:00:00. > :00:27.Hello, and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:28. > :00:30.Terror warnings about the threat from Al`Qaeda offshoots.
:00:31. > :00:32.The murders of teenage Palestinian and Israeli boys.
:00:33. > :00:34.And the European Court of Human Rights says it is legal
:00:35. > :00:38.for France to ban the full veil known as the niqab.
:00:39. > :00:43.Jeffrey Kofman who is an American writer and broadcaster.
:00:44. > :00:45.Nesrine Malik who's a Sudanese journalist.
:00:46. > :00:55.More threats and potentially more sophisticated
:00:56. > :00:57.bomb plots from Islamic terrorist groups against American, European
:00:58. > :01:05.What do we make of the threat from Al`Qaeda offshoots, and from the
:01:06. > :01:15.lawlessness now in vast areas of Syria, Iraq, Yemen and other places?
:01:16. > :01:25.A big American holiday, a day before, we are told America could be
:01:26. > :01:30.a target. After 9/11 when we had the security
:01:31. > :01:35.alerts in the US, George Bush's colour`coded warning system. You got
:01:36. > :01:40.a sense that this system was being elevated when they needed to
:01:41. > :01:46.galvanise public opinion. I think there is an innate suspicion about
:01:47. > :01:49.these threats. But you can't afford to be cavalier. Because we have seen
:01:50. > :01:56.it happen. What has struck me is I supposed to
:01:57. > :02:03.do about this? Am I supposed to not fly? Everyone says to continue as
:02:04. > :02:10.normal. What are we going to do? Get on board an hour earlier, bring
:02:11. > :02:15.something to read. How do you process this kind of information?
:02:16. > :02:20.How do you question the authorities when they tell us this is real, and
:02:21. > :02:25.how do we know it is not just fear mongering? How do they know? We know
:02:26. > :02:32.there is a threat and it is constant. Do we elevate it or is
:02:33. > :02:36.this chatter picked up from Yemen? The root of all this is that there
:02:37. > :02:41.are areas of the world which are outside the control of any kind of
:02:42. > :02:46.Government, which seem to be expanding. We have seen the threat
:02:47. > :02:49.from Isis. Some groups are technologically becoming more
:02:50. > :02:53.sophisticated with the kinds of expenses they are using. There is
:02:54. > :02:58.clearly a real threat. Again, what are we supposed to do?
:02:59. > :03:07.I would agree. There is a real threat, but it is diffused, and not
:03:08. > :03:13.easily pinpointed. The one person being talked about is the Saudi
:03:14. > :03:17.bomber turned into a James Bond type figure, thought to be creating more
:03:18. > :03:23.innovative ways to insert bombs into people, stitch them into bodies, his
:03:24. > :03:26.bombers in one of the most deadly bombers in one of the most deadly
:03:27. > :03:34.attacks in Saudi Arabia. OK, you have a name. But if you dig
:03:35. > :03:42.deeper, there is very little connection between this suspect, and
:03:43. > :03:50.any kind of threat crossing that. He is a Saudi. Crossing into Yemen,
:03:51. > :03:52.then being brought back to Europe via passport holders, it is quite a
:03:53. > :03:56.long line of association between long line of association between
:03:57. > :04:02.that and him. The point about who do you trust?
:04:03. > :04:07.When I read about him, I thought, is this the enemy of the week club? It
:04:08. > :04:12.is a huge problem but a diffuse problem, of nameless people we have
:04:13. > :04:18.never heard of, perhaps people who are British who have gone to this
:04:19. > :04:25.region. To personalise it with one person seems beside the point.
:04:26. > :04:31.It gets the story in the newspapers and in the UK in particular, you get
:04:32. > :04:36.some momentum behind the Government stance that there is increasing but
:04:37. > :04:40.accreditation when people go to fight in Syria. Which I have always
:04:41. > :04:46.found unconvincing. When you get three people saying we won't return
:04:47. > :04:49.to the UK until the black flag of Islam is flying over Downing Street.
:04:50. > :04:52.men are going to fight not men are going to fight not
:04:53. > :04:56.associated groups but with other associated groups but with other
:04:57. > :05:02.rebel groups, and there are others, particularly in Syria. And I think
:05:03. > :05:06.that has never been convincing to me that there is this increased threat
:05:07. > :05:13.to the UK because of a handful of fighters who have gone overseas. But
:05:14. > :05:19.this gives it far more legitimacy. This latest warning is coming from
:05:20. > :05:26.the US saying if you guys `` saying you have to tighten up your security
:05:27. > :05:32.at airports. 500 young jihadists from Britain
:05:33. > :05:38.currently fighting in Syria, it evokes fears. At the same time,
:05:39. > :05:45.these terror alerts mean people do feel, what is going on? It is a
:05:46. > :05:49.diffused feeling. And what is happening on social media is scary.
:05:50. > :05:56.You see these young guys, terrorist groups, using social media so well.
:05:57. > :06:01.They are making headlines. Flying the black flag over Whitehall. They
:06:02. > :06:06.are working with headlines as much as governments are doing it.
:06:07. > :06:13.Not just an information war but a story telling war. Yes, this is
:06:14. > :06:20.attractive to young men. Donald? I have nothing original to
:06:21. > :06:26.add to the very good things which have been said. We should not
:06:27. > :06:31.forget, I hesitate to say the number one problem in the world, but the
:06:32. > :06:44.problem at the moment is fundamentally in the rock. This is a
:06:45. > :06:54.very diffused picture `` Iraq. What is certainly there is a crisis with
:06:55. > :06:58.global implications. Isis itself, is it going to break away from
:06:59. > :07:02.Al`Qaeda? This is a monolithic picture.
:07:03. > :07:07.It is not easy to say. Do you have any thoughts as to why some young
:07:08. > :07:14.British or French people go to these areas? Clearly there are some people
:07:15. > :07:18.who want to work for charities. Do you have any idea what is the
:07:19. > :07:25.trigger to radicalisation? Some people say it is Western foreign
:07:26. > :07:31.policy, or distaste for the Western way of life, women go to nightclubs,
:07:32. > :07:36.pubs. It is a condemnation of those
:07:37. > :07:44.things. Primarily, it is a sense of marginalisation within the UK. A lot
:07:45. > :07:54.of grievances. You have to realise there are also ethnic minorities
:07:55. > :08:02.which become associated with religion.
:08:03. > :08:05.The third thing which I think is very important in terms of why
:08:06. > :08:12.people go to these countries, and by these groups are developing, is
:08:13. > :08:16.because of a strong narrative. The secular bubbles and actually
:08:17. > :08:22.governments, foreign policy in the West, has failed to create a
:08:23. > :08:25.narrative that fails to poke `` fails to oppose the one`man
:08:26. > :08:30.dictator. These young guys from Britain, they
:08:31. > :08:35.have a sense of purpose. It was an arrogant video. That came through to
:08:36. > :08:41.me. The point about being marginalised.
:08:42. > :08:48.One of these guys had an offer from four British universities to Saudi
:08:49. > :08:52.medicine `` study. I am not sure they are marginalised. They could
:08:53. > :08:57.make their life very well in the UK. Talking to the former head of MI5
:08:58. > :09:01.who said the important thing is this is not mindless terrorism, it may be
:09:02. > :09:07.horrific, but a lot of these people are well`qualified and smart.
:09:08. > :09:15.As someone who moved here four years ago, there is an inherent Islam
:09:16. > :09:21.phobia in the media. Whether you are educated not as a young Muslim man,
:09:22. > :09:25.you that. We'll be hearing later about the banning of the niqab in
:09:26. > :09:31.France. It is interrelated. We are not full members of European society
:09:32. > :09:39.which leads to disenfranchisement. That is definitely Shoe `` true.
:09:40. > :09:46.There is a contradiction here. Specifically, the Government worries
:09:47. > :09:59.about young people going to Syria to fight. This isn't like Iraq. The
:10:00. > :10:05.West wanted to get rid of Assad. I am not clear that these people are
:10:06. > :10:09.necessarily going to come back and become terrorists in the UK.
:10:10. > :10:30.People have different motivations in different places.
:10:31. > :10:32.There is a report the UK Government had intelligence which showed some
:10:33. > :10:38.hypocrisy... Hypocrisy, I am shocked!
:10:39. > :10:41.The biblical law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
:10:42. > :10:43.And yet the apparently endless struggle between Israelis
:10:44. > :10:45.and Palestinians took on a particularly horrific character this
:10:46. > :10:48.week, with the murder of teenage boys, plus rocket attacks from the
:10:49. > :10:50.Palestinians, and bombing raids and repression from the
:10:51. > :10:53.Israelis. Is there really no end to the cycle of attacks, reprisals,
:10:54. > :11:04.You covered this for ages. It comes back and comes back.
:11:05. > :11:12.That is a point worth making. At a time when media took their eye off
:11:13. > :11:20.the Israeli`Palestinian issue. People were talking about the Arab
:11:21. > :11:23.Spring. It always comes back. It is still the central problem for the
:11:24. > :11:28.Middle East. This is obviously a much tense
:11:29. > :11:36.period than at any time since the end of the second intifada. And you
:11:37. > :11:41.see some of these aspects of cycles of vengeance and retaliation.
:11:42. > :11:47.Because so much of the so`called peace process has been really shown
:11:48. > :11:52.to be so futile, I am surprised to find myself saying that, actually,
:11:53. > :11:56.it is a pity at the moment that there is nothing going on
:11:57. > :12:00.diplomatically, because I think that adds to this feeling that the
:12:01. > :12:08.tension may explode into something much worse. But what the immediate
:12:09. > :12:15.answer is, it looks very much as if Hamas, who have been blamed with not
:12:16. > :12:20.absolutely convincing public evidence for the appalling killing
:12:21. > :12:25.of these three teenage boys, certainly do not want a full scale
:12:26. > :12:29.connotation in Gaza. One hopes Israel doesn't either because it is
:12:30. > :12:33.not in their interest. What you make of the Palestinian
:12:34. > :12:43.argument which goes, this is the longest occupation in modern times,
:12:44. > :12:50.it will keep happening. This is the core of the problem.
:12:51. > :12:54.Rightly, I think, we blame Israel for being resistant to that analysis
:12:55. > :13:01.which is very hard to contradict. I also think the US and European
:13:02. > :13:05.powers also to some extent share some of the blame for this. In that
:13:06. > :13:12.they have still been reluctant, I think, to apply more pressure on
:13:13. > :13:19.Israel. For example, to negotiate seriously and productively with
:13:20. > :13:24.easily the most moderate and violence eschewing posting a leader
:13:25. > :13:28.we have had or may ever have again. That said, Stephanie, the Israeli
:13:29. > :13:33.argument is, if that is true, they should not be in bed with Hamas, we
:13:34. > :13:36.cannot deal with a comment of which Hamas is a part.
:13:37. > :13:41.You have to see the wider context, what is happening in Syria and in
:13:42. > :13:50.this region. It is a polarised society in Israel. If you look at
:13:51. > :13:56.the central media, there were amazing appeals from Israeli people
:13:57. > :14:01.saying things like, Patriots against Arabs is not racism. In a situation
:14:02. > :14:05.which is very tense already. The Israeli Government is explicit of
:14:06. > :14:11.how to deal with the situation. Can I pick up your point briefly. It
:14:12. > :14:15.is true that Israelis are very unhappy about the coalition with
:14:16. > :14:23.Hamas. The fact is they weren't doing very much serious negotiation
:14:24. > :14:27.while there was no relationship. We should not forget about that.
:14:28. > :14:35.What has happened over the past week, in my lifetime, has not
:14:36. > :14:39.happened before in a sense that it has concentrated the fears of both
:14:40. > :14:44.communities. You see bombings and assaults but the kidnapping of
:14:45. > :14:48.children I think has tapped into something really visible in the Arab
:14:49. > :14:53.committee and Israeli community. There is a good article in the
:14:54. > :15:02.Guardian about how the kidnapping of these boys and young soldiers brings
:15:03. > :15:06.up the ghosts of the affair that Jews will be spirited away in the
:15:07. > :15:09.middle of the night. That unleashes a genie that even the Israeli
:15:10. > :15:16.Government cannot control. There is a view outside of Israel that the
:15:17. > :15:20.Israeli Government is more hard line that its people. It's people love
:15:21. > :15:26.peace and bond negotiation. The garment is run by right wing
:15:27. > :15:29.scaremongers. In this case, there has been a visceral Jewish fear that
:15:30. > :15:45.has bubbled up in society. for your children, you question
:15:46. > :15:48.everything. Exactly. Even though that may be flanking the Israeli
:15:49. > :15:51.government in terms of its attitude, it will ultimately question the
:15:52. > :15:56.Israeli government position on settlement. People are asking what
:15:57. > :16:04.the hell three boys were doing hiking in the middle of the night.
:16:05. > :16:08.Even if there is a peace process, these the `` these two things
:16:09. > :16:13.rubbing together will have a tender effect. Donald made the point that
:16:14. > :16:19.this is the central conflict around which so much rests in the Middle
:16:20. > :16:25.East. I think what is very frightening about the kidnapping and
:16:26. > :16:30.the murder is that you do not need to have a vast organisation to do
:16:31. > :16:35.this. One loose cannon, one idiot on either side can do this to the next
:16:36. > :16:41.teenage boy and simply inflame passions more. That is what is very
:16:42. > :16:49.frightening. It may not be Hamas. It may be some vigilantes. And yet they
:16:50. > :16:54.now know that they have the leverage to ramp up the tensions and
:16:55. > :16:57.potentially create something. If we see this happen again on one side or
:16:58. > :17:02.the other in the next week or two, it is frightening to think what
:17:03. > :17:08.could happen. That has always been a problem. Both sides have been
:17:09. > :17:13.trapped by the atrocities. There will always be people who do not
:17:14. > :17:18.want peace. They want to win. That means perhaps more kids being
:17:19. > :17:24.killed. You know, I think what we were just talking about, only in
:17:25. > :17:30.extreme fringe on both sides want to see an intifada. The challenge for
:17:31. > :17:33.the leaders on both sides is to somehow navigate what has happened
:17:34. > :17:38.and what is going to happen and not see this explode. A decision by the
:17:39. > :17:43.European Court of Human Rights to a poll difference law banning the
:17:44. > :17:47.niqab adopted by a minority of Muslims in, was quite clear this was
:17:48. > :17:51.not an issue of freedom of expression or religion. It is about
:17:52. > :17:55.the French state taking a view on people who hid their identities.
:17:56. > :18:03.What do we make of this decision and could result in bands in other
:18:04. > :18:16.countries? In terms of this ban, how do you view that? I really wish
:18:17. > :18:20.people spent as much time as they do on the burka, on immigration. There
:18:21. > :18:25.is so much attention paid to this topic. It is completely
:18:26. > :18:31.disproportionate. And hence I think linked to not security measures but
:18:32. > :18:36.an anti immigration and anti`Islam view in Europe. Not always. I think
:18:37. > :18:40.there are legitimate concerns about identity and being able to show your
:18:41. > :18:46.face. But I think the disproportionate focus and political
:18:47. > :18:53.machine that always seems to be working in France... This suggests
:18:54. > :18:57.this is that governments can show they are strong on immigration. The
:18:58. > :19:06.burka is the easiest way to do it do it because it is visible, it is
:19:07. > :19:18.there. It is easy to hide concerns, or`Islamic `` Islamophobia
:19:19. > :19:21.conditions. Governments have been using the burka as a proxy for
:19:22. > :19:26.posturing on immigration. I completely agree. What is diffident
:19:27. > :19:30.about this issue is that on an intellectual level you can argue for
:19:31. > :19:37.freedom of religion on one side and for the rights of women and social
:19:38. > :19:41.cohesion on another. I think it has become a lightning rod for the Islam
:19:42. > :19:45.phobia we talked about earlier. I think you are going to see that here
:19:46. > :19:50.in the UK there are no laws. UKIP have suggested it would be a good
:19:51. > :19:55.idea. If you look at the newspapers. Today people are calling for it. Now
:19:56. > :20:00.the European Court giving a sanction to the French law simply unleashes
:20:01. > :20:04.this. We saw in the Netherlands and Denmark that people pushing for this
:20:05. > :20:09.are not talking about higher values. They are anti immigrant, anti`Muslim
:20:10. > :20:15.people. It is not only in France, of course, but also in Belgium. I lived
:20:16. > :20:20.in Belgium when it was banned. The headlines were amazing. There were a
:20:21. > :20:25.handful of women targeted. A very small minority within a minority
:20:26. > :20:32.community. Absolutely. What is happening now in Germany, Austria
:20:33. > :20:35.and Switzerland are right`wing nationalist parties going out saying
:20:36. > :20:39.they wanted to. The Swiss National party has said they would have a
:20:40. > :20:45.referendum next work `` next year. It is quite likely you will see this
:20:46. > :20:51.all over Europe. I agree with most of what has been said. Two things
:20:52. > :20:55.struck me about this. One is that it is an odd thing for people in
:20:56. > :21:01.Britain who are also very agitated about the niqab that the European
:21:02. > :21:07.Court of Human Rights, which most sane people absolutely hate, has
:21:08. > :21:20.vindicated this decision. The other thing I think is exactly that. If
:21:21. > :21:23.Western Liberal Democrat values are forced upon the British residential
:21:24. > :21:29.population, I would much rather be concerned with things like forced
:21:30. > :21:37.marriages, female genital mutilation, than this thing. The
:21:38. > :21:44.main thing is that it is so visible. It is a very easy thing to show your
:21:45. > :21:47.credentials on immigration. To play devil's Advocate, it is also a
:21:48. > :21:53.symbol of people who have no desire to fit in with the broad cultural
:21:54. > :22:00.norms of society. That is part of the problem, isn't it? I understand
:22:01. > :22:05.it `` as I understand it, the particular woman in France who
:22:06. > :22:08.brought the original case, which the European Court of Human Rights have
:22:09. > :22:15.rejected, said she did not want to wear it all the time. She was
:22:16. > :22:23.willing to take it off when going to see a doctor or in the court. That
:22:24. > :22:27.does not bother me. I guess maybe I'm just not so moved by this
:22:28. > :22:35.question. I don't find it so offensive. There was an argument
:22:36. > :22:39.when there were anti`Semitic attacks in the early 20th century in the UK
:22:40. > :22:44.that Jews were visible. They worst goal caps, especially the more
:22:45. > :22:50.Conservative ones. `` they wore skullcaps. They began to secularise
:22:51. > :22:55.themselves appearance was because they felt they were easy to target.
:22:56. > :23:02.Jews still, in areas in London, live like that. There are quite a few
:23:03. > :23:10.anti`Semitic attacks. There is not a general anti`Semitism in the water
:23:11. > :23:17.as there is Islamophobia. That is an interesting point. There are a lot
:23:18. > :23:19.of parallels between anti`Semitism historically and Islamophobia. The
:23:20. > :23:24.perceived threat of a particular minority. What can we do about it?
:23:25. > :23:29.The results of that our alienation and the results of that out that the
:23:30. > :23:33.minority will go off to fight in Syria, it is a problem for all of
:23:34. > :23:38.us. Not just a problem for the Muslim community. Absolutely. It is
:23:39. > :23:43.a problem for mainstream society. It is something politicians have been
:23:44. > :23:50.quite craven on. Quite cowardly. They have played to the gallery.
:23:51. > :23:54.Especially with UKIP rising. I think it is something that the media is
:23:55. > :23:58.responsible for because they were amplified. The politicians are
:23:59. > :24:03.responsible for because it is an easy win. It is everybody's
:24:04. > :24:11.responsibility to stand back and say, it is literally a handful of
:24:12. > :24:16.women. And also, who is harmed by it? Is anybody harmed by it? They
:24:17. > :24:21.claim to help those women, that they can live a free life. What is the
:24:22. > :24:30.result? Women will stay at home. They will not go out at all. When
:24:31. > :24:36.Jacques Chirac, a decade ago, introduced a ban on headscarves, I
:24:37. > :24:42.remember thinking it was really odd. The EU was saying to Turkey that
:24:43. > :24:46.having a headscarf, being able to wear a headscarf in highly secular
:24:47. > :24:55.Turkey, is a symbol of freedom of expression. There is another
:24:56. > :24:59.contradiction. Think it is no coincidence that the three topics we
:25:00. > :25:07.have addressed to day, when we talk about Iraq and terrorism at the
:25:08. > :25:11.airports, the Israeli Arab conflict, and we talk about this, the variety
:25:12. > :25:15.challenge of time is figuring out a way for Western culture and Islamic
:25:16. > :25:21.to live, to coexist without conflict. All three of these topics
:25:22. > :25:25.ultimately come down to that. Thank you all very much. That is it for
:25:26. > :25:30.dateline London this week. We're back next week at the same time.
:25:31. > :25:32.Join us then. You can comment on the programme on Twitter. Thank you for
:25:33. > :26:02.watching and goodbye. Hello. After a soggy start to the
:26:03. > :26:03.day in