:00:24. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:27.The row over the presidency of the European Commission.
:00:28. > :00:32.And the phone hacking trial leads to the conviction of David Cameron's
:00:33. > :00:38.Barri Atwan who is an Arab writer and journalist
:00:39. > :00:41.Agnes Poirier of Marianne, Polly Toynbee of the Guardian
:00:42. > :00:48.Jean Claude Juncker once famously said of the EU during the financial
:00:49. > :00:51.crisis that we, the political leaders , know what to do, it's just
:00:52. > :00:55.that we don't know how to get re`elected once we have done it.
:00:56. > :00:58.The British prime minister David Cameron opposed Mr Juncker's
:00:59. > :01:00.appointment as President of The European Commission right to
:01:01. > :01:05.Where does all this leave Mr Cameron and the possibility
:01:06. > :01:21.What you think of Juncker? Juncker, funny how David Cameron personalised
:01:22. > :01:28.the issue to the point when the sun newspaper wrote he was Europe was no
:01:29. > :01:35.cry most dangerous man. He is an dangerous at all and is past his
:01:36. > :01:41.prime. He is no danger whatsoever. He has a sharp mind so he should not
:01:42. > :01:44.be dismissed but the thing that is extraordinary is nobody really
:01:45. > :01:50.wanted Juncker. Nobody, not that he isn't competent, he has been a
:01:51. > :01:59.European insider which isn't a bad thing. It means he's experienced. He
:02:00. > :02:02.knows how things are done. It isn't by bullying or given ultimatum is
:02:03. > :02:11.the way David Cameron has done this week. But he had a cause, David
:02:12. > :02:16.Cameron, which he could have won. How could he have played it
:02:17. > :02:23.differently? It was the charge of the light Brigade! Bullying is what
:02:24. > :02:27.you learn at Eton or Oxford but it isn't something that goes down well
:02:28. > :02:33.in Europe. You have to play by the rules, not to say in front of German
:02:34. > :02:38.TV cameras that Europe is the problem. It didn't go down well in
:02:39. > :02:46.Berlin. Stop antagonising everyone and he would have got his way.
:02:47. > :02:56.Honestly, it is strange why he is launching a war against the European
:02:57. > :03:00.Union and Brussels. What he is gaining, he has miscalculated,
:03:01. > :03:09.definitely. You can't impose your will on 26 countries. You can't say
:03:10. > :03:20.either we introduce reforms, except our reforms and ideas or we are not
:03:21. > :03:24.going to stay in the EU. From Mr Cameron?s perspective he is batting
:03:25. > :03:28.for Britain, he is a federalist so laying aside the personal thing, it
:03:29. > :03:32.is what Juncker believes and what he wants, a train towards a more
:03:33. > :03:39.perfect union and Britain doesn't want that. Cameron is hoping this is
:03:40. > :03:43.giving him a boost which it seems to be in the polls, people think he is
:03:44. > :03:47.taking a strong stand and the other parties are backing him in Britain.
:03:48. > :03:51.What he missed read was the fact this stuff about Juncker is a
:03:52. > :03:56.sideshow. He was going to lose the vote, that was clear weeks ago.
:03:57. > :04:01.People in Britain if they're going to vote against the Tory party it
:04:02. > :04:05.will not be because of strong Claude Juncker. It will be because they
:04:06. > :04:09.feel membership in the European Union hurts an economic league, that
:04:10. > :04:13.it isn't bring the benefits it should. If Cameron had been smart,
:04:14. > :04:17.he would have said I understand it's a lost cause but I will get
:04:18. > :04:23.something out of it, a strong economic portfolio for Britain in
:04:24. > :04:26.the EU that would liberalise services and bring greater benefits
:04:27. > :04:33.to the British people. That is a long game he would have been smarter
:04:34. > :04:35.playing. If he played the long game, the Conservatives would be within
:04:36. > :04:41.the European People's the Conservatives would be within
:04:42. > :04:45.the party the centre`right grouping. He has always played a quick
:04:46. > :04:50.advantage. Helping himself get elected, rallying his own party, he
:04:51. > :04:58.said we will pull out of the European People's party. He lost his
:04:59. > :05:03.influence with Angela Merkel, a majority in Europe of a party quite
:05:04. > :05:05.like the Conservatives, Christian Democrats, he would have been in
:05:06. > :05:12.there with the majority negotiating from the beginning. It is quite
:05:13. > :05:17.extraordinary people do mount. He seemed ignorant of the process and
:05:18. > :05:19.didn't understand that during the European elections someone was
:05:20. > :05:26.chosen as a candidate, this was not part of the British electoral
:05:27. > :05:32.campaign. There were public debates about it in English on TV. Cameron
:05:33. > :05:37.seemed to be asleep on the job. The Financial Times talks about his
:05:38. > :05:41.incompetence. He is an incompetent person because he's always after the
:05:42. > :05:46.short`term headlines and always late at the table and late at the game.
:05:47. > :05:52.This time, it has been a disaster. It looks as if we are getting nearer
:05:53. > :05:56.to the exit. The newspapers say we are getting nearer to the exit which
:05:57. > :06:02.isn't what he wants but maybe he is changing his mind. Maybe he is
:06:03. > :06:08.becoming a genuine Eurosceptic. Maybe that will help him win the
:06:09. > :06:12.election but it is short termism. He is damaging the interests of his
:06:13. > :06:19.country. Britain is hated in the European Union because to please
:06:20. > :06:27.some Eurosceptics? It does go down rather well with the voters in the
:06:28. > :06:33.short`term. Europe is in the major concern of the British. Few turned
:06:34. > :06:38.out in the European elections. British people will say this is
:06:39. > :06:41.typical of the European Union, a backstairs deal, somebody nobody
:06:42. > :06:50.beautifully once and he gets the job. It is good material propaganda
:06:51. > :06:55.for the tabloids. Yes, let's use Europe as a scapegoat. In the end,
:06:56. > :06:59.let's have the long view. He might be the British Prime Minister to
:07:00. > :07:07.take Britain out of Europe. He will have to face and to look at history
:07:08. > :07:11.in the eyes. Every time he has been willing to take the risk, he knows
:07:12. > :07:18.it is the wrong thing to do and would be a catastrophe for industry,
:07:19. > :07:23.the investors in Britain have said we would probably move if you pull
:07:24. > :07:28.out of Europe. So, he knows it is a real risk to the state of the
:07:29. > :07:34.economy so he's playing a short`term gain that is lethal. It could lead
:07:35. > :07:38.us to sleepwalk out of Europe. And everybody will lose because Europe
:07:39. > :07:44.will be damaged if Britain leaves. It is absurd that Juncker should be
:07:45. > :07:49.a charismatic leader, everyone be more horrified if he was. The fact
:07:50. > :07:52.he is a routine Eurocrat is about what people want because 27
:07:53. > :08:01.countries don't want to be led by some amazing governor like Tony
:08:02. > :08:09.Blair. It is not back kind of job. It is hard to get 27 people to agree
:08:10. > :08:16.to everything. Please take Tony Blair, in the Middle East, we have
:08:17. > :08:20.had enough of him! You would be doing us a favour.
:08:21. > :08:22.Journalists from Al Jazeera are in jail in Egypt provoking worldwide
:08:23. > :08:24.outrage at the increasingly dictatorial military regime there.
:08:25. > :08:28.Are we back to the bad old days of military dictatorship?
:08:29. > :08:31.And how far are these journalists pawns in the big Middle East game
:08:32. > :08:32.between Arab governments about their relationship with
:08:33. > :08:50.Diesel trumped up charges. Definitely, a kangaroo court.
:08:51. > :08:54.Military rule is coming back to Egypt and the Middle East. Those
:08:55. > :09:00.journalists are scapegoats, they are victims of the war between Kacar and
:09:01. > :09:07.Egypt. There is a huge problem between the two countries. Al
:09:08. > :09:17.Jazeera took a side supporting the Muslim Brotherhood which is owned by
:09:18. > :09:23.Kacar. That was the Arabic channel. Peter Greste it who I know doesn't
:09:24. > :09:27.even speak Arabic. They are professional, they were doing their
:09:28. > :09:33.job, they work for al Jazeera English and nothing to do with the
:09:34. > :09:37.problems between the countries. How can you convince a military dictator
:09:38. > :09:41.that those people are innocent and should not be sentenced to ten years
:09:42. > :09:48.in prison and simply because he hates cats are? A week ago they
:09:49. > :09:55.sentenced 183 people to death and before that more than a thousand.
:09:56. > :10:02.Egypt is going through a dictatorship phase. The military
:10:03. > :10:07.coup is now using the iron fist but those people are innocent and they
:10:08. > :10:16.should not be charged or tried. They can send them home, but to send them
:10:17. > :10:23.to imprisonment for ten years I think this is unfair and
:10:24. > :10:27.unjustified. And al Jazeera journalists have become a cause
:10:28. > :10:33.c?l?bre because they foreign and because of the wider she political
:10:34. > :10:36.situation but let's not forget Egypt has now over a dozen Egyptian
:10:37. > :10:42.journalists who are in prison, not just foreigners. This is a regime
:10:43. > :10:47.that is cracking down on free expression and dissent and we need
:10:48. > :10:51.to be clear about what is happening and the US, which you would have
:10:52. > :10:55.thought could exercise some influence over the government in
:10:56. > :11:00.Cairo, is not having any effect whatsoever. It was extraordinary
:11:01. > :11:04.that they did that as John Kerry was there. He renewed age, renewed
:11:05. > :11:09.links, terrible mistake and you would expect given these courts are
:11:10. > :11:15.so political that they would acknowledge that `` age. Is there
:11:16. > :11:23.anyway now that they could be got at, anyway anybody can influence
:11:24. > :11:34.them? General Al`Sisi needs to issue a pardon. He could release them and
:11:35. > :11:45.try to rectify his damaged image on the West. In any case, they should
:11:46. > :11:52.come to a resolution before the end of the year. I don't see the US
:11:53. > :11:59.resuming its economic aid, those journalists still in by Christmas.
:12:00. > :12:05.They have been imprisoned for nearly a year without any justification. Do
:12:06. > :12:12.you think in the bigger picture this points up that old bike occasion in
:12:13. > :12:16.the Arab world you have a strong dictator or you have Islamists,
:12:17. > :12:22.there is nothing in between, that is what we thought the Arab Springwood
:12:23. > :12:26.change. It hasn't. There is change but for the worse. If you see the
:12:27. > :12:33.outcome of the Arab Spring, Libya is a failed state and a lot of deaths
:12:34. > :12:37.and problems. In Syria, there is a civil war, the same in Iraqi.
:12:38. > :12:46.Actually, it was completely counter`productive, because people
:12:47. > :12:49.are not experienced and coexistence between those people and tribes,
:12:50. > :12:54.they don't understand the Middle East. You have tribal divisions,
:12:55. > :12:59.sectarian divisions and cultural divisions. You have ethnic
:13:00. > :13:05.divisions. It is like a Pandora?s box. When you open it, it is
:13:06. > :13:10.difficult to control. We can understand that in Europe with
:13:11. > :13:14.Yugoslavia, it was held down by dictatorship and everybody said
:13:15. > :13:18.wasn't it a great success but the moment the dictatorship was removed,
:13:19. > :13:23.all of the old ethnic rivalries led to a bloody civil war. It isn't just
:13:24. > :13:25.an Arab problem. It is a bloody civil war. It isn't just an Arab
:13:26. > :13:29.problem. It is opposed dictatorship problem. We hope to democracy would
:13:30. > :13:35.prevail and we hope there will be anti`corruption Moves, a proper
:13:36. > :13:43.governance in our part of the world but it didn't work. Many people are
:13:44. > :13:47.changing their position, they say we should reform these dictatorships
:13:48. > :13:52.because most of them were ageing dictatorships, step`by`step and
:13:53. > :13:58.after that maybe we will have two keep the countries in tact and keep
:13:59. > :14:03.people coexisting with each other. 200,000 people killed in Syria... Is
:14:04. > :14:07.there a problem with the Borders, these countries were never drawn in
:14:08. > :14:14.a way that was coherent? Yes, this is the problem. By the British and
:14:15. > :14:21.French. Artificial borders, no question about it because it was
:14:22. > :14:28.mandated and the Ottoman Empire and the border was drawn after World War
:14:29. > :14:38.I. The whole thing has changed but even this nation state, it survived
:14:39. > :14:43.for 100 years. Now, the problem is we have tribal states, sectarian
:14:44. > :14:49.states which is worse than the agreements. You are writing a book
:14:50. > :14:56.on ISIS, do you think the threat of ISIS is so severe, it has created
:14:57. > :15:02.unlikely allies, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the USA, will it change
:15:03. > :15:09.things and result in more dictatorships? It could be, it could
:15:10. > :15:13.be more brutal. This is the problem. ISIS managed to change the whole
:15:14. > :15:23.scene in the Middle East in a few days. They controlled a huge area. A
:15:24. > :15:37.chunk of Barack and Syria, it never happened before. So, the side that
:15:38. > :15:41.it was unbelievable `` Iraq's. They left their weapons and headquarters
:15:42. > :15:53.and they ran away. They are using the same style of President George
:15:54. > :15:55.Bush junior and senior. It is becoming bloody, executing and
:15:56. > :16:10.shooting people to frighten everybody. But then they move on, so
:16:11. > :16:13.are they a durable force? Once they move on, especially if the
:16:14. > :16:15.government were to collapse, how much support would be up so would be
:16:16. > :16:27.be able to maintain or administer? People in the Middle East want
:16:28. > :16:34.stability first, but after that, what can they do? What can civilians
:16:35. > :16:38.do in front of those people? If you make any mistakes, if you still
:16:39. > :16:45.money, they flock people simply because they were listening to
:16:46. > :16:51.music? How powerful IG predicting a new book that Isis are going to
:16:52. > :17:00.become? They are taking over from Al`Qaeda. They have a huge support
:17:01. > :17:05.in certain Arab countries. This is the problem, those young, hot`headed
:17:06. > :17:13.chaps from Britain, from brands, from everywhere. This is the
:17:14. > :17:22.danger. They have money. They have $2 billion. They put their hands on
:17:23. > :17:28.$500 million. Once you have money, you can recruit people. Once you
:17:29. > :17:33.have weapons, they are self`sufficient. They have money and
:17:34. > :17:38.weapons and a lot of recruits. Many people are joining them now. So this
:17:39. > :17:45.is the danger. They are in the Middle East, there are not in
:17:46. > :17:49.Afghanistan. They control the border crossing between Iraq and Syria,
:17:50. > :18:08.between Jordan and Iraq and now they're very close to the Saudi
:18:09. > :18:16.border with Jordan. They are ruthless, brittle organisations.
:18:17. > :18:20.The former editor of the News of the World newspaper Andy Coulson was
:18:21. > :18:22.famously given a second chance by Prime Minister David Cameron when Mr
:18:23. > :18:25.Cameron appointed Coulson to run his communications operation in Downing
:18:26. > :18:27.Street. Now Mr Coulson faces possibly years in jail after being
:18:28. > :18:30.found guilty of phone hacking and other charges to produce stories for
:18:31. > :18:39.his newspaper. What is the lasting damage ` if any ` for the British
:18:40. > :18:46.People buy the press, but in decreasing numbers. It is not
:18:47. > :18:52.entirely loved. The British press, right click, has an appalling
:18:53. > :18:57.reputation. Our tabloid press is notorious around the world, mostly
:18:58. > :19:00.because of the arrival of Rupert Murdoch, who arrived in Britain and
:19:01. > :19:08.made our press considerably worse and more vicious. He then drag the
:19:09. > :19:13.others in his tail. People's expectations of the press were
:19:14. > :19:18.already very low. Even so, this trial should they manage to get even
:19:19. > :19:25.further below that expectation. The real story is Cameron taking one of
:19:26. > :19:30.these editors from the very worst newspaper and putting Rupert
:19:31. > :19:33.Murdoch's man right in the very heart of his own operation in
:19:34. > :19:39.Downing Street. All political parties suck up to Rupert Murdoch in
:19:40. > :19:44.a disgusting way, but this was quite unique, to make this man head of
:19:45. > :19:54.operations, put mad at right there. That is the only reason he chose
:19:55. > :20:00.Coulson. It was about murder, not the wording class. `` working
:20:01. > :20:06.class. It was to make sure that Rupert Murdoch and Rebecca looks
:20:07. > :20:10.were all tied into his operation. Every Prime Minister in Britain
:20:11. > :20:14.think they can't win without them. John Major says he knew he had had
:20:15. > :20:21.at the moment Rupert Murdoch turned against him. Pauly said what some
:20:22. > :20:26.people think about the British press. On the other hand, British
:20:27. > :20:31.press has exposed a fee for corruption, all kinds of stories. As
:20:32. > :20:38.you know, some of these stories in France get buried for years. Of
:20:39. > :20:44.course the balance of power between the press and the government. In a
:20:45. > :20:51.democracy, where do you strike the balance? In Britain, it has gone to
:20:52. > :21:00.an extreme situation where the whole political class fears the press. So
:21:01. > :21:05.in France you could argue that it is the opposite, that journalists are
:21:06. > :21:11.not as publishers as they should be against their political class, but
:21:12. > :21:22.what do you want? Actually, it is nice to see this case in particular
:21:23. > :21:27.reformatting the press. It is true that the British press managed to
:21:28. > :21:31.expose corruption and other things, but the Hack 700 forums invade the
:21:32. > :21:37.privacy of people and do what they have done, it is very scandalous.
:21:38. > :21:44.But the story is produced as a result of that were mostly rubbish.
:21:45. > :21:51.I may be wrong. Celebrity rubbish. Celebrity rubbish. Maybe it
:21:52. > :21:55.increased circulation of it, but what is the value of these stories?
:21:56. > :22:02.Why should they go that far, commit these crimes? Where you are wrong is
:22:03. > :22:05.to say it has been badly damaged. Because Rupert Murdoch separated his
:22:06. > :22:10.newspaper bit from the rest of his empire, he has been an enormous
:22:11. > :22:15.commercial success. He has made far more money since the hacking trial
:22:16. > :22:22.than before. He's looking triumphant. His woman Rebecca Brooks
:22:23. > :22:26.has been let off, amazingly. He is triumphant again. He is back in the
:22:27. > :22:31.saddle, politicians are as frightened of him as ever. The jury
:22:32. > :22:38.absolutely found Rebecca Brooks was not guilty of any of the offences.
:22:39. > :22:47.Does it all end here? You cannot gainsay the jury on that, so that is
:22:48. > :22:50.over. With Coulson, there are still some legs for that to run when the
:22:51. > :22:55.election comes around. But I still wonder how much of this really
:22:56. > :22:59.resonates with the British public. When Cameron comes up for
:23:00. > :23:06.re`election next year, are they really going to think about Coulson
:23:07. > :23:19.and the hacking trial? So many news outlets have rightfully refused to
:23:20. > :23:29.sign up to regulations. Going back to Polly, you are right, mad made
:23:30. > :23:39.millions, but he lost his position, he is exposed. I think this is a
:23:40. > :23:42.good thing. British politicians will be as desperate to court Embassy now
:23:43. > :23:50.in the next election as ever they were. Look at Ed Miliband having to
:23:51. > :23:55.hold up a copy of the sun. I re`flogging a dead donkey here? It
:23:56. > :24:04.is over for newspapers, isn't it, Wally? ABC all seem to run the
:24:05. > :24:08.political agenda in Britain. I'm afraid the BBC all too often follows
:24:09. > :24:13.a collective use people agenda, despite the fact that our newspapers
:24:14. > :24:18.are 85% owned by very right wing media barons. We still set the
:24:19. > :24:23.political tone in this country, despite the fact that less people
:24:24. > :24:29.buy them. Nobody has any other way of deciding what is the news agenda.
:24:30. > :24:38.Their habits might have changed, the way we consume news, but I heard it
:24:39. > :24:43.for 25 years that the press is moribund, it is going to die, but it
:24:44. > :24:50.isn't. The press and the novel have been dying for a very long time.
:24:51. > :24:52.That's all from us for this week. You can comment on the programme on
:24:53. > :25:28.twitter. Goodbye. It may be clear and sunny where you
:25:29. > :25:29.are now, but