:00:00. > :00:24.committed during the last ages. `` last stage 's. Now it is time for
:00:25. > :00:26.Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:27. > :00:30.London. Britain's economic recovery. Reforming health care in the United
:00:31. > :00:32.States ` and the UK. And does it make sense to boycott the
:00:33. > :00:37.Commonwealth summit over Sri Lanka's human rights abuses? My guests today
:00:38. > :00:40.are Dmitry Shishkin of BBC Global News, Agnes Poirier of Marianne,
:00:41. > :00:46.Michael Goldfarb of globalpost.com and Ian Birrell of the Daily Mail.
:00:47. > :00:50.Welcome. Growth up. Inflation low. Unemployment falling. The figures
:00:51. > :00:53.show Britain emerging from recession, and the government is
:00:54. > :00:56.loudly claiming that the painful measures they have taken have begun
:00:57. > :01:02.to create a platform for economic stability in the future. But Labour
:01:03. > :01:08.points to what they call a crisis of living standards, with millions of
:01:09. > :01:11.us feeling the pinch. Could this be a case in which the politicians on
:01:12. > :01:14.both sides of the political divide are correct? The economy improves
:01:15. > :01:17.but living standards do not. What is clear is that we can see shape in
:01:18. > :01:21.the next election. The government will say the economy is growing and
:01:22. > :01:24.they are correct to say that. It is coming out of the slump and some of
:01:25. > :01:27.the indicators are looking good and that goes against what Labour has
:01:28. > :01:32.been saying in terms of austerity killing of the economy. For a lot of
:01:33. > :01:37.ordinary people, this is a service led growth that is driven partly by
:01:38. > :01:40.housing will stop and Labour is raising the issue that people have
:01:41. > :01:45.had a decade`long slump in earning is and for a lot of people they are
:01:46. > :01:48.not seeing this growth come into their pockets. There are other
:01:49. > :01:51.factors such as inflation coming into play but this is what we are
:01:52. > :01:56.going to year for the next 18 months. And also I suppose the only
:01:57. > :02:02.way in which living standards can get better is if we have above
:02:03. > :02:04.inflation wage increases which creates other demand problems and
:02:05. > :02:09.questions about how industrial relations will be in the next couple
:02:10. > :02:12.of years. One of the factors was that Britain did not lose as many
:02:13. > :02:15.jobs as was expected through the slump and one reason was because
:02:16. > :02:18.productivity has fallen and that will have an impact on growth as
:02:19. > :02:22.well. There are all sorts of interesting factors that come into
:02:23. > :02:27.this. Ultimately I would argue that unless the economy grows, no`one
:02:28. > :02:29.will have improvement in wages but the government had a challenge to
:02:30. > :02:33.make sure that some of the growth and extra money does get into
:02:34. > :02:37.everyone rather than stay in certain sectors at the top of that idea and
:02:38. > :02:42.Labour's job is to shout very loudly that it is not happening. That is
:02:43. > :02:46.one of the weaknesses that David Cameron sees, this whole narrative
:02:47. > :02:50.over the past couple of years, they are out of touch, they are posh and
:02:51. > :02:56.so on, and that is where Labour are going to go. It is clear from the
:02:57. > :02:59.polling that a lot of people see the Conservative Party as a party for
:03:00. > :03:02.the rich. Even when they like policies, they will not like them if
:03:03. > :03:09.it is attached to the Conservative Party. I would argue that they were
:03:10. > :03:14.wrong to cut the top reason of `` top rate of tax for political
:03:15. > :03:17.reasons, not economic reasons. I have seen a few apocalyptic thoughts
:03:18. > :03:21.from some people in the United States that the middle classes
:03:22. > :03:27.finished. Which is sort of similar to this kind of story. On the very
:03:28. > :03:33.day that some of these statistical numbers came out, I think they are
:03:34. > :03:36.noise, not a signal, these numbers, they do not tell the truth. The
:03:37. > :03:45.resolution foundation, a think tank in London which surprisingly thinks
:03:46. > :03:51.at this think tank, put out an exceptionally good analysis of the
:03:52. > :03:54.Anglo`American economy, they are so close in the way they approach the
:03:55. > :03:58.economy, they could almost be linked, showing in detail how the
:03:59. > :04:04.middle jobs, the middle jobs have just been hollowed out. Not just
:04:05. > :04:07.since the crash in 2008, it is a process that goes back to the start
:04:08. > :04:12.of the millennium and I would argue even further back than that. The
:04:13. > :04:16.recovery has been based on, and in this country in particular, a growth
:04:17. > :04:22.in jobs at the very low end of the spectrum and a growth in jobs, fewer
:04:23. > :04:25.number of easily, at the top end of the wage spectrum. In the middle
:04:26. > :04:33.where there are teachers, doctors even , some lawyers and journalists,
:04:34. > :04:39.people who would have thought, I can effortlessly middle`class, those
:04:40. > :04:42.jobs are disappearing. And until that is solved, and I don't know how
:04:43. > :04:47.the markets of that, it has to be solved by policy, determined policy
:04:48. > :04:52.from government, then the recovery is always going to feel like it is
:04:53. > :04:55.not there yet. No matter what the numbers, the statistical numbers
:04:56. > :04:59.say. This is one of the most interesting stories of the next few
:05:00. > :05:01.years and generations. There is something going on here which is
:05:02. > :05:08.some kind of major shift from everything we have seen after 1945
:05:09. > :05:14.which is the decline of the middle`class. Absolutely. We are
:05:15. > :05:18.talking about the UK recovery and look at the figures, but what is it
:05:19. > :05:27.based on? You realise there is this miniboom in the housing market. But
:05:28. > :05:32.benefiting the highest class and the middle`class is are leaving London
:05:33. > :05:41.because they cannot afford to live there. And so it is going to provoke
:05:42. > :05:46.a real social, social logical problem. It is also benefiting those
:05:47. > :05:50.who are older because obviously the 20`year`old who had an aspiration to
:05:51. > :05:55.purchase his own house 20 of 30 years ago could fulfil that possibly
:05:56. > :06:03.rapidly compared to now. It is much more difficult now. Absolutely.
:06:04. > :06:11.There is an interesting debate, it is more political than economic, and
:06:12. > :06:14.an American economist at about it this week. He talked about the plot
:06:15. > :06:24.against France because as you know, in the recent days, France was
:06:25. > :06:31.downgraded once more from A+ to a. If you look at the numbers, it is
:06:32. > :06:42.quite mediocre. Like everyone else in Europe. France has refused to go
:06:43. > :06:47.down the austerity route, which George Osborne and David Cameron are
:06:48. > :06:53.so proud of. It has done exactly the opposite, they refused to dismantle
:06:54. > :06:58.the safety net and to protect the poor by tax increases rather than
:06:59. > :07:06.spending cuts. It is ideological, rather than economic all, it is an
:07:07. > :07:09.interesting one because the poor in France and the middle`class these
:07:10. > :07:18.are more protected than in the US. `` economical. I don't agree. What
:07:19. > :07:21.you are hearing is conservatism being expressed on the left, not the
:07:22. > :07:27.right, and it is a nest Alger for the traditional past. Journalism is
:07:28. > :07:31.not dying, there are more journalists than they used to be.
:07:32. > :07:34.What is dying of some of the old traditional forms not delivering the
:07:35. > :07:38.news and the content, such as newspapers and there is a struggle
:07:39. > :07:46.to figure out how to monetise it. What is dying is getting paid for
:07:47. > :07:51.some of it. There are new forms such as Buzzfeed. It is a change and
:07:52. > :07:56.shift. London is growing, it is growing very, very fast. London is
:07:57. > :07:59.also driving the growth in the British economy and that is
:08:00. > :08:02.delivered partly by the housing boom which is a factor and a concern that
:08:03. > :08:07.the government should not be feeling it, but also by the success of
:08:08. > :08:10.service industry and Britain is incredibly successful and a service
:08:11. > :08:21.led economy and that service ranges from everything such as city
:08:22. > :08:26.finances and the country's incredible structure. In The
:08:27. > :08:29.Financial Times weekend edition, there is a picture about how
:08:30. > :08:35.big`city Christmas parties are back in fashion. `` a feature. There is
:08:36. > :08:41.no shame in the city. That is very clear. What would be really helpful,
:08:42. > :08:45.I offer this suggestion to the office of National distance takes,
:08:46. > :08:49.but start publishing these monthly and quarterly figures with London
:08:50. > :08:55.and the Home Counties separated from the rest of Britain. `` Office for
:08:56. > :08:58.National Statistics. So we can see in the new billet in that goes to
:08:59. > :09:03.economic correspondence and much of the growth in the British economy is
:09:04. > :09:14.generated out of this area. It is never reported the way you say.
:09:15. > :09:23.Scotland is doing well. That is true. House prices in 2012 continued
:09:24. > :09:26.to drop. Which is surprising. I have been up there and I thought it looks
:09:27. > :09:32.better here, but apparently some things are not so good. The point
:09:33. > :09:36.is, when we say service economy, what does it mean? The person who
:09:37. > :09:42.brings you your plate of food or the guy who is in a hedge fund office in
:09:43. > :09:46.Mayfair shifting money around? There doesn't that they are both in a
:09:47. > :09:51.service economy. It is the media, the technology sector, all of these
:09:52. > :09:57.are part of the service economy. One final point. Ian used the word
:09:58. > :10:03.nostalgia and conservatism for Francois Hollande. Why is he so
:10:04. > :10:09.unpopular? I am not saying he is on the right track. I can just saying
:10:10. > :10:15.that there are two ways of delaying the economy and I don't think one is
:10:16. > :10:26.better than the other. What is based on ideology. I quite like a country
:10:27. > :10:30.which, I mean, because we are talking spending cuts, it has a real
:10:31. > :10:35.effect. In London, my local library is closed. That has an impact on
:10:36. > :10:40.people's lives. Also, rubbish collection is now only collected
:10:41. > :10:44.once a week instead of three times per week, that had an impact on
:10:45. > :10:50.people's lives. The economy is booming in the UK, or at least in
:10:51. > :10:57.better condition, but the actual daily life is less good. Let's move
:10:58. > :11:01.on. Barack Obama's health care plans have suffered the most ignominious
:11:02. > :11:06.fate of a grand idea, trying to get into work proving a shambles. With
:11:07. > :11:09.his core domestic policy in trouble and strong criticism of his foreign
:11:10. > :11:17.policy, is Obama 's leadership in question, there is people on the
:11:18. > :11:24.left saying he is not leading. The latest is just the proof. There has
:11:25. > :11:29.been disgruntled amongst his initial supporters for a while, mostly over
:11:30. > :11:32.foreign policy issues, begin not like the dawn targeted killings that
:11:33. > :11:40.go on and a variety of what they would see as illegal actions
:11:41. > :11:44.overseas and they pinky caves easily easily in negotiations with the
:11:45. > :11:51.Republicans. `` they think he caves in. The affordable care act, Obama
:11:52. > :11:56.care, those of us who covered its creation knew from the get go that
:11:57. > :12:00.it was not just a dog 's dinner. It was a dog's breakfast, lunch and
:12:01. > :12:03.dinner, it was a dreadful piece of legislation that needed to be
:12:04. > :12:06.watched very carefully if it was going to be in play netted in a way
:12:07. > :12:11.that would deliver the benefits it was supposed to deliver. What has
:12:12. > :12:16.happened is the White House did not pay attention. This leads to the
:12:17. > :12:22.second point, which is really important to understand what is
:12:23. > :12:26.happening to Obama. `` second point. He has had a narrow circle of
:12:27. > :12:30.advisers around him and it has got narrower in the second term. Many of
:12:31. > :12:34.them do not have the political knowledge. It is one thing for the
:12:35. > :12:37.president to say, I don't want to do business the way Washington has been
:12:38. > :12:41.doing business for the last 20 years. Many people would agree with
:12:42. > :12:46.that. But he needs some advice as I who know how to do business. They do
:12:47. > :12:49.not. What is stunning is, if you are going to put your eggs in one
:12:50. > :12:55.basket, you have to look after the basket. That is absolutely right.
:12:56. > :13:01.What got him in trouble, it launched the computer systems crash. Some
:13:02. > :13:04.people who support Obama care were writing from their perches, this
:13:05. > :13:09.proves how successful it is. 50 million inquiries. Of course it
:13:10. > :13:13.crashes the computer system. Something worse happened this week.
:13:14. > :13:16.It emerged that one of his key campaign pledges, running for
:13:17. > :13:20.re`election, was, if you have health insurers already, you will be
:13:21. > :13:26.allowed to keep it. Unfortunately, under the law, that is not the case.
:13:27. > :13:30.A lot of policies are simply being cancelled because they do not need
:13:31. > :13:36.to be legislated demands of the new law. Until people are getting
:13:37. > :13:42.notices saying, you are no longer covered and he said it was, he said
:13:43. > :13:46.it over and over again. No`one on his staff took him aside and said,
:13:47. > :13:51.you know, bass, that is not entirely decayed and now he is paying the
:13:52. > :13:54.price. Even Bill Clinton is saying, you may have to read after this
:13:55. > :13:59.controversial piece of legislation in order to change that back to what
:14:00. > :14:04.you have said. I feel like saying, with the distance we have from
:14:05. > :14:09.Europe, don't throw the baby out with the bath water because the
:14:10. > :14:16.problem is not the idea. Sitting here, many more million Americans
:14:17. > :14:22.benefit from health insurance, they are a bare minimum. We don't know
:14:23. > :14:27.how lucky we are in the UK or France to have universal health care. I
:14:28. > :14:33.figured is very important and they should implemented now. `` I think
:14:34. > :14:40.it is very important. They are in a big mess but for administrative,
:14:41. > :14:48.almost technicalities, surely if it is an IT problem, there might be a
:14:49. > :14:53.solution. We should ask the NSA, perhaps they could resolve the
:14:54. > :14:55.problem. All governments are having huge problems at the moment in
:14:56. > :15:04.grappling how to develop a modern health care system, America has a
:15:05. > :15:07.very bad one. There are big problems in that, clearly Obama has fallen
:15:08. > :15:11.down, when you make big changes you have big troubles will stop
:15:12. > :15:15.government is very bad and we see this in many countries at doing big
:15:16. > :15:20.IT projects and here is one more example of that. In Britain, we have
:15:21. > :15:25.blown ?10 billion on 80p and resistant to unify the NHS which has
:15:26. > :15:32.been scrapped. We kind of have formed there. We cannot lecture
:15:33. > :15:41.them. The one saving grace is that... What we noticed is that
:15:42. > :15:44.accident and emergency in`hospital is in crisis and the doctors have
:15:45. > :15:49.realised that. In Britain, the government tried to make some moves,
:15:50. > :15:52.this became a political firestorm and they ended up with a bungled
:15:53. > :16:02.mishmash compromise ridden approach which has made matters worse.
:16:03. > :16:07.Everyone knows the problem. Our health care system was built for the
:16:08. > :16:13.1940s world of infant mortality, infectious diseases, fighting those.
:16:14. > :16:17.Now, we need to abide complex, long`term, multi`delivery care,
:16:18. > :16:24.often in the community rather than the old`fashioned hospitals. The
:16:25. > :16:29.shift to get from there to here is a painful process in a democracy, with
:16:30. > :16:34.so many vested interest, whether they are social, medical, political.
:16:35. > :16:38.We are seeing the same problem in every Western country.
:16:39. > :16:42.Canada, India and Mauritius have chosen to a boycott the Commonwealth
:16:43. > :16:48.head summit in Sri Lanka over the government's treatment of the Tamil
:16:49. > :16:52.minority. Is engagement the right policy, and what does the
:16:53. > :16:59.Commonwealth really mean it in this century? You are French, you admire
:17:00. > :17:08.that the former colonies have still got some relationship with dear old
:17:09. > :17:11.mother England? It is like former slaves meeting once a year to have
:17:12. > :17:18.tea with their master. The Commonwealth is a strange idea. You
:17:19. > :17:24.have a series of statements of good intentions, Prince Charles going for
:17:25. > :17:29.the first time. He will be the head of the Commonwealth one day. If it
:17:30. > :17:38.survives the next two years. What did they do? What is it for? In 20
:17:39. > :17:42.or 30 years past, I think it really worked towards the end of apartheid
:17:43. > :17:48.in South Africa, but today, why did they meet? It is a public relations
:17:49. > :17:51.disaster. Sri Lanka used the Commonwealth as a rehabilitation
:17:52. > :18:01.operation. They were quite astute and did that well. David Cameron had
:18:02. > :18:04.to go and let down Prince Charles. He said he was going to shine a
:18:05. > :18:10.spotlight on human rights and he went to the north of the country
:18:11. > :18:16.where he was received well. In the end, I don't know what the
:18:17. > :18:22.Commonwealth is for. America, obviously you could rejoin. Now that
:18:23. > :18:35.our authors are eligible for the man Booker prize... Former secretary
:18:36. > :18:41.generals of the Commonwealth always say it is great for dialogue. People
:18:42. > :18:48.have certain common cultural ties, including legal systems which are
:18:49. > :18:52.very similar. I've lived here long enough now to shed a lot of my
:18:53. > :18:56.American scepticism about why it continues. It seems a worthwhile
:18:57. > :19:04.organisation in a world where there aren't enough really effective
:19:05. > :19:10.talking shops for leaders to get together at a national level. The UN
:19:11. > :19:19.is poor at this now. It seems completely reasonable. Agnes's point
:19:20. > :19:24.about the colonial thing, we probably should discuss this in
:19:25. > :19:37.terms of Sri Lanka as well. It did bring pressure on Mugabe. It did not
:19:38. > :19:42.necessarily succeed. Shared history is not always terrible. With that,
:19:43. > :19:58.we can perhaps reason at a level that others cannot. IU pro
:19:59. > :20:11.Commonwealth? `` are you. Well, they have allowed Amanda in. `` Rwanda.
:20:12. > :20:16.And that was never a part of it. It is absurd on many levels. But I
:20:17. > :20:24.think it is easy to market and actually it is quite good. It is
:20:25. > :20:33.very different to the way that France sees a lot of Africa as its
:20:34. > :20:37.backyard. I would've said it was wrong the David Cameron two of gone
:20:38. > :20:41.to Sri Lanka. I don't think because of the pressure of other people
:20:42. > :20:48.kicking up and not going, I think his going has attracted far more
:20:49. > :20:54.going `` attention, and he's made sure the world has looked on much
:20:55. > :21:01.more closely at a horrible regime. If you wanted to make a stand, would
:21:02. > :21:07.you not have said, we will not hold it in Sri Lanka? People have known
:21:08. > :21:14.about these human rights abuse allegations. Do you think that will
:21:15. > :21:22.make any difference? There is more focus on it. Britain has kind of
:21:23. > :21:30.woken up any more public way, did `` but does it make any difference?
:21:31. > :21:34.Well, we've never talked so much about Sri Lanka and its abuse of
:21:35. > :21:39.human rights in the last two days. That's right. So there is an element
:21:40. > :21:43.of, you should we got it, no, you should engage. It is like the
:21:44. > :21:51.economy, there are two ways of going about it. Some people boycotted it
:21:52. > :22:00.and that forced others to engage in a much bigger way. Maybe that is a
:22:01. > :22:07.model for future. You would not find even an engaged American who knew
:22:08. > :22:14.about Sri Lanka at the end of the Civil War. That is despite ranking
:22:15. > :22:16.moon certifying that tens of thousands of civilians were shelved
:22:17. > :22:29.after being told to go to a safe area. `` despite Ban Ki`moon. At
:22:30. > :22:36.least on the left, there is a borough going cynicism now about
:22:37. > :22:45.Britain or the US preaching human rights to a country like Sri Lanka
:22:46. > :22:54.because of the tobacco in Iraq. `` the debacle. But it should be
:22:55. > :22:58.universal. We should be able to say, what you did should not be
:22:59. > :23:03.tolerated. Even this week in America, people are paying attention
:23:04. > :23:06.to what happened in Sri Lanka. It is a tough decision for the Prime
:23:07. > :23:13.Minister, but on balance I think he probably made the right decision by
:23:14. > :23:16.going. Prince Charles is 65, there is a lot of press coverage about
:23:17. > :23:23.that here and elsewhere, some of which is saying that 65 is when you
:23:24. > :23:34.retire, but he is still not doing the job for which she was born. His
:23:35. > :23:38.birthday was two days ago and listening to the BBC news, that was
:23:39. > :23:48.the biggest item. Why should we talk about his Earth Day? `` birthday? I
:23:49. > :23:57.guess there is a transition now. I think we can say this, the head of
:23:58. > :24:04.state, the Queen, is 87. She is now delegating to the king in waiting.
:24:05. > :24:10.It will be a momentous moment in Britain, although obviously it is
:24:11. > :24:18.quite quaint, seen from the view of the French Republic. He will become
:24:19. > :24:26.King and then we will see. Will Australia or even Canada remain? I'm
:24:27. > :24:31.not sure. Do you take the view that he has handled this difficult
:24:32. > :24:41.non`job well? Would you think, it can't be that difficult to be be
:24:42. > :24:45.aired to the throne? `` heir. I think here's lived the 65 years in
:24:46. > :24:52.the public days, worldwide, not just here. He's done some things that I
:24:53. > :24:55.would have problems with, such as his intervention with government
:24:56. > :25:01.business or promotion of alternative medicine. But he also campaigned for
:25:02. > :25:06.the environment, promoted racial integration in this country and
:25:07. > :25:15.youth employment way ahead of other political figures. So he has used
:25:16. > :25:20.the platform. Yes, some I agree with and some I won't, but he's used the
:25:21. > :25:23.platform skilfully. I think that is why actually Barry is not much fuss
:25:24. > :25:32.being made about some of these issues now. `` actually there is.
:25:33. > :26:05.That's it from us by now. We're back at the same time next week.
:26:06. > :26:14.I'm afraid there will be a lot of cloud this weekend, producing not
:26:15. > :26:17.too much rain initially, but, where the cloud breaks, there is a