:00:00. > 3:59:59There's a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now BBC News
:00:00. > :00:25.Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline
:00:26. > :00:29.London. Elections in Britain, across the European Union and in Ukraine.
:00:30. > :00:34.Plus Prince Charles compares Russia's Vladimir Putin to Hitler.
:00:35. > :00:37.Should he apologise? Putin, I mean? My guests today are Thomas Kielinger
:00:38. > :00:40.of Die Welt, Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg Markets, Irena Teranyuk of
:00:41. > :00:48.BBC Global News and Edward Lucas of The Economist One
:00:49. > :00:53.One year to go before the British general election and in the British
:00:54. > :00:56.local elections the UK Independence Party has done well, and when the
:00:57. > :00:59.votes are counted in the European elections they may again enjoy
:01:00. > :01:02.considerable success. But they promised an earthquake. Is that what
:01:03. > :01:07.we are seeing? No, it is not an earthquake. And I
:01:08. > :01:13.still feel when the general election comes, they will be happy to win
:01:14. > :01:20.more than a couple of seats. They are taking working`class votes from
:01:21. > :01:25.Labour, disillusioned Tories. It is to his `` too early to see what
:01:26. > :01:28.effect it will have but as a pro`European, I think it is
:01:29. > :01:32.deplorable that they have shifted the debate away from the important
:01:33. > :01:38.things. Europe matters more than ever, that Italy after what is
:01:39. > :01:45.happening in the `` articulately after what is happening in the
:01:46. > :01:50.Ukraine. `` particularly. We'll go into it in more detail in a
:01:51. > :01:53.moment but do you think David Cameron has a chance of reforming
:01:54. > :02:00.Europe in the British Mitch? There are a lot of countries that
:02:01. > :02:04.want to extend the open market and take a stronger line against what is
:02:05. > :02:08.happening in Russia. We have a large chunk of the East Europeans and
:02:09. > :02:13.North Europeans who are basically on our side and their is a better
:02:14. > :02:19.prospect to make Europe work the way we want. Not necessarily through
:02:20. > :02:25.treaties but making existing things work properly. We have seen the EU
:02:26. > :02:30.busting a gas monopoly in Europe, which is a terrific achievement.
:02:31. > :02:35.There is more to be done on energy security which will be more
:02:36. > :02:41.resilient. What do you make of it? Especially
:02:42. > :02:45.since we don't know the turnout in European elections but a lot of
:02:46. > :02:50.people think it will be lower than in 2009, when it was 43%. We know
:02:51. > :02:54.that the British elections, turnout was pretty miserable. It is
:02:55. > :03:00.difficult to extrapolate. It is difficult to extrapolate it
:03:01. > :03:04.towards the general election in Britain next year but as far as
:03:05. > :03:10.European elections are concerned, we can safely claim that UKIP will do
:03:11. > :03:15.probably better, according to all forecasts. It is a worrying sign
:03:16. > :03:23.because of what Nigel Farage said about Putin, about immigrants, about
:03:24. > :03:29.Romanians, rather than guardedly. Ukrainians will be watching the
:03:30. > :03:34.results with alarm, I think. The European Parliament, if this trend
:03:35. > :03:40.holds in European elections, of which we will learn on Monday, will
:03:41. > :03:46.be more to the right. Mainstream European parties will lose ground
:03:47. > :03:51.but let's hope that a European voice will be strong in Ukraine and Russia
:03:52. > :03:59.because even though they will lose ground, there will still be a pretty
:04:00. > :04:04.strong force to stop pressure from further expansion.
:04:05. > :04:07.It may be a blessing in disguise that UKIP has done so well and
:04:08. > :04:10.following what Edward says, it could increase the pressure on the
:04:11. > :04:15.reformist mandate governments in Europe to come together with Britain
:04:16. > :04:21.and work for a more flexible union. You could say that David Cameron
:04:22. > :04:24.will, I hope, not put pressure on Brussels to come up with a better
:04:25. > :04:31.outcome of the negotiations but he could band together with other
:04:32. > :04:36.governments and say, look at the developments all over Europe. We
:04:37. > :04:43.have to make the EU work better for the people and improve its image,
:04:44. > :04:50.improve its Mecca and so forth. `` its regulations.
:04:51. > :04:53.A lot of people are predicting he will have a significant block of
:04:54. > :04:59.people who don't want to be part of the parliament that they have been
:05:00. > :05:03.and did too, like UKIP. Then they may be the more modern
:05:04. > :05:09.groupings in Russells. They may have to come together and make sure they
:05:10. > :05:21.defeat this. `` in Brussels. You have to take the world by the horn
:05:22. > :05:23.and really increase your effort to work for a more effective union.
:05:24. > :05:28.Stephanie? I think people still receive the
:05:29. > :05:32.European Parliament is a joke and you can throw away your vote when it
:05:33. > :05:37.comes to the European elections. The European Parliament has become
:05:38. > :05:41.incredibly powerful over the last five years since the Lisbon Treaty.
:05:42. > :05:45.It does have a voice and a strong say in a whole range of legislation
:05:46. > :05:51.from agriculture, financial regulation, Civil Liberties. No one
:05:52. > :05:55.really drove home the point with Nigel Farage during this election
:05:56. > :06:00.campaign that UKIP has the worst voter participation rate in any
:06:01. > :06:07.European party at the European Parliament, with more than three
:06:08. > :06:09.seats. He has the 10th worst attendance record.
:06:10. > :06:15.But that could be a badge of honour. It could be.
:06:16. > :06:18.He makes a very strong argument that they are all the same, all the other
:06:19. > :06:22.parties are fundamentally the same and when you talk to Conservatives
:06:23. > :06:27.and Labour party people, it is an argument they hate because they say
:06:28. > :06:32.they are not all the same but he makes the argument strongly.
:06:33. > :06:35.Absolutely. I think there is a disconnect in Europe between
:06:36. > :06:41.politicians and voters and a feeling that politics is run by a political
:06:42. > :06:45.cartel that has more in common with each other than the voters. That's
:06:46. > :06:53.bad and I think the whole way we do representative democracy is based on
:06:54. > :06:58.an idea from the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s of mass voter turnout and that
:06:59. > :07:05.symptom of the failing current model but I don't think he has the
:07:06. > :07:09.answer. The alienation people feel about
:07:10. > :07:15.Brussels is repeated in Britain, where Nigel Farage also says we have
:07:16. > :07:18.found the mainstream parties no longer listen to the grassroots, to
:07:19. > :07:23.how people feel. I'm sure there has been too much of an attempt at
:07:24. > :07:26.political correctness in London to preach to the people what they
:07:27. > :07:34.think. Paradoxically, I think parties bend
:07:35. > :07:40.too much time doing focus groups. They are fine tuning their office to
:07:41. > :07:42.the voters preferences rather than actually concentrating on
:07:43. > :07:45.leadership. He also makes an argument about
:07:46. > :07:49.people that go into politics, saying they have not done anything else.
:07:50. > :07:55.That is factually correct in many cases and it is a big handicap if
:07:56. > :08:00.you look back on the 50s and 60s at people who served in the military
:08:01. > :08:03.during the war, perhaps had business interest or trade union interest.
:08:04. > :08:08.Those people are not in politics anymore.
:08:09. > :08:11.People have consistently underestimated him and the fact he
:08:12. > :08:16.did have a previous life before he entered relatives, he has this
:08:17. > :08:25.bookish, populist demeanour which appeals to a lot of people. ``
:08:26. > :08:29.blokey, populist demeanour. The other leaders spent most of their
:08:30. > :08:37.lives in politics. I think underestimate him again when it
:08:38. > :08:40.comes to the general election because he would do better than most
:08:41. > :08:42.people expect. On the other hand, I think that the
:08:43. > :08:49.main issue in the general election will be economics and do we know
:08:50. > :08:54.what Nigel Farage proposes to solve the housing crisis? How he wants to
:08:55. > :09:00.increase the competitiveness of the British economy on local markets?
:09:01. > :09:04.It almost seems like people don't care. The people who vote for him
:09:05. > :09:06.don't really care. Like the Lib Dems.
:09:07. > :09:11.Lots of people voted Lib Dem without caring about the policy.
:09:12. > :09:15.Because they were none of the above. The interesting question, to
:09:16. > :09:21.me, is whether you denigrate the UKIP gain and forget about
:09:22. > :09:25.immigration and other things or do you pay up to it? Do you talk about
:09:26. > :09:28.the EU and immigration more? I think you have got to make a
:09:29. > :09:32.positive case about Britain because it is a very accessible country.
:09:33. > :09:35.Immigration has been good for Britain and where you have problems
:09:36. > :09:39.it is because of system is not working properly. We have very
:09:40. > :09:45.talented people wanting to come here and work so that is a good thing. If
:09:46. > :09:50.the doctor 's surgery is badly run, it doesn't matter that the school
:09:51. > :09:55.doesn't have enough places. That is not an argument against migration.
:09:56. > :09:59.It is interesting about this UKIP anti`immigration is not cultural. It
:10:00. > :10:05.is not people saying, I don't like these people speaking Polish. It is
:10:06. > :10:17.the fact they can't get their kids into school. That is more of the ``
:10:18. > :10:23.it is not the problem we had with immigration and skin colour before.
:10:24. > :10:28.Is it that these parties are asking questions or is the question itself
:10:29. > :10:33.apparent? I think you could have been asking good questions and we
:10:34. > :10:37.don't have answers. With the BMP, the far right, the question is
:10:38. > :10:41.abhorrent and we shouldn't try to answer it. `` BMP.
:10:42. > :10:44.The people of Ukraine go to the polls in effect to offer democratic
:10:45. > :10:46.legitimacy to the overthrow of the previous regime. Will these
:10:47. > :10:48.elections result in a government which can control Ukrainian
:10:49. > :10:51.territory, and deal effectively with Russia?
:10:52. > :10:57.This is a huge democratic mandate for whoever the next government is,
:10:58. > :11:03.presumably. The result will be what on the ground?
:11:04. > :11:08.That is a big question. We pretty much know who the next president of
:11:09. > :11:14.Ukraine will be because it will be the leader of opinion polls. The
:11:15. > :11:17.question remains how much of a landslide victory will bring and
:11:18. > :11:23.whether he will win in the first round of voting tomorrow or three
:11:24. > :11:27.weeks later. What remains a big issue is how he will reinstate the
:11:28. > :11:40.government control over the rebellious East. The good point is
:11:41. > :11:42.the fact that Putin, Russia's president, kindly agreed to
:11:43. > :11:49.recognise the legitimacy of whoever gets chosen. The task at hand will
:11:50. > :11:54.be hard. Considering how much bloodshed has been over the last
:11:55. > :11:59.week in the run`up to the elections and how many attempts were made to
:12:00. > :12:06.disrupt the whole voting process. Some voting officials were kidnapped
:12:07. > :12:12.and their fate still unknown. The efforts to disrupt the voting by
:12:13. > :12:28.Fergus, pro`Russian separatists are tremendous. `` thuggish, pro`Russian
:12:29. > :12:35.separatists are tremendous. Even without those couple of million
:12:36. > :12:39.Eastern Ukrainians in the Donetsk region, we are talking about certain
:12:40. > :12:46.places that won't be allowed to vote, the rest of the regions will
:12:47. > :12:52.vote. It is a very patchy picture and one town will vote, another town
:12:53. > :12:55.won't vote because of the thugs terrorising the local population and
:12:56. > :13:00.threatening to blow up polling stations. Mind you, the turnout in
:13:01. > :13:04.the Ukrainian elections will be higher than it was here in the
:13:05. > :13:09.European elections. That is not saying much but the key
:13:10. > :13:15.point you are making would be the argument that he would say this is
:13:16. > :13:20.an illegitimate regime that came to power...
:13:21. > :13:23.It will no longer hold. It is a legitimate government now because it
:13:24. > :13:33.has been appointed by the legitimate parliament. The acting president had
:13:34. > :13:39.a bastion of legitimacy. `` a question of legitimacy. Once we have
:13:40. > :13:46.democratically elected president, there isn't a real opponent against
:13:47. > :13:52.the leader, Russia will have to accept the result and separatist
:13:53. > :13:56.will have no backers. The Economist made the point in last
:13:57. > :13:59.week 's edition that there is a division within the EU those
:14:00. > :14:04.northern countries tend to be more robust than other countries, who are
:14:05. > :14:12.not that bothered about what happens in Ukraine? Is that fair enough? The
:14:13. > :14:15.EU is not speaking in one firm voice about what should happen?
:14:16. > :14:20.It isn't and I think it is failing, like it did after the Georgian war.
:14:21. > :14:25.What Putin has basically done is set fire to a neighbouring house and it
:14:26. > :14:30.is still burning. We might have been able to put out some of it but we
:14:31. > :14:34.have to have very modest expectations. The Ukrainians are
:14:35. > :14:40.heroic in the way they go to the polls, even at the risk of death or
:14:41. > :14:45.kidnapping and so on. Ukraine faces a colossal constitutional crisis of
:14:46. > :14:51.reconstructing its institutions after an appalling regime. It faces
:14:52. > :15:00.an economic crisis and part of its territory is occupied by hostile
:15:01. > :15:03.power. With all respect, we have to have very modest expectations about
:15:04. > :15:07.what they can do in these circumstances. We allowed this to
:15:08. > :15:11.happen and the Western response, I think, has been extremely weak and
:15:12. > :15:21.dangerously so because it has given Putin the impression that we don't
:15:22. > :15:26.really care about European security. We expect too much from the Western
:15:27. > :15:32.countries. It is for the Ukrainian people today five `` decide for
:15:33. > :15:41.themselves what kind of institutional makeup they want. Is
:15:42. > :15:52.that what the Swiss want or the Russians? Do they want
:15:53. > :15:58.semi`autonomy? We can lend a hand. There are round table discussions
:15:59. > :16:04.going on. Is that not the way to go? It is back to front on this. In
:16:05. > :16:12.conditions of order, countries can decide their Constitution. This is
:16:13. > :16:22.like saying to Czechoslovakia in 1998, have you considered becoming a
:16:23. > :16:27.adoration? It is entirely the wrong time. `` a confederation. They want
:16:28. > :16:34.good government which they have not had for 30 years. Russia wants to be
:16:35. > :16:46.a good partner. That is complete nonsense! German delusion. Putin has
:16:47. > :16:49.said it is a territory, not a country. You will continue to lose
:16:50. > :16:55.out if you continue along those lines. We will link recent sanctions
:16:56. > :17:02.and take business away. Economically it is going to hurt Russia. Good.
:17:03. > :17:08.I'd think Putin doesn't want a raging civil war on his doorstep
:17:09. > :17:14.just as much as he doesn't want NATO troops stationed there, so it is
:17:15. > :17:18.naive to think he wants to fan the flames of a civil war. He has
:17:19. > :17:23.realised what is at stake and is sounding more conciliatory with the
:17:24. > :17:30.threat of a wider sanctions and it is destabilising to other regions in
:17:31. > :17:34.Russia. The sad thing about Ukraine is that they are constantly having
:17:35. > :17:43.to choose between independence and economic survival. Ukraine is going
:17:44. > :17:47.to be moved towards the West and Russia is going to squeeze Ukraine
:17:48. > :17:56.and gas prices, which is going to kill the industry in the East. Aim
:17:57. > :18:00.March the company has already `` there is a deadline coming up in a
:18:01. > :18:08.week or two and that will really squeeze industry, chemical plants in
:18:09. > :18:12.the East, which... Putin has unleashed forces that he cannot
:18:13. > :18:19.control. No`one can control those forces. He ultimately secured his
:18:20. > :18:25.geopolitical goal by stalling Ukraine's close integration to the
:18:26. > :18:30.European Union. Ukraine is a country under the occupation, because
:18:31. > :18:37.Crimea, he annexed by Russia in March, will prevent it from having
:18:38. > :18:47.any deeper cooperation with NATO, and that is his ultimate goal.
:18:48. > :18:52.Ukraine among `` Ukraine no longer matters, it is unable to decide its
:18:53. > :18:56.future. We will stick with this area, because I want to come onto
:18:57. > :19:00.the diplomatic row between Britain and Moscow over remarks by Prince
:19:01. > :19:05.Charles, apparently comparing Vladimir Putin to Hitler. Russia
:19:06. > :19:09.suffered greatly in the war against the Nazis, but Russians talk much
:19:10. > :19:14.less about the Nazi Soviet pact which dismembered Poland and divided
:19:15. > :19:20.Eastern Europe between two indicators. What ever we think about
:19:21. > :19:25.Putin, should be British heir to the throne keep his mouth shut? You
:19:26. > :19:39.wrote a book about the Queen. You should be aware. I'd disagree but we
:19:40. > :19:45.have to have another programme to discuss that. We have to be careful
:19:46. > :19:49.to come up with `` not to come up with easy comparisons. This is not a
:19:50. > :19:54.Kebler situation. This is a situation where Russia helps herself
:19:55. > :20:00.to the opening of a territory. `` a Kebler situation. She is not
:20:01. > :20:05.preparing a new war as Hitler did, that it is a battle between
:20:06. > :20:13.influences, which is not quite the same as the Hitler design on Europe
:20:14. > :20:17.at the time. Why do you think he is wrong? The whole basis of European
:20:18. > :20:23.security for decades has been getting away from this idea about
:20:24. > :20:29.rules `based order. Putin and Hitler are clearly different, and as Mark
:20:30. > :20:33.trait `` as Mark Twain said, history does not repeat itself. Let's be
:20:34. > :20:43.clear, this is a race aced politic that Putin is adopting now. Russian
:20:44. > :20:52.speakers? It is similar to the way Putin talked about the racial idea,
:20:53. > :20:57.it does not matter which country you live in, whether you like it or not,
:20:58. > :21:02.it is very similar. The question I was raising is, whether the heir to
:21:03. > :21:05.the throne should say such things. I'd personally think he should have
:21:06. > :21:11.kept quiet, knowing that there were journalists around. Whether you
:21:12. > :21:15.think he is right to make that comparison or not, it is fanning the
:21:16. > :21:18.claims of Cold War rhetoric that is not helping the situation and is
:21:19. > :21:25.only encouraging Russian nationalism within Russia. I'd agree that
:21:26. > :21:28.historical comparisons are very slippery. I have seen other people
:21:29. > :21:35.say he is more about Melissa pitch than he is like Hitler, which I've
:21:36. > :21:40.think is probably more true, but I'd do not think you can make these
:21:41. > :21:45.easy, cliched comparisons of Hitler. Putin is much more bumbling
:21:46. > :21:51.and reactive and does not have a scary world vision. I think he saw
:21:52. > :21:56.what was happening in Ukraine, sought a corrupt regime `` saw a
:21:57. > :22:02.current regime toppled quickly and thought, oh, this could happen in
:22:03. > :22:10.Russia. He has a dangerous world vision, which is reading Eurasia as
:22:11. > :22:16.opposed to Europe. `` creating. He is promoting a so`called Russian
:22:17. > :22:22.orthodox world will stop he knows what he is doing `` world. He knows
:22:23. > :22:25.that he is doing when he is annexing Crimea or destabilising Ukraine to
:22:26. > :22:33.prevent it from moving closer to Europe. The question about whether
:22:34. > :22:37.or not he should be compared to Hitler, in a private conversation,
:22:38. > :22:42.let's not forget, it was a private comment, and Prince Charles was
:22:43. > :22:45.speaking to a woman who lost her whole family in the Holocaust and
:22:46. > :22:52.she only survived because she emigrated to the in 1939, so it was
:22:53. > :22:56.Smalltalk, but it is never Smalltalk with the Royal Family, because there
:22:57. > :23:05.could be journalists lurking, but Clarence House keeps quiet, he will
:23:06. > :23:10.keep quiet. It is the media storm, a storm in a teacup or a glass of
:23:11. > :23:15.water, blood out of proportion, but it raises the issue of whether or
:23:16. > :23:21.not we are allowed to speak our mind. Nobody else is saying it.
:23:22. > :23:25.There are similarities, he is right. There are not parallels, but
:23:26. > :23:30.similarities to the attitude of destabilising neighbours. Our
:23:31. > :23:38.politicians are too scared to say that. You are accusing the Prime
:23:39. > :23:45.Minister of appeasement. I wouldn't go so far. There is it points to be
:23:46. > :23:49.made that it might be a good thing sometimes not to say what you think
:23:50. > :23:57.in order to achieve some ultimate goal. What happened when cartoons of
:23:58. > :24:01.Mohammed were not printed in British media. You would have said that with
:24:02. > :24:04.cowardice. It was understandable that they did not want to inflame
:24:05. > :24:09.the situation even more than it already was at the time. There might
:24:10. > :24:13.be a point to be made that, while the comparison might hold some
:24:14. > :24:24.truth, it does not behoove the heir to the throne... We are now in the
:24:25. > :24:31.era where we have Sudeten Russians, I have heard said. The thing that is
:24:32. > :24:35.why Prince Charles's remarks had such legs and made such an impact,
:24:36. > :24:39.because he was saying something that lots of people were thinking but
:24:40. > :24:46.politicians are too scared to say. The grandmother of Nick Clegg lived
:24:47. > :24:52.under Nazi occupation in Hollins, and like the Royal Family, has at
:24:53. > :24:57.his history, and said we should not make parallels. Why not? We should
:24:58. > :25:02.be alerting the public that this is the most dangerous European security
:25:03. > :25:08.situation we have had for decades. We are being namby`pamby. That
:25:09. > :25:12.argument can be made without having to resuscitate the spirit of Hitler.
:25:13. > :25:19.There isn't the famous thing about arguments, that at some point,
:25:20. > :25:25.Hitler will come up and that will spoil the debate. I think it is a
:25:26. > :25:31.cliche. We can take on the seriousness of what Putin has done
:25:32. > :25:37.in the security implications. It just serves to divide and inflame
:25:38. > :25:42.tensions and emotions rather than focus people's mines on the serious
:25:43. > :25:46.security concerns at hand. That is eight for this week. We will be back
:25:47. > :25:53.next week at the same time. You can comment on this the's programme on
:25:54. > :26:00.Twitter. Goodbye. The chapter you can comment on this programme and ``
:26:01. > :26:13.you can comment on this programme on Twitter. Goodbye.
:26:14. > :26:21.Just because I have this particular sphere behind me does not mean to
:26:22. > :26:22.say that the whole holiday weekend is by any means a complete