying for it. Precisely, or even within the BBC.
:25:45. > :25:49.People who are just Precisely, or even within the BBC.
:25:49. > :25:56.that We will find out Monday when this
:25:56. > :25:59.meeting takes place. This will be much watched in this building, I
:26:00. > :26:02.suspect. I couldn't agree more with Catherine, because this programme is
:26:02. > :26:06.watched from the other side of the world, so it is very much an English
:26:06. > :26:10.affair, except, two big payoffs. BBC affair, except, two big payoffs. BBC
:26:10. > :26:16.executives could always give it back executives could always give it back
:26:16. > :26:23.! Why not? Some of them did. Some of them did in the first place. The BBC
:26:23. > :26:28.is important to the world, actually, and so, just give back the money.
:26:28. > :26:31.Give back the money ! OK. That is it for us this week. We're back next
:26:31. > :26:39.week at the same time. You can comment on twitter with our hat tag.
:26:39. > :26:41.—— hashtag.