:00:00. > :00:00.That is the summary of the news. There is a full bulletin at 12 but
:00:00. > :00:25.now it is time for Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:26. > :00:28.London. Could an interim agreement on Iran's nuclear programme be
:00:29. > :00:34.within the grasp of negotiators this weekend? Three inquiries into the
:00:35. > :00:38.Reverend Paul Flowers and how he became chairman of the Co`op Bank.
:00:39. > :00:42.The Labour party and the government face questions over their handling
:00:43. > :00:45.of the scandal. And should those who carried out killings during the
:00:46. > :00:48.Troubles in Northern Ireland be brought to justice, or is it time
:00:49. > :00:53.for a South Africa style truth and reconciliation commission? Joining
:00:54. > :00:57.me to discuss this are Owen Jones from The Independent Newspaper.
:00:58. > :01:04.Abdel Bari Atwan an Arab Writer. Maria Maragaronis of The Nation and
:01:05. > :01:14.Thomas Keilinger of Die Welt. Thank you. The foreign ministers of six
:01:15. > :01:17.major powers, including the US Secretary of State John Kerry are
:01:18. > :01:20.returning to Geneva, hoping to reach an interim agreement on Iran's
:01:21. > :01:23.nuclear programme. The negotiations have resumed after the bombing of
:01:24. > :01:26.the Iranian embassy in Beirut which killed 23 people. So what are the
:01:27. > :01:29.prospects of a breakthrough and what would the impact be on Iran's
:01:30. > :01:37.relations with the West and with its neighbours in the Middle East?
:01:38. > :01:45.Abdul, let me start with you. It does seem as if there are signs of a
:01:46. > :01:50.possible deal. I believe so. Two weeks ago they met in Geneva and we
:01:51. > :01:56.were about to witness a celebration of reaching this interim agreement
:01:57. > :02:03.but the French foreign minister delayed the whole thing. Iran made
:02:04. > :02:06.some concessions. They said, we are not insisting on the West
:02:07. > :02:15.recognising our right to have enrichment, so we can find some way
:02:16. > :02:20.around that but the problem is whether the western side is united
:02:21. > :02:26.this time, if the French are joining the ranks of the Americans, British
:02:27. > :02:31.and Germans and others and stop putting a very difficult conditions
:02:32. > :02:41.on the Iran Ian 's. Iran says they would like the trust and to reach an
:02:42. > :02:54.agreement. The first one is what to do with the enriched uranium and
:02:55. > :02:59.also a nuclear plant supposed to be finished in 2060. I believe
:03:00. > :03:07.everybody would like to avoid war, this is the most important thing. ``
:03:08. > :03:12.2016. The West want a reconciliation and this will be the trigger to
:03:13. > :03:19.reach this agreement. William Hague is saying it has to be a deal the
:03:20. > :03:32.whole world can have confidence in. Will the Saudis have an equally open
:03:33. > :03:37.attitude as the Israelis? A lot of unanswered questions. The desire for
:03:38. > :03:46.peace is overwhelming but sometimes a desire overwhelms the practical
:03:47. > :03:52.difficulties on the ground. Key to peace and security is ending the
:03:53. > :03:57.counter`productive isolation of Iran. Western foreign policy has
:03:58. > :04:00.been so counter`productive, not least one of the great legacies of
:04:01. > :04:07.the war in Iraq was the strengthening of Iranians influence.
:04:08. > :04:11.It was fascinating chewing the build`up to the vote in Britain if
:04:12. > :04:17.there should be military intervention in Syria is one of the
:04:18. > :04:23.proposals Ed Miliband came up with and it was in the aftermath of the
:04:24. > :04:30.new collection of a Iranian president. One of the reasons the
:04:31. > :04:40.regime has seen their fate so closely tied to the Syrian regime is
:04:41. > :04:46.because of their isolation. Unless they have a deal here on the nuclear
:04:47. > :04:53.programme, it will be impossible to get a negotiated peace settlement in
:04:54. > :05:01.Syria. We have a terrible war going on in Syria which has now become a
:05:02. > :05:13.Civil War but with a fragmented opposition on one side. My question
:05:14. > :05:19.really would be how tied in to the Iran talks is Syria? In what respect
:05:20. > :05:31.is it on the table? Dave West realised that military intervention
:05:32. > :05:38.will not cause `` solve problems. The emphasis in the Middle East is
:05:39. > :05:43.changing. Now they realise that in Syria, for example, who is
:05:44. > :05:49.dominating the whole scene there? It is Al`Qaeda and other radical list
:05:50. > :05:54.groups. The priority for the West is not to topple Assad but to face
:05:55. > :06:01.these kinds of organisations, radical organisations in Syria. This
:06:02. > :06:07.pushed the West to talk to Iran and these talks could solve some
:06:08. > :06:15.problems and that is why now the Americans said, OK, we have had
:06:16. > :06:25.enough or was in the middle east. Let us look at things in a different
:06:26. > :06:35.way. Is well says Iran is a danger to the Wolves `` Israel. But this is
:06:36. > :06:43.an interim agreement. It is a small staging post. There is a long way to
:06:44. > :06:50.go in this. This is a problem that stretches back to the Iranian
:06:51. > :06:55.revolution. There has been a realisation that the position with
:06:56. > :07:03.Iran is completely untenable. The Syrian crisis has put that into
:07:04. > :07:10.focus because unless we have a situation to have a negotiated
:07:11. > :07:18.settlement including the Saudi sponsors of rebels and others in one
:07:19. > :07:22.room, unless we have a situation where the isolation of Iran is
:07:23. > :07:31.ended, that far`fetched negotiation with Syria is impossible. The
:07:32. > :07:39.settlement in Iran will allow them to look big in being a provider of
:07:40. > :07:45.peaceful kinds of settlements. You mentioned the Saudis are unhappy
:07:46. > :07:52.about this deal as are the Israelis. Is there a danger that a deal could
:07:53. > :07:58.have unforeseen consequences? You have to face this danger and still
:07:59. > :08:02.go ahead with it. Damn the consequences because there are so
:08:03. > :08:08.many other issues which you need to get to grips with and you cannot
:08:09. > :08:17.even begin to think about Syria unless you solve Iran. America has
:08:18. > :08:22.washed its hands of Syria. Syria is a problem for the local adjacent
:08:23. > :08:36.countries to solve but they are looking at Iran as their prime...
:08:37. > :08:41.You said it is an interim agreement but what is more important than bad
:08:42. > :08:47.is that for the first time Iran will sign an agreement and once they are
:08:48. > :09:00.engaged in talks, it does not stop. I think this is the meaning of it.
:09:01. > :09:07.So positive today! So optimistic! Is it a significant step, reaching out?
:09:08. > :09:11.Of course but although we can be optimistic, it is very difficult for
:09:12. > :09:17.me to be optimistic about Syria which is being described as a proxy
:09:18. > :09:25.war where you have on the one side the US, Israel rebel forces and on
:09:26. > :09:34.the other side, Iran, Assad and Hezbollah. That such chaos on the
:09:35. > :09:41.ground on Syria, so much suffering that I worry I'll be seeing these
:09:42. > :09:46.two processes not working together but almost against each other so we
:09:47. > :09:54.have people negotiating in Geneva by continuing a proxy war in Syria. The
:09:55. > :10:00.Saudis felt they were let down by the Americans for the last four
:10:01. > :10:06.years. They've put the Saudis under the impression that they were
:10:07. > :10:12.willing to bomb the Iranian nuclear installations so they spent more
:10:13. > :10:19.than $100 billion to buy the most sophisticated American weapons so
:10:20. > :10:30.they could participate in this way, defending themselves from any
:10:31. > :10:36.Iranian reaction or retaliation. The Saudis are furious. They are forming
:10:37. > :10:44.some sort of alliance with Israel, with France, to model the water.
:10:45. > :10:50.Whether they will succeed, we do not know. There were some realisation
:10:51. > :10:53.that a war with Iran would be a catastrophe not simply because of
:10:54. > :11:01.these are the disastrous interventions in Iraq and Libya,
:11:02. > :11:06.which is now descending into abject chaos, but because it would
:11:07. > :11:15.completely destabilise Iraq which has already been destabilised by
:11:16. > :11:18.what is happening in Syria but would detonate a whole chain reaction of
:11:19. > :11:28.events right across the middle east. The Americans are not stupid
:11:29. > :11:31.and they have learned that if they were to engage in any form of
:11:32. > :11:38.conflict with Iran, it would detonate the entire region. We will
:11:39. > :11:42.leave that there because I want to move on and the Reverend Paul
:11:43. > :11:47.Flowers has been arrested and released on bail by police
:11:48. > :11:51.investigating the supply of drugs. Revelations about his past has
:11:52. > :11:57.sparked a bitter political row about how he became chairman of the Co`op
:11:58. > :12:01.bank despite little experience. Labour have come under pressure over
:12:02. > :12:05.its links with Mr Flowers but there are questions for the government
:12:06. > :12:16.also as ministers supported the banks failed attempt to take over
:12:17. > :12:20.parts of Lloyds bank. A lot of allegations about how close the
:12:21. > :12:24.Labour leadership had been to Mr Flowers. There is a historic
:12:25. > :12:30.relationship between the Labour Party and co`operative movement, it
:12:31. > :12:37.goes back to the beginning of the 20th century. Labour MPs often stand
:12:38. > :12:42.as Labour and corporative MPs said that is one of the reasons they have
:12:43. > :12:49.been dragged into it. The emphasis in this ever more sordid revelations
:12:50. > :12:55.of Paul Flowers, I found distasteful. The question should be
:12:56. > :13:00.how did a man so incompetent" the head of the Co`operative Bank which
:13:01. > :13:07.was supposed to be different and ethical. Given the focus on the
:13:08. > :13:14.relationship with Labour, the Tory MP David Davis said there were
:13:15. > :13:18.questions the Chancellor had to ask because they were pushing for the
:13:19. > :13:29.Co`operative Bank to take over hundreds of branches of Lloyds. What
:13:30. > :13:41.we are seeing here is the Lynton Crosby approach to politics. They
:13:42. > :13:53.will focus on the links to unions, and this is just... The principal
:13:54. > :13:59.question has to be how an industrious society with layers of
:14:00. > :14:07.vetting process can allow a man with no idea about banking become
:14:08. > :14:10.chairman of a bank. I am reminded in a sense that this is the whole
:14:11. > :14:17.culture that used to be reigning supreme in Britain before the big
:14:18. > :14:26.bang went in a city bankers with meat for lunches and then continued
:14:27. > :14:30.to discuss things over golf. Any other ordinary post that you may
:14:31. > :14:36.aspire to in Britain, you have to face hundreds and hundreds of papers
:14:37. > :14:43.and deep, personal questions and here on the top etching on the slip
:14:44. > :14:47.through the net, a nod and a wink and that is all that is needed. The
:14:48. > :14:59.absence of questions being asked is a huge case of negligence. It will
:15:00. > :15:08.fuel the disenchantment people feel towards the system. It is
:15:09. > :15:17.astonishing. It is revolting, it really is. This is a man who was
:15:18. > :15:22.appointed in the spring of 2010 after the banking crisis. When does
:15:23. > :15:29.this come out? Not when the Co`op Bank is losing so much money, not
:15:30. > :15:34.when there is always `` all these problems happening, but when the
:15:35. > :15:39.Daily Mail runs a video clip of Paul Flowers allegedly buying cocaine in
:15:40. > :15:45.a car. This is the beginning of the election campaign, for 2015. It is
:15:46. > :15:50.still 2013. This is a real change in British politics, that we are
:15:51. > :15:55.starting this campaign now, and it is beginning to come thick and fast.
:15:56. > :15:58.This morning we had talked of corruption in ethnic communities,
:15:59. > :16:05.whatever that means. What is going on? But this is a man who, when he
:16:06. > :16:09.appeared in front of the Treasury committee, said the assets of his
:16:10. > :16:19.bank were about ?3 billion. It was ?47 billion. It seems we have heard
:16:20. > :16:22.so much about not letting this banking crisis happen again, the
:16:23. > :16:34.must be a astonishment at how he has slipped the net. I am stunned to be
:16:35. > :16:37.honest. And how this man became a member of the business advisory
:16:38. > :16:58.committee to add Miliband, how he could not discover that. `` add
:16:59. > :17:03.Miliband. `` Ed Miliband. How Ed Miliband and his advisor could not
:17:04. > :17:11.spot but this man is useless, I am surprised. This is the cream of the
:17:12. > :17:15.Labour Party. So why let him actually in? The other point is, it
:17:16. > :17:27.seems nowadays that the Daily Mail is the pacemaker for all of us. The
:17:28. > :17:33.right wing papers are controlling the agenda. The reason the Tories
:17:34. > :17:42.have seized on this is that they are so used to being portrayed as the
:17:43. > :17:47.party of the bankers, so they have gone, now here `` we have a dodgy
:17:48. > :17:53.banker we can implicate labour in. But I suppose just a warning in the
:17:54. > :17:59.run`up to this General Election is, as we talk the Attorney`General has
:18:00. > :18:05.spoken about corruption among ethnic minorities as he puts it. We have
:18:06. > :18:11.had vans telling immigrants to go home, these are the sorts of tactics
:18:12. > :18:21.which the Lynton Crosby strategist totally focuses on. I hope you
:18:22. > :18:35.remind the Attorney`General that Mr Flowers is not from the minorities.
:18:36. > :18:40.We must leave that there. On Panorama this week former members
:18:41. > :18:46.of the British Army unit in Northern Ireland claimed they had shot and
:18:47. > :18:48.armed civilians during the 1970s. Northern Ireland's Director of
:18:49. > :18:51.Public Prosecutions has said criminal offences may have been
:18:52. > :18:54.committed and the police should investigate. Northern Ireland's
:18:55. > :19:00.Attorney`General said there should be an end to prosecutions for
:19:01. > :19:06.killings during the Lynton Crosby. What about South Africa style truth
:19:07. > :19:13.and reconciliation `` reconciliation commission? Good this work in
:19:14. > :19:14.Northern Ireland? We have to talk about the programme and the
:19:15. > :19:21.revelations about the military reaction force. It was one of those
:19:22. > :19:26.moments you were shocked but not surprised. People have known the
:19:27. > :19:31.sort of thing went on for a long time, but it was nevertheless
:19:32. > :19:34.shocking that people said their job was to shoot people that needed
:19:35. > :19:41.shooting, and admitting to shooting and and civilians. They appeared on
:19:42. > :19:46.camera even though supposedly their identities were concealed. I think
:19:47. > :19:49.when you have those kinds of revelations, and relatives of
:19:50. > :19:54.victims of the shooting started about how they are still seeking
:19:55. > :19:58.justice 40 years later, you cannot suspend prosecutions, you cannot say
:19:59. > :20:01.we are just going to draw a line under this and move on. But at the
:20:02. > :20:04.same time prosecutions are never going to be enough in a situation
:20:05. > :20:08.like this. You do have to understand that different people live these
:20:09. > :20:15.things in different ways from different odds of you, which are all
:20:16. > :20:20.valid and real. `` different points of view. You have a have a personal
:20:21. > :20:24.process where people speak to each other and above all listen to each
:20:25. > :20:28.other. What I would imagine with either very difficult, never perfect
:20:29. > :20:33.but both possible process would be to follow justice through as far as
:20:34. > :20:38.is possible, really follow it through, and we have seen lately the
:20:39. > :20:44.prosecutions of Britain in ten year over torture in can you. There is a
:20:45. > :20:50.case pending in Cyprus about torture and the anti`colonial risings there.
:20:51. > :20:55.And then you have a real reconciliation process which aims at
:20:56. > :20:59.hearing everybody's points of view and having people feel they have
:21:00. > :21:01.been heard. Do you think you can have justice over events that
:21:02. > :21:15.happened in a very different era, decades ago? The rising in Kenyon
:21:16. > :21:17.was very much `` the uprising in Kenyon was far longer ago. The
:21:18. > :21:21.problem in Northern Ireland is it was a civil war, and it is difficult
:21:22. > :21:34.to find the evidence required. In Kenyon it was suppressed, Cork,
:21:35. > :21:40.country. `` it was a quote, suppressed country. In Northern
:21:41. > :21:45.Ireland, people committed crimes on either side and they do not want to
:21:46. > :21:49.come clean. And yet I agree, that some healing process has to happen.
:21:50. > :21:53.But if prosecutions have hit the buffers so far in not been able to
:21:54. > :21:58.bring certain cases to justice, you have to ask yourself, how do we
:21:59. > :22:02.proceed? To continue to call for justice is wonderful, but it does
:22:03. > :22:07.not heal the soul because you need some sort of coming together on this
:22:08. > :22:15.issue, so for the community to really declare peace for their own
:22:16. > :22:20.soul rather than for justice. If we are looking for reconciliation, you
:22:21. > :22:29.have to forget about many things, for example Arafat used to be the
:22:30. > :22:37.arch terrorist in in `` in Israelis' eyes, so cannot say we
:22:38. > :22:50.continue this prosecution process. We have two follow that set of
:22:51. > :22:54.examples of South Africa. South Africa did a brilliant president for
:22:55. > :23:03.all of us, so we need to `` so we have two follow it. Close the book
:23:04. > :23:06.of the past and look for the future. The truth and reconciliation process
:23:07. > :23:10.in South Africa was credited with helping to avoid all`out civil war,
:23:11. > :23:18.were victims of atrocities committed under apartheid could hear the
:23:19. > :23:21.truth. The point I was make is that Northern Ireland, the simmering
:23:22. > :23:26.anger and resentment still remains. We have recently had disenfranchised
:23:27. > :23:33.working trust loyalists rioting in the streets, but the point I think
:23:34. > :23:37.has to be investigated is state coalition for example with
:23:38. > :23:41.loyalist, we need to be looking at the role of the Army. Bloody
:23:42. > :23:47.Sunday, the massacre from 1972 is the most high`profile of those
:23:48. > :23:49.atrocities, but the reason it is important to get that truth out is
:23:50. > :23:55.British involvement in other countries, we have in Iraq ongoing
:23:56. > :23:58.investigations into the actions of British soldiers, unless we have
:23:59. > :24:02.light on what happened in for example Northern Ireland, it will be
:24:03. > :24:06.very difficult to avoid those sorts of atrocities happening again
:24:07. > :24:16.whether British Army is committed again. I agree, but Northern Ireland
:24:17. > :24:23.is a unique case because you have this huge hurt which each side
:24:24. > :24:27.committed towards the others, and if you have a truth and reconciliation
:24:28. > :24:32.committee you have to be prepared to call a halt to prosecutions. And
:24:33. > :24:36.that is the key question, are the Northern Ireland people ready to
:24:37. > :24:42.forgive and to let it go for the purpose of finding a sort of
:24:43. > :24:48.community. But the people never forgive when their loved ones have
:24:49. > :24:52.been killed in those ways. But the simmering resentment is like a set
:24:53. > :25:01.`` festering cancer which eats away at the community. It is for the next
:25:02. > :25:05.generation. It is not for the people living now who have lost their loved
:25:06. > :25:11.ones. We need amnesty, we need it in
:25:12. > :25:15.Northern Ireland. But in maybe not for this generation. `` maybe not
:25:16. > :25:20.for this generation. Thank you all very much indeed. But
:25:21. > :25:28.is it for this week. You can comment on this programme on Twitter. We are
:25:29. > :25:32.back next week at the same time, but for no good.
:25:33. > :25:57.`` but for now, goodbye. Not a bad weekend of whether
:25:58. > :26:01.in`store, although it was chilly first thing this morning. The frost