:00:23. > :00:27.Hello I am Maxine Mawhinney and welcome to Dateline.
:00:28. > :00:29.This week my guests and I will discuss:
:00:30. > :00:31.The continuing crisis in the Middle East.
:00:32. > :00:36.Sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.
:00:37. > :00:40.And how to cope with that global scourge, female genital mutilation.
:00:41. > :00:45.My guests are Ned Temko, writer and broadcaster,
:00:46. > :00:48.Marc Roche from France's Le Monde, Maria Margaronis from The Nation and
:00:49. > :00:50.Abdel Barri Atwan, a distinguished writer on Arab affairs.
:00:51. > :00:57.Let's start in the Middle East where a fragile ceasfire between Israel
:00:58. > :01:01.and the militants in Gaza is in place, but just for a few hours.
:01:02. > :01:07.You have family still living in Gaza city, can you tell us something
:01:08. > :01:11.about what has happened to them during this last two weeks?
:01:12. > :01:19.It is hell. I have family, brothers, sisters, nephews and
:01:20. > :01:24.nieces. I do not know who is dead and who is alive, I did not have
:01:25. > :01:31.enough sleep for the last two weeks because overtime houses are
:01:32. > :01:34.flattened, bombardment everywhere. The Israelis are bombing Gaza from
:01:35. > :01:42.the sea, from the air and from the ground. Every hour there is a child
:01:43. > :01:45.killed. This is the only war on earth without refugees because the
:01:46. > :01:51.problem is that the borders are seals, people cannot run for their
:01:52. > :01:53.lives. I am really hollered five `` horrified to see the bodies of
:01:54. > :01:58.children everywhere. This cease`fire children everywhere. This cease`fire
:01:59. > :02:03.is to evacuate the people who are still under the rubble. We have
:02:04. > :02:09.about 1000 people killed until now, every hour there is a child killed.
:02:10. > :02:13.Hospitals are full of dead bodies. Also they are full of injured people
:02:14. > :02:18.and there is no medical supplies. The borders are sealed, not enough
:02:19. > :02:25.doctors. The whole of Gaza is a morgue. You cannot tell... There is
:02:26. > :02:31.no safe place at all, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of
:02:32. > :02:37.thousands are completely homeless. You know... Paralysed people. Their
:02:38. > :02:42.house was bombed. A school. United Nations school. People took great
:02:43. > :02:45.future, they thought the flag of the United Nations could protect them
:02:46. > :02:52.from the bombardment. It was bombed. I do not know. It is really hell. I
:02:53. > :02:57.did not sleep for the last two weeks. We have never seen something
:02:58. > :03:06.like this, and why? There is no reason for it. Israel says Hamas, is
:03:07. > :03:12.firing rockets into southern Israel. I will tell you something, the West,
:03:13. > :03:20.and the Israeli consider Hamas, as a terrorist organisation, they did not
:03:21. > :03:25.kill a single Israeli civilian, why, whereas civilised Israel is killing
:03:26. > :03:29.children! We have 250 children, and killed by the Israeli bombardment,
:03:30. > :03:35.imagine Hamas, the terrorist organisation, killing only Israeli
:03:36. > :03:38.soldiers, and Israelis, the civilised, the only democracy in the
:03:39. > :03:43.Middle East are killing children. This is the difference. Hamas
:03:44. > :03:49.missiles did not kill a single Israeli, nobody is talking about the
:03:50. > :03:54.Israeli missiles, the Israelis raids. Against Gaza. Just one
:03:55. > :04:00.minute, Gaza, it is 150 square miles, 2 million people are living
:04:01. > :04:04.there. Even if you throw a stone, you will kill someone. It is the
:04:05. > :04:10.most densely populated area in the world. Imagine shelling from sea and
:04:11. > :04:17.air. What kind... I do not know. I am shocked. We are talking about
:04:18. > :04:21.diplomacy, a lot of diplomacy going around. Will it work, given the
:04:22. > :04:27.relations between the sides, how bad it has become? I cannot hold out a
:04:28. > :04:32.lot of hope for diplomacy and I hope we get a cease`fire because this is
:04:33. > :04:35.catastrophic. Until the underlying issues begin to be solved. I am
:04:36. > :04:42.wondering whether this could begin to be a turning point. Where people
:04:43. > :04:46.begin to see how untenable the situation is, we have talked about
:04:47. > :04:54.war crimes prosecution for Israel from the United Nations which is
:04:55. > :04:57.long do you. `` it is long due. We have the recognition, when you see
:04:58. > :05:01.children killed in hospitals and schools, people begin to recognise,
:05:02. > :05:06.not only that this is appalling and horrifying. But that it is
:05:07. > :05:10.destructive, not only for the people, the Palestinians and Gaza,
:05:11. > :05:15.but also in the end for Israel itself and for the chance of peace,
:05:16. > :05:22.and also Jewish people outside Israel, you cannot live with this
:05:23. > :05:30.kind of... Crime really. Indefinitely. The question for me,
:05:31. > :05:33.will the kid gloves with which Israel has been treated,
:05:34. > :05:39.particularly by the United States which has vetoed United Nations
:05:40. > :05:44.resolutions begin to come off? The diplomacy moves to Paris this
:05:45. > :05:48.weekend. Given that John Kerry has not quite succeeded with what he
:05:49. > :05:55.wanted, is it the role now, the Europeans to take a bigger stand? I
:05:56. > :05:59.think so, I think Europe, proximity with the geography with the Middle
:06:00. > :06:06.East and the case of France, it is very important on the streets,
:06:07. > :06:13.outside Paris, and in the suburbs which have 6 million Muslim, French.
:06:14. > :06:20.Who feel very strongly about what is going on. 500,000 Jewish people. And
:06:21. > :06:26.we have seen in France a lot of problems in the street. And the
:06:27. > :06:30.authorities are very worried. If there is one hope it will be for
:06:31. > :06:35.once Europe, and not a problem of Europe, because they are divided,
:06:36. > :06:45.the British seem to side with Israel, France is quite on the whole
:06:46. > :06:52.neutral. The public opinion is, at the moment, living with
:06:53. > :06:55.Islamophobia. We have seen from the European elections, it pushed
:06:56. > :07:00.government who considered Hamas, a terrorist organisation, more than an
:07:01. > :07:06.Islamic organisation. The government are being careful. Maria mentioned
:07:07. > :07:11.the phrase kid gloves in relation to the way the United States has
:07:12. > :07:15.handled this. We know about the vote situation in the United States. Why
:07:16. > :07:22.would President Obama not come out more strongly? I am not sure we want
:07:23. > :07:26.to go down this road, I do not buy a notion that you imply, that there is
:07:27. > :07:31.some sort of great Jewish lobby. There is a historic affinity and a
:07:32. > :07:38.propensity among Americans who are not Jewish, who may live in the
:07:39. > :07:44.Middle West, if you put in front of them who is a natural ally, the
:07:45. > :07:49.instinctive answer would be to say Israel, it has nothing to do with
:07:50. > :07:54.dark machinations. To get what really matters, the conflict, I
:07:55. > :08:03.would briefly three things. One. We are friends. I don't want to turn
:08:04. > :08:08.this into a proxy conflict. You say by implication poor Hamas, they have
:08:09. > :08:15.not killed any Israeli civilians, which is not true, they have. They
:08:16. > :08:22.have. Again, this is not the issue. It is not for lack of trying. This
:08:23. > :08:24.is not happening in a vacuum. Without taking Israel's side,
:08:25. > :08:30.because I have great misgivings which I will get to, about all sides
:08:31. > :08:34.of the conflict. You have do recognise this is not like
:08:35. > :08:40.Luxembourg and Belgium all of a sudden deciding let's kill
:08:41. > :08:46.civilians... There is a difficult situation and a tough neighbourhood
:08:47. > :08:51.involving an organisation, Hamas, without getting into labels, their
:08:52. > :08:57.charter says they want to destroy the state of Israel, it is not
:08:58. > :09:02.happening in a vacuum. No human being can look at the TV screens as
:09:03. > :09:07.we have for the last 18 days and not be appalled by the depth of the
:09:08. > :09:17.suffering, by what he says is the lack of the ability for ordinarily
:09:18. > :09:21.would`be refugees to run anywhere. If you knew nothing about this
:09:22. > :09:25.conflict, the normal human response which I share and I think is the
:09:26. > :09:31.proper response, is for God sake, stop this. It is horrible. And both
:09:32. > :09:38.sides have a responsibility to do that. The other thing I would say,
:09:39. > :09:41.longer term answers, this is not the first time this has happened. We
:09:42. > :09:48.know where it will end, there will be a cease`fire. But we cannot bring
:09:49. > :09:56.back the 800, maybe 1000 people who have lost their lives. On either
:09:57. > :10:05.side. This is a symptom of terrible abject failure by all sides, over a
:10:06. > :10:10.period of years, to pursue seriously the one negotiated outcome that
:10:11. > :10:16.could just... It just might, and it is tough to be less optimistic over
:10:17. > :10:23.the years, that could provide a long`term solution. That is the
:10:24. > :10:30.secure Israel accepted by its neighbours, living side`by`side with
:10:31. > :10:36.a secure independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, for the
:10:37. > :10:40.Palestinians. On that very strong note we will leave that topic and
:10:41. > :10:41.move on. Thank you for your contributions, it is always
:10:42. > :10:44.difficult. Now let's move to the Ukraine where
:10:45. > :10:47.the situation between Russian separatists and the government
:10:48. > :10:49.in Kiev remains critical and the west particularly US sanctions
:10:50. > :10:52.against Russia begin to bite. Are sanctions against Russia
:10:53. > :11:12.counterproductive and how can Russia Let's say what the Russian... Royal
:11:13. > :11:16.Dutch Shell, it is very close to them in the Arctic, they are from
:11:17. > :11:22.the country where the plane... And you have BP, 20% of the company. You
:11:23. > :11:28.would say the Russian, and you have the French banks and the engineering
:11:29. > :11:32.in German. You would say the Russian have a marvellous reprise all
:11:33. > :11:37.potential. They don't. Because they need the companies investment ``
:11:38. > :11:42.reprisal. To modernise the energy Department. Which is old and it
:11:43. > :11:48.needs investment. The Russians have no arms except the verbal threat.
:11:49. > :11:53.That is why we should not taken seriously, we should apply
:11:54. > :11:56.sanctions. We are hearing from the Russian Foreign Ministry today, the
:11:57. > :12:01.European Union has practically speaking put at risk international
:12:02. > :12:07.cooperation in the area of security. What do you make of that? Actually
:12:08. > :12:12.it is a very dangerous situation because if you corner Russia, they
:12:13. > :12:18.will react. Here, it could be devastating for the whole of Europe.
:12:19. > :12:22.Sanctions are not going to work. Russia lived more than eight years
:12:23. > :12:29.under sanctions and they managed to survive. Now we're actually pushing
:12:30. > :12:34.Putin to be very radicalised and use all of his guards against Europe,
:12:35. > :12:39.who pays the price, Ukraine and the Europeans. The European firms will
:12:40. > :12:51.suffer because of this. Self`defeating? You are talking
:12:52. > :12:54.about 200 people. Until now we do not have any evidence the Russians
:12:55. > :13:06.or the rebels actually downed this jet. Of course. It could be by
:13:07. > :13:18.mistake. It didn't matter because they have the weapons. It is
:13:19. > :13:25.Russia's fault. Americans shoot down Iranian aeroplane in 1984. They
:13:26. > :13:30.said, no, for eight years and in the end they paid $62 million
:13:31. > :13:38.compensation. It does happen. What I'm against is sanctions against
:13:39. > :13:47.Iran, Russia, against career. Why? `` against North Korea. Who is
:13:48. > :13:54.suffering in Ukraine, Ukrainian people, their country will be
:13:55. > :14:01.dismembered. Who is paying? Russia is a rogue state. Who is paying for
:14:02. > :14:05.this crisis, the Europeans, they are paying for Ukraine and the sanction.
:14:06. > :14:13.We need to talk and reach a solution. In the Ukraine we have a
:14:14. > :14:16.civil war situation, it is more complex than we understand. There
:14:17. > :14:22.are Russian speakers, we have got this government in Kiev which, the
:14:23. > :14:24.Prime Minister has resigned, it has been problematic.
:14:25. > :14:28.Prime Minister has resigned, it has There was the building, with the
:14:29. > :14:31.Russians in it which was burned, terrible things have been done on
:14:32. > :14:36.both sides. What worries me, and I agree with you, we are in a
:14:37. > :14:40.dangerous situation because we are getting a new Cold War hysteria
:14:41. > :14:43.whipped up. Looking at the British tabloids, I was reading the daily
:14:44. > :14:54.Mirror and the Daily Mail, there is stuff about Putin the devil. He is a
:14:55. > :14:58.tyrant, there is no democracy. Listing which country in Europe is
:14:59. > :15:03.the most lily livered, we have to be careful, Putin's popularity has
:15:04. > :15:06.soared over the issue. If we want to do any good for the people of
:15:07. > :15:14.Ukraine and Russia, we should not go on like elephants, we need to be
:15:15. > :15:20.more thoughtful. What is the universal fear of Vladimir Putin
:15:21. > :15:27.that makes countries think. It is not a fear of Putin, it is economic,
:15:28. > :15:33.real politic, the Europeans have a lot of economic concerns in terms of
:15:34. > :15:41.mostly energy dependency. Instinctively, I hate to say on the
:15:42. > :15:45.one hand, on the other hand, I was living in the Soviet Union, in
:15:46. > :15:51.Moscow, in 1983 when the Soviets by mistake shot down a Korean airliner.
:15:52. > :16:00.31 years ago, my God, I am old! CHUCKLES
:16:01. > :16:05.I remember writing and thinking, when watching Vladimir Putin handled
:16:06. > :16:13.this. This is as much a psychological as a political
:16:14. > :16:19.problem. Basically, this is their lives `` this is very Soviet, he is
:16:20. > :16:24.a KGB thug, you say we are bringing back the Cold War, this is not a
:16:25. > :16:35.post`Soviet leader. Putin is a Soviet president. But I would see
:16:36. > :16:43.this as an opportunity and I know it is delicate. The Russians feel
:16:44. > :16:50.ashamed on some level, they feel guilty on some level. They try to
:16:51. > :16:56.pretend it was someone else's fault, but they know it was an
:16:57. > :17:12.accidental missile strike by rebels which the Russians gave arms too. It
:17:13. > :17:16.is a rogue state. I do not think sanctions will work. European
:17:17. > :17:22.sanctions are unlikely to happen. It is a more serious problem. I think
:17:23. > :17:30.if you ask, what is the best outcome? It is to get a situation
:17:31. > :17:42.where Vladimir Putin is given space to pull back... White is the British
:17:43. > :17:47.Government not finishing the oligarch? They are beginning to
:17:48. > :17:53.freeze their assets. They are not, he has not done it and it is because
:17:54. > :18:07.all these people bring money here and the city makes money. We want
:18:08. > :18:13.Russian respect for us. I agree. If it is a bully state, why should we
:18:14. > :18:21.give Vladimir Putin the ammunition? Why should we provoke him so he can
:18:22. > :18:28.be a security problem for the whole of Europe. I am going to be forceful
:18:29. > :18:29.and move on to our next topic. We are going to put sanctions in
:18:30. > :18:34.place! This week an international
:18:35. > :18:36.conference in London focused on female genital mutilation
:18:37. > :18:39.and some progress was made. David Cameron says
:18:40. > :18:41.his government will now prosecute parents who submit
:18:42. > :18:43.their daughters to this abuse. At the same time the Isis group
:18:44. > :18:46.of fighters in Iraq's city of Mosul say they are going to force all
:18:47. > :18:49.girls to be cut. Barri just how many girls
:18:50. > :19:06.are involved here? At least 4 million between the age
:19:07. > :19:18.of 11 and 16 because that is the age for this circumcision. But ISIS are
:19:19. > :19:23.not cutting the genital part. This is the last thing they are talking
:19:24. > :19:31.about. This is not part of the culture of Iraq, Syria and Jordan.
:19:32. > :19:45.It is a practice taking place in the Horn of Africa, Egypt and Saddam. Is
:19:46. > :19:51.it another sense of control? What is it? We were surprised to hear that.
:19:52. > :19:55.But through my own experience and the study of that part of the world,
:19:56. > :20:03.it is not part of the culture of Iraq or Syria. I think there could
:20:04. > :20:09.be a misunderstanding and I think the United Nations could be trapped
:20:10. > :20:15.in this. But it is brutal. ISIS is more brutal. They execute people,
:20:16. > :20:23.they hang them, they stone women to death if they commit adultery. But
:20:24. > :20:29.it is working in this country. I have been living in the last 13
:20:30. > :20:37.years here. The Egyptian community and the Sudanese practised it. But
:20:38. > :20:43.nobody can do it. They cannot even take their daughters to Egypt or
:20:44. > :20:47.Somalia in order to have this kind of genital cutting. But it is
:20:48. > :20:54.happening in other countries. There is a question about the accuracy of
:20:55. > :20:58.that report about ISIS saying that. It is one of those things that goes
:20:59. > :21:03.out over the Internet and it is not at all clear that report is
:21:04. > :21:10.accurate. We do know it does happen here. 137,000 cases. This conference
:21:11. > :21:14.is extremely welcome and it is important that this is discussed
:21:15. > :21:20.openly. It is difficult to bear to think about this. But there is
:21:21. > :21:26.something about it all so that I find slightly worrying. It made me
:21:27. > :21:28.slightly concerned to see Theresa May the Home Secretary saying we
:21:29. > :21:33.have to protect girls from this terrible scourge when women are
:21:34. > :21:37.claiming asylum here for themselves and their daughters on the basis of
:21:38. > :21:45.the threat of FGM are often not granted asylum, particularly the
:21:46. > :21:51.case of a woman from the Gambia who is the daughter of a woman who was
:21:52. > :21:55.an FGM practitioner in her community and who left the Gambia because when
:21:56. > :22:00.her mother died she would be forced to take up this role and she refused
:22:01. > :22:04.it. She was detained for five months in the aisles would where we know
:22:05. > :22:11.there is a lot of abuse, and she still has not got asylum. The
:22:12. > :22:17.Government needs to check what his left and right hand is doing. FGM
:22:18. > :22:22.has been illegal since 1985 and we need to think about our policy
:22:23. > :22:26.towards women coming from abroad. Do you think the British Government's
:22:27. > :22:33.thoughts and moods will reflect on to other governments? You are right.
:22:34. > :22:37.In a way one of the most positive things about the conference was that
:22:38. > :22:43.it raised the issue and it is the kind of thing that is talked about
:22:44. > :22:47.much too infrequently. Often with issues like this merely putting them
:22:48. > :22:53.on the agenda, this happen to landmines and lots of issues, once
:22:54. > :22:57.it becomes part of the intellectual dialogue at these conferences, the
:22:58. > :23:03.likelihood is something will happen not just here. I think you are right
:23:04. > :23:08.the problem is joined up Government to use that terrible phrase. So
:23:09. > :23:14.far, so good. Cameron taking the lead, putting it on the agenda, but
:23:15. > :23:23.it is the practical edge. Targeting the parents as well. It is not only
:23:24. > :23:27.do parents, but the doctors. I know doctors are practising these crimes
:23:28. > :23:32.behind doors and there is some understanding. But now because of
:23:33. > :23:35.the British Government putting pressure on criminalising this, now
:23:36. > :23:42.parents cannot take their children to other countries to have it done.
:23:43. > :23:51.In France they prosecute? Absolutely and it is a big crime. And they
:23:52. > :23:55.prosecute the doctors? And they prosecute the doctors, they cannot
:23:56. > :24:01.register or practice. Not only is the conference fantastic, but you
:24:02. > :24:08.need to spend money on education in these communities. Very often these
:24:09. > :24:11.communities are left out of the mainstream education system, they
:24:12. > :24:19.are quite poor. There is a big financial effort for education. What
:24:20. > :24:24.about coming up against the cultural aspects of it? Some women accept it
:24:25. > :24:29.is part of their culture. That is where an education programme would
:24:30. > :24:37.help. I mix with Somalis and Egyptians. The new generation is
:24:38. > :24:41.saying a big no to this practice. They are revolting against this
:24:42. > :24:50.practice. It is not Islamic, amoral and inhuman. They even say we are
:24:51. > :24:55.not going with our families to Somalia or Egypt or Sudan or other
:24:56. > :25:02.countries. If there is anything like this done, they report it. We have a
:25:03. > :25:06.rebellion amongst the community. We know in general things that help
:25:07. > :25:11.women all over the world Art education and economic development.
:25:12. > :25:17.To empower them both sexually, personally, economically, that is
:25:18. > :25:23.the most important thing. Prosecution is necessary as well.
:25:24. > :25:28.Does it drive it underground? There is always that risk, but you cannot
:25:29. > :25:32.say I am not going to prosecute because it will go underground. It
:25:33. > :25:37.is a terrible thing to do to anybody. Thank you to all of my
:25:38. > :25:42.guests today for discussing some pretty heavy topics. That is all
:25:43. > :25:45.from us for this week. We are back next week at the same time. From all
:25:46. > :26:16.of us, goodbye. Although southern areas will hold
:26:17. > :26:19.onto the sunshine, it looks like cooler and pressure conditions will
:26:20. > :26:27.move down from the north and the West. Scattered showers will push
:26:28. > :26:31.down maybe longer spells of rain and it will turn cooler. The reason is
:26:32. > :26:32.because