:00:00. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:28. > :00:31.It has been an unremittingly gloomy week. What President Obama
:00:32. > :00:35.suggested might be genocide in Iraq, the continuing conflict in Gaza,
:00:36. > :00:38.and the West African health emergency caused by Ebola.
:00:39. > :00:46.My guests, who will struggle to be cheerful in all this, are
:00:47. > :00:49.John Fisher Burns of the New York Times, Nabila Ramdani, who
:00:50. > :00:52.Saul Zadka of Arise TV and Alex Deane
:00:53. > :00:59.Iraq first ` and a distinguished professor of Middle East studies in
:01:00. > :01:02.London described the fighters of the Islamic State formerly known as ISIS
:01:03. > :01:07.as not so much Islamist as "evilist" ` filled with hatred for anyone,
:01:08. > :01:10.Muslim, Christian or otherwise ` who does not fit in with their extremist
:01:11. > :01:15.Is the United States ` and its allies ` inevitably going to have
:01:16. > :01:18.to deal with the IS threat which is already causing a humanitarian
:01:19. > :01:39.It is already dealing with it, in a way. This is the purported reason
:01:40. > :01:46.for the US going in, one reason for going into Iraq was purportedly to
:01:47. > :01:51.deny oxygen and space to groups like Al`Qaeda. And now we have a group
:01:52. > :01:56.which is more brutal than Al`Qaeda, we suspect, controlling large parts
:01:57. > :02:02.of Iraq, and trawling the US and the UK back into a conflict that we
:02:03. > :02:07.thought we had bid farewell to. `` drawing the US and the UK back in.
:02:08. > :02:10.My thought is, while the present conditions seem to our guru
:02:11. > :02:15.overwhelmingly for the use of air power, the question must be asked,
:02:16. > :02:19.where will it end, if we are going to do this in respect of the yet
:02:20. > :02:25.easy people, the Christian minority, and the Kurdish people, what are we
:02:26. > :02:32.going to do when the threat arrives at the gate of Baghdad? A government
:02:33. > :02:37.that the United States clearly has very little confidence in. It seems
:02:38. > :02:44.to me that the Iranians will step in, and confront the Islamic State.
:02:45. > :02:50.It is a terrible mess, and of course raises again the question of, how
:02:51. > :02:55.carefully did we consider the consequences of the invasion of Iraq
:02:56. > :03:00.in 23? Do you broadly agree that this has its roots in getting rid of
:03:01. > :03:05.Saddam Hussein, he hasn't got many friends and was a terrible man, is
:03:06. > :03:10.this the consequence of it, or not thinking through what would follow
:03:11. > :03:14.when he got rid of a dictator? Yes, absolutely. I think we can safely
:03:15. > :03:19.say that this kind of policy and taken by President Obama, which
:03:20. > :03:24.seems to be an ethical form of policy undertaken by a Western
:03:25. > :03:27.power, and let's be honest, it contrasts sharply with many foreign
:03:28. > :03:31.policy disasters, of which there have been plenty in the last two
:03:32. > :03:35.years, not least Iraq, so it's a matter of the US going back and
:03:36. > :03:41.sorting out the mess that it effectively created. There was no
:03:42. > :03:46.ISIS before the US`led invasion of Iraq in 23. But I think this
:03:47. > :03:50.American offensive action is hugely significant, not least of all
:03:51. > :03:56.because it is the first since they withdrew in 2011 but because we are
:03:57. > :04:00.again watching America in its role as a superpower, as the world
:04:01. > :04:04.policeman and the precision bombings we have seen so far have proved to
:04:05. > :04:10.be quite successful and they will continue, and meanwhile we have this
:04:11. > :04:14.huge managerial crisis to help those Christian communities, and the UCD
:04:15. > :04:18.people in particular, and this is all designed to prevent a potential
:04:19. > :04:23.genocide. Let's be honest, there does seem to be support for
:04:24. > :04:28.President Obama in Congress and in most countries. If you take one step
:04:29. > :04:33.back you could say it is fundamentally incoherent. A year
:04:34. > :04:38.ago, the American government was talking about bombing President
:04:39. > :04:43.Assad. Now they are bombing the people trying to get rid of him. We
:04:44. > :04:47.have a president who made his entire career of running the presidency
:04:48. > :04:52.based on the fact that he opposed the war in Iraq. And now, very
:04:53. > :04:57.reluctantly, he's been drawn into it, and as John says, we cannot see
:04:58. > :05:02.an end. What is the way out? Once you begin bombing for humanitarian
:05:03. > :05:06.reasons. Don't be too impressed by what he did yesterday. A view
:05:07. > :05:11.bombs, getting rid of the silly battery belonging to ISIS is not
:05:12. > :05:15.going to do the trick. This man in the White House thinking he's the
:05:16. > :05:18.American president, oblivious to the fact that whether he likes it or not
:05:19. > :05:23.he is the leader of the free world, somebody whose imagination does not
:05:24. > :05:28.stretch beyond Washington, DC could have solved the problem Mac back in
:05:29. > :05:33.January, when ISIS took over Fallujah, Andrew Mahdi, and instead,
:05:34. > :05:38.he was reluctant to intervene. He could have solved it simply by
:05:39. > :05:45.bombing this specific position that ISIS took in a generally in Fallujah
:05:46. > :05:50.and the province. He did not. Then ISIS, two months ago, took over the
:05:51. > :05:56.second largest city in Iraq, Mosul. He did not do anything about it. And
:05:57. > :05:59.then one month later, he didn't do anything to help the Christian
:06:00. > :06:04.people there. They expose the Kurdish people and he did nothing.
:06:05. > :06:08.Now that we are facing a genocide because the years the deep people
:06:09. > :06:12.are going to be obliterated by the ISIS, only now is the doing
:06:13. > :06:16.something which also could be regarded as very unsatisfactory, too
:06:17. > :06:24.little, too late. It reminded me of President Clinton and his two token
:06:25. > :06:28.bombshells on positions of Al`Qaeda in Sudan, on the eve of some are
:06:29. > :06:33.better lard and moving to Afghanistan and after that she
:06:34. > :06:35.brought on himself the September the 11th disaster. President Obama is
:06:36. > :06:43.reluctant to do anything beyond what he wants to do. I agree and it seems
:06:44. > :06:48.that there are parallels to be drawn with the former Yugoslavia. Because
:06:49. > :06:53.when the West sought to impose peace by air power, those on the ground,
:06:54. > :06:58.who were conducting ethnic cleansing, thought we need to beat
:06:59. > :07:00.up our ethnic cleansing and persecution to deal with this before
:07:01. > :07:05.the International committee really commits. This clearly cannot be
:07:06. > :07:09.solved by air power. You cannot police the situation from 10,000
:07:10. > :07:17.feet above, nor can you meaningfully help individuals. The Casey referred
:07:18. > :07:22.to in Bosnia, where I spent a good deal of time, was a case where air
:07:23. > :07:28.power did work. `` the case that you refer to. It was three years too
:07:29. > :07:32.late, when the USA and leashed its navy and its teams over Bosnia, the
:07:33. > :07:36.insurgency, to call it that, collapsed very quickly. And they
:07:37. > :07:41.rushed to get abuse agreement. The situation is different here to fly
:07:42. > :07:48.Mac I see a great irony, I think that would be the polite word, in
:07:49. > :07:52.the shifting positions of those who condemned the United States for
:07:53. > :07:56.going into Iraq when one of its reasons, let's not forget, beyond
:07:57. > :08:00.weapons of mass destruction, was to enter the murderous tyranny of
:08:01. > :08:04.Saddam Hussein. And there were many people, many calling themselves
:08:05. > :08:08.liberals, who condemned President Bush absolutely for that, and have
:08:09. > :08:14.been judged largely right as a result of the consequences. `` it
:08:15. > :08:18.was to end the tyranny. Many of those same people are now asking,
:08:19. > :08:25.where it is the USA, with the leadership, with the bombing? As
:08:26. > :08:33.Colin Powell says, if you break it, you own it. Isn't the root of the
:08:34. > :08:37.problem that the exercise of so`called democracy in Iraq has been
:08:38. > :08:40.a failure, what we have is an incompetent sectarian government in
:08:41. > :08:44.Baghdad which cannot possibly control the country. The country of
:08:45. > :08:52.Iraq has ceased to exist. Very much so. We had a very weak American
:08:53. > :08:58.government, doing nothing to encourage more inclusiveness in
:08:59. > :09:01.Nouri al`Maliki's government which encourages the persecution of
:09:02. > :09:05.different groups and the Obama administration did nothing to
:09:06. > :09:10.support a fairer government. Some people would argue that this latest
:09:11. > :09:16.action is designed to protect America's own interests. And their
:09:17. > :09:21.personnel. Heap does have personnel and that you could also say that is
:09:22. > :09:27.for domestic political reasons. I spent hours in Baghdad with American
:09:28. > :09:31.ambassadors, secretaries of State, looking to sit up a table with Nouri
:09:32. > :09:34.al`Maliki and tried to argue with him to broaden his government
:09:35. > :09:39.because otherwise no amount of American military effort was going
:09:40. > :09:42.to save Iraq. There had to be a political reconciliation. He refused
:09:43. > :09:50.it and went on refusing, American troops left, he became even more
:09:51. > :09:56.sectarian. Propping him up all the time. They could have got rid of him
:09:57. > :10:05.and they were in a position to do that. In a war for democracy... Is
:10:06. > :10:13.not the exercise of democracy, it has not exercise in Iraq, that's the
:10:14. > :10:18.floor. To have an impact on the domestic political arena they should
:10:19. > :10:25.have found a replacement from Nouri al`Maliki. Is the only other source
:10:26. > :10:28.of security who could really run the place, that's investment, and that
:10:29. > :10:32.is collapsing as well in the face of the current crisis. The FT has
:10:33. > :10:36.reported this weekend that Exxon Mobil, Chevron, they are pulling
:10:37. > :10:41.nonessential personnel out. As soon as that kind of business, it's
:10:42. > :10:44.already a broken country, as soon as that kind of business, oil and
:10:45. > :10:49.extractive industries, Stubbs, there's no way to run it internally
:10:50. > :10:54.with a proper funding stream anyway. Both sides collapsing, the democracy
:10:55. > :10:59.and any kind of business ability. A recipe for disaster. At the very
:11:00. > :11:05.least you would have to say about the bombings yesterday that the USA
:11:06. > :11:12.and the UK might have two reimpose a no`fly zone. `` they might have to
:11:13. > :11:21.do that. As they were doing until 2003. But they will be doing it on
:11:22. > :11:25.the ground, from little streets. Remember, the no`fly zone through
:11:26. > :11:29.the 1990s into the early part of this decade was designed to prevent
:11:30. > :11:36.Saddam Hussein moving his troops forward into cities like Irbil. I
:11:37. > :11:41.think the reason why there is support this time for America
:11:42. > :11:44.intervening is that ISIS is so spectacularly cruel and wicked that
:11:45. > :11:47.even Al`Qaeda has disowned them and they are literally tearing to pieces
:11:48. > :11:57.every when they perceive as an enemy. Which is everybody except
:11:58. > :12:00.them. Only about 7500 people in Iraqi territories. They could be
:12:01. > :12:09.Freddy Eastwood the other come, and we don't do it. `` they would be
:12:10. > :12:16.very easily overcome. The USA has a lot of responsibility in Iraq. Where
:12:17. > :12:21.other European allies? They don't want to do that. The British are
:12:22. > :12:24.just paying lip service. They don't want to intervene. They will be
:12:25. > :12:32.happy to provide humanitarian aid but it is left to the Americans to
:12:33. > :12:37.do the job. ISIS, dare I say, has Hollywood villain stamped all over
:12:38. > :12:40.them. This is just the kind of simplistic policy presentation
:12:41. > :12:45.designed for mid`America. It fits perfectly into it and this is why
:12:46. > :12:50.Obama is enjoying support at home. Let's move on. Even the optimists in
:12:51. > :12:54.the Middle East never talked about peace in Gaza, merely a cease`fire
:12:55. > :12:58.but there were hopes that exhaustion on both sides might lead to the
:12:59. > :13:02.realisation that nobody could stick a military victory. When we are
:13:03. > :13:07.apparently just one rocket away from even more deaths, where are we now
:13:08. > :13:12.in this jazz game between Israel and the Palestinians? Yesterday, the
:13:13. > :13:15.hostilities resume. If you read the British media you would imagine both
:13:16. > :13:20.sides had started shooting each other. This was not the case. Hamas
:13:21. > :13:24.did not want to continue the talks in Cairo simply because 72 hours of
:13:25. > :13:30.a cease`fire was enough for them. They want achievements, meaning
:13:31. > :13:33.lifting the siege, opening a new seaport, and giving them tremendous
:13:34. > :13:40.concessions, rewarding them for what has happened. I don't want to repeat
:13:41. > :13:44.all the cliches about the position of Hamas, and its missile launchers,
:13:45. > :13:52.it's enough for me to say that when we talk about ISIS, Hamas is all the
:13:53. > :13:57.way with ISIS, every inch of the way, except on one point, is as Mike
:13:58. > :14:02.has established its caliphate, Hamas has been doing it for seven years ``
:14:03. > :14:07.ISIS has established its caliphate. Hezbollah was doing it even before
:14:08. > :14:11.that. Hamas is not in the position of even dictating terms to the
:14:12. > :14:14.Egyptian, if you ask me. The Israelis would be foolish to accept
:14:15. > :14:20.any kind of concessions following what happened, remember on July 18
:14:21. > :14:24.there was an Egyptian cease`fire on the table. Hamas rejected it under
:14:25. > :14:31.the pressure of the new sponsors of terrorism in the Middle East. Qatar.
:14:32. > :14:35.And now Hamas refusing to consider even the possibility of extending
:14:36. > :14:40.the cease`fire. If you want to know Hamas, read the Charter, it's very
:14:41. > :14:44.well documented. It is not just that they refuse to recognise Israel
:14:45. > :14:48.diplomatically like the rest of the Arab world except two countries, it
:14:49. > :14:51.is the Hamas charter but does not want to recognise Israel as an
:14:52. > :14:57.entity in the Middle East because for them the Middle East is sacred.
:14:58. > :15:00.There is chilling reading, refusing `` referring to the Jews as
:15:01. > :15:04.worshippers of the devil. If you think that Hamas Wilbert, they
:15:05. > :15:08.won't, because if you remove the charter, this is their very reason
:15:09. > :15:14.for existing `` if you think that Hamas will budge. And this is why I
:15:15. > :15:18.think there is no future for any negotiation with Hamas, because, and
:15:19. > :15:23.this is my main point, the Palestinians proved they could not
:15:24. > :15:25.be trusted with the territory. They had Gaza to themselves for 7 euros
:15:26. > :15:29.and turned it into a base of and turned it into a base of
:15:30. > :15:35.terrorism. That is the fear of the Israelis that something similar will
:15:36. > :15:40.happen in the West Bank. I think Hamas is a terrorist group
:15:41. > :15:46.with next to no military capability. We have seen this in the latest
:15:47. > :15:50.round of violence. Three Israeli civilians have been
:15:51. > :15:54.killed, two died of shock. Nobody condones the firing of obsolete
:15:55. > :15:58.rockets into Israel. But they must be dealt with in the manner that
:15:59. > :16:05.reflects the danger that they represent. They represent next to
:16:06. > :16:11.zero danger to Israeli lives. Why? Because there is a very effective
:16:12. > :16:15.iron dome Pro tenting the lives of the Israelis that is good. What is
:16:16. > :16:21.at stake is the security of the Palestinians. That is very much the
:16:22. > :16:27.heart of the matter. And the Israelis trying to justify mass
:16:28. > :16:32.murder, more than 2,000 people, more than 400 children, 85%... So you are
:16:33. > :16:40.saying it is disproportionate to the threat that is being posed? Not only
:16:41. > :16:49.that but we are hearing false logic used by the Israelis. Indeed
:16:50. > :16:55.infanticide, to ludicrous claims of 9/11. In my recollection, 9/11
:16:56. > :17:00.resulted in the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, that is
:17:01. > :17:03.exactly what this operation achieved in Palestine, not the other way
:17:04. > :17:08.around. I think we could move beyond the
:17:09. > :17:11.sorts of arguments that we are seeing on every discussion programme
:17:12. > :17:18.on television in this country. What I want to say is that I think that
:17:19. > :17:24.one thing that everybody can agree on is that the security of
:17:25. > :17:31.Palestine, Gaza and Israel is the desired end state with a two`state
:17:32. > :17:36.solution. It seems to me that Hamas has not been, has paid a heavy price
:17:37. > :17:41.but has achieved something in all of this, which is to threaten the
:17:42. > :17:46.security of the state of Israel in the sense that the security of
:17:47. > :17:49.Israel depends not just on the flow of arms, finances and diplomatic
:17:50. > :17:55.backing from the West but from public opinion. It is unarguable,
:17:56. > :18:00.that what we have seen on the television screens, with we can
:18:01. > :18:07.debate the fairness of the media but 2,000, civilians mostly, killed,
:18:08. > :18:11.400`odd children, has done enormous damage to Israel's standing in the
:18:12. > :18:18.world. As it result it will damage its security. Israel's security is
:18:19. > :18:24.in... But it had no choice... I will come back to both of you. That is a
:18:25. > :18:27.very important point. Israel can clearly defend itself, the defence
:18:28. > :18:31.is not the same as national security. That is a wider issue,
:18:32. > :18:36.about whether you can trust neighbours. In that sense, John may
:18:37. > :18:40.be right. The recent events have been bad for
:18:41. > :18:44.Israel in terms of its standing in the community. That is
:18:45. > :18:47.unquestionable. But Israel has endured extensive criticism in the
:18:48. > :18:52.UN and other bodies and carried on. I am a supporter of the state of
:18:53. > :18:57.Israel but it is difficult to say to Israelis, who have put up with the
:18:58. > :19:04.criticisms and then been Iing perked to say that this is different. This
:19:05. > :19:07.is potentially a watershed. The difference between the international
:19:08. > :19:12.opinion and what is happening in Israel is that the Israeli generals
:19:13. > :19:15.have been given permission to deal with military threats as they see
:19:16. > :19:26.them and they will carry on doing that. That is their job. I question
:19:27. > :19:33.the logic of Irbil, about a propores mate response. What is the Merritt
:19:34. > :19:40.of it? Do you lessen it because you have an iron dome. It works all the
:19:41. > :20:16.of the time. Three Israelis have died. Two died of shock.
:20:17. > :20:19.the same again. Do you take the big point, that is, we have only a
:20:20. > :20:27.minute left but the point that John is making that Israel depends `` is
:20:28. > :20:33.that Israel depends on a degree of goodwill from western industries? Of
:20:34. > :20:36.course. That is why Hamas has lost its entire support in the Arab
:20:37. > :20:43.world. The last point I would like to make,
:20:44. > :20:47.the ceasefire ended and then Hamas started firing again.
:20:48. > :20:52.If Hamas put down its arms, there would be peace in the region. In
:20:53. > :20:57.Israel #3u9 down the arms there would be a massacre of Jews like you
:20:58. > :21:04.have not seen before. Israels have not conducted themselves well but
:21:05. > :21:10.that fundamental is true. The security of Israel being threatened
:21:11. > :21:13.is a myth. That is fundamental. The Palestinian people is the only
:21:14. > :21:18.people on earth to be asked to guarantee the security of its
:21:19. > :21:22.occupier. Israel would have gained worldwide sympathy if it decided to
:21:23. > :21:26.resolve this through the international community. But it
:21:27. > :21:30.decided to send soldiers. Let's move on.
:21:31. > :21:36.So, when you thought that the news around the world could not get any
:21:37. > :21:42.worse, the Ebola outbreak in West Africa is spreading and health
:21:43. > :21:47.emergency is becoming a main point for systems that cannot cope. What
:21:48. > :21:58.should we do in the richer western worlds to help? We must not be
:21:59. > :22:03.spectators. The attitude of Medecins Sans Frontieres is vital.
:22:04. > :22:08.I have spent time in Sierra Leone it is clear to me, a beautiful country,
:22:09. > :22:12.great people that they are, that the infrastructure is inadequate.
:22:13. > :22:16.Without Ebola, the medical infrastructure in Sierra Leone was
:22:17. > :22:22.not good enough for the day`to`day means. When Ebola strikes and the
:22:23. > :22:27.doctors are getting sick from a high mortality rate you need help from
:22:28. > :22:32.the international community. Unlike the thorny subjects that we have
:22:33. > :22:38.been discussing, here there is a right answer: A massive western aid
:22:39. > :22:43.as soon as possible. I have talked to health workers,
:22:44. > :22:48.Medecins Sans Frontieres, so on, they lack basic equipment. They are
:22:49. > :22:53.not looking for a miracle cure, that would be great but they want test
:22:54. > :22:58.kits and a degree of public order that they cannot impose.
:22:59. > :23:03.Obama has a fantastic opportunity to deliver as the leader of the free
:23:04. > :23:07.world. But traditionally we choose the third item on the programme as a
:23:08. > :23:11.cheerful one. I did not think it was possible this
:23:12. > :23:18.week. I was thinking there is something cheerful about Ebola. What
:23:19. > :23:23.is it? A jihadi group? Are they competing with Boko Haram? No. It is
:23:24. > :23:28.a disease. Unlike jihad it is curable.
:23:29. > :23:33.It is interesting, it is unarguable that it is up to us to do what is
:23:34. > :23:37.within our power and financial ability and reach within medical
:23:38. > :23:42.knowledge to deal with this but so far about 1,000 people, less, have
:23:43. > :23:48.died of Ebola in West Africa. Every day, every week that passes, many
:23:49. > :23:54.thousands of people across the underdeveloped world die of malaria,
:23:55. > :23:59.pneumonia and other diseases, and perhaps the cynical thought occurs
:24:00. > :24:04.to me, that the reason why Ebola has caught everyone's attention is that
:24:05. > :24:08.everyone is scared that the airports are not sufficiently secured and
:24:09. > :24:14.that Ebola may migrate. That is a legitimate fear to be
:24:15. > :24:19.concerned about. If a traveller comes from malaria, we are well able
:24:20. > :24:23.to treat it. Someone from West Africa with Ebola, the chances are
:24:24. > :24:27.high of their own death and the chances are significant of
:24:28. > :24:33.contaminating others it is a real threat. The priority of western
:24:34. > :24:38.countries, let's be honest, for the rich of the world, to keep Ebola
:24:39. > :24:43.out. We have seen how countries like Britain and France have been
:24:44. > :24:47.monitoring flights from West Africa, the overriding aim to prevent the
:24:48. > :24:52.disease getting here. But countries in the UN and individual countries,
:24:53. > :24:59.pledging money for the countries blighted by the disease. But the
:25:00. > :25:06.number one priority was always to effectively train aircraft crew and
:25:07. > :25:15.airport staff to spot the victims of Ebola. Again, it is self`interesting
:25:16. > :25:20.that is the dynamic behind dealing with this horrific disease. But I
:25:21. > :25:24.believe we have a duty to ensure that the greatest medical minds and
:25:25. > :25:28.research laboratories do all that they can to show solidarity,
:25:29. > :25:33.international solidarity. We talk about war a lot on this programme as
:25:34. > :25:38.being a massive threat to international security but plague or
:25:39. > :25:43.pestilence remains is as much of a threat.
:25:44. > :25:49.An idea that may unite the first part of our discussion to the latter
:25:50. > :25:57.one is how much money has been spent by the West by the United States and
:25:58. > :26:04.the United Kingdom, in the last ten years, trillions of dollars. Let's
:26:05. > :26:07.imagine for a moment that we had sought diplomatic solutions to the
:26:08. > :26:12.challenges and been able to spend even half of that money on
:26:13. > :26:19.combatting illness in the Third World, how much different a picture
:26:20. > :26:25.that this would now look. An optimistic note to end on. That
:26:26. > :26:27.is it for Dateline this week. We hope to have better news next week.
:26:28. > :26:55.Goodbye. Hi there. Today is the quiet before
:26:56. > :26:56.the storm. The storm in question is an old