:00:00. > :00:00.There is a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Now on BBC
:00:00. > :00:22.News, here is Dateline London with Gavin Esler and his guests.
:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:29.Why has Iraq been such easy prey for the Islamist militants of ISIS?
:00:30. > :00:32.How far does this group threaten the wider Middle East, and Europe?
:00:33. > :00:33.And should British schools teach British values?
:00:34. > :00:44.My guests today are Mina al Oraibi, Safak Timur of the BBC's Turkish
:00:45. > :00:47.service, Jef McAllister who is an American writer and broadcaster
:00:48. > :00:52.Not so long ago, under Saddam Hussein,
:00:53. > :00:56.Iraq had what was reputed to be the fifth largest army in the world.
:00:57. > :00:59.This week, faced with the Islamic militants
:01:00. > :01:03.of ISIS, Iraqi soldiers turned and fled, allowing ISIS to occupy
:01:04. > :01:10.The United States and Iran, unlikely allies you might think, both
:01:11. > :01:13.suggested they might in different ways help the beleaguered government
:01:14. > :01:17.of Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, but is the core of the problem that
:01:18. > :01:20.Mr Maliki has alienated significant sections of Iraq's population
:01:21. > :01:26.and proved himself an incompetent leader?
:01:27. > :01:35.How do you see what has gone wrong? So many things have gone wrong.
:01:36. > :01:41.Problems are coming to a head now. That really is what is happening.
:01:42. > :01:47.You spoke about the Iraqi army and the fact they were freezing. They
:01:48. > :01:52.weren't given the command to fight. `` for Liam. They were not fire
:01:53. > :02:00.eating and then ran away. You had militant
:02:01. > :02:09.they have fighter power. `` they were not fighting and then ran
:02:10. > :02:12.away. It takes us back to back down. The Prime Minister and the
:02:13. > :02:16.Government hold much of the responsibility for the failure to
:02:17. > :02:20.protect their citizens. That is what the Government is meant to do.
:02:21. > :02:27.Provide some security, at least, and they have not been able to provide
:02:28. > :02:33.any. This year, killings were going up to 1000 civilians being killed
:02:34. > :02:38.per month. Hardly reported. Now that there is the spectre of terrorism
:02:39. > :02:42.and the fact it could be an Al`Qaeda related ISIS group, we have the US
:02:43. > :02:49.speaking about this. But going back to back that and Nouri al`Maliki,
:02:50. > :02:52.the reason he holds such responsibility is that he helped the
:02:53. > :02:59.security files for the last few years. There is no defence minister.
:03:00. > :03:04.No defence minister. The Minister of culture is acting defence minister.
:03:05. > :03:07.There is no minister of interior. Basically Nouri al`Maliki has said
:03:08. > :03:15.the security file is with him. So there are many questions about his
:03:16. > :03:19.role. Not only have they failed in Mosul and other parts, they failed
:03:20. > :03:26.over the last few years and no one was held to account. When we have
:03:27. > :03:33.seen these people being recruited, we have heard about militias being
:03:34. > :03:37.reformed and so on. Is it right to say that one of Nouri al`Maliki's
:03:38. > :03:42.successes is that the Shia militias have not been completely disbanded,
:03:43. > :03:46.they are effectively re`forming when there is a perfectly workable and
:03:47. > :03:52.supposedly rather good army been given orders to fight. Is there a
:03:53. > :03:56.militia problem? There will be a militia problem, but the reason it
:03:57. > :04:04.has come about now is that for the last few days you have had senior
:04:05. > :04:10.clerics, there was a call from a very revered cleric, a call for
:04:11. > :04:16.people to take up arms and defend the holy sites of Iraq. There is
:04:17. > :04:23.much concerned that the militias were, again.
:04:24. > :04:27.It was a political decision to get involved in the political process as
:04:28. > :04:30.they felt they could get something out of it and that is the difference
:04:31. > :04:33.between a political decision to get involved in the political process as
:04:34. > :04:39.they felt they could get something out of it and that is the difference
:04:40. > :04:50.between other places. How far should we see this as a secretary and
:04:51. > :04:56.fight? `` a sectarian fight. The way they medical system has been put in
:04:57. > :05:01.Iraq and the way it has gone is that they have false pretences that they
:05:02. > :05:06.say they have represented this sect or ethnicity. That is what seems to
:05:07. > :05:09.work in terms of getting support outside of the country and within
:05:10. > :05:17.the country. I don't believe that is what people for example in Mosul or
:05:18. > :05:22.Basra. What they want is to be able to lead their lives. In Mosul,
:05:23. > :05:31.checkpoints have been set up for years on end. It didn't keep people
:05:32. > :05:37.safe, most people had not visited other relatives in the last few
:05:38. > :05:42.years. Checkpoints have been taken out, why would you do that? That is
:05:43. > :05:46.the problem, the fight is on the ground are savvy enough to know that
:05:47. > :05:51.there are local grievances about day`to`day life, simple things, that
:05:52. > :06:00.the Government refused to address. Listening to Barack Obama talking
:06:01. > :06:04.about this, he really laid the blame on Nouri al`Maliki, didn't you? You
:06:05. > :06:10.said this is not a security issue, this is a political problem. `` he
:06:11. > :06:15.said. That makes a lot of sense from his point of view. To Barack Obama,
:06:16. > :06:24.the Iraq war in some sense is the fact that the reason he hears
:06:25. > :06:29.presence. His whole presidency, he has trying to manage it. `` his
:06:30. > :06:34.presidency. The reasons you allude to, he thinks this is fundamentally
:06:35. > :06:40.a political problem, that the US unleashed a huge set of political
:06:41. > :06:46.problems because of a dumb invasion and a badly run occupation. He now
:06:47. > :07:04.has to figure out what can I do that will contain terrorism? He doesn't
:07:05. > :07:11.want it to happen on political reasons. He has to figure out he can
:07:12. > :07:20.do, but he does not think you can solve the problem with the tools he
:07:21. > :07:24.has that hand. He has a sophisticated understanding that
:07:25. > :07:28.just because the US has the greatest hammer in the world, not all
:07:29. > :07:31.problems are nails. This is a definite problem for politics. It is
:07:32. > :07:41.the same problem that Americans faced in Vietnam. Huge strategic
:07:42. > :07:47.interests depend upon the political direction of countries where there
:07:48. > :07:50.is corruption and dissent. There probably will BS strikes, they will
:07:51. > :08:07.be something to try to control this. ASH Mack the air strikes. There will
:08:08. > :08:13.be a huge... Strange bedfellows, the Americans and Iranians. But feel
:08:14. > :08:22.sorry for the people of Iraq. How was the scene from Turkey. Almost
:08:23. > :08:27.100 people have been taken and they are still not in Turkey, we don't
:08:28. > :08:36.know anything about them. The first priority for Turkey now is to get
:08:37. > :08:41.their people out. Still it seems like they are in shock and they are
:08:42. > :08:49.on the diplomatic level trying to get people out of Iraq safely. This
:08:50. > :08:55.is the first priority. Behind this, we have the impression that the
:08:56. > :09:01.governments seem unprepared about the upcoming events. Perhaps because
:09:02. > :09:09.it was so quick. I think everybody knew there was a problem with ISIS,
:09:10. > :09:13.but the fact that the Iraqi army appears to have collapsed or left
:09:14. > :09:23.the battlefield, that presumably to Turkey by surprise. `` took Turkey.
:09:24. > :09:39.Analysts were saying that we have been warning you about ISIS, that
:09:40. > :09:42.they will turn against you, so they were warning the Government, saying
:09:43. > :09:51.this is a danger coming. Keep it down. Leave the politics about
:09:52. > :10:00.fuelling sectarian divisions. Ignoring all these warnings, they
:10:01. > :10:07.can now say, see? William Hague could not have been clear, we are
:10:08. > :10:11.basically not going to get involved. The Government has the problem with
:10:12. > :10:15.Syria debate where they once led the way into trying to get intervention
:10:16. > :10:20.and them were stopped by Parliament. I think that is in the background.
:10:21. > :10:28.But this is a Government that is trying to define itself against the
:10:29. > :10:31.Blair approach. A lot of people are seeing it through the prism of old
:10:32. > :10:37.battles and it would help if everyone tried to `` if everybody
:10:38. > :10:43.tried to stop fighting the war is over the past and see the reality of
:10:44. > :10:49.now. The famous phrase from Colin Powell, if you break it, you own it,
:10:50. > :10:55.there is some moral responsibility here, isn't there? There is no doubt
:10:56. > :11:02.that the events of 2003 have led to this. If Saddam had stayed in power,
:11:03. > :11:11.they would not have been an Arab Spring. `` there. I think it is
:11:12. > :11:14.pointless to fight those battles. It is an issue that is very serious on
:11:15. > :11:23.political terms and increasingly on humanitarian terms. What do you see
:11:24. > :11:31.is happening next? A well`trained army, if it will probably lead and
:11:32. > :11:36.giving orders, there aren't many people in ISIS. They could have
:11:37. > :11:44.faced them. There is already talk that there are different groups in
:11:45. > :11:50.control in Mosul. Remnants of the former Army, remember there are
:11:51. > :11:59.people that were taking out from the Iraqi army that were never brought
:12:00. > :12:04.back in. In addition to the fact that they disbanded the army. Many
:12:05. > :12:08.army members want party members and they were disbanded. They have been
:12:09. > :12:14.left for years. And we have had organised crime in Iraq. There is
:12:15. > :12:20.organised crime. How many stories have we read about bank rates over
:12:21. > :12:27.the last year? These people were buying arms and they were preparing
:12:28. > :12:30.for a day like this to come. There are people fighting this. They have
:12:31. > :12:36.a marriage of convenience with ISIS. I do not think it will last. I think
:12:37. > :12:40.you will start to see infighting. The politicians in back that should
:12:41. > :12:48.hopefully have the foresight, I do not know they do, to make an
:12:49. > :12:53.outreach to those in Mosul, to the citizens and the leaders, and say,
:12:54. > :12:57.come to Baghdad, tell us what your demands are and can we come to an
:12:58. > :13:03.agreement? That is usual wishful thinking on my behalf. Blood will
:13:04. > :13:14.not stop in Baghdad. Will it be too late? I think everyone has... The
:13:15. > :13:25.politicians have lost out by what is happening now. They are discredited.
:13:26. > :13:33.Willie government to be formed. `` we need. We need to wait for an
:13:34. > :13:37.actual government. You have some gains being made, but they will not
:13:38. > :13:43.hold its long if there are American strikes, especially. So they need a
:13:44. > :13:46.deal if they want to not be overthrown entirely. There is a
:13:47. > :13:51.moment now where there is not full blood, there is an eerie calm where
:13:52. > :13:56.people don't know what happens next. This could be make or break. Does
:13:57. > :14:03.anyone think that Iraq and the borders of the Middle East, that
:14:04. > :14:09.this will be rewritten? That Iraq will cease to exist? It is hard to
:14:10. > :14:21.avoid the conclusion that if the borders were different, perhaps the
:14:22. > :14:25.conclusions would be different. It is not really... It should not be up
:14:26. > :14:29.to the west to impose this, it should come out of political
:14:30. > :14:37.solutions from the ground. Turkish people would be worried about that,
:14:38. > :14:43.because of the Kurdish question, many who would like a homeland and
:14:44. > :14:49.it affects Turkey and Iraq and Iran. For a while, Turkey is just having
:14:50. > :14:59.negotiations with the Kurdish militant group in Turkey, fighting
:15:00. > :15:01.with the government four years. Although the Turkish government
:15:02. > :15:12.as elections are coming for a as elections are coming for a
:15:13. > :15:19.general and presidential elections, but sooner or later, they will have
:15:20. > :15:23.two solve the issue as all of the doubt developments `` all of the
:15:24. > :15:27.developments in Syria and the region, the first thing they should
:15:28. > :15:37.do is to make a settlement with the Kurdish militant group. And Do you
:15:38. > :15:43.think your country could fall apart? Has it already fallen apart?
:15:44. > :15:50.There are areas of Kurdish influence, Sunni areas which are out
:15:51. > :15:56.of control of Baghdad. I think I have always refused to say that Iraq
:15:57. > :16:03.could fall apart, but we could see it happening. What I fear is that
:16:04. > :16:09.while the West can't decide this, there are those internationally
:16:10. > :16:14.speaking saying, let's try to get a settlement with Iraq and Syria
:16:15. > :16:20.together by redrawing borders. We have to remember that a lot of
:16:21. > :16:24.civilians suffered, and is a resettlement decision was made, it
:16:25. > :16:29.would not be clear in any way and it is not a solution. Do you ever
:16:30. > :16:33.wonder why America has been so keen to Advanta rainy and foreign
:16:34. > :16:42.policy? Perhaps the only winner out of this is Iran. I would also say
:16:43. > :16:46.that Al`Qaeda is a winner in this. It is a mystery in some sense, but I
:16:47. > :16:55.think that it is not mysterious if you look at the decision made by
:16:56. > :16:59.George Bush. He was not thinking about enhancing Iranian influence at
:17:00. > :17:02.the start of the Iraq war! This is not the way that Americans conceive
:17:03. > :17:06.the problem. They had this thing about Iraq that came from the first
:17:07. > :17:11.Gulf War and the strange George Bush fixation with Iraq. The fact that
:17:12. > :17:16.all these consequences have flowed from what seems to them a simple
:17:17. > :17:28.decision to fight terrorism, it is not in their imagination. So this is
:17:29. > :17:31.one of those great imperial mistakes were a country, very rich and
:17:32. > :17:39.powerful, shoots itself in the foot, or maybe other locations a
:17:40. > :17:42.kind of arrogance and ignorance. And of course, many Americans have died,
:17:43. > :17:47.and many other people in the region have suffered as a result, and I'm
:17:48. > :17:52.afraid we don't see any clear path to getting this fixed.
:17:53. > :17:58.The education Secretary Michael Gove has reacted to the row about alleged
:17:59. > :18:01.is it extremist infiltration in some schools in Birmingham. The
:18:02. > :18:09.allegations are so far improved. He announced that all schools should
:18:10. > :18:15.promote British values. What on earth does he have in mind? Is this
:18:16. > :18:17.a wise idea? Are there any British values? People in Scotland and
:18:18. > :18:22.England may have different values, potentially. I think people in
:18:23. > :18:26.neighbouring streets have different values. The idea of British news is
:18:27. > :18:30.an absurd thing, a flag raised by politicians when they need to get
:18:31. > :18:35.out of a hole. Gordon Brown started the search for the mythical
:18:36. > :18:37.Britishness because he was a disliked Scottish Premier in London.
:18:38. > :18:42.No Michael Gove is doing it for political reasons. It is absurd.
:18:43. > :18:47.Everybody has their own set of values. They might be values of
:18:48. > :18:52.democracy and freedom that go back to the Enlightenment, and you could
:18:53. > :18:55.say that Voltaire was the person who defined British values. And he was
:18:56. > :19:00.not British! There are British characteristics, but that is a
:19:01. > :19:06.different thing, and it is a puerile search, the idea of British values.
:19:07. > :19:10.Are the Turkish values? We were always making fun when politicians
:19:11. > :19:17.say, let's do something based on Turkish values, we are citizens of a
:19:18. > :19:21.country that is so complex. What are Turkish values? We have a very
:19:22. > :19:25.strong sense of nationalism in Turkey, but what comes to my mind,
:19:26. > :19:34.considering all these things that we have debated about radical Islamist
:19:35. > :19:40.and, will this promote the sense of a negative portrayal of Muslim
:19:41. > :19:43.people in Britain? That would be talking about shooting yourself in
:19:44. > :19:48.the fight, that will be a disaster. Using some people worry about that?
:19:49. > :19:54.It is a way of saying that either you subscribe to the following list
:19:55. > :19:59.or you're not one of us? Maybe. I don't consider myself as a solid
:20:00. > :20:03.believer in Islam, although I come from a muscle in country, but when
:20:04. > :20:06.you are in a foreign country, you feel you are different, although
:20:07. > :20:11.London doesn't make you feel that way, because it is so integrated,
:20:12. > :20:16.all these differences. But yes, sometimes it makes me feel like
:20:17. > :20:20.that. What do you make of this? I think that, with the fact that
:20:21. > :20:24.British values are being raised in response of the so`called Islamist
:20:25. > :20:27.extremist threat, that should be treated as a legal problem. You can
:20:28. > :20:31.go into any school, whatever they are trying to teach them, and not be
:20:32. > :20:36.sticking to the curriculum and the laws of what people are taught. It
:20:37. > :20:41.should be treated as a criminal issue. If standards are not good
:20:42. > :20:48.enough, it is not about criminal activity. It should be regulated.
:20:49. > :20:53.That is a completely different conversation. British values, I
:20:54. > :20:57.think there are British characteristics, and when I lived in
:20:58. > :21:01.Washington, there was a side of me that suddenly felt was that did not
:21:02. > :21:13.feel that before! Now that I and here I feel more erratic! `` Iraqi.
:21:14. > :21:19.And American values? It is a phrase that politicians in various cultures
:21:20. > :21:23.use, often when they are in trouble. And it changes over time. Martin
:21:24. > :21:27.Luther King was considered a dangerous communist by the powers
:21:28. > :21:30.that be when he was active, and he is now considered an exemplar of the
:21:31. > :21:37.best of American values by most Americans. These things are not
:21:38. > :21:41.static. There is a dog whistle quality to the Michael Gove
:21:42. > :21:46.discussion of which values, trying to appeal to UKIP voters, standing
:21:47. > :21:51.up for Britain in a different sense. In Europe, this is more complicated
:21:52. > :21:55.than it is in the US, which is multiethnic by definition, but in
:21:56. > :22:00.France, with the National front or Golden Dorn, what are Greek values,
:22:01. > :22:04.what are French values? There is an ethnicity combines with a set of
:22:05. > :22:11.beliefs that can become dangerous or toxic or off`putting to those who
:22:12. > :22:14.have come in by a different route, and it is perhaps intended to. I do
:22:15. > :22:18.not think Michael Gove is like that, although he did say that there is
:22:19. > :22:23.something rather British about what is trying to define what is British.
:22:24. > :22:28.Now he is in government, it is different! It is important for
:22:29. > :22:31.Britain. This is a complex thing, a legal problem, and intelligence
:22:32. > :22:37.problem. How do you separate out possible extremists who are growing
:22:38. > :22:43.up in British cities, in neighbourhoods where they are not
:22:44. > :22:47.allowed to leave because of racism. You can develop a sense that you are
:22:48. > :22:52.not part of Britain in places like this. Talking about democracy and
:22:53. > :22:55.fair play, tolerance, those are good things, but you have to make sure
:22:56. > :22:59.you do it in a way that does not make people feel excluded. If there
:23:00. > :23:02.is a British value, it is the fact that you do not try to define
:23:03. > :23:07.British values, because British is a complex fuzzy idea, and the
:23:08. > :23:12.constitution is written, it is a fuzzy constitution, and that is what
:23:13. > :23:19.Britishness is. But with you accept that there clearly is a problem with
:23:20. > :23:22.some people feeling that, in schools, they are learning stuff
:23:23. > :23:27.that is off the curriculum? Absolutely. But what about people
:23:28. > :23:30.with certain extremist views? Let me put it another way. Are we too
:23:31. > :23:35.tolerant of people who are fundamentally intolerant and to
:23:36. > :23:40.encourage others to do violence, even if they themselves do not? If
:23:41. > :23:44.they are inciting violence, that is a criminal action. It is clear cut.
:23:45. > :23:48.If they have views that are unpalatable, it is British that they
:23:49. > :23:51.should be able to hold them, and we have been a home for a long time for
:23:52. > :23:56.people seeking asylum, and long may that last. There is a whiff of is a
:23:57. > :24:00.phobia about this, and studies have shown that the most patriotic people
:24:01. > :24:06.in this country are Islamic immigrants from Pakistan. They are
:24:07. > :24:13.the most patriotic group in this country and there is a danger here
:24:14. > :24:15.that it is driving a wedge. It should not be encouraged. You put
:24:16. > :24:22.your finger on something important, people value freedom of speech.
:24:23. > :24:26.Freedom of speech at its core is not necessarily about talking, but about
:24:27. > :24:29.listening to people that you dislike and disagree with. Is that something
:24:30. > :24:38.that you see as quite fundamental here? I might not say it would be
:24:39. > :24:42.lost, but there is a danger that, if a politician is saying that, let's
:24:43. > :24:48.keep British values, in a country full of Muslim believers, what does
:24:49. > :24:56.that mean in practice for all these Muslim students in those schools?
:24:57. > :25:01.Are they going to be eliminated as potential members of an Islamist
:25:02. > :25:11.group? What will they feel in the face of all these practical things?
:25:12. > :25:17.Is there a whiff of Islamophobia in some of this debate? Yes, but there
:25:18. > :25:21.is also intimidation for pay`per`view do not have courage and
:25:22. > :25:25.have not been raised in homes where you are encouraged to raise your
:25:26. > :25:31.voice and question how things are done. That is why school is so
:25:32. > :25:38.important, because if you are coming from that background, from whatever
:25:39. > :25:42.ground, you could be having some sort of trouble at home and unable
:25:43. > :25:46.to Express your views, schools should provide that, especially if
:25:47. > :25:50.it is a state school. That is why this issue is important. Thank you
:25:51. > :25:54.very much. That is it for Dateline London this week. We are back next
:25:55. > :25:56.week at the same time. You can contact us on Twitter. Thank you for
:25:57. > :25:59.watching. Goodbye.