:00:00. > :00:34.Hello and welcome to Dateline, the most catastrophic loss to British
:00:34. > :00:39.intelligence ever. Is that really what Edward Snowden has done? The
:00:39. > :00:40.American shutdown and the kidnapping of the Prime Minister of Liberia ——
:00:40. > :01:02.The former head of Britain's Alick Tronic eavesdropping organisation ——
:01:02. > :01:13.Alick Tronic. Reckons that what intelligence. Are they right? We
:01:13. > :01:30.have to take their word for it, intelligence. Are they right? We
:01:30. > :01:31.most shocking surveillance programme of ordinary civilians in peace time
:01:31. > :01:41.Guardian's instincts were right of ordinary civilians in peace time
:01:41. > :01:44.Guardian's instincts were right here, as I have said in print. You
:01:44. > :01:49.are not a fan of the Guardian, but on this... Absolutely. What was
:01:49. > :01:53.revealed about the surveillance on this... Absolutely. What was
:01:53. > :01:59.ordinary people's e—mail traffic and Internet browsing, this is truly
:01:59. > :02:08.shocking in a free society and it did have to be exposed. A good day
:02:08. > :02:13.for British journalism, then? Yes. Whenever you managed to get at those
:02:13. > :02:19.who want to transgress their duties under a democratic system it is
:02:19. > :02:24.always good. I have a slight problem as well, as far as the threat to
:02:24. > :02:29.journalism is concerned, someone says something and you print, where
:02:29. > :02:35.is the journalist? The journalist be the mediator otherwise we have
:02:35. > :02:39.citizen journalists who take photos and videos with the telephone in one
:02:39. > :02:46.hand and whistle—blowers on the other. And the journalists are
:02:46. > :02:49.excluded. What are you saying there? In terms of Edward Snowden, he may
:02:49. > :02:54.have a case to answer. He is in In terms of Edward Snowden, he may
:02:54. > :03:02.different position to a Guardian journalist. Of course, these are two
:03:02. > :03:06.different things. But there is a story that someone like Edward
:03:06. > :03:25.The former head of GCHQ in very Snowden has borrowed some documents
:03:25. > :03:29.The former head of GCHQ in very exaggerated terms, what is he going
:03:29. > :03:31.to do about the consequences? No case has been brought to anybody in
:03:31. > :03:36.Britain. The Prime Minister has case has been brought to anybody in
:03:36. > :03:48.that has happened, why don't they do exaggeration this is the greatest
:03:48. > :03:51.that has happened, why don't they do anything about it? I think you need
:03:51. > :04:00.to examine those claims. They made this month you have the national
:04:00. > :04:10.security director at admitting these collection had stopped. It was
:04:10. > :04:16.connection with the US, and in the end he had to say it was only one or
:04:16. > :04:21.two. To say it was the biggest security breach for the US and the
:04:21. > :04:25.UK, it might be objectively true in terms of the documents, but the
:04:25. > :04:32.UK, it might be objectively true in of threat that they are positing it
:04:32. > :04:37.poses, I am not so sure. The public, increasingly sceptical of this kind
:04:37. > :04:41.of thing. There is a difference between what is embarrassing to
:04:41. > :04:43.of thing. There is a difference and other parts of the security
:04:43. > :04:49.apparatchiks and what is actually damaging. The case of being is
:04:49. > :05:03.obvious, but damage, the case has not been made. They are not supposed
:05:03. > :05:12.to be enemies any more, we are not in the Cold War. He should have
:05:12. > :05:14.to be enemies any more, we are not talk about anything. There is no
:05:14. > :05:21.particular evidence of a direct route from Moscow... Given what
:05:21. > :05:25.Snowden also revealed about the governments, perhaps who is an enemy
:05:25. > :05:38.president engaged in a debate. The and who is not an enemy is neither
:05:38. > :05:41.president engaged in a debate. The whole country engaged in a debate.
:05:41. > :06:00.this is extremely damaging instead intelligence would come out and
:06:00. > :06:00.When this happens, the Chinese saw it as shocking, but also a delight.
:06:00. > :06:13.China has had this history, and it as shocking, but also a delight.
:06:13. > :06:16.written criticising the government. It was a huge piece of news. And
:06:16. > :06:24.now, the level or the magnitude It was a huge piece of news. And
:06:24. > :06:32.surveillance is huge. In America and in the UK. It is making the Chinese
:06:32. > :06:42.look rather low scale. The British security services are a source of
:06:42. > :06:45.relaxed James Bond. These are guys who are basically public school
:06:45. > :06:53.types and we can basically trust them not to do anything terrible.
:06:53. > :06:58.But there is also the fact, I am sorry to say, that this was in the
:06:58. > :07:01.Guardian and the Guardian is not a popular newspaper with the rest
:07:01. > :07:04.Guardian and the Guardian is not a the press because of the phone
:07:04. > :07:09.hacking thing of which sparked off resulted in this threat of press
:07:09. > :07:12.regulation. The Guardian is the resulted in this threat of press
:07:12. > :07:16.boy at the moment and the rest of the newspapers are reluctant to
:07:16. > :07:34.offer their support or engage with bad time for those who wish to
:07:34. > :07:38.are not strictly connected, people regulate the press. Although the two
:07:38. > :07:39.are not strictly connected, people press would stop this sort of thing
:07:39. > :07:48.This would be stopped and this would This would be stopped and this
:07:48. > :07:53.be a bad thing, many people would say. There is another argument which
:07:53. > :07:58.tabloid newspapers have provoked is an horrendous mess. The British
:07:58. > :08:08.We have libel laws which attracts is an horrendous mess. The British
:08:08. > :08:11.We have libel laws which attracts tourism! We have contempt of court
:08:11. > :08:15.laws in which an editor can actually go to prison. This would be unheard
:08:15. > :08:19.of in the United States were the first Amendment protects freedom of
:08:19. > :08:24.expression of all—time —— of all kinds. The idea we need a specific
:08:24. > :08:31.generation of politicians able to control or monitor regulate the
:08:31. > :08:36.press is horrendous. I am reluctant to accept any special law about
:08:36. > :08:41.this. Wide EU need a special law for the press? There are lots of laws
:08:41. > :08:53.which could be applied when the press does anything wrong. —— why do
:08:53. > :08:57.you need. Phone hacking is not part of journalism, it is not part of the
:08:57. > :09:02.press, it is an ordinary crime which courts. In a democracy, to think you
:09:02. > :09:09.are going to have a special law courts. In a democracy, to think you
:09:09. > :09:13.the press is bad news. As Janet suggested, some sections of the
:09:13. > :09:17.press have not made their own case very well in the sense they are
:09:17. > :09:21.press have not made their own case so open to corrections and putting
:09:21. > :09:25.things right. They run a big story which is proved to be wrong. Most
:09:25. > :09:30.good journalists would say, if you get it wrong, you should say so
:09:30. > :09:32.good journalists would say, if you reasonably prominent position. There
:09:32. > :09:38.has certainly been cases like that, but right now you have a consensus
:09:38. > :09:46.within the media that changes need regulation. It is just a matter
:09:46. > :09:49.within the media that changes need how you make that better regulation
:09:49. > :10:17.rights and freedom of free speech, happen. Back to your original point,
:10:17. > :10:19.rights and freedom of free speech, but some people are saying that
:10:19. > :10:23.Snowden was wrong and it is damaging to the United States and we should
:10:23. > :10:29.do more of this. We should spy on the bad guys. I think the idea of
:10:29. > :10:34.revealing that we spy on the bad guys helps them is ridiculous. If
:10:34. > :10:45.there are terrorists out there who think their phones are not being
:10:45. > :10:48.tapped into... Do you think there is a spill—over into regulations?
:10:48. > :10:52.Because of Snowden, although it a spill—over into regulations?
:10:52. > :10:58.not directly connected, some people will think we need to do more? I
:10:58. > :11:04.intelligence service, shouldn't will think we need to do more? I
:11:04. > :11:07.be a point of debate rather than whether we should regulate the
:11:07. > :11:11.journalists? I think there are two issues here, the Guardian and the
:11:11. > :11:17.journalism, and the issue which issues here, the Guardian and the
:11:17. > :11:24.bigger one, that there is a huge surveillance programme on regulated.
:11:24. > :11:32.Normal individuals, this massive magnitude, all of the technology
:11:32. > :11:37.information. Is that absolutely necessary for security? Those who
:11:37. > :11:41.are in charge, politicians in charge necessary for security? Those who
:11:41. > :11:42.are in charge, politicians in charge of security services, they say trust
:11:42. > :11:54.e—mails are safe. Do you trust us, it is all fine. We obey the
:11:54. > :12:00.table there. William Hague actually them? It all went very quiet at
:12:00. > :12:05.table there. William Hague actually said in the House of Commons, if you
:12:05. > :12:11.have done nothing wrong, you have another danger if you just talk
:12:11. > :12:16.about it like that in a mocking another danger if you just talk
:12:16. > :12:29.it will encourage cynicism. If we trusts anybody, how can a democracy
:12:29. > :12:35.work? No matter what structure. Exactly. You cannot play with this
:12:35. > :12:38.idea, be cynical about it and then leave it. The government does claim
:12:38. > :12:44.it has political oversight over leave it. The government does claim
:12:44. > :12:50.security services. You have two check it. Check the voracity of
:12:50. > :12:51.security services. You have two William Hague has said. But by
:12:51. > :12:59.definition security services cannot be open and transparent. You have
:12:59. > :13:07.Parliament... It is a trust problem. regulating them... Otherwise where
:13:07. > :13:11.would it end? Trust in politicians is at an all—time low. When I lived
:13:11. > :13:15.in the United States, the three is at an all—time low. When I lived
:13:15. > :13:17.difficult stories to explain to is at an all—time low. When I lived
:13:17. > :13:21.audiences were the American love affair with guns, why some people do
:13:21. > :13:26.not believe in evolution and wide from time to time at the American
:13:26. > :13:31.government grinds to a halt. The American shutdown does not seem
:13:31. > :13:31.government grinds to a halt. The benefit anyone, does it? You need to
:13:31. > :13:38.look at who is going to be most benefit anyone, does it? You need to
:13:38. > :13:41.by it. It is not true that President Obama's ratings are going up, but
:13:41. > :13:48.shutdown? The polls are showing Obama's ratings are going up, but
:13:48. > :13:52.Republican party responsible. The majority of Americans feel it is the
:13:52. > :13:57.Republican party responsible. The Republican Party's ratings are at an
:13:57. > :14:10.all—time low at 24%. What you have here is a situation of a party that
:14:10. > :14:14.essentially stopping President Obama's health policy. They are
:14:14. > :14:33.them is if they have a tea party willing to have the government shuts
:14:33. > :14:33.them is if they have a tea party candidate, or someone on the right
:14:33. > :14:42.things have been gerrymandered, candidate, or someone on the right
:14:42. > :14:51.do not have to worry about the seats. The federal government is the
:14:52. > :15:00.one that has gridlocked, state governments almost never do. The
:15:00. > :15:06.system of checks and balances has breaks, but no pedal, which means it
:15:06. > :15:14.can freeze up when the legislative branch disagrees with the executive
:15:14. > :15:18.American children learn in school that the executive in forces the
:15:18. > :15:24.law, the legislative enforces the law and either of those bodies can
:15:24. > :15:29.things. The Congress is a democratic institution. This is built into
:15:29. > :15:29.things. The Congress is a democratic Constitution and it happens at
:15:30. > :15:34.regular intervals. Particularly Constitution and it happens at
:15:34. > :15:49.Congress having the power to prove the budget. I do think it is a
:15:49. > :15:56.single issue. Congress has not They have had this issue for a long
:15:56. > :16:13.faction of a party that is trying to They have had this issue for a long
:16:13. > :16:14.faction of a party that is trying to stop from being implemented a law
:16:14. > :16:34.using mechanisms... But it is a stop from being implemented a law
:16:34. > :16:37.using mechanisms... But it is a immediate problem is Obamacare,
:16:37. > :16:39.using mechanisms... But it is a it is also about high spending
:16:40. > :16:46.government. They built Washington on government. The point about the
:16:47. > :16:50.government. They built Washington on a swamp in order to dissuade people
:16:50. > :16:54.from steam too long. The federal government was not supposed to have
:16:54. > :16:57.too much power and these constraints which make it inherently difficult
:16:57. > :17:15.to do anything where built in quite deliberately. Every system is built
:17:15. > :17:25.emotional reaction to the monarchies of Europe, the Constitution was
:17:25. > :17:31.made. It is not only about the Republican Party or the President,
:17:31. > :17:38.this is a country that doesn't work. Not all me on this occasion, but
:17:38. > :17:46.throughout the past 30 years at least, the USA has been like this.
:17:46. > :17:59.They have to go back and find a system that will enable them to
:17:59. > :18:02.allowing them to government. Govern. These kind of enquiries, it does
:18:02. > :18:12.seem dysfunctional. Absolutely, These kind of enquiries, it does
:18:13. > :18:18.it is built into the constitution. This is fundamental, this conflict.
:18:18. > :18:30.Amendments to the Constitution are constitution was passed 200 years
:18:30. > :18:38.ago and distinct web every now and It is a wider debate, as Janet said.
:18:38. > :18:59.America can get its budget under It is a wider debate, as Janet said.
:18:59. > :19:01.America can get its budget under There is an ideological divide here.
:19:01. > :19:17.But it is about the size and power of government. They will talk about
:19:18. > :19:25.generation of politicians. Ronald Reagan was able to reach across
:19:25. > :19:26.generation of politicians. Ronald floor, so was Bill Clinton. This
:19:26. > :19:36.president has been very reluctant to When Britain and France — with a
:19:36. > :19:38.great deal of backing from the United States — helped Libyans
:19:38. > :19:42.overthrow Colonel Gaddafi it was hailed as a great moment for the
:19:42. > :19:45.Arab Spring. Now with the oil shut off and after the brief kidnapping
:19:45. > :19:49.of the Prime Minister — are we right to think that foreign intervention
:19:49. > :19:56.mistake? Libya doesn't look very good at the moment. On the surface,
:19:56. > :20:02.no, but there is no Colonel Gaddafi, prisoners, there is no torture.
:20:02. > :20:04.no, but there is no Colonel Gaddafi, new generation of businessmen,
:20:04. > :20:10.politicians and journalists are being trained. But the first time,
:20:10. > :20:13.there are the newspapers, free radio, people are talking about
:20:13. > :20:20.there are the newspapers, free rights of the black Libyans in the
:20:20. > :20:32.South and the rights of religious Libya is a kind of work in progress.
:20:32. > :20:41.society has its own grammar, its own television bulletin to another,
:20:41. > :20:44.language. You must understand, Libya language. You must understand, Libya
:20:44. > :20:56.artificial, created with bits and is not the USA, where every five
:20:56. > :20:58.artificial, created with bits and pieces from other empires. It is a
:20:59. > :21:06.huge country, three and a half times the size of France. Give them a
:21:06. > :21:13.Optimistic, Janet? I do think the chance. I am rather optimistic.
:21:13. > :21:17.Optimistic, Janet? I do think the question of whether the West student
:21:17. > :21:23.intervened is a serious one, and I am always inclined to be on the
:21:23. > :21:26.intervened is a serious one, and I patronising of that part of the
:21:26. > :21:30.world is unfortunate. There were people going around at one time
:21:30. > :21:35.saying, Arabs don't do democracy. By that that was a racist thing to
:21:35. > :21:36.saying, Arabs don't do democracy. By We didn't do democracy until very
:21:36. > :21:41.recently. I think the idea that We didn't do democracy until very
:21:41. > :21:46.West did intervene when a tinpot dictator is persecuting or murdering
:21:46. > :21:48.there's any question that we should do that. It gets messy when we try
:21:48. > :21:55.to with drop, but I still think do that. It gets messy when we try
:21:56. > :22:07.moral obligation is there. Do you think it will take a long time?
:22:07. > :22:09.moral obligation is there. Do you question is not that Libya has not
:22:09. > :22:14.become a democracy until it is a failure. Maybe Libya will mother
:22:14. > :22:17.become a democracy. But for the first time, Libya has the choice to
:22:17. > :22:27.make their own mistakes. Maybe they will make a mess of it, but it is
:22:28. > :22:37.responsibility. When we talk about foreign intervention, it is easy to
:22:37. > :22:47.intervention by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. In the case of Syria, there
:22:47. > :22:53.intervention at one point, but it has now passed because of the mix of
:22:53. > :23:00.ideologies and different kinds of intervenes and it gets demonised
:23:00. > :23:15.normally tend to take the view of intervenes and it gets demonised
:23:15. > :23:21.Libyans can make their own mistakes. not intervening. It is great that
:23:21. > :23:28.Libyans can make their own mistakes. In fact, internal fears get very
:23:28. > :23:33.messy and you can't watch genocide happen in countries without taking a
:23:33. > :23:43.stand, but when do we go in, when does the West go in to set up shop
:23:43. > :23:49.and then leave? What happened in the middle east has been wonderful in
:23:49. > :23:54.the way that it happened from within the people, the mass. For me, the
:23:54. > :24:00.West should take a constrained stand and should let the people perhaps
:24:00. > :24:08.make their own mistakes. After all, Mohammed Carr as I in Afghanistan
:24:08. > :24:12.was very clear this week. He said Western intervention was disastrous
:24:12. > :24:18.for his country. Maybe now he's Western intervention was disastrous
:24:18. > :24:25.the end of his term, you says that, but when he was at the beginning of
:24:25. > :24:32.his term, it was different. His bodyguards were Americans, for God
:24:32. > :24:38.'s sake. The Americans came there and liberated the Afghans from the
:24:38. > :24:44.worst Islamic regime that I know, as somebody who has studied Islam very
:24:45. > :24:50.the pits. They stopped people in the carefully. The Taliban were really
:24:50. > :24:50.the pits. They stopped people in the bizarre and measured their beard. If
:24:51. > :25:02.your beard wasn't long enough, they bizarre and measured their beard. If
:25:02. > :25:15.after, it is their problem, it is compared to the way it was before,
:25:15. > :25:18.nobody else's problem. That's it for nobody else's problem. That's it
:25:18. > :25:20.this week. We are back next week at this week. We are back next week at
:25:20. > :25:20.the same time. You can comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler