:00:24. > :00:30.Hello and welcome to Dateline London. The world wakes up to the
:00:31. > :00:32.kidnapping of more than 200 Nigerian girls, so what can be done?
:00:33. > :00:35.Putin's triumphant arrival in Crimea.
:00:36. > :00:39.And Syrian rebels pull out of the centre of Homs. What does it mean
:00:40. > :00:41.for this endless and catastrophic war?
:00:42. > :00:43.My guests today are Vincent Magombe, of Africa Inform International,
:00:44. > :00:46.Irena Teranyuk, of BBC Global News, Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab
:00:47. > :00:53.writer, and David Aaronovitch, of The Times.
:00:54. > :00:56.It has taken more than three weeks, but finally, the Nigerian government
:00:57. > :00:59.and and the rest of the world has woken up to the horrific kidnapping
:01:00. > :01:04.of more than 200 girls by the extreme Islamist gunmen of Boko
:01:05. > :01:07.Haram. What can be done about Boko Haram and, in talking of selling
:01:08. > :01:15.young women into slavery, who do they think they are appealing to?
:01:16. > :01:28.What say what kind of movement are they? I think originally we thought
:01:29. > :01:33.we and Al`Qaeda tape of movement. But they seem to know becoming more
:01:34. > :01:41.notorious, in terms of the extremity of what they are doing. They had
:01:42. > :01:48.some support in the political frame in northern Nigeria, but we are no
:01:49. > :01:56.seeing that has ebbed away. I do not think they have any support at all.
:01:57. > :02:02.If anyone has any brains, it is high time they thought very hard about
:02:03. > :02:08.trying to do the right thing. They have to release these children. I
:02:09. > :02:23.lay fighting children, are they fighting governments? When we talk
:02:24. > :02:30.about Islamic extremists, are the associated with other groups in
:02:31. > :02:35.terms of the way the act? In the course of the war, at the very
:02:36. > :02:42.beginning, they were seen by many people, many rebel groups sprang up
:02:43. > :02:54.to fight the president, it started a long time ago, the original rebel
:02:55. > :03:05.group has lost its way. Talking about the Americans and Boko Haram,
:03:06. > :03:11.when we see Americans now going into Nigeria and doing a very critical
:03:12. > :03:17.job to help arrest Boko Haram suspects, we wonder where the
:03:18. > :03:27.international community has been? That really, we have had two years
:03:28. > :03:41.now the Americans using special forces. I wonder whether we have a
:03:42. > :03:47.plan right now. I get a lot of e`mails from people and a lot of
:03:48. > :03:54.people are saying, we're as the world media been? The president only
:03:55. > :04:00.confirmed the couple of days ago that this attack happened. That is
:04:01. > :04:05.when the abduction of the hundreds of schoolgirls became global news.
:04:06. > :04:11.The president seems to have run out of luck, but on the other hand,
:04:12. > :04:19.maybe know that there are British and American experts there talking
:04:20. > :04:24.about it, though that he is asking the American military to send Jones
:04:25. > :04:30.to locate the girls, we still do not know where they are, in a forest in
:04:31. > :04:34.the north of the country, 200 children and a continent which no
:04:35. > :04:42.givers jailed soldiers is now giving us child slaves, child's grades. It
:04:43. > :04:48.is horrific. The first Lady making that radio speech instead of her
:04:49. > :04:52.husband, she was seeing, the girls in the future, the education
:04:53. > :05:01.matters. We simply cannot allow this to happen. It is interesting because
:05:02. > :05:06.we heard about the campaign in Afghanistan from the little girl who
:05:07. > :05:18.was shot by the Taliban, there is this belief that education is very
:05:19. > :05:23.important for schoolgirls. Yes, but this group have nothing to really do
:05:24. > :05:30.with Islam. They are damaging the Islamic image. They have put out a
:05:31. > :05:44.very strong statement condemning them. They are doing this, I
:05:45. > :05:50.believe, because they are extremists and having followed Al`Qaeda for 20
:05:51. > :06:02.years, they have never engaged in this sort of activity. I believe
:06:03. > :06:09.those people are unique and they are doing this simply for publicity. We
:06:10. > :06:15.have to remember they are functioning and a very dangerous
:06:16. > :06:26.area. There are a lot of very unstable states around the. You can
:06:27. > :06:32.see VR also able to move freely in these places. Why has there not
:06:33. > :06:37.being any interest, people do not want to talk about that part of the
:06:38. > :06:43.world. In Libya, who is talking about the abduction of diplomats?
:06:44. > :06:49.What they have done will be rejected by the vast majority of Muslims, but
:06:50. > :06:55.the likes of the Taliban have taken a very strong line against women
:06:56. > :07:01.being educated. It is not confined to Africa. People will see it as a
:07:02. > :07:06.minority, but it does with exist within Islam, this wish that women
:07:07. > :07:17.do not get an education. About 50 years ago, there was a huge drive
:07:18. > :07:23.against women being educated, but these people disappeared. We are
:07:24. > :07:31.noticing it happening again, and parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
:07:32. > :07:40.These people are not against education, it is to do with Western
:07:41. > :07:52.education. They did not want them educated in a Western way. For this
:07:53. > :08:02.year, there are 1500 people killed by Boko Haram. They find the right
:08:03. > :08:06.environment. Weapons are available because of the unstable situations
:08:07. > :08:13.in neighbouring countries. So they have decided to kidnap the
:08:14. > :08:19.schoolgirls because it was an easy target and for the publicity. The
:08:20. > :08:29.French government are putting 3000 troops into the region. It has been
:08:30. > :08:42.very slow for the West to react to what is going on. Why the West? We
:08:43. > :08:48.share this planet. It is amazing finally accept and criticise the
:08:49. > :08:55.likes of the American leadership and yet China became the largest economy
:08:56. > :08:59.recently and Russia seems to have a fair bit of free publicity, but
:09:00. > :09:08.nobody with ever think of any of these countries to contribute to the
:09:09. > :09:16.situation in Nigeria. It is partially about values, partially
:09:17. > :09:24.about capacity. It is an important point. When we talk globally, it is
:09:25. > :09:31.one of the things that we have to take into consideration. Secondly,
:09:32. > :09:40.we do not know where the schoolgirls are, but we do know that Boko Haram
:09:41. > :09:45.killed 200 people a week ago. The Cayman in tactical vehicles, I do
:09:46. > :09:53.not want to sound like some crazed warrior, but they are capable of
:09:54. > :09:59.being intercepted by drones. The third point is, one of the reasons
:10:00. > :10:06.why people knew late about this, Nigeria is a very big state itself,
:10:07. > :10:14.which contributes significant forces to African peacekeeping nations. It
:10:15. > :10:21.is not that isolated. The Nigerian government have been very slow. It
:10:22. > :10:32.is incredible that we have been hearing news that Nigeria is one of
:10:33. > :10:39.the biggest economies in Africa. They also contribute a lot of
:10:40. > :10:45.military and help other nations training academies. But I think, for
:10:46. > :10:52.me, it is more to do with the political fabric and infrastructure,
:10:53. > :11:00.that defines what the Army can do. Like many African countries, it is
:11:01. > :11:08.come out of a field political system. Very corrupt. Though it is
:11:09. > :11:13.not a dictatorship, a military dictatorship, but you see little
:11:14. > :11:19.sense and how the politicians are reacting. Part of the problem in
:11:20. > :11:23.northern Nigeria is because of the like of shaving of the wealth to the
:11:24. > :11:31.people. One of the best we've fought this to get the support of the
:11:32. > :11:34.people by northern Nigeria by sharing the wealth of the whole
:11:35. > :11:36.country with them. Russian's president Vladimir Putin
:11:37. > :11:39.now says that pro`Russian activists in Ukraine should not hold
:11:40. > :11:44.referendums and we should all wait for the Ukrainian presidential
:11:45. > :11:47.election at the end of this month. He also claims to have pulled back
:11:48. > :11:50.some Russian forces from the border, but then staged a theatrical visit
:11:51. > :11:58.to Crimea, roundly condemned as provocative in the West. What is he
:11:59. > :12:06.playing at? Those victory parades in Moscow yesterday. They had big
:12:07. > :12:17.echoes of 20 years ago. I wanted to send a word of caution, when people
:12:18. > :12:22.were saying that he had performed a U`turn over elections. He
:12:23. > :12:39.legitimises them and sees them as a way forward for Ukraine. Vladimir
:12:40. > :12:43.Putin It's not for turning. By doing the triumphant displays in Moscow.
:12:44. > :12:52.11,000 troops, rocket launchers in red Square. It is scary. It was the
:12:53. > :12:57.worst excesses of the Cold War. And then he goes to newly annexed
:12:58. > :13:07.Crimea, which he claims was returned to the Russian state after unfair
:13:08. > :13:16.grabbing by Ukraine. There he was selected and paraded by the Russian
:13:17. > :13:23.fleet and it was such, you may call it, a troubled mind, wanting these
:13:24. > :13:38.assets of power, these attributes of power. He rides a huge wave of self
:13:39. > :13:53.patriotism. There is nothing more of a winning formula. You lived in
:13:54. > :14:03.Moscow for a while? I did not meet Vladimir Putin. I understand where
:14:04. > :14:12.he is coming from. It is about power. I have got to compare him to
:14:13. > :14:21.the President of Uganda. These types of people, he may be sitting on a
:14:22. > :14:29.very progressive economy, but in terms of politics, they are
:14:30. > :14:34.dangerous people. They are absolute monarchists or whatever you want to
:14:35. > :14:41.call it. They live by power. I think that is what we are seeing. As we go
:14:42. > :14:48.on, I do not think even these people joining up, the Russian people
:14:49. > :14:51.themselves, will take it for very long before they say, the economy is
:14:52. > :14:59.going well, but we do not want democracy. There is a huge problem
:15:00. > :15:09.when you have been in power for a long time, by the time his term runs
:15:10. > :15:17.out he will have been in power for 20 years. There is not anybody in a
:15:18. > :15:22.mature democracy who gets to be in power for 20 years without a
:15:23. > :15:26.problem, being surrounded by people who say yes to them, who reflect
:15:27. > :15:36.things back to them, and also a sense of one's complete
:15:37. > :15:41.indispensability. Sure, flood your Putin has got Crimea, and that is a
:15:42. > :15:47.big blow for us, because we could guarantee nothing. `` Vladimir
:15:48. > :15:52.Putin. But the image that he has been incredibly clever, I think he
:15:53. > :15:59.has not been the master of events at all. I think events in Ukraine have
:16:00. > :16:03.gone on without him and represent a considerable amount of danger. We
:16:04. > :16:08.look at what has happened. We like to think the Russians are hugely
:16:09. > :16:14.involved, but there is also evidence that people are out of control in
:16:15. > :16:17.East Ukraine, who could be responsible for massacres,
:16:18. > :16:23.slaughters, something like that. He does not want that, either as part
:16:24. > :16:31.of his empire ought to be held responsible for it. It is no
:16:32. > :16:39.accident, he says he wants credit for being in Crimea but let us have
:16:40. > :16:44.an election in Ukraine. He might not be in control of events but in the
:16:45. > :16:50.past year he has been having quite a big say in Syria and now Crimea. He
:16:51. > :17:02.is in the driving seat in the Middle East and Europe. I believe he wants
:17:03. > :17:06.time to swallow Crimea, to digester it. If he is turning to pragmatism I
:17:07. > :17:12.think that is justified. `` digest it. Maybe the situation in Ukraine
:17:13. > :17:18.is out of his hands, they will go ahead with the referendum. We have
:17:19. > :17:23.to remember, the sanctions will start to bite, the Russian economy
:17:24. > :17:34.starts to suffer, the number of deaths is going up. A man like him,
:17:35. > :17:45.who stayed in power for 20 years, definitely, he will use the tactic
:17:46. > :17:54.used in Syria, when he managed to outmanoeuvre many people
:17:55. > :18:01.step`by`step. He has got this huge prize. Difference is the Syrian
:18:02. > :18:08.president never escaped to another country, but the tactics are the
:18:09. > :18:11.same. I think he let the genie out of the bottle, separatism, in
:18:12. > :18:19.eastern Ukraine, and he cannot control it. The local thugs who are
:18:20. > :18:26.terrorising local population cannot control it either. His biggest fear
:18:27. > :18:31.has been to stop Ukraine integrating. That he has succeeded
:18:32. > :18:43.in, but Ukraine has the support of the West, and with the eastern
:18:44. > :18:46.regions without them, it will slowly have to get closer to Europe to get
:18:47. > :18:52.rid of this rampant corruption that has been blighting Ukraine for years
:18:53. > :19:04.and led to them feeling disenfranchised. I want to move on
:19:05. > :19:10.to Syria, because rebel fighters in homes have pulled out of the centre
:19:11. > :19:17.of the city. `` Homs. Opposition fighters said the deal was agreed
:19:18. > :19:23.with between Iranian, are we seeing further evidence that this proxy war
:19:24. > :19:29.can only be ended by the outsiders? It definitely is a proxy war between
:19:30. > :19:39.Russia and the United States and Iran. That is the situation,
:19:40. > :19:42.summarised in Syria. As for what happened in Homs, that was actually
:19:43. > :19:46.a boost for the president. He goes into an election in two weeks, he
:19:47. > :19:54.will definitely win because it is not a democracy. I wonder what sort
:19:55. > :20:02.of swing he will get. I think 99%. No question about that. I believe
:20:03. > :20:09.now this Homs victory is shaking many people in the region. The
:20:10. > :20:18.government called for urgent meetings, the Friends of Syria are
:20:19. > :20:27.holding a meeting in London to deal with the situation. What happened,
:20:28. > :20:30.exactly, after two years of siege of about 1500 people in the heart of
:20:31. > :20:44.Homs, they had to give up. The Iranian intervened because they had
:20:45. > :20:50.hostages. They were also near to towns under siege from the rebels.
:20:51. > :20:56.The Iranian are a major player in Syria, they have boosted support for
:20:57. > :21:01.the president, who has the upper hand. He is gaining advantages on
:21:02. > :21:07.the battlefields and several areas. The Russians are also backing him.
:21:08. > :21:11.It is the Americans who are retreating, they don't want to
:21:12. > :21:17.interfere. The head of the Syrian opposition was in Washington and
:21:18. > :21:27.still is, he is asking for advanced weapons. The Americans are worried
:21:28. > :21:31.that an advanced weapon could fall into the hands of Al`Qaeda. I cannot
:21:32. > :21:43.see the situation improving in the coming years. It is almost as if
:21:44. > :21:46.outsiders are prepared to fight. I don't see America involved at all in
:21:47. > :21:50.any kind of meaningful way apart from occasionally talking. I take
:21:51. > :21:57.the point about the Iranian and Saudi Arabians, because it is
:21:58. > :22:05.impossible Syrians could come to an agreement by themselves. They
:22:06. > :22:10.require interlocutors to deal with these minor points. If you ask me
:22:11. > :22:14.frankly, I cannot for the life of me tell you what will be the situation
:22:15. > :22:20.in Syria in five years. I cannot tell you whether they will settle
:22:21. > :22:26.down as they did under the President's father. It seems very
:22:27. > :22:37.unlikely to me that they can go back to the status quo, and therefore
:22:38. > :22:46.what you're looking at is 10`20 years of instability. Spilling out.
:22:47. > :22:52.Yes, continually, into Lebanon, Iraq, possibly Turkey. The one great
:22:53. > :22:56.advantage from the point of view of discussions of the Middle East is it
:22:57. > :23:02.has made any discussion of what happens between the Israelis and
:23:03. > :23:10.Palestinians seem redundant. I don't think that is an advantage but it is
:23:11. > :23:16.there. I want to cry for Syria, because when it started, it was a
:23:17. > :23:22.pro`democracy movement. What does that tell us in Africa? We are
:23:23. > :23:30.trying to struggle for democracy. In Uganda, there are two debates
:23:31. > :23:35.saying, should we use violence, and the other, airships political
:23:36. > :23:44.parties, they say we should use peaceful means. I think it is right
:23:45. > :23:49.that the people of Syria found that it was ethical to overthrow him
:23:50. > :23:53.without force, but now it has degenerated into a civil conflict
:23:54. > :24:01.which could be a civil war. Perhaps it is now. It is. As I say, in
:24:02. > :24:09.Africa, it is something we have to study very carefully. The methods of
:24:10. > :24:15.how you overthrow a person like this. On one hand you do not want to
:24:16. > :24:27.degenerate into a civil conflict. In Uganda we have fought war against
:24:28. > :24:33.India means `` Idi Amin. The Americans, this year, they said in
:24:34. > :24:42.2014 there will be a war. I seem to be part of this whole thing. I think
:24:43. > :24:46.Syria, this bloody mess that Syria has become over the last three years
:24:47. > :24:54.shows the fragility of any world order, just like Ukraine, Crimea
:24:55. > :25:01.show the fragility of old and new Europe. Also, how many complicated
:25:02. > :25:05.issues and get totally out of control because you have proxy
:25:06. > :25:13.interests, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, China. They constantly block
:25:14. > :25:17.any attempts to adopt a security resolution. Now that China has
:25:18. > :25:25.stopped supporting Russia after Ukraine, maybe there is hope of some
:25:26. > :25:34.movement on Syria. Thank you very much. That is it for this week. You
:25:35. > :25:36.can comment on the programme on the Internet. We will be back at the
:25:37. > :26:06.same time next week. Goodbye. The overnight rain beats a quick
:26:07. > :26:11.retreat from much of the UK this morning, but even though brighter
:26:12. > :26:17.skies have followed, there are showers. That is the rain heading
:26:18. > :26:21.away but it is still hanging back across eastern part of Scotland, so
:26:22. > :26:26.it is rather cool, cloudy and damp. For the rest of us, showers,
:26:27. > :26:27.blustery, and a