:00:00. > :00:00.There is a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour. Right now on
:00:00. > :00:34.BBC News, Dateline London with Tim Hello and welcome to Dateline. On
:00:35. > :00:39.today's programme, the barbarity of Islamic State: Will America and the
:00:40. > :00:42.West now have to join forces with President Bashar al`Assad to
:00:43. > :00:45.defeated? The shooting dead of black teenager Michael Brown by a white
:00:46. > :00:50.policeman in misery and the racial fault lines it has exposed. And
:00:51. > :00:55.everyone seems to be doing the ice bucket challenge, but who exactly
:00:56. > :01:02.for? My guess David Aronowitz shop The Times, Nina Balleret be,
:01:03. > :01:07.Jeff McAllister, the writer and broadcaster, and UNESCO wears, the
:01:08. > :01:10.Portuguese writer. Welcome to you all.
:01:11. > :01:18.Let's start with Iraq. What does the West do about Isis or the Islamic
:01:19. > :01:21.State? The sheer barbarity of Islamic State was brought into even
:01:22. > :01:25.sharper relief this week with the release of a video with the
:01:26. > :01:29.beheading of American journalist James Foley. The worldwide revulsion
:01:30. > :01:34.at the killing prompted yet another American air strike `` more air
:01:35. > :01:36.strikes against northern Iraq, and the first public recognition
:01:37. > :01:41.internationally that pretty unsavoury alliances might need to be
:01:42. > :01:44.forced to defeat them `` forged. David, you were a proponent and
:01:45. > :01:48.agreed with the invasion of Iraq and boots on the ground. What do you
:01:49. > :01:52.think should happen? I'll tell you what I don't think should happen,
:01:53. > :01:57.there shouldn't be any deal with President al`Assad, I do think that
:01:58. > :02:03.is conceivably possible. Seeing as I do, believing as I do, that the
:02:04. > :02:07.roots of Isis has its roots in the Syrian civil war and the failure of
:02:08. > :02:11.the Iraqi government to deal with its Sunni minority and so on, almost
:02:12. > :02:14.the last thing you would want to do is maintain the tyrant in power in
:02:15. > :02:19.Syria and give the message to every Sunni who is not a member of Isis
:02:20. > :02:24.and so on, that effectively you have taken the other side and don't care
:02:25. > :02:31.about these dictatorships. Not only is it a year since Assad himself
:02:32. > :02:34.carried out the chemical attack, but even at the same time we were
:02:35. > :02:41.getting reports of 10,000 people killed by his Secret Service, tagged
:02:42. > :02:46.and pictured, to which the world barely reacted. So you don't do
:02:47. > :02:50.that, but I do think, and I will say briefly then shut up, I do think we
:02:51. > :02:55.have reached the point where, with the agreement with the Kurds and the
:02:56. > :02:59.Iraqi government, it is entirely fair for the West, and by the West
:03:00. > :03:04.we generally mean the Americans as you know, to take what action is
:03:05. > :03:14.necessary with air power to interdict Isis. That might mean
:03:15. > :03:22.crossing into Syrian air space. Could that be agreed? I do not think
:03:23. > :03:27.an agreement with President Assad is the way to go. He is part of the
:03:28. > :03:30.problem, not part of the solution. He did not take any action against
:03:31. > :03:37.ISIS as they were growing. They were killing the very opposition to him.
:03:38. > :03:42.The idea that you can form an alliance with him, which is what he
:03:43. > :03:50.was saying, if it is not me, it will be the terrorists, it would be a
:03:51. > :03:55.disaster. I do think it is not just a matter of military air strikes,
:03:56. > :04:01.this idea that we talk about a Sunni minority, there are problems in the
:04:02. > :04:16.Sunni majority, but ISIS has killed as many Sunni Moslems. `` Muslims.
:04:17. > :04:21.When it comes to the language coming out of Washington, is this just
:04:22. > :04:25.catching up? Has President Obama been so weak, are these tactical
:04:26. > :04:34.responses, rather than an overall strategy. It should have been
:04:35. > :04:35.addressed by not invading Iraq in the first place. You can tell
:04:36. > :04:46.series of calamities, as is everyone.
:04:47. > :04:50.great ideas on how to deal with this. If you do have people who are
:04:51. > :04:53.saying we do not like the idea of sanctuary in Syria, that seems to be
:04:54. > :04:58.leaning end, this must be in the works, or else they would not have
:04:59. > :05:03.said it. It may not be a formal alliance with President Assad, but
:05:04. > :05:17.it about ISIS. He now sees them as a
:05:18. > :05:30.threat and could make some common cause with the Americans. The
:05:31. > :05:34.Russians would love this. You can see being greedy and is here for a
:05:35. > :05:38.deal, I am not sure it can happen, it is so complicate it and there is
:05:39. > :05:44.so much hatred and alliance shifting going on. When you look at what
:05:45. > :05:50.happened before, Francois Hollande once a conference on this, is the
:05:51. > :05:59.European response at United? It will try to be, but I do not think no one
:06:00. > :06:05.knows exactly what to do. They do not know what to be united about. On
:06:06. > :06:08.the point about President Assad, we are already a bit late in terms of
:06:09. > :06:12.cod nation with the West. co`operation. This is already
:06:13. > :06:33.happening. We need NATO countries and the countries in
:06:34. > :06:43.the region, like Turkey, they will have an
:06:44. > :06:50.open and continues to be open and this is essentially leading to a lot
:06:51. > :06:55.of movement. Something has to be done. For Kurdistan, this is a
:06:56. > :07:02.perfect opportunity to push for full independence. It is coming back to
:07:03. > :07:07.you and the Sunni awakening, which reduced a lot of sectarian killings,
:07:08. > :07:12.is it possible to pull Iraq is back together, to have that consensus of
:07:13. > :07:17.working together? Of course it is possible, but the political system
:07:18. > :07:21.is so broken that it is based on divide and rule rather than bringing
:07:22. > :07:25.Iraqis together. The idea that people talk about militias,
:07:26. > :07:28.depending on their sect rather than saying we are all criminals and we
:07:29. > :07:34.have to treat them as criminals. In addition to the awakening, it was
:07:35. > :07:39.something the Americans did, they paid these people, you need
:07:40. > :07:45.salaries. The Americans have stopped those payments. You have got
:07:46. > :07:53.politicians from the same party, are they joined at the hip? For a while
:07:54. > :07:57.they were. It is not just about the personalities, it is about the
:07:58. > :08:05.elite. There are those that are members of government, for example
:08:06. > :08:15.the Transport Minister, he has been in military fatigues for the last
:08:16. > :08:21.couple of months. Again, I think he feels international pressure. There
:08:22. > :08:34.cannot be an Leicester are military strikes, we just ignore it, there
:08:35. > :08:39.has to be international pressure. After the invasion, where are the
:08:40. > :08:44.personnel, the people with the skills, the people with the
:08:45. > :08:50.ability, the intelligence to bring the country back together? This is a
:08:51. > :08:58.big problem, there is a huge vacuum. They do not have the resources.
:08:59. > :09:04.Military training, personnel training... There has to be far
:09:05. > :09:09.more. In terms of reason versus, fighters, they exist in Iraq. There
:09:10. > :09:18.is a problem of command `` resources. There are Iranians
:09:19. > :09:25.trainers in Iraq alongside Americans now. On the issue of the proxy war,
:09:26. > :09:30.is there any other way of tackling that, which is not being done? You
:09:31. > :09:37.can clearly see that all the parties involved in this, including Saudi
:09:38. > :09:41.Arabia, I find Qatar are more difficult to understand and in
:09:42. > :09:50.almost every way. It is one of the great mysteries. Almost all of them
:09:51. > :09:56.have become alarmed at what they have helped to fashion in the
:09:57. > :09:59.region. It is one thing to jostle region. It is one thing to jostle
:10:00. > :10:14.for supremacy, it is quite another to have open up on your borders,
:10:15. > :10:20.flagrant anarchy... Vladimir Putin is finding this to an extent in the
:10:21. > :10:26.Ukraine, it is hard to control things. They are edging towards an
:10:27. > :10:33.idea of how we can discuss this so we do not just poor weapons into
:10:34. > :10:36.people on our side. What is your thinking? No one in America
:10:37. > :10:43.presumably wants to see troops on the ground, but would there be
:10:44. > :10:52.support for preventing Mass occurs? The argument is that the Islamic
:10:53. > :11:07.state `` Islamic State becomes Afghanistan on steroids `` Mass
:11:08. > :11:19.occurs. `` massacres. I do not think it is leading to a demand to do
:11:20. > :11:31.something, but it may lead to a permission for President Obama to do
:11:32. > :11:40.something if he wants to. Your hearing a lot of voices in
:11:41. > :11:45.Washington saying that this is a serious long`term threat. Just
:11:46. > :11:47.bombing and perhaps getting ground forces to do something about it in
:11:48. > :11:50.that area does not solve the problem of radical ideology. We are talking
:11:51. > :11:51.about tactics and bombing, where is the economic growth, why is the
:11:52. > :11:52.ideology that says peace and security and tolerance can be yours
:11:53. > :11:55.if you do these things? It depends on working government being able to
:11:56. > :12:03.manage things on the ground, that is in short supply as well.
:12:04. > :12:06.Let's move now to the US and the recent racial violence
:12:07. > :12:08.which has caused such concern, the shooting dead of black teenager
:12:09. > :12:11.Michael Brown by a white police officer in Missouri exposing deep
:12:12. > :12:15.America's first black President has been in office for six years now,
:12:16. > :12:26.but what has changed from 30 years ago.
:12:27. > :12:37.Not very much from what we have seen from Ferguson. One in five Americans
:12:38. > :12:40.is poor, unemployment rates are much higher amongst African Americans and
:12:41. > :12:45.even the perception of what went on in Ferguson, there is a huge
:12:46. > :12:50.difference between the white perception and black perception.
:12:51. > :12:54.Yesterday there was a poll which showed that most black African
:12:55. > :13:01.Americans saw that this was a wake`up call for race relations.
:13:02. > :13:03.Only one third of whites believe that this is a serious matter. Two
:13:04. > :13:18.thirds of African Americans thought the police overreacted, in contrast
:13:19. > :13:20.to only one third off whites. This shows a divided country, pretty much
:13:21. > :13:24.segregated, whether whites do not know how black people live. There is
:13:25. > :13:28.be somewhere in Iraq. The police be somewhere in Iraq. The police
:13:29. > :13:33.force has 6% of black people, but the population in Ferguson is an 84%
:13:34. > :13:37.black. When it comes to President in Bama `` President Obama, not wanting
:13:38. > :13:45.to play the race card, but does he need to do more, saying we want to
:13:46. > :13:48.heal these wounds? He is dammed if he does act as the first black
:13:49. > :13:53.President and he is dammed if he does not. You cannot walk away from
:13:54. > :13:58.the reality. It is the same as the Middle East, there are divisions.
:13:59. > :14:03.The same for the Americans, they almost do not want to have the
:14:04. > :14:08.conversation, but they need to. He has to step up. It is extraordinary
:14:09. > :14:13.that he only interrupted his holiday for a couple of days when this is
:14:14. > :14:17.the most significant, physical presence of these racial tensions on
:14:18. > :14:23.the ground and for the world to see. In addition, what has been
:14:24. > :14:27.surprising is that his statement on Ferguson was so muted compared to
:14:28. > :14:32.2008, whereas people are telling him, you do not need to win another
:14:33. > :14:37.election, this is your time to step up and say this problem needs to be
:14:38. > :14:41.tackled. It is an issue of perceptions, you have to tackle the
:14:42. > :14:47.perception that the police does not protect everyone equally. When
:14:48. > :14:52.Trayvon Martin was killed, President Obama it used some strong language,
:14:53. > :14:58.this could have been my son... He stepped back from that now and I
:14:59. > :15:03.wonder what your perception was off where America is now? Certain
:15:04. > :15:07.studies say that blacks who were born after 1976 are nice saying, a
:15:08. > :15:17.lot of this is our fault, we need to pull ourselves up `` are now
:15:18. > :15:24.saying. I was very seduced by a herd narrative, it is not untraditional
:15:25. > :15:33.and not completely unfair `` her narrative. You are right in the
:15:34. > :15:37.sense, there are people in America, black people in America who wonder
:15:38. > :15:41.if this narrative serves them. The problem they have is that when you
:15:42. > :15:49.get a situation like the one in Ferguson, where a black guy with a
:15:50. > :15:55.knife is shot by police in full view of the camera, a guy... Calorie
:15:56. > :15:59.member how long ago, it is not love `` but without long ago since the
:16:00. > :16:05.killers of Lee Rigby when two policemen with guns in London and
:16:06. > :16:10.were shot in the leg. Is it really impossible for a white American
:16:11. > :16:14.policeman or even a black American policeman to disarm a knifeman
:16:15. > :16:24.without pumping six or seven shots into him? Is it inconceivable? What
:16:25. > :16:28.is wrong with you? Perhaps you can answer this question, I find it
:16:29. > :16:33.really difficult. It was almost as if the policing in Ferguson, they
:16:34. > :16:37.said, who cares what everyone thinks? Who cares how everyone is
:16:38. > :16:43.reacting? Who cares if we are contributing to this problem?
:16:44. > :16:49.Standard police doctrine is if you take your gum `` gun out, it is to
:16:50. > :16:56.kill someone. Why is that? Maybe they have tasers. I agree
:16:57. > :17:01.completely. There are 18,000 small police departments across the United
:17:02. > :17:08.States, they all have their own little areas, in Ferguson there are
:17:09. > :17:12.57 white officers. The standards of training, race relations, the
:17:13. > :17:16.standards of intelligence in terms of controlling situations like this
:17:17. > :17:24.are going to be spotty because of centralised control. Is it also the
:17:25. > :17:29.militarisation? You look at the Pentagon funding, camouflaged
:17:30. > :17:33.uniform on the streets of Ferguson. They say if they have camouflaged
:17:34. > :17:40.uniform they should have McDonald's uniform because he would fit into a
:17:41. > :17:44.shopping mall. The SWAT string has been very attractive. Big police
:17:45. > :17:49.departments for all the history of racial departments are making
:17:50. > :17:52.progress in terms of numbers, tactics and community acceptance, so
:17:53. > :17:56.it is not impossible, but like many other things to do with race in
:17:57. > :17:59.America, there is so much inheritance and uphill battle that
:18:00. > :18:05.you sometimes feel quite depressed that it is ever solvable. UNESCO how
:18:06. > :18:14.are you writing about this for your readers? `` Younis. Race in America
:18:15. > :18:18.and here in Europe is still very divisive, but has Europe perhaps
:18:19. > :18:22.done more intense progress? I am not sure because the problems might be
:18:23. > :18:30.different. In the end it boils down to the persistence of racism. We had
:18:31. > :18:35.riots in London a few years ago, race was only a dimensional of those
:18:36. > :18:41.riots. One very important thing I mentioned about the Ferguson riots
:18:42. > :18:48.is class. In America, race and class are interlinked, but it is also the
:18:49. > :18:51.question of class, access to education, good employment, good
:18:52. > :18:56.opportunities, living in good neighbourhoods safe neighbourhoods
:18:57. > :19:02.and so one. You don't see progress in these measures? Some small
:19:03. > :19:08.progress? There is no lessons from Europe. But is that part of it, is
:19:09. > :19:11.that something which is shared across Republican and Democrat lines
:19:12. > :19:14.or other Democrats pushing more for something on that front marked
:19:15. > :19:23.yellow the Democrats traditionally have. Among the Republicans this is
:19:24. > :19:29.no longer discussed. Jack Kennedy made an effort to try to focus on
:19:30. > :19:32.the urban poor, what the Republicans could do for it, and there is still
:19:33. > :19:35.talk of if you take the government away and let everyone big
:19:36. > :19:39.capitalists black people will rise like everyone else, but there is no
:19:40. > :19:44.dialogue in the Republican party any more. What are your thoughts in
:19:45. > :19:48.terms of education programmes, funding? Is it more positive
:19:49. > :19:55.discrimination, saying in America, in terms of education, we need to be
:19:56. > :20:03.spending much more on the American black population? I think it should
:20:04. > :20:07.be much more about, like you said, class and giving advantages to those
:20:08. > :20:11.who are under certain lines, not necessarily poverty lines, which
:20:12. > :20:14.there are, but certain lines. It gently because you are black. Some
:20:15. > :20:21.believe in affirmative action others say not, but it should be given a
:20:22. > :20:25.boost to those who are from less advantage backgrounds `` shouldn't
:20:26. > :20:29.be because you are black. We find in the US that there is this history
:20:30. > :20:33.that is so loaded, and still very recent, and sometimes, you are
:20:34. > :20:37.right, perhaps the generation that came after the 70s doesn't remember
:20:38. > :20:41.as vividly, but now will use Ferguson as a reference point, so it
:20:42. > :20:45.is so important what happens in the next few days to take away the
:20:46. > :20:48.military police and not say the National Guard is how we deal with
:20:49. > :20:50.this history that is so loaded, and still very recent, and sometimes,
:20:51. > :20:52.you are right, perhaps the generation that came after the 70s
:20:53. > :20:55.doesn't remember as vividly, but now will use Ferguson as a reference
:20:56. > :20:58.point, so it is so important what happens in the next few days to take
:20:59. > :21:00.away the military police and not say the National Guard is how we deal
:21:01. > :21:04.with those. African`Americans are 30% of the population and 40% of the
:21:05. > :21:07.prison population, does that mean anything? Family enough I noted that
:21:08. > :21:12.in some parts of the Republican party they have been talking about
:21:13. > :21:16.the problems of over jailing `` firmly enough, if catches remarkable
:21:17. > :21:20.in the course of the last few months `` funnily enough, and the problem
:21:21. > :21:25.of effective criminalisation. Actually, we talk about this is as
:21:26. > :21:29.it is simple, it is not, it is hugely complex, and if you look at
:21:30. > :21:35.the experiences of different groups in America, the biggest fundraising
:21:36. > :21:39.group is Hispanics, of whom one would have thought if the problem
:21:40. > :21:42.was just prejudice they would fit into the same problems over again.
:21:43. > :21:48.It isn't, the problems are insofar as they are of a different kind and
:21:49. > :21:52.have a different history. I think maybe it is time we abandoned some
:21:53. > :21:56.of the simplicities. But we don't have to abandon one simplicity: Said
:21:57. > :22:04.shoot people if you don't need to. Your original point. `` don't shoot
:22:05. > :22:08.people unless you need to. George Bush, President Obama `` George Bush
:22:09. > :22:12.has done it, Obama and Pamela Anderson have refused. The ice
:22:13. > :22:16.bucket challenge. Now a major charity, Macmillan Cancer support,
:22:17. > :22:20.is in hot water for hijacking the stunt from the motor neurone disease
:22:21. > :22:29.Association, so all in all it has created a splash. I can't believe
:22:30. > :22:37.I'm saying this! It is the ultimate selfie, isn't it? Completely. You
:22:38. > :22:42.think it is in a good cause? I think it is just may be showing my age,
:22:43. > :22:47.but good causes, you don't need to be resort to silly tactics to draw
:22:48. > :22:53.attention to them. It is a very, very serious disease, very
:22:54. > :22:57.debilitating, but I think it is just a sign of our age, totally
:22:58. > :23:03.narcissistic culture where we photograph ourselves having dinner,
:23:04. > :23:08.our lunches, the most trivial things. But you do that and you are
:23:09. > :23:13.not trying to raise $31.5 million which this charity has in the last
:23:14. > :23:17.month. I am torn about this, because on the one hand I am sick of seeing
:23:18. > :23:22.people trying to look silly and also wasting water, and I know that
:23:23. > :23:27.sounds silly... LAUGHTER. But there was a protest in a province of China
:23:28. > :23:35.of empty buckets, saying, we have a drought here, and you are splashing
:23:36. > :23:38.around and we have a drought. So on the one hand... So that takes the
:23:39. > :23:42.impact away. Exactly, but this idea of filming yourself then sharing it,
:23:43. > :23:46.but I think it is important because it has raised awareness about the
:23:47. > :23:50.disease and push people to give more. What worries me is we don't
:23:51. > :23:54.know who is donating or not. It would be good if part of the stunt
:23:55. > :23:58.is to say I have donated, this is where you donate, rather than have
:23:59. > :24:02.people watcher, laugh and move on. This is a terrible disease but
:24:03. > :24:06.relatively few sufferers compared to other diseases. The argument as it
:24:07. > :24:10.is taking money from them. I have a terrible admission, until we were in
:24:11. > :24:19.the green room before this I have no idea that was why they were doing
:24:20. > :24:22.it. I can't help wondering whether quite a lot of people are taking the
:24:23. > :24:25.challenge with no notion of where it started where the money is going. In
:24:26. > :24:28.that sense I think this is right. It has nothing to do with raising money
:24:29. > :24:31.for charity and everything to do with being seen on social media. If
:24:32. > :24:36.that rate is ?32 million, fine, but nobody then says, is that the best
:24:37. > :24:42.thing you could do with 32 million pounds? With motor neurone disease
:24:43. > :24:46.others say it is, other charities... Macmillan Cancer
:24:47. > :24:52.support so they are stiffening off this money. Presumably they now have
:24:53. > :24:56.to come up with a bizarre challenge similarly easy to do and mildly
:24:57. > :25:02.humiliating saying you are a good sport etc. People like me I guess
:25:03. > :25:07.will be baffled by that. Jeff McAllister? It is great, who can
:25:08. > :25:11.complain? It is a stunt with a huge following. My daughter did
:25:12. > :25:15.yesterday. I thought the tape was hysterical and I am glad I am not on
:25:16. > :25:20.Facebook so no one can make me do it. But she has to nominate someone
:25:21. > :25:29.else. I have told her it can't be me. LAUGHTER. How does that work?
:25:30. > :25:33.President Obama was not allowed to do it, the State Department said it
:25:34. > :25:37.was demeaning, but George Bush did it. For the president to do it is
:25:38. > :25:42.strange. Government employees don't do it because it uses government
:25:43. > :25:47.notoriety. It is time for us to get our umbrellas because we will have
:25:48. > :25:50.to face the ice and the water now. That is it for Dateline London this
:25:51. > :26:14.week. We are back the same time next week. Goodbye.
:26:15. > :26:20.Hello there. It is of course a holiday weekend in many parts of the
:26:21. > :26:24.UK, and there will be decent, dry, sunny weather around that time is to
:26:25. > :26:27.be enjoyed. Particularly chilly Billy Knight and it wouldn't be
:26:28. > :26:28.complete without the rain especially on