:00:00. > :00:00.I'll be back with a full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now it is
:00:00. > :00:23.programme crow. `` Dateline. Yasmin Alibhai Brown,
:00:24. > :00:29.columnist with The Independent, Mina Al`Oraibi, assistant editor`in`chief
:00:30. > :00:33.of the newspaper, Asharq Al`Awsat, the US lecturer and broadcaster
:00:34. > :00:36.Jeffrey Kofman and from Russia, Even as a ceasefire
:00:37. > :00:43.in eastern Ukraine was agreed on Friday between pro`Russian
:00:44. > :00:46.separatists and the Kiev`based government, NATO was talking tough
:00:47. > :00:50.against President Putin, He's facing a further round of
:00:51. > :00:55.sanctions from the United States and the European Union, and the NATO
:00:56. > :00:58.summit ended with an agreement to station a spearhead force in Poland,
:00:59. > :01:03.ready to respond to any threat to On his way to the summit,
:01:04. > :01:09.President Obama told an audience in Estonia that "borders cannot be
:01:10. > :01:12.withdrawn at the barrel of a gun". Jeffrey Kofman, has
:01:13. > :01:25.the summit made that less likely? No, it feels like we are reliving
:01:26. > :01:29.the Cold War now that we have seen this strike force stationed on the
:01:30. > :01:35.borders of Russia. At this point, we have to see whether the extremists
:01:36. > :01:40.on both sides will abide by the cease`fire. It is by no means clear
:01:41. > :01:43.that this is over. Alexander? I don't think the cease`fire will
:01:44. > :01:48.hold. I have already heard that the Donetsk area was shelled. The
:01:49. > :01:51.problem is that the militia on the ground on both sides do not really
:01:52. > :01:59.listen to either Russia or President Poroshenko. They do their own thing.
:02:00. > :02:04.So I don't see it holding for long. There are other agendas involved.
:02:05. > :02:10.Other countries are being involved. The problem I have with the coverage
:02:11. > :02:17.of Ukraine in the Western media is that it is one`sided, unfortunately.
:02:18. > :02:20.And unfortunately, the general public does not know both sides of
:02:21. > :02:28.the story. It is not as simple as putting the invading Ukraine. It is
:02:29. > :02:33.not as simple as democracy loving protesters in the Kiev suddenly
:02:34. > :02:38.seizing power by themselves. It is a complicated matter. It is a
:02:39. > :02:43.historically compensated issue. It is like in Iraq, when the Americans
:02:44. > :02:46.and the British went in. They basically destroyed the fine balance
:02:47. > :02:51.is that had existed for centuries there. It is the same in Ukraine.
:02:52. > :02:56.Yasmin, one of those balances is the idea that nation states are
:02:57. > :03:01.sacrosanct and if you attack them, there have to be consequences. And
:03:02. > :03:05.yet, isn't NATO bolting the stable door after the horse has gone?
:03:06. > :03:09.Crimea is no longer part of the Ukraine. This is an important point.
:03:10. > :03:14.I don't agree that we are back in the Cold War. The Cold War was a
:03:15. > :03:21.certain thing. We knew the lines, we knew who was who. I know they played
:03:22. > :03:27.all kinds of spy games, but there was a clear shape that we
:03:28. > :03:32.understood. What is happening now around the world is all these
:03:33. > :03:38.subgroups, like you said, not loyal to this Parliament, doing their own
:03:39. > :03:45.thing. They are acting almost beyond the concept of nationhood. This is
:03:46. > :03:48.why it is so troubling. You are right about that. Part of the
:03:49. > :03:53.problem is that we look to the superpowers to solve this, but it is
:03:54. > :03:58.not like you can make one phone call and say, let's put this aside. These
:03:59. > :04:02.actors act independently. Mina, you were at the summit. Did you get the
:04:03. > :04:05.impression that President Obama even wanted to be the man making a phone
:04:06. > :04:09.call and telling people, here is the line and you don't cross? He
:04:10. > :04:14.definitely does not want to draw any more lines. We had that with Syria.
:04:15. > :04:22.He wanted to work within a coalition. That is what gives
:04:23. > :04:26.readers a sense of being united. He was clear in telling the allies from
:04:27. > :04:32.Eastern Europe that we have your back. But I don't think the Cold War
:04:33. > :04:38.was as clean cut as Yasmin says, I just think we knew less than we know
:04:39. > :04:41.now. The speed that news comes out, the amount of propaganda from both
:04:42. > :04:47.sides, it has been incredible. Seeing social media accounts that
:04:48. > :04:51.belong to officials or embassies going tit for tat on little
:04:52. > :04:58.cartoons, you never had this sort of thing. Unfortunately, the Cold War
:04:59. > :05:02.never went away. If the Cold War went away, NATO would have been
:05:03. > :05:09.disbanded, because NATO was created... But the fact that you had
:05:10. > :05:12.the NATO`Russia Council... It doesn't change anything. NATO was
:05:13. > :05:16.created to prevent the Soviet Union from attacking. Once the Soviet
:05:17. > :05:24.Union disappeared, NATO should have disbanded. When NATO started to move
:05:25. > :05:28.eastwards, the Russians felt threatened, because why would they
:05:29. > :05:33.move eastwards? But Putin came to the NATO summit in 2008. There was
:05:34. > :05:36.the idea of the opening of a new chapter, but things have changed
:05:37. > :05:41.since then. There are countries on the border of Russia that do feel
:05:42. > :05:48.vulnerable. There are countries with Russian minorities that think, what
:05:49. > :05:52.happens to us next? I agree that this volcano of information, we did
:05:53. > :05:56.not have in the Cold War. But I grew up in Uganda during the Cold War,
:05:57. > :06:01.and I can tell you that the most illiterate person knew what that
:06:02. > :06:07.meant. And I'm sorry, but it was a good time for Africans. Not
:06:08. > :06:12.necessarily for Europeans. But for some Africans, if the Soviets gave
:06:13. > :06:23.600 university scholarships, the US gave us a thousand. It was a good
:06:24. > :06:27.time! I agree that the militia are not under the direct control of
:06:28. > :06:32.either side, but they are influenced and get funding from either side.
:06:33. > :06:36.And that can feed in. So you could have a political resolution if there
:06:37. > :06:45.is enough pressure on both sides. This point about NATO is key. It is
:06:46. > :06:47.something in the West that we underestimate in the `` in that
:06:48. > :06:53.following the collapse of the Soviet Union, about ten Warsaw Pact
:06:54. > :06:58.countries came to NATO. We saw that as a natural evolution and that they
:06:59. > :07:03.did it willingly and therefore it was OK. Now we are discovering that
:07:04. > :07:09.great offence was taken by a certain segment of Russian society. What a
:07:10. > :07:14.big segment, yes. I don't want to make the parallel to strongly of
:07:15. > :07:17.post`World War I, when the assumption of Versailles was that
:07:18. > :07:21.this would lead to peace and we so miss read it. That is interesting,
:07:22. > :07:28.because people have bounced this word around, which is appeasement.
:07:29. > :07:32.They have said that because of history, we are responding to Putin
:07:33. > :07:39.and saying, we don't want to provoke this guy. Therefore, we say he can
:07:40. > :07:43.have Crimea. Then we say maybe he can have an autonomous region within
:07:44. > :07:48.Ukraine that looks to Moscow and can get finance and support from Moscow.
:07:49. > :07:55.But what specs? If you were in Estonia, can you see why you might
:07:56. > :07:59.say, when might they say Estonia is part of Russia? The Baltic states
:08:00. > :08:04.have played a dubious role in history, to be honest. During World
:08:05. > :08:16.War II, they sided with Nazi Germany. During the Cold War, the
:08:17. > :08:20.distrust between Russia and the West has not gone away. It never went
:08:21. > :08:25.away. When we had the 90s and we opened the doors to the West, we had
:08:26. > :08:32.terrible things happening, American companies going in, Western banks.
:08:33. > :08:36.And we had $20 trillion siphoned out of Russia by the Western banks and
:08:37. > :08:42.the oligarchs that are supposedly big businessmen, Russian oligarchs.
:08:43. > :08:46.What do you expect from people to think about America and the West
:08:47. > :08:52.after we have been basically destroyed economically by them? It
:08:53. > :08:56.was not just by them. The Russians made a lot of money. Yes, but the
:08:57. > :09:01.money was hidden in the West. The Western banks took this money and
:09:02. > :09:08.then started accusing Russia of not doing the reforms properly. The
:09:09. > :09:12.privatisation was conducted. I was a Kremlin adviser, a troubleshooter
:09:13. > :09:17.for the Kremlin security council and the finance ministry. I traced
:09:18. > :09:22.people in the West who stole money. And you also traced them to Moscow,
:09:23. > :09:26.no? No. Most of them just moved away. The banks helped them take the
:09:27. > :09:36.money. The problem is, this distrust stays on. Putin cannot take Crimea
:09:37. > :09:39.if the nation is not behind him. That is why there is a big
:09:40. > :09:46.difference between Putin, Obama and Cameron. He responds to what the
:09:47. > :09:50.people want. They do not. You may mean knock ever Putin, and I don't,
:09:51. > :09:53.but there is an important point Alexander has raised, which is the
:09:54. > :09:59.sheer arrogance of the West after the wall came down. These books
:10:00. > :10:05.about the end of history, we were all going to be frightfully
:10:06. > :10:10.wonderful, big capitalists. Actually, what we have created is a
:10:11. > :10:16.new empire, a kind of economic model empire. I can understand why people
:10:17. > :10:25.who are not really part of it are feeling disgruntled. I think a more
:10:26. > :10:28.pressing question is this issue around Eastern Europe and the
:10:29. > :10:35.countries that rely on Russian gas and oil. How do you walk this line
:10:36. > :10:39.and try to bring Putin in line and find common ground when so many of
:10:40. > :10:44.these countries' economies are so dependent on these pipelines? If we
:10:45. > :10:49.look at history, it was Ronald Reagan who said, you build these
:10:50. > :10:52.pipelines in Europe and Russia will have control over your economies and
:10:53. > :10:58.you will lose your leverage. Lo and behold, that is what we are seeing.
:10:59. > :11:00.After the summit, President Obama's Secretary of State John Kerry was
:11:01. > :11:04.heading to the Middle East to add to what the president called the core
:11:05. > :11:10.coalition of NATO members were linked to take on Islamic state with
:11:11. > :11:13.countries from the Arab world. Mina Al`Oraibi, will he find them? I do
:11:14. > :11:20.not agree with calling them Islamic state. To understand what this group
:11:21. > :11:25.is, we have to define it public. So the idea of calling ISIS or ISIL,
:11:26. > :11:29.they can't even get the acronym right. North Korea calls itself the
:11:30. > :11:36.Democratic Republic of Korea. We don't call it that. So why do we
:11:37. > :11:43.call it the Islamic State? There is a whole thing I don't want to go
:11:44. > :11:49.into. That is one thing. But if you look at this core coalition, the ten
:11:50. > :11:56.countries that got together on the sidelines of the summit, NATO kept
:11:57. > :12:00.saying, this is not our meeting, they don't want to seem like it is
:12:01. > :12:06.the West marching in. Turkey has an important role to play on so many
:12:07. > :12:10.levels, but Turkey has been keeping quite quiet. There are various
:12:11. > :12:14.reasons. First of all, the Turks have 48 hostages that were taken
:12:15. > :12:17.from Mosul from the Turkish consulate. So they have that to
:12:18. > :12:22.think of. They have also played a role in what is going on in Syria
:12:23. > :12:26.and now feel like everything is getting blown back at them. That is
:12:27. > :12:30.an interesting dynamic. Then like you said, there are the Arab
:12:31. > :12:36.partners. King Abdullah of Jordan was at the NATO summit. So now they
:12:37. > :12:41.are trying to see what they can do with Jordan. This is worrying. If
:12:42. > :12:45.you start having armed and military adventure starting in the region
:12:46. > :12:51.without knowing what the endgame is. When they talk about ISIS, they talk
:12:52. > :12:59.about Iraq. Nvidia wants to discuss Syria. You can't just talk about
:13:00. > :13:02.Iraq and not Syria. Whether you have a Sunni minister of finance or a
:13:03. > :13:05.minister of foreign affairs will not make a difference. You have to look
:13:06. > :13:09.at the core problems inside the country, both Syria and Iraq, things
:13:10. > :13:15.like people being detained for years without trial. Their families will
:13:16. > :13:19.feel disgruntled and look at alternatives, horrible and barbaric
:13:20. > :13:22.as they are. So no matter how many discussions they have with
:13:23. > :13:28.coalitions, they have to look at how the problems in Iraq and Syria are
:13:29. > :13:36.solved. But the elephant, there are two elephants in the room. Maybe
:13:37. > :13:43.three. They are Saudi Arabia, Qatar and increasing evidence coming
:13:44. > :13:47.through of Kuwait. These very, very determined and very rich Sunni
:13:48. > :13:54.countries have a particular view of what they want to see the Islamic
:13:55. > :13:59.world becoming. And now they are in a bad place, because there is a
:14:00. > :14:02.wonderful book by Patrick Cockburn which has just been written where he
:14:03. > :14:05.says Saudi Arabia has been funding Wahhabi Islam across the world,
:14:06. > :14:09.including in this country, and nobody has done a thing. But now,
:14:10. > :14:15.apparently the rich families in Saudi Arabia are partly funding
:14:16. > :14:21.whatever you want to call it, I will call it I guess because I can't get
:14:22. > :14:24.into the debates. And the rulers are getting unnerved by that. So there
:14:25. > :14:29.is politics within politics, but no one can deny that so much of what
:14:30. > :14:34.has been happening in Syria and Iraq, you have to lay at the feet of
:14:35. > :14:38.Saudi Arabia. I think that one of the things we are guilty of in the
:14:39. > :14:43.West is not holding these Arab countries to account. There is a
:14:44. > :14:50.kind of delicacy around these issues. We have end nears and Kings
:14:51. > :14:54.and rulers. These are dictatorships, not accountable or transparent.
:14:55. > :14:59.Particularly Kuwait and Qatar, they have helped fund ISIL or whatever
:15:00. > :15:03.you want to call it. Now they realise they have created a monster
:15:04. > :15:07.and Kuwait are pulling back a bit. This will not be solved by a Western
:15:08. > :15:11.coalition. If there is one lesson we have learned from Iraq, it is that
:15:12. > :15:16.NATO or the West cannot solve this. It has to come from within the Arab
:15:17. > :15:22.world. We have at least seen encouraging signs from the UAE this
:15:23. > :15:28.week, trying to release take some minor leadership role. And Iran. But
:15:29. > :15:32.why are we forgetting the most important point? Russia has been
:15:33. > :15:39.warning America, Britain and France, stop funding those extremists in
:15:40. > :15:43.Syria. You will pay the price. They will go to other countries. They
:15:44. > :15:47.will become a danger to you. They have been saying it all along during
:15:48. > :15:52.the Syrian crisis. The Americans, the British comedy French and the
:15:53. > :15:53.others didn't listen. Arms flowing in. There was training and
:15:54. > :16:06.equipment. It emerged from that opposition, it
:16:07. > :16:12.emerged from the wall where they were fighting the extremists on the
:16:13. > :16:20.ground but some of them were so`called Democrats. But the danger
:16:21. > :16:28.was... There were dangerous elements that are forgetting that equipment.
:16:29. > :16:30.It is unfair that if certain things are not reported in the Western
:16:31. > :16:45.media that we take for granted that they don't exist. The UN actually
:16:46. > :16:48.named names, for individuals `` four individuals who were then taken out
:16:49. > :16:56.in terms of having their funding cut or being jailed. They think it is
:16:57. > :17:05.wrong to start going down this sectarian line. They have to take on
:17:06. > :17:17.responsible to as if it is their fault. There are so many nuances. It
:17:18. > :17:21.is a question of these being Islamic nations, we cannot expect the West
:17:22. > :17:31.to come in and say, don't worry, we will solve it. So many of these
:17:32. > :17:36.problems started because the West came in in the first place, they
:17:37. > :17:39.cannot walk away. It is a mix. The whole project started in the 19th
:17:40. > :17:54.century. The oil and money made it more possible. You cannot plug is on
:17:55. > :17:58.four or five families. There are more people within Iraq as a whole
:17:59. > :18:05.that are being killed for a particular sect but everyone says to
:18:06. > :18:09.look at minorities. They are all being attacked so the problem is,
:18:10. > :18:12.when you go down the sectarian narrative, it feeds right into what
:18:13. > :18:33.extremists on both sides, weather the sunny militias or weather they
:18:34. > :18:38.are ISIL `` be Sunni militia. Do you think that President Putin will be
:18:39. > :18:47.more willing to see some action against ISIS. Russia were warning
:18:48. > :18:53.the West that these elements were penetrating Russia and were going to
:18:54. > :18:57.penetrate the West and nobody was listening. They were blaming the
:18:58. > :19:05.Russians for taking on the Chechen thanks. Now they are listening. They
:19:06. > :19:10.are but without Russia's involvement, there will be no
:19:11. > :19:19.resolution to this crisis. It has influence in Iran and Syria. It is a
:19:20. > :19:25.crucial player. For NATO to say they will attack you or have this
:19:26. > :19:31.reaction force or whatever. It is rubbish. They should have sat down
:19:32. > :19:39.and said to the Russians, we have a problem, they are moving into our
:19:40. > :19:44.territory with British passports, they can attack targets. They are
:19:45. > :19:49.already here. I have to take you up on this. What the Russians were
:19:50. > :19:58.doing to Chechens was unspeakable... No, I disagree. Of
:19:59. > :20:04.course you do. And what Russian... You are all hacks who are writing
:20:05. > :20:10.rubbish. Let her make her point. You are talking rubbish. What the
:20:11. > :20:15.Russians were doing two Chechen women and children was unacceptable.
:20:16. > :20:20.Can you let me speak? Sorry, this is not a Russian parliament. This is a
:20:21. > :20:24.BBC programme. I have the right to speak. I have to speak. This is not
:20:25. > :20:32.your parliament, this is a programme. I have to speak. What
:20:33. > :20:38.Russia did when the Syrian problem was solvable was unforgivable, so do
:20:39. > :20:45.not make excuses for Russia. You scuppered all of the UN attempts.
:20:46. > :20:49.Tell me that was propaganda, it is all propaganda. Of course not. This
:20:50. > :20:54.is your own mindset. They are killing innocent civilians in
:20:55. > :21:00.Ukraine. Liberal propaganda. You're one of the examples of a liberal.
:21:01. > :21:09.You are a feminist liberal. And you hate Russia. I am, I am glad I am
:21:10. > :21:13.not a mouthpiece like you. Nobody expects the liberal view any more.
:21:14. > :21:19.There is a crisis into a liberal society. I am curious, baffled by
:21:20. > :21:22.this conversation. I use an Russian army, I know we're going back to
:21:23. > :21:28.where we began but are you saying that the Russians had not intervened
:21:29. > :21:35.in Ukraine? There are volunteers. There are no regular troops. If you
:21:36. > :21:38.listen to the UN observers on the border, there are no regular troops
:21:39. > :21:56.in Ukraine. They are volunteers. Of course. But with Russian arms. Just
:21:57. > :22:05.like in Iraq with ISIS, there are British and French fighters there.
:22:06. > :22:10.In Ukraine, there are American and Swiss volunteers. We are talking
:22:11. > :22:12.about people travelling out of their comfort zones...
:22:13. > :22:14.Whilst John Kerry is off to the Gulf,
:22:15. > :22:17.President Obama made a much shorter trip from Wales to Stonehenge,
:22:18. > :22:19.the ancient ring of standing stones in southern England.
:22:20. > :22:21.He was, he said, ticking it off his bucket list.
:22:22. > :22:23.Yasmin, where would you send a world leader
:22:24. > :22:27.in search of some post`summit inspiration?
:22:28. > :22:36.This very aisle and an energetic world leader needs to get home, take
:22:37. > :22:39.some vitamins, lots of vitamins and get back to the job. He cannot be
:22:40. > :22:46.wandering around old stones and praying for some pagan gods. It is
:22:47. > :22:50.not done. Stonehenge is marvellous and it is worth seeing. It is on the
:22:51. > :22:54.bucket list but what is most disconcerting is that the word that
:22:55. > :23:03.Obama chose to describe this incredible monument is cool. Maybe
:23:04. > :23:09.in the vernacular of today, you would call it awesome. What to call
:23:10. > :23:13.it cool is... There is something so cloying about that that it makes you
:23:14. > :23:22.cringe. It is like his constant use of folks. He needs to stop using
:23:23. > :23:30.that. "We torched `` we tortured some folks." He is tried be a man of
:23:31. > :23:37.the people. He went there for less than an hour. The fact that he was
:23:38. > :23:42.so well behaved and did not play any golf while being on a golf course,
:23:43. > :23:51.Leone that trip. It is a good place to go. Anywhere else? London is so
:23:52. > :23:55.great and full of great things, he went out summer. I would send him to
:23:56. > :24:00.Kew Gardens because that is one of my favourite spots. It is not
:24:01. > :24:09.exactly in Central London but it is great was what would get out of it?
:24:10. > :24:17.He would realise how marvellous the world is with the species not
:24:18. > :24:27.killing each other. Let him stand in the queue! It is a long queue. Which
:24:28. > :24:33.waxwork would you think would be most is racial question the one of
:24:34. > :24:38.himself! There are a lot of former American President is there, maybe
:24:39. > :24:44.Truman, given the way the world is going. Obama is trying to grasp away
:24:45. > :24:48.of writing history as the clock ticks down. For so many of his
:24:49. > :24:54.supporters, what we have seen is a great disappointment. There were so
:24:55. > :24:58.much hope and his ability to `` his inability to deliver, part of which
:24:59. > :25:04.is down to the paralysis of the American system. Is there anywhere
:25:05. > :25:07.you would send him? Somewhere quiet. Some beautiful mountaintop where he
:25:08. > :25:13.could have some time on his own. As President, you don't get time to
:25:14. > :25:17.reflect and breathe the air. He could have prayed with Cameron in
:25:18. > :25:25.some small church in Wales. Do you remember Bush and Blair? Oh, please!
:25:26. > :25:30.You said he should be back working. Being charitable, where would you
:25:31. > :25:36.like him to be? I meant that. I have never felt the world was so
:25:37. > :25:42.dangerous all at the same time. Not 911, none of that time. As a Shia
:25:43. > :25:47.Muslim, as all sorts of things, we are in a bad place. I am sorry,
:25:48. > :25:56.until retirement, back on the job. A sober end. Thank you all for joining
:25:57. > :25:58.us on Dateline. The time has gone quickly.
:25:59. > :26:01.That's it for Dateline London, Gavin Esler will be back next week.
:26:02. > :26:08.You can also comment on the programme on Twitter.
:26:09. > :26:13.From all of us, have a good week. Goodbye.