:00:00. > :00:35.Hello and welcome to Dateline. Are we at a turning point in British
:00:35. > :00:38.politics? Al—Shabab and perhaps we at a turning point in British
:00:38. > :00:43.new dawn in relations between Iran and the West. My guests today are an
:00:43. > :01:06.arrest of members of Golden Dawn and the West. My guests today are an
:01:06. > :01:12.arrest of members of Golden Dawn This is the moment that Golden Dawn
:01:12. > :01:29.has become more of a nuisance. The This is the moment that Golden Dawn
:01:29. > :01:34.Greek parliament. It has spread This is the moment that Golden Dawn
:01:34. > :01:37.tentacles within society. It is This is the moment that Golden Dawn
:01:37. > :01:42.possible to ban a political party in Greece, the government has had the
:01:42. > :01:48.Supreme Court declared Golden Dawn party criminal organisation. This is
:01:48. > :01:52.a hugely welcome development, but how far will this probe and purge
:01:52. > :02:01.go? I will be surprised if we see a real purge of the police. Also,
:02:01. > :02:04.go? I will be surprised if we see a rehabilitation of the less nasty
:02:04. > :02:06.elements of Golden Dawn and an assimilation of the far right into
:02:06. > :02:13.what is known as a constitutional spectrum. What do you make of the
:02:13. > :02:18.argument, whatever you make of the people arrested, they are clearly
:02:18. > :02:22.popular with the people who voted for them? They are. But we have
:02:22. > :02:29.popular with the people who voted seen thousands of people turning out
:02:29. > :02:36.There were about 250 people. Golden Dawn have done well in the polls,
:02:36. > :02:40.the vote for them does have a hard far right corner, but a lot of that
:02:40. > :02:47.is because they present themselves as an anti—systemic party. People
:02:47. > :02:52.—— the main parties in Greece. Golden Dawn party Matt last week and
:02:52. > :02:57.corruption scandals? It is to do said, if we are a criminal, what
:02:57. > :03:01.corruption scandals? It is to do with the collapse of faith in the
:03:01. > :03:03.political system. Ed Miliband change with the collapse of faith in the
:03:04. > :03:05.political system. Ed Miliband change the political weather this week
:03:05. > :03:13.froze prices. Some use the dreaded he suggested big energy companies
:03:13. > :03:16.froze prices. Some use the dreaded word, socialism, but has Ed Miliband
:03:17. > :03:20.tapped into something quite subtle? An acceptance you cannot change
:03:20. > :03:27.tapped into something quite subtle? market, but you can perhaps regulate
:03:27. > :03:36.the 1970s, it will be a disaster and it. How do you see this? Some people
:03:36. > :03:38.the 1970s, it will be a disaster and you cannot make it work. In the
:03:38. > :03:43.1970s it was the idea of the trade unions were really running things,
:03:43. > :03:48.nobody is suggesting nationalising the energy companies or any of the
:03:48. > :03:53.big, dysfunctional bits of the market. Quite the opposite. Breaking
:03:53. > :03:58.them up to make competition more healthy. There has been such a mood
:03:58. > :04:03.against big, international corporate organisations which do not belong in
:04:03. > :04:06.any one company, do not pay taxes, do not have any social obligations
:04:06. > :04:13.in the country they are based. Labour had said we think subsidies
:04:13. > :04:19.should go to the small businesses. We should regulate much more firmly
:04:19. > :04:22.these out—of—control corporations, the Public accounts committee has
:04:22. > :04:30.exposed time and time again what these corporations are up to. It is
:04:30. > :04:33.temporary freeze while they set dysfunctional cartel of companies
:04:33. > :04:39.and forcing them to break up so dysfunctional cartel of companies
:04:39. > :04:43.are not generating energy, selling it to themselves at secret prices
:04:43. > :04:47.and no one can really see what their profits are. They have declared
:04:47. > :04:51.profits of 4 billion a year at a time when people's energy bills
:04:51. > :04:58.profits of 4 billion a year at a gone up. There is an idea behind it.
:04:58. > :05:03.It is certainly, with many people, spectrum people realise energy bills
:05:04. > :05:09.are too high. Something needs to give. Ed Miliband has discovered and
:05:09. > :05:22.dropping below what is acceptable. the standard of living sinking and
:05:22. > :05:22.dropping below what is acceptable. He is seen as a champion for the
:05:22. > :05:34.to think how can we control this He is seen as a champion for the
:05:34. > :05:43.be rattled about it. The reaction of be rattled about it. The reaction of
:05:43. > :05:45.Secretary of Education admitted be rattled about it. The reaction of
:05:45. > :05:51.would take these reactions with be rattled about it. The reaction of
:05:51. > :05:59.temporary freeze, where we would continue with this inexorable rise
:05:59. > :06:09.of cost of living and not seem to be on the side of those who are hurting
:06:09. > :06:21.populist, it is popular. It made me was Ronald Reagan, are you better
:06:21. > :06:25.Theodore Roosevelt taking on the big trusts, the manufacturers of big
:06:25. > :06:30.wealth. That is a very popular thing to do in this country, given the
:06:30. > :06:35.failure of the banks and the other big countries —— companies which do
:06:35. > :06:40.not seem to be paying tax. There is a lot of political rhetoric which
:06:40. > :06:42.can be made here. Occupy Wall Street was a big phenomenon. In addition to
:06:43. > :06:48.those American politicians, the was a big phenomenon. In addition to
:06:48. > :06:56.who just won the primary to be mayor successful under Mayor Bloomberg.
:06:56. > :07:04.All of the benefits have not gone to am looking after the little guys. I
:07:04. > :07:12.am looking at minimum wage for people in New York, I'm going to
:07:12. > :07:14.romped home in the New York primary. People are looking at him as a
:07:14. > :07:21.harbinger of where politics may People are looking at him as a
:07:21. > :07:25.been since 2009 have gone virtually The benefits of the growth there has
:07:25. > :07:27.been since 2009 have gone virtually to the top 1% in the US. 30% have
:07:27. > :07:36.in this country as well with the to the top 1% in the US. 30% have
:07:36. > :07:39.in this country as well with the banks being very unpopular. There is
:07:39. > :07:47.something which can be done with targeted populism by the Labour
:07:47. > :07:50.Party. The Tories are meeting for their conference from now and they
:07:50. > :08:05.have been living —— hearing a lot this morning about the marriage
:08:05. > :08:08.have been living —— hearing a lot I thought the key moment in Ed
:08:08. > :08:13.Miliband's speech was the moment he globalisation which has been the
:08:13. > :08:18.real issue for the left. He said David Cameron talks about a global
:08:18. > :08:22.race, but we cannot win a race to the bottom. He followed it up with
:08:22. > :08:28.what sounded like policy tinkering when I first listened, but actually
:08:28. > :08:32.quite radical suggestions about regulating the markets, resetting
:08:32. > :08:38.the markets in a different way. Reporting wages here, things that
:08:38. > :08:41.will make a difference. You're on your way to Manchester for the
:08:41. > :08:45.Conservative party conference. Presumably there will be a lot of
:08:45. > :08:51.interesting rabbit pulled out of he not, the recovery is happening?
:08:51. > :08:58.Hold on, this is not the try to he not, the recovery is happening?
:08:58. > :09:03.—— time to change courses. The economy has started to kick upwards.
:09:03. > :09:09.While Labour can say that was three wasted years, and you get writers in
:09:09. > :09:17.the Financial Times saying the same inherited. That is quite difficult
:09:17. > :09:22.to put across to an electorate. inherited. That is quite difficult
:09:22. > :09:24.they see the economy grow, probably quite fast next year, when you have
:09:24. > :09:31.been in that big debt you can't quite fast next year, when you have
:09:31. > :09:35.quite a jump upwards. That will quite fast next year, when you have
:09:35. > :09:43.election. Can Labour persuade the responsible and will produce a more
:09:43. > :09:46.Against David Cameron saying, they responsible kind of capitalism.
:09:46. > :09:54.truth about the economy has not are the ones who crashed the car in
:09:54. > :10:13.the effect of the economy growing. filtered down to a huge number
:10:13. > :10:17.the effect of the economy growing. Not enough people have felt it.
:10:17. > :10:18.the effect of the economy growing. cost of living has outpaced anything
:10:19. > :10:26.the growing economy might provide so far. Saying the economy is growing
:10:26. > :10:32.while the rest of the company is still —— country is still suffering.
:10:32. > :10:35.A couple of conservative columnists have suggested the question for
:10:35. > :10:40.David Cameron is, does he position the party to take on UKIP, be seen
:10:40. > :10:45.to move to the right, or can he the party to take on UKIP, be seen
:10:45. > :10:48.a Ed Miliband and socialism as a move to the left and try and occupy
:10:48. > :10:54.the centre ground? He must make move to the left and try and occupy
:10:54. > :11:02.clear. I think his threat is from UKIP. I do not see it any other
:11:02. > :11:03.clear. I think his threat is from That is who has been meet —— making
:11:03. > :11:12.the Tories nervous for the last year. And it is the party that could
:11:12. > :11:16.cost them seats. Exactly. He will try to occupy as much of the centre
:11:16. > :11:23.as possible while also holding off UKIP, using immigration and the
:11:23. > :11:29.traditional ways that people know to mollify the right. UKIP probably
:11:29. > :11:35.If people feel it, that growth is will not be mollified very easily.
:11:35. > :11:41.If people feel it, that growth is happening, then they may defeat
:11:41. > :11:43.UKIP. It is not about left and right, it is about right and wrong
:11:43. > :11:53.yesterday's dichotomy. This is what right, it is about right and wrong
:11:53. > :12:02.of men, within and children in a terrorism look like on the 21st
:12:02. > :12:02.of men, within and children in a shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab
:12:03. > :12:09.attack in Kenya to be seen as a shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab
:12:09. > :12:13.terrorists who know their cause shopping centre. Is the Al—Shabab
:12:13. > :12:28.pointless? Clearly Al—Qaeda and this in the end just utterly futile?
:12:28. > :12:35.Before I am drawn into what it all means, I am looking at the failure
:12:35. > :12:53.They know they are in neighbouring reluctant to pronounce a larger
:12:53. > :12:57.meaning to what Al—Shabab means reluctant to pronounce a larger
:12:57. > :13:02.the rest of the world. Some people say they are desperate and are
:13:02. > :13:08.losing in Somalia. That is why they neighbouring countries, which makes
:13:08. > :13:13.it more important for Kenya to be on watch. I do not think it means a
:13:13. > :13:26.larger threat to the west, but I am surprised this attack had a soft ——
:13:26. > :13:31.consumers congregate. I am surprised it has not happened in London,
:13:31. > :13:35.perhaps it is due to security forces here, but it is a reminder we have
:13:35. > :13:39.to be on the lookout for a likely event. Obviously security was not
:13:40. > :13:50.adequate security in every soft target like a shopping centre? It
:13:50. > :14:00.was not just any shopping centre, it Nairobi. As we all know, terrorism
:14:00. > :14:08.is a horrible theatre. It is a way Nairobi. As we all know, terrorism
:14:08. > :14:12.is a horrible theatre. It is a way we can do. And whatever carnage
:14:12. > :14:15.is a horrible theatre. It is a way call —— whatever carnage we call,
:14:15. > :14:25.the world can be terrified by it. Are there implications in terms
:14:25. > :14:34.lessons to be drawn when you have Are there implications in terms
:14:34. > :14:42.lessons to be drawn when you have got the president of the United
:14:42. > :14:45.lessons to be drawn when you have in retreat and defeat of all? The
:14:45. > :14:49.original Al—Qaeda may be in retreat, and many of its leaders have been
:14:50. > :14:59.killed, the drones and intelligence have done a number on them. The
:14:59. > :15:02.ideology is easily spread with modern technology. The techniques
:15:02. > :15:08.are to get correct —— grenades, modern technology. The techniques
:15:08. > :15:21.and explosives, and it is not that hard to do. I think the problem
:15:21. > :15:28.and explosives, and it is not that two fall. Maybe threefold. There is
:15:28. > :15:33.an ideological war which —— where Muslims must figure out what they
:15:33. > :15:42.want to do about Islam. Then there is capacity building in states
:15:42. > :15:47.like... Young men are unemployed, and then there is a very complex
:15:47. > :15:52.security operation where you have to go through all of the tapes, all the
:15:52. > :15:53.fingerprints and try to find out who did this and who they are connected
:15:53. > :16:03.to. The NSA have been very good did this and who they are connected
:16:03. > :16:08.doing this in the West. I talked to years has been the efficiency of
:16:08. > :16:13.difference for them in the last years has been the efficiency of
:16:13. > :16:21.making the connections and peeling years has been the efficiency of
:16:21. > :16:27.These people are telling me what they think is the truth. There is no
:16:27. > :16:31.doubt that the way terrorism is prevented is through exactly the
:16:31. > :16:37.kind of intelligence work, but that what's more, we could look at all of
:16:37. > :16:49.There is a lot of popular support your e—mails and phone calls. We
:16:49. > :16:50.There is a lot of popular support for the idea of a reasonable amount
:16:50. > :16:58.of surveillance where there is reasonable risk, but that does not
:16:58. > :17:01.population. I think they have gone too far as well, but they are mostly
:17:01. > :17:08.looking at connections of phone numbers. Nevertheless, it is a
:17:08. > :17:11.dangerous thing. What is really important is that the war on terror
:17:11. > :17:16.does not get itself up and going again. These are out to expect we
:17:16. > :17:20.will have to live with, like small episodes of the plague. They will
:17:20. > :17:24.not wipe out nations. They are horrible and graphic, and as you
:17:24. > :17:31.say, they are theatrical, but the approach. In Britain, we know most
:17:31. > :17:37.about this, because we lived for many years with relatively low level
:17:37. > :17:41.terrorism from the IRA and we made beginning and locked up a lot of
:17:41. > :17:50.people without trial and broke all the civil rights ASIC rules so that
:17:50. > :17:54.we —— basic rules so that we lost the moral high ground. Never do
:17:54. > :18:04.that, that is very important. And in the end, both they and we got weary.
:18:04. > :18:09.What would you speed to them about? That is formed within the world
:18:10. > :18:17.What would you speed to them about? eight —— is land. This is utopian
:18:17. > :18:20.madness, where they want to wipe out West in the serialism. There is
:18:20. > :18:22.madness, where they want to wipe out way that the people of these Islamic
:18:22. > :18:29.of it, not less! The war on terror countries want that. They want more
:18:29. > :18:29.of it, not less! The war on terror has also had a negative effect in
:18:30. > :18:33.Somalia, by cutting off aid. We organisations, and although Somalia
:18:33. > :18:43.to look at the other end of it, organisations, and although Somalia
:18:43. > :18:44.now has a government, and yes, Al—Shabab has been driven out of
:18:44. > :18:58.encouraging that situation. For Al—Shabab has been driven out of
:18:58. > :19:03.than 30 years, Western countries have been trying to work out what to
:19:03. > :19:04.Now the new Iranians president says he hopes to reach an agreement about
:19:04. > :19:14.his country's relationship with he hopes to reach an agreement about
:19:15. > :19:20.cannot run the eight —— I cannot remember a telephone compensation ——
:19:20. > :19:26.conversation that has had such an impact! What is not to like? I was
:19:26. > :19:33.moving my desk this week and I found a talk that I had given on US and
:19:33. > :19:37.Iranian relations in 2004. I thought I could probably pull this out
:19:37. > :19:44.today! Ingredients for a bargain between the US and Iran have been
:19:44. > :19:48.evident for a long time. There has to be something to do with the
:19:48. > :19:51.nuclear problem and some completion on Iran and the world. What may
:19:51. > :19:55.nuclear problem and some completion the difference this time and might
:19:55. > :19:58.be producing some reality here is that the sanctions have really
:19:58. > :20:00.eating into Iranians I and people know it and there is pressure to do
:20:00. > :20:08.something about it. We have had know it and there is pressure to do
:20:08. > :20:12.nice looking president come to the West End have the rug pulled out of
:20:12. > :20:17.thin —— pulled out from under him before. The nuclear programme is
:20:17. > :20:23.still run by the Revolutionary guards. Very complex politics inside
:20:23. > :20:24.Iran, as we all know. It is looks like something is happening here.
:20:25. > :20:41.Ireland analogy, people can always like something is happening here.
:20:42. > :20:45.Ireland analogy, people can always say, you are not manly enough when
:20:45. > :20:49.you are trying to make peace, and there are lots of slips that could
:20:49. > :20:53.happen here. But I would say that the stars seem to be aligning in a
:20:53. > :20:58.way that is helpful. The other thing that is obvious from your 2004
:20:58. > :20:59.talk, or even before, is that it is obviously in the interests of Iran
:20:59. > :21:10.but the elephant in the room here is obviously in the interests of Iran
:21:10. > :21:13.but the elephant in the room here is Israel, which has had a neither
:21:13. > :21:21.confirm nor deny policy about its question, because if there is an
:21:21. > :21:23.agreement, there will be pressure on Israel. Hassan Rohani talked about a
:21:23. > :21:28.regional policy, and there will Israel. Hassan Rohani talked about a
:21:28. > :21:35.inspectors in itself and come clean about it. I am open to correction,
:21:35. > :21:39.but as I understand it, the Israeli policy has always been not to talk
:21:39. > :21:46.about it, but also peace with the prerequisite of thinking about what
:21:46. > :21:50.armaments we have. And peace with the neighbours looks pretty remote!
:21:50. > :22:00.It does look remote, but if we are policy, including chemical and is,
:22:00. > :22:08.important, then how long can Israel stand outside that? I am optimistic
:22:08. > :22:19.for one reason, because the supreme leader in Iran gave a speech earlier
:22:19. > :22:24.phrase, heretic flexibility. Iran has to employ heroine flexibility.
:22:24. > :22:36.This is a wonderful fantasy! —— heroine flexibility. They need to
:22:36. > :22:39.recognise the existence of Israel. Unless the neighbouring countries in
:22:39. > :22:53.the Middle East recognise Israel as Unless the neighbouring countries in
:22:53. > :22:54.the Middle East recognise Israel as lead nowhere. You have to really go
:22:54. > :23:24.that they were invaded by a rack and lead nowhere. You have to really go
:23:24. > :23:25.that they were invaded by a rack and We forget those things very easily.
:23:25. > :23:29.Those days are gone and we wipe We forget those things very easily.
:23:29. > :23:34.out from our memory, that they are left with the scars. News programmes
:23:34. > :23:43.talk about terrible things happening all over the place, and once in
:23:43. > :23:49.awhile, let's today celebrated and try and make sure that the West
:23:49. > :23:56.doesn't miss this chance. Is —— shows some heroic flexibility! You
:23:56. > :23:59.get moments like Tahrir Square or the fall of the Berlin Wall. It
:24:00. > :24:01.get moments like Tahrir Square or not mean everything will be easy
:24:01. > :24:11.afterwards, but there are moments where you can hope. Flexibility
:24:11. > :24:15.afterwards, but there are moments words as well, as Hassan Rohani
:24:15. > :24:20.called the US the big nation rather than the big Satan! We need to break
:24:20. > :24:31.down sanctions so that his people can see wealth flowing. That this
:24:31. > :24:34.demand X —— flexibility, given that Obama has lobbying groups in the
:24:34. > :24:43.United States. Rain there are groups who will want him to fail, as they
:24:43. > :24:46.want his domestic policies to fail but some sanctions would require
:24:46. > :24:51.others he can do with executive congressional approval to lift,
:24:51. > :25:09.ingredients are to make a deal over action. You can do quite a bit and
:25:09. > :25:12.ingredients are to make a deal over nuclear arms. And let's market in
:25:12. > :25:14.Polly's terms, it is breathtaking what has happened in just one week,
:25:14. > :25:19.given that nothing has happened what has happened in just one week,
:25:19. > :25:21.34 years. No, he is not Gorbachev, he is not a powerful signal ——
:25:22. > :25:30.favourite candidate for president. he is not a powerful signal ——
:25:30. > :25:32.favourite candidate for president. We have to wait and be careful and
:25:32. > :25:47.maybe things would go right, but programme! Thank you all very much.
:25:47. > :25:49.Twitter. Thank you for watching