:00:00. > :00:00.a walk on May the 27th. We will have more details on that in a bulletin
:00:00. > :00:30.at the top of the hour. Now it is time for dateline London live with
:00:31. > :00:41.Gavin Esler. The World War II Allies celebrated 13, but where dies Russia
:00:42. > :00:58.`` does Russia fit in? And combating Muslim extremism in schools. Russia
:00:59. > :01:06.has been excluded from meetings of the G8 and warned that further
:01:07. > :01:10.sanctions could follow. As we remember D`Day and the struggle
:01:11. > :01:17.against Nasr is, what has to change for Russia, Europe and the United
:01:18. > :01:23.States? It was a poignant moment. President Putin being seen as a bit
:01:24. > :01:32.of an outsider. It is a perfect illustration of the absurdity of the
:01:33. > :01:35.situation. On D`Day, a day when we commemorate the millions and
:01:36. > :01:42.millions of lives lost in the Second World War, and we hopefully now
:01:43. > :01:47.about Russia's contribution to that, and at the same time Russia is
:01:48. > :01:55.being sidelined and lectured and being put on the backbench. What
:01:56. > :02:02.needs to be done is the West, the G7 or whatever, need to realise that
:02:03. > :02:10.actually there is a lot more reason behind Russia's actions than it is
:02:11. > :02:14.given credit for. There should be a genuine attempt to understand the
:02:15. > :02:21.motives and to see the situation on the ground. There is talk about
:02:22. > :02:26.Russia meddling in Ukraine and I am told, where is the evidence? The
:02:27. > :02:29.evidence is that these people speak Russian but half the Ukrainians
:02:30. > :02:37.speak Russian as their first language, so that is the difficulty.
:02:38. > :02:41.President Poroshenko has been sworn in and said that people should lay
:02:42. > :02:46.down their weapons. That seems to have been welcomed in Moscow. Do use
:02:47. > :02:52.it possible that Ukraine and Russia can solve their differences? I do
:02:53. > :02:59.not think there is any other way. They will have to. It has been a
:03:00. > :03:06.difficult 20 years in relationships between Ukraine and Russia. It has
:03:07. > :03:11.been overlooked. In Moscow, definitely, the way that the
:03:12. > :03:19.relationship has been developing in this negative, very negative,
:03:20. > :03:23.manner. You do not move Ukraine and you do not move Russia. They are
:03:24. > :03:29.destined to sit next each other and cooperate. The interesting thing is
:03:30. > :03:33.that at the end of the Cold War there have been huge changes but
:03:34. > :03:41.there has never been the equivalent of the Congress of Vienna, the
:03:42. > :03:44.equivalent of big powers with differences sitting down together
:03:45. > :03:51.and deciding what kind of future we want for Europe. We kid ourselves to
:03:52. > :04:00.think that conflict of an old nature are behind us. They are inherent
:04:01. > :04:07.mindsets that have shown themselves to be still present and President
:04:08. > :04:10.Putin has said that the demise of the Soviet Union is the biggest
:04:11. > :04:17.catastrophe of modern days and he seems to think in terms of the old
:04:18. > :04:31.communist ideology of the near abroad, of adjacent countries
:04:32. > :04:34.somehow belonging to Russia. We tend to completely forget about the
:04:35. > :04:38.Russian contribution to winning the Second World War. One thing that
:04:39. > :04:43.will fully comes out of D`Day is that we become more aware of the
:04:44. > :04:43.enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably more
:04:44. > :04:51.enormous sacrifice, and Russia was probably instrumental than all of
:04:52. > :04:56.the others combined. This awareness is always overshadowed by the topic
:04:57. > :05:03.of conflict about Ukraine which detracts us from recognising
:05:04. > :05:13.Russia's contribution. It was never written down. You mentioned the
:05:14. > :05:22.Congress of Vienna. A year from now we will be doing the 200th
:05:23. > :05:29.anniversary. They were partitioned. When the great powers get together,
:05:30. > :05:35.whether it is at the un or elsewhere, they always mess things
:05:36. > :05:44.up and we end up with Civil War. Including Iraq and elsewhere. And in
:05:45. > :05:50.the Balkans. Europe has so much history and so many anniversaries we
:05:51. > :05:54.can mark and so on. What I have learned in all of the years I have
:05:55. > :05:58.covered civil wars and conflicts, and I think this might apply in
:05:59. > :06:01.Ukraine, the leaders of the great powers can say one thing but it does
:06:02. > :06:09.not mean that another thing happens on the ground. A territory, and
:06:10. > :06:15.nation, if they wants to fight it out, President Putin can say what he
:06:16. > :06:21.wants and needle can see what they want, if the people living inside
:06:22. > :06:26.this state do not want to stay together, it will be very difficult
:06:27. > :06:34.to stay together. What I learned is that on both sides, in the east and
:06:35. > :06:47.the west, people will say, look at what happened to check in Slovakia.
:06:48. > :06:51.It was only two weeks ago that I learned that over 25 million
:06:52. > :06:58.Russians died in the Second World War. We were not taught at all about
:06:59. > :07:15.the Russian role in the defeat of Nasr them `` Nazism. Soviets. It is
:07:16. > :07:22.very important. We have done anniversary after anniversary. We
:07:23. > :07:31.never teach our children about that this war would not have been won
:07:32. > :07:34.without them. When we were in school, maybe not, but I am sure in
:07:35. > :07:38.the 70s and 80s. You are school, maybe not, but I am sure in
:07:39. > :07:43.the 70s and 80s. wrong. I checked with my daughter, who was 21 this
:07:44. > :07:49.year. I asked her if she was taught about the Russians. They were taught
:07:50. > :07:55.about the siege of Stalingrad, but that is it. They were not got. There
:07:56. > :08:01.is a myth that this country has developed, good old Britain and a
:08:02. > :08:07.bit of America, won the war. We have to get rid of that. Our children
:08:08. > :08:15.have to define this moment as a collective. The problem with Russia
:08:16. > :08:22.as there are several chapters where the next one wipes out the previous
:08:23. > :08:26.one. We were looking at the Cold War, and identity, in relation to
:08:27. > :08:32.our interests and there was very little appetite to remember. History
:08:33. > :08:49.is history. People are taught that and taught about Poland being
:08:50. > :08:56.divided. I am not be so be it. `` a Soviet. They are not taught because
:08:57. > :09:08.Britain, our allies, that only came in ten years ago. Tel Michael Gove
:09:09. > :09:11.to teach them about this. Britain and Germany argue over the choice of
:09:12. > :09:17.the person likely to become the leader of the European Union. Why is
:09:18. > :09:28.David Cameron so set against one of the candidates? I do not think he is
:09:29. > :09:38.going to be the new head. Angela Merkel argued for it because she
:09:39. > :09:41.wears two hats. He is a representative of the European
:09:42. > :09:46.Council where she is an important head of government and the European
:09:47. > :09:51.Council is in no we agreed on giving this candidate the head. You have to
:09:52. > :09:57.ask which point of view is eventually going to win the day. One
:09:58. > :10:04.phrase in the Lisbon Treaty which is often not recognised, the right of
:10:05. > :10:08.suggesting the head of the commission lies with the European
:10:09. > :10:13.Council while giving due allowance to the result of the elections. One
:10:14. > :10:17.camp say that giving due allowance to the elections means it is that
:10:18. > :10:21.candidate because of the majority rule in Parliament but this year the
:10:22. > :10:25.elections have brought out a different result altogether, not
:10:26. > :10:31.just names and figureheads of parties, but this huge alienation
:10:32. > :10:35.people feel towards Brussels and the wording of the Lisbon Treaty making
:10:36. > :10:39.allowances for the result means you have to be aware of the need for
:10:40. > :10:51.some fresh approach to solving the problem. Are you suggesting Angela
:10:52. > :11:00.Merkel is being duplicitous? Because she is a woman! She is between a
:11:01. > :11:06.rock and a hard place. She cannot make up her mind. Is he not regarded
:11:07. > :11:14.as the poster boy for business in Europe? One of the problems for the
:11:15. > :11:18.European Union and for the council and the commission is it is the same
:11:19. > :11:26.faces year in, year out. People have made careers out of the gravy
:11:27. > :11:30.train. It is part of the corruption, which is not to say that
:11:31. > :11:34.all of the people in Europe, as is the mess in the newspapers, wants
:11:35. > :11:42.the end of the euro and the end of the European Union, what they want
:11:43. > :11:49.is an end to the old boys network `` old boys' network. The only other
:11:50. > :11:56.name being bandied about is the person running the IMF. If you ask
:11:57. > :12:03.me, that is a much more powerful job, and she gets to live in
:12:04. > :12:08.Washington. There is this interesting thing about European
:12:09. > :12:18.democracy. Was it evil against the European Union or evil against
:12:19. > :12:27.national government `` at the old a vote? It was both. There is this
:12:28. > :12:32.madness that Europe is all of our problems, which it is not, but I
:12:33. > :12:44.want to break the network. Not a single woman, just white men others
:12:45. > :12:48.`` of a certain age. Do people care? 51% of us care very much about
:12:49. > :12:58.women. But I mean care about the job? A lot of us. We are very
:12:59. > :13:02.ignorant about the problems. I think it would help if you got a fresh
:13:03. > :13:08.face who was not part of this club but who was also a woman. It is
:13:09. > :13:16.time. Europe, it is time. Perceptions are very important. Very
:13:17. > :13:21.few candidates,, it has been said about insiders and the elite kind of
:13:22. > :13:26.personality but you have to have the perception of a fresh face on a new
:13:27. > :13:29.beginning. A new beginning is important. People feel distanced
:13:30. > :13:31.from the centre of the European heart and you have to take
:13:32. > :13:40.recognition of this alienation and to go ahead business as usual would
:13:41. > :13:47.be disastrous. The man has done himself a great disservice. He has
:13:48. > :13:53.been tweeting about being confident about getting the top job and then
:13:54. > :14:02.seeing his party are against him. I do not think that quality in him is
:14:03. > :14:07.completely disqualified. If indeed the is an art federalist as he is
:14:08. > :14:14.described, he definitely is somebody that the German voters, as the
:14:15. > :14:23.We are paying for these people. What We are paying for
:14:24. > :14:48.collection of nations pulling every way? That is not what we want
:14:49. > :14:53.obvious UK made not in favour of it. That would probably influence the
:14:54. > :15:03.outcome of the Scottish referendum. Yes. Barack Obama was pretty
:15:04. > :15:05.remarkable this week saying that it was very clear that Britain should
:15:06. > :15:17.stay in the EU and Scotland should stay in the UK. Why should we listen
:15:18. > :15:25.to what the United States says? He was handing out, as the leader of
:15:26. > :15:40.the free world and still the only hit Germany `` hegemony. He is not
:15:41. > :15:40.alone. The leagues do not like geopolitical changes, whether it
:15:41. > :15:48.comes through the Civil War. They like the map of the
:15:49. > :15:51.policies, and they've got more if it changes, they have to
:15:52. > :15:54.important things to worry about. But I do think as an official view from
:15:55. > :16:12.outside, it has got nothing to do with ideology,
:16:13. > :16:22.living in America, all over the former Empire who would see, I will
:16:23. > :16:27.tell you why. It is because Scotland is it's `` is its own nation. 200
:16:28. > :16:34.years ago, we could say that break away from the wonderful
:16:35. > :16:39.British Empire? We would say, 13 countries, you're not thinking about
:16:40. > :16:45.federalising yourselves, are you? You could still rejoin the great
:16:46. > :16:51.British Empire. I wonder, it makes headlines, I don't think it will
:16:52. > :16:56.change a single vote. Barack Obama said people will make up their own
:16:57. > :17:02.minds. How would America feel if we had said, we in Europe do not
:17:03. > :17:07.approve of what is happening there. I think it is good the Scots are
:17:08. > :17:18.being asked. During the British Civil War... It was alongside at ``
:17:19. > :17:22.time ago. I think it is good because this has been an emotional feeling
:17:23. > :17:26.in the Scots for so long, let them have their say, and I think it has
:17:27. > :17:33.been very badly handled by our leaders. The yes campaign, a lot are
:17:34. > :17:38.politicians lectured them about what politicians lectured them about what
:17:39. > :17:43.would happen, these scare stories, that they are going to do it for the
:17:44. > :17:49.wrong reasons, just to show them, to show the English, which has been
:17:50. > :17:53.their motive for life. It is very rarely people are being asked about
:17:54. > :17:59.who they are and what identity they attach to themselves, and this makes
:18:00. > :18:03.for a fascinating story. I understand Barack Obama, because I
:18:04. > :18:07.think Britain might fragment, and we cannot reconcile that in our minds
:18:08. > :18:16.with British history and Europe as a whole. I understand that they want
:18:17. > :18:26.big nation states to stay together because if written fragments, then
:18:27. > :18:30.it is a signal for Spain, Bavaria... Nobody has mentioned the Northern
:18:31. > :18:35.Ireland dilemma. Look at the mess that was created by the splitting
:18:36. > :18:39.off of Ireland. The emotional mess in Northern Ireland to this day. A
:18:40. > :18:46.population planted there who has loyalty to the United Kingdom. We
:18:47. > :18:52.have our own examples of how difficult these situations are.
:18:53. > :18:55.Moving on, when British Cabinet ministers congratulate each other on
:18:56. > :19:00.doing a great job it is often a sign that they have had a really serious
:19:01. > :19:06.disagreement. So it is with Michael Gove and to reason May. The argument
:19:07. > :19:10.is over Islamic extremism. It is about whether the state should act
:19:11. > :19:14.against terrorism or extremist teachings. What do you think about
:19:15. > :19:18.that big argument about what you should do about people who are
:19:19. > :19:23.believed to be teaching things which you regard as extremist? One of the
:19:24. > :19:30.things we need to be clear about is there is terrorism, extremism,
:19:31. > :19:35.fundamentalism, conservative Islam, and each one produces a whole bucket
:19:36. > :19:40.of problems. It is important to look at the country we are, which is
:19:41. > :19:43.next, liberal democracy, and look at the problems. I cannot bear how
:19:44. > :19:51.lazily politicians and journalists mixed them up as if for a child to
:19:52. > :19:54.be taught is land is the only faith and you must not mixed with
:19:55. > :19:59.non`Muslims, which is a terrible thing happening in our schools, is
:20:00. > :20:04.the same as somebody being taught to go and bomb yourself in the name of
:20:05. > :20:08.whatever. I think we should be clearer. I cannot be Michael Gove
:20:09. > :20:12.and I don't trust anything he says, but I know for a fact as a Muslim
:20:13. > :20:18.journalist there is a problem in some of these schools. There is a
:20:19. > :20:24.problem of self exclusion. Of being taught... I had an e`mail yesterday
:20:25. > :20:32.from a young boy who is gay and in one of these schools. It made me
:20:33. > :20:38.weep. Because he can express... He is so frightened, he is threatening
:20:39. > :20:42.to kill himself. He said he is so scared, he thinks he is going to
:20:43. > :20:48.die. We have to think about the particularities of each of these
:20:49. > :20:53.problems. Muslims are right in saying we are not all terrorists or
:20:54. > :20:59.extremist, we need to be clearer. It is a basic principle of British
:21:00. > :21:07.legislation that you do not criticise people for what they
:21:08. > :21:17.think. What you do is different when it is about people who commit acts.
:21:18. > :21:20.In this case, this is one where free schools `` these schools in
:21:21. > :21:28.Birmingham, this one had the highest ratings of Ofsted and is now going
:21:29. > :21:31.to be taken into special measures, effectively taken into
:21:32. > :21:35.administration by the state. We don't know the facts. Moving onto
:21:36. > :21:41.the political, what happens now is you have two senior Cabinet
:21:42. > :21:47.figures, both of whom may be jockeying to replace David Cameron
:21:48. > :21:55.in the future. One of them is a former newspaper columnist. In all
:21:56. > :22:02.his years in politics, he has never lost his newspaper columnist
:22:03. > :22:07.instincts. He says staff to stir up the pot. He was great at that when
:22:08. > :22:13.he was at the times but he is a Minister of state, and he flies off
:22:14. > :22:20.half cocked now. It is education, it is a very serious portfolio and he
:22:21. > :22:26.is now in a conflict with Theresa May, and he may be exacerbating what
:22:27. > :22:29.is going on in the schools because now the entire nation's focus is on
:22:30. > :22:36.the schools and we don't know what has been going on. When you decide
:22:37. > :22:41.to free schools up, this is his big project, free schools, faith
:22:42. > :22:45.schools, the number of faith schools has shot up, and you decide what
:22:46. > :22:54.will be taught. He started this problem. The free schools started
:22:55. > :23:02.this problem. To me, it sounds like the core issue, the problem of
:23:03. > :23:08.extremism or whatever is overshadowed by a personality clash.
:23:09. > :23:17.You open any newspaper and it is mostly about May versus Michael Gove
:23:18. > :23:23.or vice versa. That is not it. The deeper existential problem is that
:23:24. > :23:27.of identifying extremism. Exactly. The really difficult problem, which
:23:28. > :23:34.has been a problem for years, has been what does a tolerant society do
:23:35. > :23:38.about people who preach things which are fundamentally intolerant? What
:23:39. > :23:43.do you do about that? Michael Gove has put his finger on that. His
:23:44. > :23:49.Cabinet colleague says he was slow on the uptake. That is interesting
:23:50. > :23:56.when you mention the tolerant society. I have always found Britain
:23:57. > :24:01.to be overcautious, not trying to get heavy with a sledgehammer when
:24:02. > :24:08.these problems occur. No other country let these problems fester
:24:09. > :24:14.for so long. Look at Abu Hamza, how long he was allowed to preach
:24:15. > :24:22.outside his mosque. Now in jail in the states. At the same time, when
:24:23. > :24:39.trees a stand`up and pretends to be the liberal in this... `` Theresa
:24:40. > :24:41.May. She is not a liberal. But she has presented herself. We are
:24:42. > :24:45.arresting more and more of young Muslims, and the anger is partly
:24:46. > :24:53.leading is a very difficult rob them, and
:24:54. > :24:54.Michael Gove, through freeing up education, has created part of it,
:24:55. > :25:06.but very unhelpful. What do you do about
:25:07. > :25:12.people who are the hate preachers? Whether it is Abu Hamza or people
:25:13. > :25:16.who are more subtle, what do you do? I would not have had them on the BBC
:25:17. > :25:25.as often as they were. They became more prominent because, especially
:25:26. > :25:30.Abu Hamza, you could not turn the radio on without hearing him
:25:31. > :25:36.ranting. Those are full offensive preachers have gone from the media
:25:37. > :25:41.now. What you have to do is put down guidelines. `` those terrible
:25:42. > :25:45.offensive preachers. You cannot hire people who insist on gender
:25:46. > :25:52.segregation at universities. That is not what they are about. That is
:25:53. > :25:56.what Theresa May is saying, she wants a mandatory code of conduct,
:25:57. > :26:01.not a voluntary one. She wants schools to be forced to follow a
:26:02. > :26:06.mandatory conduct. We have got a mandatory winding up because we have
:26:07. > :26:11.ran out of time. That is it for Dateline London for this week. You
:26:12. > :26:39.can contact us on Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye.
:26:40. > :26:49.lightning this morning. More to come this afternoon. Some of us who have
:26:50. > :26:51.not had the storms so far or the downpours, they could be on their