:00:34. > :00:39.does the world reacted to the shooting down of the Malaysia
:00:40. > :00:50.Airlines plane? Israel and its battle in Gaza. And we are left to
:00:51. > :01:03.digests the Cabinet reshuffle. These are my guests.
:01:04. > :01:15.Welcome to all of you. Let's start with the horrific downing of the
:01:16. > :01:20.Malaysia Airlines plane in which 298 people lost their lives. How could
:01:21. > :01:24.this have happened? There are options, and all of these options
:01:25. > :01:29.should not be written off at this stage, but it seems they have been.
:01:30. > :01:36.It seems the culprit has been named and fingers pointed, and I think
:01:37. > :01:43.that is not a very wise way to go about the situation of something so
:01:44. > :01:49.sensitive and tragic. Are you saying that is not what happened? I don't
:01:50. > :01:53.know. I don't seem to have the confidence that other people seem to
:01:54. > :01:57.have, including President Obama, coming out and saying that it is the
:01:58. > :02:02.Russian rebels, but we will mount an investigation. Maybe the
:02:03. > :02:05.investigation should come first. With the evidence pointing towards
:02:06. > :02:12.the rebel, what would your thoughts be? It is not inconceivable that it
:02:13. > :02:18.was them, but it is not inconceivable either that it might
:02:19. > :02:24.have been a Ukrainian Buk missile. We know that in 2001 a Russian
:02:25. > :02:32.passenger plane was brought down by mistake by Ukrainian anti`aircraft
:02:33. > :02:36.defence. These things do happen. The most recent two planes that have
:02:37. > :02:41.been brought down have been Ukrainian military transport
:02:42. > :02:45.carriers, and presumably this was mistaken for a military transport
:02:46. > :02:53.carrier from Ukraine. Why should Ukraine shoot down its own plane
:02:54. > :02:57.even by mistake? These are preposterous allegations, desperate
:02:58. > :03:05.allegations coming out of Moscow. The idea that we got dumbfounded
:03:06. > :03:13.silence from most world leaders for the first day because it was just an
:03:14. > :03:17.astonishing event and the diplomatic results are so serious, and the only
:03:18. > :03:22.comment we got was a babble of hysterical accusations on Moscow. On
:03:23. > :03:29.the one hand they were saying this was done by the Ukrainians, and even
:03:30. > :03:33.if it was not done by the Ukrainians, they have responsibility
:03:34. > :03:36.because it happened in their airspace. I thought the whole
:03:37. > :03:43.dispute was about who is a space it should be. Does this part of Ukraine
:03:44. > :03:48.belong to Russia or if it is a plain that goes down there it is the
:03:49. > :03:52.responsibility of Ukraine. It is very well the Kremlin is criticising
:03:53. > :04:00.those who point fingers but they are doing the same to Ukraine. They say
:04:01. > :04:05.Ukraine is responsible for what is happening in the territory, which is
:04:06. > :04:10.audacious when this part is controlled by pro`Russian
:04:11. > :04:15.separatists. The frightening thing is that there was the capability.
:04:16. > :04:20.Absolutely. What is really worrying is we are at the stage where
:04:21. > :04:23.everybody is pointing fingers. You saw the security council meeting
:04:24. > :04:27.when you had the ambassadors facing off. This is a risk to all of us.
:04:28. > :04:32.This is a time when you say, where is the international leadership? We
:04:33. > :04:37.need to stop and allowed the investigation to happen. Where is
:04:38. > :04:41.Russia's leveraged on the separatists, telling them it is
:04:42. > :04:47.their responsibility to protect the area. Surely they want to protect
:04:48. > :04:52.the result. They would surely put pressure on the separatists not to
:04:53. > :04:58.block the investigation. Does President Putin have any leveraged
:04:59. > :05:04.at all with these separatists? He has some. He urged them not to hold
:05:05. > :05:09.the referenda on independence, they did not listen. The statement that
:05:10. > :05:15.came out of Moscow was not pointing the finger at Kiev in terms of it
:05:16. > :05:20.being them that shocked the missile, the statement was that they bear
:05:21. > :05:25.responsibility for the military action that has taken place in the
:05:26. > :05:34.area, and Russia has been campaigning for weeks for cease`fire
:05:35. > :05:39.there. But we know the Russians supplied sophisticated military
:05:40. > :05:44.technology to a bunch of trigger`happy cowboys they cannot
:05:45. > :05:50.control. Do we know that? Do they not admit to that? I have not seen
:05:51. > :05:55.that. They are playing a double game. They are giving the impression
:05:56. > :05:59.they are watching their hands of any claim to eastern Ukraine but at the
:06:00. > :06:04.same time they are encouraging the rebels to hold key positions and
:06:05. > :06:08.desert other positions in order to assert control over this part of
:06:09. > :06:14.Ukraine. Will this be a game changer in the eyes of the world? What will
:06:15. > :06:17.it change? It is a game changer because everybody realises now the
:06:18. > :06:23.stakes and the idea you cannot brush it off and say, if Russia has
:06:24. > :06:27.eastern Ukraine, we will come to an accommodation. There can be no
:06:28. > :06:32.accommodation because of the escalation. In terms of the impact,
:06:33. > :06:36.it cannot be just about imposing new sanctions, it has to be thinking
:06:37. > :06:39.about the fact that all over the world there are militants wetting
:06:40. > :06:47.their hands on extremely sophisticated weaponry, at a pace
:06:48. > :06:56.that states cannot control `` getting their hands. You have to ask
:06:57. > :07:01.the question about Moscow's stated intention, which is this claim on
:07:02. > :07:07.eastern Ukraine, I know you will hate me saying this but this is not
:07:08. > :07:12.unlike the German claim on the Sudetenland. These ethnic Russians
:07:13. > :07:17.want to be part of their homeland and we are going in. It has to be
:07:18. > :07:23.taken into account. Wherever the so`called international community,
:07:24. > :07:29.although I would refer to it as an international community, has been
:07:30. > :07:35.meddling, we have had one disaster after another, starting with
:07:36. > :07:44.Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya, aged. `` aged. Roger tried to invade
:07:45. > :07:50.Afghanistan as well, I remember. We should not remember that `` not
:07:51. > :07:57.forget the weakness in the White House has played a role in what is
:07:58. > :08:04.happening. It started with Syria, the line was crossed, and President
:08:05. > :08:07.Obama refrained from intervening. Giving such clout to President Putin
:08:08. > :08:12.led to what is happening in the Ukraine. What about the flight path
:08:13. > :08:24.of that plane? Given that some airlines had decided... British
:08:25. > :08:30.Airways. Theoretically they were not doing anything wrong, but what do
:08:31. > :08:35.you think of that? For so many airlines, cost is the number one
:08:36. > :08:42.driver. If you rewrote, it is a longer flight. `` the route. If you
:08:43. > :08:47.know there is a possibility, what do you do? Then again, we have planes
:08:48. > :08:57.going over all sorts of areas, Iraq, Libya. It should not be left to the
:08:58. > :09:04.airlines to decide. The aviation authority should have told airlines
:09:05. > :09:08.not to fly over. The irony is Malaysia Airlines is probably going
:09:09. > :09:14.to go out of business. It is not a very clever business plan in terms
:09:15. > :09:19.of saving money. I know that British Airways and the Russian airlines
:09:20. > :09:29.have not been flying over that area. And they know why. Let's leave
:09:30. > :09:34.that discussion there and move on to the next topic, which is the battle
:09:35. > :09:37.between is the battle between Israeli ground forces and
:09:38. > :09:42.Palestinian militants, raging on. Hundreds of people are now dead.
:09:43. > :09:46.Cease`fires have been called from everywhere but still the bombs and
:09:47. > :09:56.rockets fly and peace looks a very long way off. Why does a mass not
:09:57. > :10:01.stop firing? `` Hamas. Because Palestine is occupied. This is
:10:02. > :10:06.bigger than Hamas firing rockets and Israel reacting. The situation
:10:07. > :10:12.before this ground incursion was still dire. In June there was a
:10:13. > :10:20.possibility of a Palestinian government being formed, and Hamas
:10:21. > :10:25.was part of that government, and for a moment, people thought this was
:10:26. > :10:28.possibly a way to get Hamas away from their extremist stands and come
:10:29. > :10:38.into the political full, but of course, that fell apart. Israel was
:10:39. > :10:40.immediately against that government, they wondered what it meant for the
:10:41. > :10:47.Israeli government that absolutely reject that. This is not a battle
:10:48. > :10:54.that is equal between Hamas and Israel. Gaza is being pounded every
:10:55. > :11:02.day, civilians are being killed. That is the point, civilians are
:11:03. > :11:09.being `` suffering. That is the point, they are stuck in Gaza with
:11:10. > :11:13.nowhere to go. We have heard calls for them to be evacuated but where
:11:14. > :11:21.do they go? The idea that this can be solved militarily is impossible.
:11:22. > :11:28.There could be a political solution, there is no military solution but
:11:29. > :11:34.Gaza is now an overcrowded refugee camp. We have to remember that
:11:35. > :11:37.Israel withdrew voluntarily with great political resistance from its
:11:38. > :11:45.own people. They with true at which point, Gaza became a refugee camp
:11:46. > :11:54.which Hamas now controls and which uses as a military base to fire off
:11:55. > :11:59.rockets. How can it be a refugee camp? It is their land. It is a
:12:00. > :12:05.prison. We have to remember how it started. Israel withdrew from Gaza
:12:06. > :12:10.nine years ago, and from the first day, Hamas has turned it into an
:12:11. > :12:16.arsenal and a network of underground tunnel, but remember how it started,
:12:17. > :12:21.whatever happened in the West Bank became a sideshow but it happened
:12:22. > :12:26.that Hamas joined the resistance in the West Bank after the killing of
:12:27. > :12:33.teenagers on both sides in order to seize an opportunity to break the
:12:34. > :12:37.equation. They felt isolated, and they thought by flaring up the
:12:38. > :12:44.situation they could break the deadlock. Israel has offered them
:12:45. > :12:53.things and they have refused to accept. Last year `` last week
:12:54. > :13:00.Israel accepted the Egyptian proposal. Some of them said things,
:13:01. > :13:09.but what choice has been left for Israel if not to retaliate against
:13:10. > :13:15.1700 rockets and missiles? What about the civilians? It is nothing
:13:16. > :13:21.to do with this, it is not proportionate, if Israel did not
:13:22. > :13:29.have the defence system then thousands would be killed, what
:13:30. > :13:32.would we say then? Israel has a responsibility not to be killing
:13:33. > :13:37.civilians indiscriminately. Of course not, but what do they do?
:13:38. > :13:41.Defending Palestinians is not defending Hamas. If you put rocket
:13:42. > :13:46.launchers in civilian neighbourhoods, you're putting your
:13:47. > :13:56.civilians at risk, which does not do. I am hearing the argument about
:13:57. > :14:02.Ukraine and the situation is almost mirrored. Kiev is conducting this
:14:03. > :14:10.military operation against eastern Ukraine, and here we are getting
:14:11. > :14:13.pretty much the same thing. One site employs overwhelming force against
:14:14. > :14:21.the other which has nothing to respond with. The number of
:14:22. > :14:31.missiles, two people killed. This is a joke. But they are able to protect
:14:32. > :14:36.their civilian population. Let us look at the bigger picture. What
:14:37. > :14:42.about the international response? John Kerry, his plans have gone.
:14:43. > :14:49.That was a desperate move because he had the rug pulled out under him on
:14:50. > :14:55.Syria. He had a thunderous position to destabilise President a sad, and
:14:56. > :14:59.at the last moment, President Obama pooled the rug out from him. His
:15:00. > :15:05.only hope was to broker peace between Palestine and Israel. Good
:15:06. > :15:11.luck. That has gone down the plan because it is an impossible
:15:12. > :15:15.situation. The initiative has failed so far and cease`fire does not look
:15:16. > :15:19.on the horizon, and one reason is there are two countries meddling in
:15:20. > :15:29.the Middle East and trying to exert influence on Hamas not to accept any
:15:30. > :15:45.initiative, these are Turkey and Qatar. Qatar is supporting a
:15:46. > :15:50.terrorist organisation. Turkey, led by a half crazy Prime Minister, is
:15:51. > :16:00.also encouraging us not to accept initiative from Cairo. Who does have
:16:01. > :16:06.influence? Influence over what? There is so much politics here. The
:16:07. > :16:10.Palestinians are victims, and a lot of the Israelis are also victims, so
:16:11. > :16:17.we agree with that. However, on the ground, who has influenced to stop
:16:18. > :16:21.the killing? The deaths, the injuries, people will suffer for
:16:22. > :16:31.years. Electricity and water are cut. This idea that you are going to
:16:32. > :16:38.knock on your roof within a minute to leave your house and everything
:16:39. > :16:42.you have, the bigger picture, there needs to be serious international
:16:43. > :16:49.efforts to end this occupation. They have tried, haven't they? America is
:16:50. > :16:53.losing interest. It will become independent in terms of oil
:16:54. > :16:57.production, and it is now washing its hands of the region. This
:16:58. > :17:01.contentious area is no problem as there is any more, which is
:17:02. > :17:05.appalling, because America is the only superpower left with any moral
:17:06. > :17:12.authority. Does President Obama have that will? There is no evidence on
:17:13. > :17:18.the ground of that. I was just wondering half jokingly about when
:17:19. > :17:27.President Putin were coming to resolve the situation as he did in
:17:28. > :17:33.Syria. God help us. The Palestinian authority, they have accepted the
:17:34. > :17:41.Egyptian proposal for a cease`fire, and her mouth again said no. ``
:17:42. > :17:53.Hamas. They are doing their utmost to cause victims. Every time
:17:54. > :18:00.Palestinian civilians... It is a propaganda coup. Israel banned
:18:01. > :18:03.foreign journalists, but this time, they are actually there, and we are
:18:04. > :18:08.actually there, and we're seeing it on our propaganda, it is a reality.
:18:09. > :18:12.I'm not saying it is a lie, but it is useful for Hamas and Fatah there
:18:13. > :18:19.is a great deal of citizens in this game. They say Israel is responsible
:18:20. > :18:26.for shooting down the Malaysia Airlines to distract from the
:18:27. > :18:30.conflict. Let's come back here to the UK. The big news here was David
:18:31. > :18:36.Cameron extensively reshuffle in his cabinet. Some say he now has his
:18:37. > :18:41.dream team for the next general election, but others say the line`up
:18:42. > :18:45.is more Eurosceptic and may herald another step on the road for Britain
:18:46. > :18:52.to withdraw from the European Union. What do you make of it? This could
:18:53. > :18:56.be his string team because it is more Eurosceptic. It is certainly a
:18:57. > :19:07.team that has been devised to win an election. I thought the most
:19:08. > :19:12.annoying thing about it was the importation of all of these women. I
:19:13. > :19:17.don't mind that. We need more women ministers, but it was done so
:19:18. > :19:22.obviously as a publicity stunt, and they were briefed so heavily and a
:19:23. > :19:30.child so heavily that by the time it happens, it was an anti`climax. ``
:19:31. > :19:34.they trailed it so heavily. It looks as if this is all about image, which
:19:35. > :19:43.is wrong with Cameron from the start. What sort of influence you
:19:44. > :19:47.think it will have with these women? I don't think we can insult British
:19:48. > :19:51.intelligence that having more women will make people think it is a more
:19:52. > :19:55.inclusive government, I think the Eurosceptics part is important,
:19:56. > :19:59.because this is an election that Conservatives will fight with UKIP
:20:00. > :20:04.in mind rather than two years ago when they are thinking labour
:20:05. > :20:14.primarily and then the Lib Dems. By Mike it was to fight UKIP. What does
:20:15. > :20:18.Labour do? At the moment, they are trying to save these are our
:20:19. > :20:22.policies. We're not about image. If they are smart about bringing a
:20:23. > :20:29.better policy, voters can see the difference. I do think David Cameron
:20:30. > :20:35.and the Conservatives have realised everything in the press shows they
:20:36. > :20:42.need to have more than just pretty faces. Every reshuffle in politics
:20:43. > :20:49.is a joke. I remember Bazar reshuffles when Margaret Thatcher
:20:50. > :20:54.was Prime Minister. `` bizarre. Then she would chop heads one after the
:20:55. > :20:58.another. The Foreign Minister after the international community has
:20:59. > :21:04.gotten used to him, has been sent home. Then another Defence Minister.
:21:05. > :21:10.What for? The third Defence Minister within four years. I don't see much
:21:11. > :21:14.logic in what is happening except that it is so transparent that David
:21:15. > :21:19.Cameron is preparing a team for the next election in order to win votes.
:21:20. > :21:22.Does that worry other countries in the region that perhaps there is
:21:23. > :21:32.more election focus then is to focus? I don't beget makes much
:21:33. > :21:36.difference to brush off. `` I don't think it makes much difference to
:21:37. > :21:42.brush off. It may be something that Russia might want to look at with
:21:43. > :21:50.interest because if London's relationship with the EU suffers as
:21:51. > :21:56.a result, that may objectively, cynically perhaps, play into
:21:57. > :22:05.Moscow's Cairns. In what we? `` in what we? It made define their
:22:06. > :22:09.interests more clearly. Some are against worsening relationships with
:22:10. > :22:14.Russia, and others are for. There is a radical line and a more
:22:15. > :22:21.constructive line. It is difficult to talk about this at this point. It
:22:22. > :22:27.is very emotional. But there is no way we can isolate one another.
:22:28. > :22:31.Russia has been claiming that Ukraine's flirtation with the EU has
:22:32. > :22:34.caused this trouble, so therefore presumably if people peel off from
:22:35. > :22:39.the EU, including major powers like Britain, Russia would be sympathetic
:22:40. > :22:43.to that idea just on the divide and rule basis, but I do not think that
:22:44. > :22:48.will help, because Britain will be justice and pathetic to the Ukraine
:22:49. > :22:54.out of the EU as it is in it. Do you think Britain is heading out of the
:22:55. > :23:02.EU? That is impossible to say. Foley at? No. I think it will renegotiate
:23:03. > :23:08.some second order status. `` fully out? But not the full political
:23:09. > :23:16.membership. I think that is probably the direction. Scotland may be
:23:17. > :23:21.independent in September. Is Britain out of the EU seen as weak then
:23:22. > :23:27.within the EU? I think it depends where. America have made it clear
:23:28. > :23:36.that the `` UK in the EU is more important is and I lie. `` as an
:23:37. > :23:44.ally. On the other hand, in the Middle East, people look to the UK
:23:45. > :23:53.as the UK rather than part of the EU. It depends where you are talking
:23:54. > :23:56.about, but to raise a point, William Hague living at this moment was not
:23:57. > :24:01.a good thing for the British government. He is a leader in the
:24:02. > :24:03.Commons and will play any full Winchell role within the
:24:04. > :24:07.Conservative Party, but David Cameron will have been well advised
:24:08. > :24:13.to keep him considering he had all the important relationships with all
:24:14. > :24:29.of the shifting sands around us. `` play an influential bowl. `` wall.
:24:30. > :24:37.You don't want it to seem as though it is all hard power. He has been
:24:38. > :24:41.rather introduced in the last few months by political commentators on
:24:42. > :24:45.the Tory side for having no foreign policy. The government has no
:24:46. > :24:52.foreign policy. It is not the former Defence Minister's fault. Nor does
:24:53. > :24:56.the EU. They are all just withdrawing from the world in saying
:24:57. > :25:08.it is domestic squabbles we are all about now. Vinyl floor? `` final
:25:09. > :25:12.thought? There is no way that Russia and the rest of the world or
:25:13. > :25:16.international community can be as Slater from each other. We have to
:25:17. > :25:23.look at this difficult moment and tragic moment and look towards the
:25:24. > :25:28.future. I'm afraid that was the last word, because we are out of time.
:25:29. > :25:33.Thank you. Think you to all of the guests to day. Join me again next
:25:34. > :26:05.week at the same time for more dateline. Goodbye.
:26:06. > :26:12.Let's get you up`to`date with all of this stormy weather. For some
:26:13. > :26:15.others, it was round two of the storms. Some others did not get as
:26:16. > :26:19.many as we had the other night. The warning from the Met Office as far
:26:20. > :26:24.as the intensity of the rain is still very much with us for today.
:26:25. > :26:28.Hot air across France has spawned all of the storms. You can see them
:26:29. > :26:29.drifting out from the south. Another way