:00:00. > :00:00.There is a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC
:00:00. > :00:22.News, Dateline London, with Gavin Esler.
:00:23. > :00:28.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. The battle for Fallujah,
:00:29. > :00:31.this time in 2014. Is the invasion of Iraq more than a decade ago
:00:32. > :00:36.resulting in the country falling apart now?
:00:37. > :00:40.Do fears about immigration mean it is time to re-think the EU's core
:00:41. > :00:43.policy of free movement of labour? And is the President of France
:00:44. > :00:48.entitled to a degree of privacy in what he claims is his private life?
:00:49. > :00:51.My guests today are: Jef McAllister, who is an American writer and
:00:52. > :00:55.broadcaster. Annette Dittert of Germany's ARD. Nabila Ramdani, who
:00:56. > :01:04.is an Algerian writer. And Ian Birrell, of the Daily Mail.
:01:05. > :01:10.The battle for Fallujah a decade or so ago was one of the turning points
:01:11. > :01:13.in the American attempt to deal with Sunni insurgents in Iraq. Now there
:01:14. > :01:16.is a new battle for Fallujah, as the Baghdad government tries to
:01:17. > :01:19.establish its authority. Is the hard truth that in 2014, Iraq, like
:01:20. > :01:21.Syria, is facing a sectarian war, a strengthened presence among
:01:22. > :01:25.extremist groups and a future in which the
:01:26. > :01:33.how do you see what is going on? The current situation in Iraq, like
:01:34. > :01:39.Syria, is horrific and there has been a state of perpetual conflict
:01:40. > :01:46.since the US-led invasion in 2003 in Iraq. The figures of the number of
:01:47. > :01:52.Iraqi people who died since 2003 speak for themselves, they are quite
:01:53. > :01:58.a grim grommet and evidence of what a disaster the Iraq war was from
:01:59. > :02:04.start to finish -- barometer. More than half a million died since 2003.
:02:05. > :02:10.2013 was the most lethal year as far as the figure of the people is
:02:11. > :02:16.concerned with more than 9,000 people, and more than 250 people
:02:17. > :02:23.since January. This is an indication of the horror following the invasion
:02:24. > :02:29.and the nature of who is fighting who. These things take a long time
:02:30. > :02:34.to work out, do you think what we are seeing is ultimately a drawing
:02:35. > :02:42.up of the boundaries the imperial powers imposed and that as a state,
:02:43. > :02:53.Iraq and Syria do not function, so we will see a Sunni area, a Shia
:02:54. > :02:56.area? We are seeing that already. The country looks to be on the brink
:02:57. > :03:08.of a sectarian war and the Civil War, Iraqis against Iraqis. Tensions
:03:09. > :03:14.are very much around a Shia led government, US backed. Which is not
:03:15. > :03:19.effective, massively corrupt, and marginalises the majority of Sunni
:03:20. > :03:25.Arabs. And the resurgence of Al-Qaeda fighters in groups like the
:03:26. > :03:35.Islamic state of Iraq and the love font practice in Iraq fighting and
:03:36. > :03:39.in Syria. -- Levant. The complex of feeding each other. I was struck by
:03:40. > :03:46.the comments and Colin -- by Colin Powell, if you break it, you own it.
:03:47. > :03:53.At the contribution of the Americans has been to get out and to say I'm a
:03:54. > :03:55.sort it out. -- but the contribution. The stupidity is
:03:56. > :04:00.becoming more apparent and it has opened up changes, it has listed the
:04:01. > :04:09.power of Iran. It has widened divisions between the Sunni and the
:04:10. > :04:11.Shia across the region. There is a weakening of America 's relationship
:04:12. > :04:18.with Saudi Arabia which is significant. Iraq is not yet Syria,
:04:19. > :04:29.Syria is in a worse state. 100 times worse. There is crude politics of a
:04:30. > :04:33.central government imposing its will on the country. We are seeing the
:04:34. > :04:37.same thing across the region, the unleashing of forces of
:04:38. > :04:41.sectarianism. And it shows the stupidity of the invasion and the
:04:42. > :04:48.weakness of the West, the UN and everyone else, to be engaged. You
:04:49. > :04:52.have proxy wars going on across the region fought by lots of different
:04:53. > :04:59.players and it is impossible to see how it will end except badly for the
:05:00. > :05:02.people living in these regions. How do people in Washington see this?
:05:03. > :05:07.The American public is perhaps different, but this is the year when
:05:08. > :05:11.withdrawal was taking place from which -- from Afghanistan, we are
:05:12. > :05:18.told that has gone well and they are getting out will stop anybody
:05:19. > :05:23.looking out -- they are getting out. Anybody looking at recent history
:05:24. > :05:29.may say that is not the case. The mood in the US, it did we have
:05:30. > :05:36.anything to do with this? -- did we. Almost a wilful attempt to forget
:05:37. > :05:41.and to move on because it is a mess. There is a sense among policymakers
:05:42. > :05:46.that they made all contributed to the mass at there is no idea of what
:05:47. > :05:57.to do next so people have given up -- MS, at there is no idea. -- a
:05:58. > :06:00.mess. We need to do more than what we are doing to change things and
:06:01. > :06:05.there is no appetite for that and did not work well first time.
:06:06. > :06:11.Afghanistan is not is excess but there is no will to stay longer than
:06:12. > :06:19.necessary -- a success. Have we created more centuries for a trader
:06:20. > :06:24.-- for Al-Qaeda? In Syria, they are looking for Americans who are
:06:25. > :06:28.fighting to send them back for terror in countries because they
:06:29. > :06:34.will look the part. We have unleashed a can of worms and there
:06:35. > :06:41.is a sense of regret and some people feel guilt in the US that we have
:06:42. > :06:47.done wrong, but there is no political willingness to do more.
:06:48. > :06:53.The 21st century started with optimism and the words liberal
:06:54. > :07:01.intervention, people did think they were doing good things. Even with
:07:02. > :07:04.President Obama and in the case of Afghanistan, that is probably worse
:07:05. > :07:09.for him personally because this was his war when he came to map -- when
:07:10. > :07:14.he came to power, he said Iraq was wrong, we will do it right in
:07:15. > :07:19.Afghanistan. At the end of this year, he will pull out and not have
:07:20. > :07:25.this important bilateral security detail he wanted to have with
:07:26. > :07:28.President Karzai. The rest -- the relationship with him is getting
:07:29. > :07:34.frosty. The former Defence Secretary will publish next week a book where
:07:35. > :07:39.he will accuse President Obama of having no strategy with Afghanistan.
:07:40. > :07:47.He says they have traced to oust President Karzai in 20 -- in 2009.
:07:48. > :07:54.There will be no orderly retreat, there will rather bleak been no
:07:55. > :07:58.bilateral security deal -- there will be. So some sense of military
:07:59. > :08:04.presence is not secure so this could be the next big thing waiting to
:08:05. > :08:09.happen. Robert Gates is at the heart of American policy-making and he is
:08:10. > :08:14.scathing about the vice President, Joe Biden. It will damage the
:08:15. > :08:24.relationship with Afghanistan immensely. In the future, given the
:08:25. > :08:32.complexity of the players and what Saudi Arabia does, Turkish interests
:08:33. > :08:37.in Syria, will this play out over many years? Not just in Iraq and
:08:38. > :08:44.Syria but elsewhere will stop so the thing about the Arab Spring, --
:08:45. > :08:52.elsewhere. So the thing about the Arab Spring is also nonsense? The
:08:53. > :08:56.Syria case has moved it, it is a war I proxy. Syria has the elements of a
:08:57. > :09:02.nasty conflict, it is a sectarian war, it is a war by proxy, pitting
:09:03. > :09:07.Sunni against Shia. With Afghanistan, it is optimistic of
:09:08. > :09:12.David Cameron to save the mission of British troops will be completed
:09:13. > :09:16.when Britain leaves by the end of 2014. In Afghanistan, we will see
:09:17. > :09:23.sectarian divisions play out and regional influences play out in
:09:24. > :09:28.Afghanistan. Do you think that is what politicians have to say, the
:09:29. > :09:33.degree when they have inherited a conflict? -- Pittodrie. Because
:09:34. > :09:39.nobody wants to think troops have died in pain. So politicians will
:09:40. > :09:45.say it is for a good thing? Absolutely, more than 5,000 troops
:09:46. > :09:50.on the ground, written has spent more than $30 billion and 12 years
:09:51. > :09:55.later, people must see through that -- Britain. The country is still not
:09:56. > :10:03.stabilised, there is still corruption, and who will be army and
:10:04. > :10:09.city? -- the Army answer to. We have seen it in the United States, there
:10:10. > :10:11.is a reluctance to get involved abroad which the politicians
:10:12. > :10:18.understand because they hear it from constituents. There was a noble aim
:10:19. > :10:22.behind the right to protect which came out of the wonder genocide and
:10:23. > :10:30.the failure to intervene and there have been successes. -- Rwanda.
:10:31. > :10:35.Sierra Leone was a great success and what happened in Mali was welcomed
:10:36. > :10:39.by the people and was a noble intervention and very necessary. The
:10:40. > :10:48.tragedy is that you have this growing isolationism which you are
:10:49. > :10:51.seeing in America and Britain and across Europe and combined with this
:10:52. > :10:55.revolutionary process going on across North Africa, the Middle
:10:56. > :11:02.East, sub-Saharan Africa, Afghanistan, and we got used to be
:11:03. > :11:06.idea that revolutions were easy in 1989 with what happened in Eastern
:11:07. > :11:12.Europe. The revolutionary process is long and difficult and unpredictable
:11:13. > :11:16.and you combine that with sectarianism and other fact is, we
:11:17. > :11:21.are yet to see what will happen with Saudi Arabia -- factors. There has
:11:22. > :11:26.been a corrosive presence around the world. Things are going to happen
:11:27. > :11:31.and we are just at the beginning of a process.
:11:32. > :11:34.One of the core principles of the European Union is the free movement
:11:35. > :11:37.of labour, although as we have seen with Romania and Bulgaria in the
:11:38. > :11:40.past few years, there have been attempts to restrict that freedom at
:11:41. > :11:43.least for a time. Does the unease in Germany and Britain in particular
:11:44. > :11:46.over immigration mean it is now time to re-think some of the core
:11:47. > :11:49.principles of the European Union? There is great unease in Germany. We
:11:50. > :11:54.know what is happening here, but also Germany. It is interesting what
:11:55. > :12:01.has happened in Germany this week. This immigration debate was at a low
:12:02. > :12:07.turn but last week, there was a case of a remain young woman living in
:12:08. > :12:12.Germany for three years -- a Romanian. She applied for benefits
:12:13. > :12:16.and was denied and she went to the European Court and the European
:12:17. > :12:19.Commission yesterday morning at out a statement to say Germany cannot
:12:20. > :12:27.automatically deny that, which sparked a major pro in Germany. Not
:12:28. > :12:31.only in the right-wing parties but also in the party of Angela Merkel
:12:32. > :12:38.who said they could not interfere to that degree. This Rose to a point
:12:39. > :12:42.that the EU commission yesterday had to send out a spokesperson to
:12:43. > :12:48.clarify what they had wanted to say was not that automatically you have
:12:49. > :12:53.to pay out benefits, but that you have to look at the individual case
:12:54. > :12:58.closely. It was interesting as this debate has not been high profile in
:12:59. > :13:03.Germany. There is no anti-EU undercurrent. But it is a sensitive
:13:04. > :13:09.thing that even in a moderate country like Germany, the EU
:13:10. > :13:15.commission has to be very careful what they say and how they say it.
:13:16. > :13:21.You have written a lot about this. Supporting the idea of immigration
:13:22. > :13:25.is good for this country, would you accept, like the Labour Party, that
:13:26. > :13:34.is a difference big Queen freedom of Labour if you have a job? -- big
:13:35. > :13:41.difference between freedom of Labour. I do not accept that. Labour
:13:42. > :13:45.are panicking as the Tories and the Liberal Democrats have and they are
:13:46. > :13:50.doing anything to say, we understand, we are on your side.
:13:51. > :13:54.Polling shows that has not been a change in attitudes over 30 years.
:13:55. > :13:59.There has always been hostility to immigration on a national level and
:14:00. > :14:03.at a local and personal level, it is not a big political issue and that
:14:04. > :14:10.is not -- and people do not understand that. You saying that
:14:11. > :14:14.people think it is an issue for the country but if you ask them if it is
:14:15. > :14:21.an issue for them personally, they say it is not. 70% say it is an
:14:22. > :14:26.important issue for the country but personally, people are interested in
:14:27. > :14:31.the cost of living, jobs, housing, education and health. The benefits
:14:32. > :14:37.debate here before Christmas was a phantom debate. The new regulations
:14:38. > :14:43.that David Cameron presented in accordance with existing EU big
:14:44. > :14:47.elation is. In Germany, you do not have access to benefits for the
:14:48. > :14:54.first three months. That was nothing revolutionary. It is never about the
:14:55. > :15:02.policy. UKIP was running the debate. What they should be doing is
:15:03. > :15:05.standing firm and saying, we need decent border controls which we do
:15:06. > :15:11.not have, everybody ignores that, we will be tough on illegal
:15:12. > :15:16.immigration, which people ignore, and we will recognise there is a
:15:17. > :15:20.role for people coming here. They are hitting people like students who
:15:21. > :15:22.are popular and good for the economy because they are the only people
:15:23. > :15:41.they can attack. EU immigration was up 9% and
:15:42. > :15:44.politics is you have to it somehow. Colleges of further education have
:15:45. > :15:54.had a further drop in students. It is scrambling around. If you look at
:15:55. > :15:58.the statistics and the polls in the last ten years, they have
:15:59. > :16:06.contributed a net ?23 billion to the Exchequer, whereas British citizens
:16:07. > :16:10.have taken out ?604 billion because they take more benefits than the
:16:11. > :16:19.Polish. The Polish are contributing more taxes than taking at benefits.
:16:20. > :16:25.They are relatively good citizens. There are pockets where services may
:16:26. > :16:29.get overloaded in certain cities, but it is our rivers of blood speech
:16:30. > :16:35.still. There are 5 million Britons living abroad and we never hear
:16:36. > :16:43.anyone say, we do not want Britons in the Costa Del Sol. It is always
:16:44. > :16:47.the other way round. Also we were talking about the services used by
:16:48. > :16:50.immigrants. If you took every immigrant person out of providing
:16:51. > :17:00.those services, you would not have many services anyway. We have to
:17:01. > :17:08.reconsider the whole principles of the European Union, but it is a bit
:17:09. > :17:16.too late. It does not seem to be the case. One of the point was to allow
:17:17. > :17:22.freedom of movement across borders and that is good for individuals.
:17:23. > :17:27.This idea you can have a European a la carte menu is absurd and having
:17:28. > :17:33.countries picking what they like and blocking what they do not, it does
:17:34. > :17:40.not work like that. If you are going to accept a highly motivated
:17:41. > :17:43.architect, you have to accept underqualified people from Bulgaria
:17:44. > :17:48.and Romania because this is what the European Union was designed for. I
:17:49. > :17:52.have got many concerns over aspects of the European Union. It is
:17:53. > :17:59.incredibly wasteful, the drift towards federalism will not work.
:18:00. > :18:04.But one of the few good things about the European Union is it is about
:18:05. > :18:08.trying to have fair trade and free movement of labour and it would be
:18:09. > :18:13.crazy if we threw out the good things it was doing and kept the bad
:18:14. > :18:19.stuff. That will never happen anyway. That is what I find so risky
:18:20. > :18:24.about David Cameron's referendum strategy, that he keeps the hope up
:18:25. > :18:30.that they will be a renegotiation of some cornerstones of the EU, but
:18:31. > :18:35.that will never happen. Francois Hollande is said to be the least
:18:36. > :18:38.popular president in France's recent history, now after a magazine
:18:39. > :18:44.published he was having an affair with an actress he has threatened
:18:45. > :18:53.action. With such a high-profile figure, they must have all aspects
:18:54. > :18:56.of their character scrutinised. If a British politician was caught in
:18:57. > :19:01.similar circumstances, there would be a big row, but they would not be
:19:02. > :19:08.a lot of options to pursue legal action for privacy. It is attacking
:19:09. > :19:12.the right to privacy. He has been such a disastrous president and such
:19:13. > :19:17.a failure on the economic front, this might be the first thing he has
:19:18. > :19:20.done which might be remotely popular! But he manages to ruin even
:19:21. > :19:27.this by turning up with a motorcycle helmet and getting his croissants
:19:28. > :19:38.delivered by a security guard. Allegedly. He turns this into fires
:19:39. > :19:44.which sums him up. How do you think this is seen in France? A lot of
:19:45. > :19:49.reports I have heard hearsay French people I thinking he is not a great
:19:50. > :19:55.president, but he is entitled to a degree of privacy. What has changed
:19:56. > :20:01.in the coverage is the role in which the Internet cannot stop stories
:20:02. > :20:07.spreading around the world. Secondly, the media in France are
:20:08. > :20:11.less reverential and they are drawing justifiable links between
:20:12. > :20:18.the private life of a head of state and indeed his public life. He is
:20:19. > :20:23.very much somebody who is accountable and cannot claim the
:20:24. > :20:28.right to have a private life and certainly not using state money to
:20:29. > :20:32.carry out such a deceit and put his own security at risk. These are the
:20:33. > :20:39.discussions in the French are having at the moment. Whatever you think of
:20:40. > :20:44.his politics, he has never held himself up as a moral role model, he
:20:45. > :20:49.has never gone on about how wonderful marriage is. He cannot be
:20:50. > :20:55.accused of hypocrisy because this is not an area where he has shown any
:20:56. > :21:02.interest in discussing these matters publicly. The crucial element is the
:21:03. > :21:11.position of France's first lady. She is still entitled to hundreds and
:21:12. > :21:15.thousands of pounds on her five civil service staff and that is
:21:16. > :21:21.without considering luxurious accommodation, transport and her own
:21:22. > :21:27.bodyguards. There was a legal case against her last year, a complaint,
:21:28. > :21:31.for effectively stealing taxpayers' money because of her unofficial
:21:32. > :21:38.status in France. Francois Hollande is notoriously known for having an
:21:39. > :21:43.indecisive mind, but he will have to sort it out. I do not think the
:21:44. > :21:48.French will accept he will have two girlfriends and crucially who is he
:21:49. > :21:54.going to take to see the Pope at the end of the month? The problems of
:21:55. > :22:02.office. We know what happened to Bill Clinton. I covered that and I
:22:03. > :22:07.have a certain sympathy that leaders should have private lives, but in
:22:08. > :22:11.this case he is the president of a republic and it reveals something
:22:12. > :22:15.about his character. If the French want to forgive him, they are
:22:16. > :22:26.entitled to, but I think they should know. The idea that you could cast a
:22:27. > :22:34.net of privacy over Europe private life, I think he has to have it out.
:22:35. > :22:41.France is also in economic turmoil with unemployment rising, the cost
:22:42. > :22:46.of living and taxes being sky-high and clearly the president has his
:22:47. > :22:50.mind on other matters. It has been said time and time again that
:22:51. > :22:55.Nicolas Sarkozy was spending far too much time at the beginning of his
:22:56. > :23:00.presidency is speaking about his love life and achieved very little
:23:01. > :23:05.for France. It seems Francois Hollande is going down the same
:23:06. > :23:10.route, in spite of claiming he was offering an alternative to the
:23:11. > :23:17.vulgarity of the previous office. Some people said Angela Merkel makes
:23:18. > :23:20.eggs for her husband's breakfast and this was a revelation about her
:23:21. > :23:24.private life and some people said, she is just a little woman and other
:23:25. > :23:29.people said, she is keeping things together. In other words, you cannot
:23:30. > :23:35.draw a line between what is public and what is private when you use
:23:36. > :23:42.parts of your private life to create a political personality. Definitely,
:23:43. > :23:47.although she very rarely uses it. She tries to protect her modest
:23:48. > :23:54.lifestyle. You could also say, there I am, I do my shopping in the
:23:55. > :24:06.supermarket. She does all that? She does do all that, really. She even
:24:07. > :24:11.saves on her electricity, that is true. She is the least glamorous
:24:12. > :24:18.person in Europe. That is probably why she has been successful. Looe
:24:19. > :24:23.exactly. That is why when her telephone was hacked she said it was
:24:24. > :24:32.not interesting and I believe her. But she was still annoyed. Some
:24:33. > :24:36.politicians are happier to have their family life in the media
:24:37. > :24:40.because they want to be portrayed as family people. But once you start
:24:41. > :24:47.down that road you open yourself up to different scrutiny perhaps. You
:24:48. > :24:52.understand a politician and a leader better by understanding more of
:24:53. > :24:55.their private life. But in 15 years time we will not be having this
:24:56. > :24:59.debate because privacy will be a thing of the past because of
:25:00. > :25:05.technology. Even a fridge can monitor your movements. We are
:25:06. > :25:10.moving into a different era. The younger generation is more
:25:11. > :25:16.comfortable with it. The whole idea of privacy for humanity is going to
:25:17. > :25:22.change. One of the things that strikes me with the Clinton example
:25:23. > :25:27.is people could not believe the American people would forgive him
:25:28. > :25:30.and in the end they did. People are grown-ups between the different
:25:31. > :25:40.about what affects them and the stupidity of their leaders. I used
:25:41. > :25:46.to do the radio broadcasts and 60% of people said that. They can make a
:25:47. > :25:51.difference. Maybe it was dangerous to have an affair in office with an
:25:52. > :25:58.intern. It was not a high-class affair. We are back next week at the
:25:59. > :26:29.same time and you can comment on the programme on Twitter. Goodbye.
:26:30. > :26:30.A pretty decent weekend coming up all in all. Across the