:00:00. > :00:00.There's a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour.
:00:00. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:27.The European Union ` ready for reform?
:00:28. > :00:30.Egypt elects a new president, except a lot
:00:31. > :00:37.And from Boko Haram to honour killings, the way Islam is viewed
:00:38. > :00:41.around the world ` or is it the way women are viewed around the world?
:00:42. > :00:44.My guests today are Alex Deane of Conservative Home, Nesrine
:00:45. > :00:47.Malik, who is a Sudanese writer, Abdallah Homouda, who is an Egyptian
:00:48. > :00:53.The headlines in Europe have been full of stories
:00:54. > :00:55.about the successes of Eurosceptic parties, so does this herald
:00:56. > :01:02.Or, with mainstream parties still in the vast majority in the EU
:01:03. > :01:10.parliament, has the news coverage been a bit excitable?
:01:11. > :01:23.We have heard of the `` earthquakes in France and here. I think for the
:01:24. > :01:26.UK it is significant. I am Eurosceptic myself, and I think it
:01:27. > :01:30.is profoundly significant for the Conservative party. The threat to
:01:31. > :01:35.the Conservative party for the upcoming general election is great.
:01:36. > :01:40.A ball from the terrible graph `` a poll from the Telegraph say that
:01:41. > :01:44.people who voted UKIP are going to vote for them come the general
:01:45. > :01:49.election. So for the Tories, we have to respond to this. The narrative on
:01:50. > :01:54.our side, and I think in France and Germany, but most of all for the UK,
:01:55. > :02:03.the narrative has been complacency, thinking your voters will come back.
:02:04. > :02:10.It is just a protest vote? Exactly. But if you look at the local
:02:11. > :02:13.elections, voting for local councils, people know what the
:02:14. > :02:17.services are that they get, and they like or dislike them, but the
:02:18. > :02:20.analysis there suggests the UKIP vote went down. Yes, then
:02:21. > :02:28.comparatively to last year. But the number of people prepared to put
:02:29. > :02:33.across in the box for a significant election... Not only did they add
:02:34. > :02:41.hundreds of councillors to the account, but Nigel Farage's standing
:02:42. > :02:43.is one in which he is no longer peripheral or fringe, he is
:02:44. > :02:47.increasingly central in the attention he commands, be a time he
:02:48. > :02:53.gets, and he looks like a grown`up, not someone protesting at the side
:02:54. > :03:00.of the pitch. What do you reckon to this, do you see this as a political
:03:01. > :03:03.earthquake in Britain? I am not sure whether people are voting for the
:03:04. > :03:09.same thing that other people suspect they are. I do not think it is about
:03:10. > :03:14.Europe. I have been listening to a lot of UKIP voters over the past few
:03:15. > :03:20.weeks, and the fact it is a European MEP is a proxy for the frustrations
:03:21. > :03:23.with domestic policy. What I find fascinating if I do agree that
:03:24. > :03:27.mainstream parties are disenfranchising a whole swathes of
:03:28. > :03:32.the population. But those people are on the side of UKIP voters,
:03:33. > :03:36.working`class people, immigrants, people who are vulnerable economic,
:03:37. > :03:40.we are all on the same side, but UKIP has managed to turn white
:03:41. > :03:49.working class people against everyone else also alienate it by
:03:50. > :03:56.mainstream politics. So this is the problem, mainstream parties have
:03:57. > :03:59.alienate the voters who will not vote for UKIP, so you have people
:04:00. > :04:05.who are disillusioned with mainstream politics but cannot and
:04:06. > :04:10.do not want to vote for UKIP, so that is the sad situation that you
:04:11. > :04:13.have so many people who do not agree with UKIP, but do not agree with
:04:14. > :04:24.mainstream parties. Where do they go? Would you agree with one of
:04:25. > :04:30.Nigel Farage's criticisms that they are all the same, and that is
:04:31. > :04:36.something that voters often say that strikes a chord. They are all the
:04:37. > :04:38.same and they look the same and they are from the same social and ethnic
:04:39. > :05:13.backgrounds, the front, there is something clever
:05:14. > :05:15.going on, which is the maintenance of the politics of grievance, I am
:05:16. > :05:21.outside the mainstream and different to them, at a time where his party
:05:22. > :05:25.is now mainstream, commanding majorities in national polls, and he
:05:26. > :05:28.has become a mainstream figure. At being able to maintain that
:05:29. > :05:32.narrative of being outside is a very clever, which may take them a
:05:33. > :05:44.significant way. Marine Le Pen a similar. Exactly the same. She did
:05:45. > :05:54.extremely well with the same sort of public disenfranchise, people afraid
:05:55. > :05:58.of immigration, afraid of this widening gap between the poor and
:05:59. > :06:13.rich. This is a very important issue, also in Britain. A side of
:06:14. > :06:22.France, Britain and Greece, mainstream parties have one. If you
:06:23. > :06:24.look at Italy, 47% endorsement, and in Germany, another triumph for
:06:25. > :06:30.Angela Merkel. Is this a wake`up call for Europe for mainstream
:06:31. > :06:36.reform? Everyone agrees that Europe has two reform, not to the British
:06:37. > :06:40.line to destroy Europe to get a free market, but we cannot go on the way
:06:41. > :06:47.that it was created that everyone agrees and there will be some sort
:06:48. > :06:50.of sovereignty given back to the state. What Cameron once, I think
:06:51. > :07:01.there will be an agreement along these lines. At the moment, there is
:07:02. > :07:04.a feeling that we are angry at Europe, but without Europe we do not
:07:05. > :07:08.exist. Without Europe, the world will not look at Europe and the
:07:09. > :07:12.country as the same is. Britain can have a delusion of grandeur about
:07:13. > :07:21.going alone, but the fact is, without Europe, Britain does not
:07:22. > :07:27.exist foreign investment... That is absolute nonsense! What a shame we
:07:28. > :07:38.have to fall out over this! Forget it if you want to go alone. You will
:07:39. > :07:42.become Norway. With the highest quality of life in the world! That
:07:43. > :07:50.of a country of Churchill and the Empire. I would like to start from
:07:51. > :07:57.where Alex mentioned, the politics of grievance. The two schools of
:07:58. > :08:08.thought, Europhiles and Eurosceptics. I think the European
:08:09. > :08:12.citizens feel that the drive towards the European unity has neglected
:08:13. > :08:18.national interest and it came at the expense of national interest in a
:08:19. > :08:24.way which made them try to make a point and say, stop here and
:08:25. > :08:48.rethink. Obviously that he `` obviously the crisis... 26% in
:08:49. > :08:52.France and 6% only in Paris, this shows that the debate in the capital
:08:53. > :08:58.does not go very far to the country. That are similar in London. There is
:08:59. > :09:03.a very important point about turnout, and it is a correlation
:09:04. > :09:06.between large turnout and voting for mainstream parties and lower turnout
:09:07. > :09:12.and voting for fringe parties. The UK's turnout is in the bottom seven
:09:13. > :09:18.of all European countries that have voted, and I think that where there
:09:19. > :09:20.is uninterested, plugged in populous, people are more informed
:09:21. > :09:26.and they will vote more for mainstream parties than when people
:09:27. > :09:31.are disenfranchised and unplugged. This idea that you should tempt
:09:32. > :09:39.voters by saying, if only you knew more, you would vote for our party.
:09:40. > :09:44.We're not saying you should do that, it does not make it not true that if
:09:45. > :09:50.the new more the wooden vote. But you cannot tempt them by saying
:09:51. > :09:52.that. The fact is, what is the economic programme of UKIP? How do
:09:53. > :10:02.the track jobs and foreign investment? By banning gay marriage!
:10:03. > :10:04.All I know are those rules. They are extremely unattractive to London
:10:05. > :10:12.liberals, but they are not seeking to speak to them. I am no defender
:10:13. > :10:17.of UKIP, it is deeply deductive, and as long as we come out, all economic
:10:18. > :10:19.things will be well. As long as we failed to challenge them on the
:10:20. > :10:23.central debate about Europe, they would be able to do that. But I'm
:10:24. > :10:27.afraid it is worse in your country because all the mainstream parties
:10:28. > :10:31.did not display Euroscepticism at all, leaving a swathe of fertile
:10:32. > :10:36.ground for the National Front. The National Front also `` always does
:10:37. > :10:44.well when you have a weak left`wing government. This is nothing to do
:10:45. > :10:48.with Europe. Let us move on to other democratic matters.
:10:49. > :10:52.Sisi has, to no`one's surprise, been elected President of Egypt, but with
:10:53. > :10:56.many people choosing not to vote, where does this leave Egypt now `
:10:57. > :11:07.Democracy? It was a foregone conclusion, and what you would
:11:08. > :11:20.expect in Egypt's in the battle place. Turnout is something nearing
:11:21. > :11:24.45%. It does not look bad in any democratic country, by the way, but
:11:25. > :11:35.in Egypt's we see things differently because when people know that their
:11:36. > :11:45.favourite candidate is going to win, that is an impediment to many
:11:46. > :11:52.people. But a number of liberal idealists and obviously the Muslim
:11:53. > :11:58.brotherhood and their allies have decided... It of his `` if it is 45%
:11:59. > :12:05.turnout, it is good enough to get a candidate winning. The other
:12:06. > :12:10.dilemma, two points actually, I had some trepidation with this, I felt
:12:11. > :12:19.that the Egyptians, while going about democracy, are still hanging
:12:20. > :12:25.to the old idea of one person. This way, most of the people leaning
:12:26. > :12:30.towards him as the hero they wanted to have to secure the country and
:12:31. > :12:40.get it working. As strongman to discipline? Yes, in that sense a lot
:12:41. > :12:49.was given to the other candidate who only got 3% of the vote. I did not
:12:50. > :12:54.see that as good. I was hoping that the margin of winning could be as
:12:55. > :13:06.close as possible. Unfortunately it came as wide as it could be, ever.
:13:07. > :13:11.But he is a very respected man, his unfortunate situation is that
:13:12. > :13:21.Egyptians do not understand that when you live under a regime like
:13:22. > :13:28.barbaric, `` like President Mubarek, and undermined in every possible way
:13:29. > :13:33.and survived, that is winning. In Britain he would be considered a
:13:34. > :13:46.hero! In hours country, they wanted someone who is clean and not
:13:47. > :13:51.touched. The problem of general al Sisi is proving that running a
:13:52. > :13:58.military is useful in running a country. What we are seeing is
:13:59. > :14:10.presumably a free and her on, but not a democracy. Well, you know, it
:14:11. > :14:19.reminds me of the Burke, who was a great president. The fact is that
:14:20. > :14:21.unlike you, I believe that military are the worst rulers because they
:14:22. > :14:28.are fundamentally corrupt all over the world, and because they take the
:14:29. > :14:35.money of the state for their own good. That is a problem of the
:14:36. > :14:47.military as an industry. Has he been able to cut this chord with this?
:14:48. > :14:53.The military don't control the Egyptian. Even if they don't there
:14:54. > :14:58.is a fear, my fear is that it spells the death of politics in Egypt for a
:14:59. > :15:02.long time, even if they don't control the Egyptians or the
:15:03. > :15:07.industry they're still the end game. What happened with Morsi because
:15:08. > :15:09.people didn't like how he was governing and came out in their
:15:10. > :15:15.millions and the military stepped in, that scenario is not a
:15:16. > :15:21.possibility when he is in power. There is no ` that is the worry.
:15:22. > :15:26.Turkish friends of mine have said that the constant use of the
:15:27. > :15:29.military to overthrow failing democratic governments means that
:15:30. > :15:32.the country for many years couldn't grow up because it's like your
:15:33. > :15:37.father rescuing you from making mistakes. Absolutely. The same thing
:15:38. > :15:40.may be happening in Egypt. Turkey's moved further down that process. It
:15:41. > :15:45.seems the process has stopped in Egypt. It's what I mean when I say I
:15:46. > :15:49.fear the death of politics because it's stunted now because they've
:15:50. > :15:53.gone back to another father figure from the military. What is really
:15:54. > :16:04.worrying, if you watch Egyptian media over the past couple of months
:16:05. > :16:10.the level of hysteria in supporting Sisi is... Absolutely no neutrality
:16:11. > :16:17.at all. Actually an interesting bit of trivia is that the second
:16:18. > :16:26.candidate came actually third after the second poll was for spoiled
:16:27. > :16:29.ballots. Sisi came first. And spoiled ballots. Spoiled ballots are
:16:30. > :16:37.being unhappy with the system you are in. I would want to have none of
:16:38. > :16:41.the above box, reopen nominations. Although of course I always vote
:16:42. > :16:46.Conservative. Were I not doing that I might consider ticking that box
:16:47. > :16:52.myself. The involvement of military in any democratic process, and that
:16:53. > :16:56.takes me some of the way towards your pessimism. I look to evidence
:16:57. > :17:00.with that with the fact tourism is suffering and the Egyptian pound is
:17:01. > :17:05.slumping. Those things are negative. But there are a couple of cautionary
:17:06. > :17:09.notes that may be worth making. The first is this electorate has had
:17:10. > :17:14.seven elections in the last two years. Talking about turnout in the
:17:15. > :17:20.European context, there is a certain amount of voter fa treeing.
:17:21. > :17:25.Secondly, it's `` fatigue. Secondly, if the person in command running is
:17:26. > :17:29.backed by the military but also by the voice of business, also every
:17:30. > :17:33.celebrity you have ever heard of and the other side boycotts, it's not
:17:34. > :17:36.necessarily a condemnation of democracy in Egypt that people
:17:37. > :17:39.didn't go in droves to vote the other way when a large number of
:17:40. > :17:47.people were telling them don't bother to vote. Let's move on. We
:17:48. > :17:53.are running out of time. A woman faces the death penalty in Sudan for
:17:54. > :17:58.marrying a Christian man. Boko Haram kidnaps girls in Nigeria. Do these
:17:59. > :18:03.tell us anything about is slam, or given the recent rapes and murders
:18:04. > :18:07.of young girls in India or does it tell us much more about how women
:18:08. > :18:13.are still viewed in some parts of the world. People have said this is
:18:14. > :18:16.unjust, let her go. I was there when it happened and the interesting
:18:17. > :18:21.thing has been Sudanese people themselves have had enough. They see
:18:22. > :18:24.the fact the Government is instrumentalising religion to flex
:18:25. > :18:29.muscles and to pretend it's a Sharia Government. Coming back to your
:18:30. > :18:34.question, is this related to is slam? Over the past couple of weeks
:18:35. > :18:39.we have had killings in California, incidents in India and Pakistan and
:18:40. > :18:49.now in Sudan. It's obviously a global problem. However, there is a
:18:50. > :18:53.spot of Islam, tribal values, political des pottism is where Islam
:18:54. > :18:57.enables this kind of behaviour. People will say, I say to them, it's
:18:58. > :19:01.not about Islam at all and people don't agree on ` and even Sudanese
:19:02. > :19:04.people are standing outside the court with signs saying, people have
:19:05. > :19:08.freedom to believe whatever they want, which is a big thing in a
:19:09. > :19:12.dictatorship in Sudan. But then the answer to that is, if it didn't
:19:13. > :19:15.exist in religion, you wouldn't be able to instrumentalise it in the
:19:16. > :19:22.first place. I think even though there's been a lot of sort of very
:19:23. > :19:29.mature debate about the fact that politics and Islamic governments
:19:30. > :19:35.cynically use Islam and enable individuals to use apostasy cases to
:19:36. > :19:39.sort out grievances, you still need to be able to sort out the
:19:40. > :19:43.fundamental problem which is the fact that Islam and politics in the
:19:44. > :19:48.Arab world and in Sudan are in an unfortunate bind and it needs to be
:19:49. > :19:54.separated. Is this also true in Egypt, not obviously this case, but
:19:55. > :20:00.we have seen the treatment of some Christians who have complained? The
:20:01. > :20:07.treatment of Christians is different from the treatment of someone
:20:08. > :20:15.accused of apostasy. In Egypt even under the Muslim Brotherhood, they
:20:16. > :20:22.allowed a ` a different kind which is not acceptable either: Problem is
:20:23. > :20:28.this has nothing to do with Islam. It is being instrumentalised. In
:20:29. > :20:33.Islam you should understand that jurisdiction is associated with a
:20:34. > :20:40.time and a place and circumstances. It was at a time when Islam was
:20:41. > :21:24.under threat, small minority. In a different mill ennia `` mill enyum.
:21:25. > :21:33.own affairs which is wrong, as well. This is a kind of militant brand of
:21:34. > :22:11.Islam in power trying to create a utopia.
:22:12. > :22:24.the Muslims of the Bias Borough of the Western world. The respect of
:22:25. > :22:38.women, the respect of diversity, that is my belief in England,
:22:39. > :22:39.Germany and France. The extent to which we have bent over to try to
:22:40. > :23:21.matter of great interest within the understand and `` display sensitive
:23:22. > :23:24.matter of great interest within the Church of England but to many people
:23:25. > :23:31.in Britain doesn't matter because we have moved on, is that... That's
:23:32. > :23:36.what I am saying. How do you think this is resolvable? The point was
:23:37. > :23:39.made about when outside people criticise, particularly governments
:23:40. > :23:46.that feel besieged and they're taking a tough stance... It becomes
:23:47. > :23:52.a proxy for a sovereign debate. The way forward is mus lems themselves
:23:53. > :23:54.and `` Muslims themselves and Sudanese people stand up for it
:23:55. > :23:58.themselves. Will it change the Government's mind? It will and has.
:23:59. > :24:02.There have been three incidents in the past five years where the
:24:03. > :24:06.Government has passed sentences of lashing of women and for execution
:24:07. > :24:09.and because of local pressure, national pressure and actually a
:24:10. > :24:13.deep distaste for this kind of thing, have not been enacted. It's
:24:14. > :24:15.interesting in the next week or so our Foreign Secretary and Angelina
:24:16. > :24:21.Jolie and others are going to be at a conference talking about the way
:24:22. > :24:25.in which women are attacked and sexually abused as a weapon of war,
:24:26. > :24:30.it's wider. Taking the point that everybody has made about Islam and
:24:31. > :24:33.women it's wider than that. Women are systemically mistreated in lots
:24:34. > :24:36.of cultures around the world and every time it happens it's wrong.
:24:37. > :24:39.But there is a problem with Islam and it's one we need to grapple
:24:40. > :24:42.with. I believe women are equal to men and that simple statement
:24:43. > :24:46.shouldn't put me at odds with individuals, but if it does I am
:24:47. > :24:48.content with it. My fear is that there are many people who lead our
:24:49. > :24:52.country and elsewhere who are so keen to get on with others and show
:24:53. > :24:55.cultural sensitivity and not fall out with them that they don't make
:24:56. > :24:58.simple statements like that and point out that certain cultures in
:24:59. > :25:04.this world, Sudan not least, are repressing half the population. I
:25:05. > :25:10.don't want to single out Islam, there are problems with everyone who
:25:11. > :25:16.is militant or is dogmatic or he is backward. It's a coincidence, isn't
:25:17. > :25:23.it... What I would like to tell you incident in Sudan which was not
:25:24. > :25:31.related to apostasy at all and the trial of a woman for wearing
:25:32. > :25:36.trousers and she was a journalist ` these are things which are really
:25:37. > :25:43.bothering us and people are moving forward to put an end to that.
:25:44. > :25:48.Unfortunately, the Islamic streak which can be radicalising even in
:25:49. > :25:53.Britain and the West is not helping. OK. That's it for this week. We are
:25:54. > :25:56.back next week at the same time. You can comment on the programme on
:25:57. > :26:21.Twitter. Thank you for watching. Goodbye.
:26:22. > :26:27.Good morning. A nice day on the way for most of us today. I don't think
:26:28. > :26:31.it's going to be completely sunny nor is it going to be a scorcher but
:26:32. > :26:34.at least it's looking bright and it's going to be warm in the
:26:35. > :26:40.sunshine too. For most of us the weekend is not looking too bad.
:26:41. > :26:41.Tomorrow, particularly across eastern parts of the country, it's