:00:00. > :00:00.should leave the UK takes place next September. I will be back with a
:00:00. > :00:00.full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now on BBC News Dateline
:00:00. > :00:24.London with Gavin Esler. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:25. > :00:28.London. The British economy on the road to
:00:29. > :00:30.recovery ` so why do so many people still feel the pinch? Selling
:00:31. > :00:34.Britain in China. And the Norwegian national involved in the killings in
:00:35. > :00:37.Kenya. Why? My guests today are ` Mustapha
:00:38. > :00:40.Karkouti of Gulf News, Isabel Hilton of China Dialogue, Agnes Poirier of
:00:41. > :00:50.Marianne and Ashis Ray who is an Indian writer. Welcome to you.
:00:51. > :00:54.Unemployment in Britain is going down and growth forecasts are. But
:00:55. > :00:59.all over Britain there are signs of people being squeezed. A charity
:01:00. > :01:06.report suggests that the number of people using food banks, do we face
:01:07. > :01:14.a crisis and living standards? The Labour Party is saying that. Yes, I
:01:15. > :01:16.think that is absolutely right. Although the figures of late show a
:01:17. > :01:24.modest improvement, I think basically there are two points that
:01:25. > :01:30.remain. One, unemployment is still around 7.7%, which is much too high.
:01:31. > :01:34.Secondly, the size of the UK economy today is still more than 3% smaller
:01:35. > :01:42.than what it was at the time of the meltdown in 2008. That said, I think
:01:43. > :01:48.during the periods of Britain after that your, it is true to say that a
:01:49. > :01:55.section of the rich have become richer, and a section of the pure
:01:56. > :02:00.have become cooler. The next `` net result of this is being felt.
:02:01. > :02:07.Utility costs have gone up, food prices have gone up, petrol prices
:02:08. > :02:13.are still high. Condensation of it all is causing distress in the
:02:14. > :02:20.market. `` condemnation. It could have been much worse. It is not
:02:21. > :02:23.Spain, it is not 25% unemployment. It is not as bad as it could have
:02:24. > :02:31.been and there are those who would seek it is true is `` living
:02:32. > :02:35.standards have been squeezed. People are taking real wage cuts and have
:02:36. > :02:41.done for several years. It is interesting that you say 7.7%
:02:42. > :02:46.unemployment is still too big. In France it is more than 10%. I think
:02:47. > :02:52.it shows the nature of the labour market in the UK is very flexible.
:02:53. > :02:58.Therefore it will bounce back much quicker than the French labour
:02:59. > :03:06.market, which is very tight and controlled. On the other hand, it is
:03:07. > :03:10.interesting because we have got relatively better figures. On the
:03:11. > :03:14.other hand in the street of London, rubbish is less collected than it
:03:15. > :03:19.used to be. In my street is to be three times a week, now it is once a
:03:20. > :03:23.week. The local library has closed. So they are sturdy policies have had
:03:24. > :03:34.a massive impact, in terms of daily life. `` austerity. The real cuts
:03:35. > :03:42.have not begun yet. Absolutely. Of course, I think we should talk about
:03:43. > :03:47.the house market, which in the last year has rose by 10%, especially in
:03:48. > :03:53.London. The nature of the British economy seems to be based on
:03:54. > :03:58.speculation, on properties in London. It is so frightening,
:03:59. > :04:04.because London, in the last 15 years I have been in London, it is such a
:04:05. > :04:10.vibrant Cosmopolis. In a generation we could be having a discussion so
:04:11. > :04:18.far away from London, the BBC could be somewhere in Scotland, because we
:04:19. > :04:23.cannot afford to live in London. That may need to be negotiated.
:04:24. > :04:29.There is clearly a London or south`east economy and there are
:04:30. > :04:33.other economies which are very different. House prices are not
:04:34. > :04:38.going up everywhere. If you look at the high streets in eventual areas,
:04:39. > :04:43.you will see the recession, people have closed shops. I wanted to go
:04:44. > :04:48.back to the question of the longer term future, good news on
:04:49. > :04:53.unemployment figures. However, the reports that are coming out now,
:04:54. > :04:57.will reveal that poverty is more widespread amongst the working
:04:58. > :05:00.people. His family is that have to choose between heating their homes
:05:01. > :05:08.and eating, often have working parents was up ``. That is because
:05:09. > :05:14.we have seen this appalling squeeze on what people get paid for their
:05:15. > :05:20.work and the transfer of wealth for a very tiny elite. If you haul out
:05:21. > :05:24.of society in this way, how are people supposed to do the
:05:25. > :05:29.consumptions, do the spending that you want to get your economy booming
:05:30. > :05:35.again? We do not have the money. The charity who looked at food banks
:05:36. > :05:41.this week, say they are figures show three times more people using food
:05:42. > :05:44.banks than a year ago. The people involved in those charitable things
:05:45. > :05:47.are doing great work. But are we going down the road of the United
:05:48. > :05:52.States where food banks become permanent parts of our lives? It
:05:53. > :06:02.seems to become the trend. If you look at the next group of cuts,
:06:03. > :06:08.they've all in constituencies that are pure. Around London and the
:06:09. > :06:23.south`east you have an untouched area. Would you not expect that
:06:24. > :06:28.public sector cuts would fall on people who use public services?
:06:29. > :06:32.Absolutely. Those are the most honourable people in our society. If
:06:33. > :06:37.we are going to do this, we have to accept that we will recreate a
:06:38. > :06:49.society that we left behind. `` vulnerable. It is not the poor
:06:50. > :06:57.getting poor necessarily. It is the middle class being affected because
:06:58. > :07:03.wages are not going up and the cost of living has rocketed at the same
:07:04. > :07:05.time. It is not just the poor who are affected, it is in large section
:07:06. > :07:10.of the middle`class who are also being hit. The lifestyle you might
:07:11. > :07:15.have had ten or 15 years ago, you cannot sustain that now because of
:07:16. > :07:24.the cost of living. This is one aspect. The other aspect, the common
:07:25. > :07:28.`` economic gap between regions in the country is highlighted in this
:07:29. > :07:35.new project which is very widely debated, HS2. The new high`speed
:07:36. > :07:41.train that will connect with London in the north of England. This will
:07:42. > :07:52.make the northern area, regions, even more for `` poor. So they have
:07:53. > :08:00.to be thing, especially now, between us and the next election, they have
:08:01. > :08:07.to this right, the politicians. Fundamentally, wages have not kept
:08:08. > :08:11.up with the cost of living. You have this problem of low wages and even
:08:12. > :08:14.trainee wages, because as a difficult number of people are
:08:15. > :08:20.working as trainees rather than as fully employed people. I was in
:08:21. > :08:24.Holland couple of weeks ago, the standard of their infrastructure is
:08:25. > :08:31.magnificent. I come back to London, I try to `` drive to Oxford, the
:08:32. > :08:38.state of the motorway is miserable. Why is that happening? Cannot more
:08:39. > :08:50.people be employed in that area? One of the big shocks, is energy prices
:08:51. > :09:00.going up. 9%, 8%, depending on who your supplier is. We have the story
:09:01. > :09:07.of ministers saying we are British, we only have to put on more layers.
:09:08. > :09:15.We cannot afford hearing, so add another jumper. `` heating. In the
:09:16. > :09:20.same style of Jeremy Hunt seeing the NHS is not measuring up to caring
:09:21. > :09:25.for the old people, why do not we do like the Chinese and every family
:09:26. > :09:38.should actually have some shelter and feature owned `` feed your own
:09:39. > :09:42.old parents. They are building the biggest old age care homes in the
:09:43. > :09:48.world. People have gone to the city 's leaving elderly parents wrap ``
:09:49. > :09:54.behind. That family structure has broken down in the last few years.
:09:55. > :09:58.The Chancellor of the Exchequer led a delegation to China this week to
:09:59. > :10:07.present Britain as the land of opportunity for Chinese businesses.
:10:08. > :10:17.Where the Chinese press and how far does the British approach go?
:10:18. > :10:20.I think the Chinese have been impressed with the eagerness of the
:10:21. > :10:27.Chancellor to sell whatever he could. The Chinese, traditionally,
:10:28. > :10:32.have like their visitors to be coming from tributary states. I
:10:33. > :10:35.think he fitted in perfectly well. The first encounter, the first
:10:36. > :10:40.trading counter between Britain and China broke down over Lord
:10:41. > :10:52.McCartney's refusal to koto. We have made up for this will stop ``. Both
:10:53. > :10:56.`` we have been trying to sell to the Chinese since the 17th century
:10:57. > :11:03.and we have not been doing very well. Germany does very well, there
:11:04. > :11:07.are things the Chinese want to buy. Britain seems to be schizophrenic.
:11:08. > :11:11.Every now and then a British politician will discover China as if
:11:12. > :11:14.it hadn't been there all along. If he had stayed longer he would
:11:15. > :11:20.discover there are other foreign businesses doing better than ours.
:11:21. > :11:26.Been there longer, tried longer. I have grave reservations over some of
:11:27. > :11:31.the dealings that were announced, like the idea that the Chinese would
:11:32. > :11:36.take a majority stake in infrastructure projects like a
:11:37. > :11:41.nuclear power station. I would think these would be a national debate
:11:42. > :11:50.which we have not had. How did the French do in this? Will the ``
:11:51. > :12:03.brilliantly? No, not at all. We were trying to sell assets. We are trying
:12:04. > :12:15.to interest the Chinese into buying our car companies. When George
:12:16. > :12:21.Osborne said Britain and China are both ancient civilisations. Boris
:12:22. > :12:29.Johnson and George Osborne, it reminds people of Mr Bean, this
:12:30. > :12:31.double act. When you think that China is investing three times more
:12:32. > :12:35.in Australia than they do in Britain. France and Britain are very
:12:36. > :12:44.small business opportunities for China. Better late than never? Yes,
:12:45. > :12:55.we do very well on tourism. The French do. Yes. We found recently
:12:56. > :13:02.that Chinese tourists flock to Paris and they spend millions and
:13:03. > :13:06.millions. London is losing the battle on the tourism front. So that
:13:07. > :13:12.is something that perhaps Osborne could work on. That is something
:13:13. > :13:19.that Chinese people have been complaining about for ages. Because
:13:20. > :13:27.it is so difficult to get to London. Chinese students, you have a double
:13:28. > :13:32.language here. Bank regulation will help with China. On the other hand,
:13:33. > :13:37.Nigel Farage and all the talk about making Britain less immigrant
:13:38. > :13:45.friendly is not giving out the right message. I was the new land of
:13:46. > :13:51.investment opportunity for Britain. Has that been eclipsed? I was going
:13:52. > :13:54.to come to that. I sense a change of tack on part of the British
:13:55. > :14:01.government. When this government came into office, in 2010, India was
:14:02. > :14:05.the flavour of the season. Within ten weeks of Cameron becoming prime
:14:06. > :14:10.minister, he went to India with a flag which said, we want a special
:14:11. > :14:17.relationship with India. What has happened is this, in terms of trade
:14:18. > :14:22.going on between the two countries, it has gone up and they will achieve
:14:23. > :14:25.the target of doubling trade within the five`year period of this
:14:26. > :14:30.government. But where I think Britain is a little does appointed
:14:31. > :14:34.as in the area of exports, particularly exports of military
:14:35. > :14:37.hardware. That is a result of political differences between the
:14:38. > :14:43.two countries. The second area, where I think there is an element of
:14:44. > :14:48.this is, there was an expectation that there would be a major second
:14:49. > :14:58.tranche of Indian investments in Britain, which was very successful.
:14:59. > :15:01.But something even bigger, better, more companies coming into Britain
:15:02. > :15:07.and investing in this country. This hasn't happened as a result of the
:15:08. > :15:18.slowdown in the economy. Therefore I see this change of tactics. China is
:15:19. > :15:28.the flavour of the season. The goal was a flavour of the season for a
:15:29. > :15:34.while. China now is the only country which has cash. They have no
:15:35. > :15:41.problem, they have no debts. No matter how reluctant the western and
:15:42. > :15:45.British politicians are in dealing with China, eventually they will go
:15:46. > :15:53.there, they will open their door for that money, at the end, no matter
:15:54. > :16:00.how reluctant they are. You might be of the 1930s bank robber, who was
:16:01. > :16:06.once asked why he robbed banks. He replied, because that is where the
:16:07. > :16:19.money is. It is true. The Chinese have had an outward investment
:16:20. > :16:25.policy for years. This country is the only one to have allowed Chinese
:16:26. > :16:34.investment. The Chinese would never allow that, the Americans would
:16:35. > :16:41.never allow it. It is not a good commercial deal, so why are the
:16:42. > :16:45.Chinese interested? The Chinese invest where there is technology
:16:46. > :16:53.they wish to acquire, so they can compete in the markets and probably
:16:54. > :17:00.destroyed their original partner. This in the easy as is a little over
:17:01. > :17:03.eight. One of the Al`Shabab killers
:17:04. > :17:05.involved in the attack on a Nairobi shopping mall was identified as a
:17:06. > :17:09.Somali`born Norwegian national. Why is it that some people who grow up
:17:10. > :17:12.amid all the freedoms of a tolerant Western culture end up loathing that
:17:13. > :17:20.culture so much? It is a question we asked here and it is asked in France
:17:21. > :17:26.as well. Do you have any ideas why these people are dislocated from
:17:27. > :17:41.both their original background and this one? Use needs absolute. I
:17:42. > :17:47.think today, Western democracy does not give absolutes to young people.
:17:48. > :17:53.I was brought up in France and was probably the last generation to
:17:54. > :17:56.begin and that absolute. It was the French republic's ideals. But in the
:17:57. > :18:24.West, Britain has relative of the problem is a twisted concept of
:18:25. > :18:29.Islam or Christianity. Competing religions such as Christianity and
:18:30. > :18:38.Islam, that does provide the search for the absolute. I think perhaps we
:18:39. > :18:43.should learn from that and make democracy, stand up to our values
:18:44. > :18:51.and transform democracy. It is a fight. If you look at the
:18:52. > :19:03.recruitment in extreme religious cult is, it shoots up at the age of
:19:04. > :19:08.late teens, early adult hood. Five or six years later, they tend to
:19:09. > :19:16.leave. We have had home`grown terrorism here. So did we. If you
:19:17. > :19:21.take adolescent alienation and the search for something that appears to
:19:22. > :19:25.give you all the answers, it is explicable by these people are
:19:26. > :19:31.attracted to the terrorist organisations. They carry foreign
:19:32. > :19:35.passports and a British or region passport as a much better bet if you
:19:36. > :19:42.are going to Kenya, for example. By the time these jazzmen go to
:19:43. > :19:50.Somalia, they are in the hands of the organisation, they are in.
:19:51. > :19:53.Treated. They are as vulnerable target group.
:19:54. > :19:57.This week we have had moderate British Muslims who have condemned
:19:58. > :20:02.attacks, being told in a Al`Shabab video that they could be targets
:20:03. > :20:11.too, for preaching that Islam is a moderate religion, a religion of
:20:12. > :20:17.peace. One imam told me that these people are lunatics and he has
:20:18. > :20:26.received a death threat. There is no doubt that they are lunatics. The
:20:27. > :20:39.thing about this, as you pointed out about the home`grown terrorists. If
:20:40. > :20:42.you go back to the 1970s and 1980s, there were very exciting
:20:43. > :20:55.organisations. They attract the use, the young people. They come to
:20:56. > :21:00.the Middle East and get training. They all did that. The thing is, you
:21:01. > :21:07.have to try and deal with this, but as well, you have to deal with the
:21:08. > :21:14.problems over the world. The extreme injustice that is going on in Africa
:21:15. > :21:19.or in the Arab world. There are cases all over the world. We have to
:21:20. > :21:26.find a solution. You can't go on now. If you take the Middle East,
:21:27. > :21:31.since 1948 until now, people are exhausted, they are tired. You are
:21:32. > :21:38.pushing people to the edges of extremism. So they will use these as
:21:39. > :21:47.excuses and carry on such atrocious operations, like the one we saw a
:21:48. > :21:52.couple of weeks ago. I think first of all, while Western policy in
:21:53. > :21:59.general and European policy included in this, has been generous in terms
:22:00. > :22:09.of immigration, there has been no policy or thinking until quite late
:22:10. > :22:14.of immigration. Multiculturalism as a concession granted by indigenous
:22:15. > :22:20.communities to immigrant communities has failed. The reason is simple.
:22:21. > :22:25.Unless you encourage an immigrant community to integrate with the
:22:26. > :22:30.indigenous society, there there will be a separatism. And that separatism
:22:31. > :22:37.is what we are witnessing in Europe, in Britain, in Norway. This
:22:38. > :22:43.is a classic case, because, isolated as they are, not growing up in the
:22:44. > :22:52.education as they should be, and they get angry after a while. In
:22:53. > :22:59.this case, this young man who was of Somali origin, or Norwegian National
:23:00. > :23:04.Mao, 23 years old, he has been an angry young man for some time. He
:23:05. > :23:11.has displayed anger at Norway, he has been leaning on extremism for a
:23:12. > :23:15.while. He has got into trouble several times, his father has been
:23:16. > :23:22.worried about what he has been doing. This is the kind of example
:23:23. > :23:31.which is they're all over. I think Europe, including Britain, is
:23:32. > :23:34.sitting on a powderkeg. If you are describing the French model versus
:23:35. > :23:41.the multi`cultural model in Britain. And like to hear more
:23:42. > :23:48.about, do you think we should have stricter rules? That you have to
:23:49. > :23:53.speak the language and accept certain cultural norms. That might
:23:54. > :24:01.mean something about dress and not wearing thinner cap. Even freedom of
:24:02. > :24:11.speech has limits and you cannot incite hatred or murder. I could see
:24:12. > :24:15.an imam inciting hatred and nobody was raising an eyebrow. It is
:24:16. > :24:25.British tolerance, but that tolerance would not be tolerated in
:24:26. > :24:35.France. In the last 30 years, France has been looking towards Britain,
:24:36. > :24:46.instead of making the case for what it had been very good at, that is to
:24:47. > :24:50.say, a common destiny. If multiculturalism in riches further a
:24:51. > :24:53.culture, then that's fine. One example, when the East African
:24:54. > :25:00.Indians came here and started opening their shops until late, it
:25:01. > :25:04.revolutionised this country, in terms of its shopping habits. Today,
:25:05. > :25:10.all major outlets stay open to late. It has been a boon to the British
:25:11. > :25:19.economy. That is in Richmond, that is welcome, but separatism is not.
:25:20. > :25:25.We have to be very careful here, we're talking about individual
:25:26. > :25:27.cases. These are a tiny minority, but the majority of immigrants
:25:28. > :25:30.coming to the West are living very happily.
:25:31. > :25:34.That's it for Dateline London for this week. We're back next week at
:25:35. > :25:35.the same time. And you can of course comment on the programme on Twitter.
:25:36. > :26:11.Goodbye. Plenty of whether this weekend, but
:26:12. > :26:18.it would be a wash`out, because the sun will make an appearance, and
:26:19. > :26:19.when it does, temperatures will be quite warm for the time of