:00:31. > :00:32.Hello and welcome to Dateline Scotland from the Scottish
:00:33. > :00:35.We're devoting this weekend's programme to the implications
:00:36. > :00:37.of this week's vote on Scottish independence ` the implications
:00:38. > :00:40.for Scotland, for the rest of the United Kingdom, and for
:00:41. > :00:49.Kevin McKenna from the Observer ` Kevin voted YES in the referendum.
:00:50. > :00:51.Catherine MacLeod of the Herald newspaper `
:00:52. > :00:58.Catherine used to work for Alistair Darling who led the No campaign.
:00:59. > :01:01.Celia Maza de Pablo of Spain's La Razonand Ian Martin
:01:02. > :01:20.Good to see you. Will this result be seen as What David Cameron said was
:01:21. > :01:30.the settled will of the Scottish people? I think he is being
:01:31. > :01:41.optimistic. The 45% vote in favour of Yes, the fact that 1.3 million
:01:42. > :01:50.people voted vot, and we believe that 37% of Labour voter voted Yes.
:01:51. > :02:03.The issue of these devolved powers is already unravelling. The West
:02:04. > :02:12.Lothian Question... What Scottish MPs can vote for in Westminster? All
:02:13. > :02:26.that together says this is anything but the settled will. Some more used
:02:27. > :02:32.to go. `` years to go. The SN will probably be ripped on. If that
:02:33. > :02:36.extends to the leadership, although feeble fume about, together, it
:02:37. > :02:44.could be a mandate for another referendum. Gordon Brown has been
:02:45. > :02:55.saying, we have got to get on with this. He is thinking, we could have
:02:56. > :03:08.a new British Government, it could change politics completely? I think
:03:09. > :03:11.it depends on what they do next. I think what we saw in Scotland was
:03:12. > :03:18.that people feel very disenfranchised from the political
:03:19. > :03:22.process. Many of these 1.6 million people who don't thought Yes were
:03:23. > :03:32.voting for a better government. As the parties respond, throughout the
:03:33. > :03:38.United Kingdom, I think we will possibly see the, otherwise some
:03:39. > :03:43.unrest in Scotland. 55 miles away from Westminster fume just as it
:03:44. > :03:51.were needed as they do in Scotland. It is up to them to listen.
:03:52. > :03:58.Coded using this will go down in the rest of the UK, because David
:03:59. > :04:02.Cameron has signed up to the vowel, the promise to move ahead with
:04:03. > :04:07.things, but he has also said we have got to change things in England. ``
:04:08. > :04:13.how do you think this will go down. He has people breathing down his
:04:14. > :04:19.neck. I think devolution is coming. I think that's certain. I think
:04:20. > :04:22.Kevin is wrong. The Nationalists and Alex Salmond and his friends are
:04:23. > :04:26.very skilled at trying to turn what is a defeat into a victory, to try
:04:27. > :04:32.and push this instantly onto the question of more powers. Alex
:04:33. > :04:36.Salmond has wanted this question about Scottish independence put to
:04:37. > :04:39.the Scottish people the decades. He presumed dead has always said that
:04:40. > :04:47.Scotland would grab its freedom, its liberation. `` for decades. There
:04:48. > :04:58.was a strong, clear vote, 55 against 45. `` as he has always said. People
:04:59. > :05:03.shouldn't now allow the Nationalists to miss make and rewrite history.
:05:04. > :05:08.More powers. What is clear is that they are coming. I'm sceptical that
:05:09. > :05:10.front. I was a sceptic about devolution in the first place. I
:05:11. > :05:17.thought it would lead to a referendum. But David Cameron is
:05:18. > :05:21.very clear, and I expect will be more in the Devo Max camp. The
:05:22. > :05:27.ultimate amount you could possibly give while retaining UK structures.
:05:28. > :05:32.Yes. I think he and George Osborne will be, as well. The Lib Dems are
:05:33. > :05:35.in coalition and will be pushing in that direction. The party is
:05:36. > :05:40.isolated on both sides of the border. It's in real trouble, the
:05:41. > :05:46.Labour Party. We will come to that. Celia Maza, you said your newspaper
:05:47. > :05:49.readers in Spain have had huge appetite for this. How much have you
:05:50. > :05:54.been writing and how much is the paper been carrying? People have
:05:55. > :06:01.been crazy about this. They became interested. There has been talk of
:06:02. > :06:10.holding a referendum in November for Catalonia. They see this as an
:06:11. > :06:15.example. They don't think the Catalonian government will win with
:06:16. > :06:23.what is proposed. These days, you can find hundreds of different media
:06:24. > :06:27.coming from Spain. Every newspaper have around ten pages per day,
:06:28. > :06:34.because it is so interesting. Ten pages a day? That is huge. Yes, ten
:06:35. > :06:41.pages of interviews. What has happened is important. The Scottish
:06:42. > :06:46.referendum will be seen as an example. It is bad news for the
:06:47. > :06:49.Catalonian government. In terms of the SNP, Alex Salmond has gone, one
:06:50. > :06:55.of the biggest figures in politics in Western Europe, everybody would
:06:56. > :06:58.generally agree with that. But what is the point of a national party
:06:59. > :07:04.when the national question, at least at the ballot box, does appear to be
:07:05. > :07:10.settled at the ballot box? I had a quick phone around to my nationalist
:07:11. > :07:15.friends in the last 48 hours. It's a good question. But I think the
:07:16. > :07:21.question is more pertinent if there had been a yes vote. There are
:07:22. > :07:30.people I know who become disenchanted with Labour. They have
:07:31. > :07:34.come late to the SNP, well, at least, round to voting yes. They
:07:35. > :07:40.feel distinctly uncomfortable voting for a party that included the word
:07:41. > :07:45.nationalist in its title in an independent Scotland. I think there
:07:46. > :07:50.was also some wisdom within the party, certainly some initial chat
:07:51. > :07:55.about even changing the name of the party if it had been a yes vote to
:07:56. > :08:04.something like the Scottish Democrats. That itself could have
:08:05. > :08:09.led to something. Over the past five years, the history of the SNP has
:08:10. > :08:15.been one of civil war, infighting, allsorts of different factions. Left
:08:16. > :08:22.and right is one simply the case in. It was part of Alex Salmond's
:08:23. > :08:26.achievement that he unified them. There was a glimpse at the chalice,
:08:27. > :08:36.the holy grail of independence just coming over the horizon. I suspected
:08:37. > :08:41.there might be a bit of turbulence in the waters. What do the rest of
:08:42. > :08:44.you make of it? There is turbulence everywhere. Ed Miliband has huge
:08:45. > :08:58.challenges. David Cameron has the UK breathing down its `` his neck.
:08:59. > :09:02.If... We have heard a lot from Nicola Sturgeon, presenting this
:09:03. > :09:07.vision of a new Scotland, a socially just Scotland, a Scotland with more
:09:08. > :09:11.people equal, they now have a chance to prove it. Perhaps they can get on
:09:12. > :09:16.with it. Perhaps they can sort out the Labour Party and help them in
:09:17. > :09:21.their quest. They've tried very hard to get the labour support into the
:09:22. > :09:24.party. Nationalism would always transcend and be more important than
:09:25. > :09:30.anything else, and there is a problem. What is the point of the
:09:31. > :09:34.SNP, why don't they get behind the other parties who are actually going
:09:35. > :09:40.to be in power? The dilemma for the Labour Party, in England and
:09:41. > :09:48.Scotland, the Labour Party is the party of devolution, they introduced
:09:49. > :09:52.it in 1970s, trying to kill Scotland nationalism dead. It now a massive
:09:53. > :10:03.problem. It doesn't want to agreed to Devo Max `` agree. It would be a
:10:04. > :10:12.move to stopping this power. And most voters won't like it. One of
:10:13. > :10:15.the leading intellectuals, Phillip blond, has suggested that you get
:10:16. > :10:18.around some of these questions if you devolve power to big English
:10:19. > :10:24.cities. If they have the powers that would be a good thing anyway. It
:10:25. > :10:29.doesn't work for a simple reason. I think it will happen anyway. English
:10:30. > :10:32.cities will get powers similar to what London has got, Manchester,
:10:33. > :10:38.Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, and the rest of it, but some things will be
:10:39. > :10:43.effectively English laws. On divorce, justice, English health and
:10:44. > :10:47.education. On all those areas, it isn't conceivable that England,
:10:48. > :10:52.English voters, will allow the health system and legislation to be
:10:53. > :10:56.subdivided into regions. There will have to be somewhere where it is
:10:57. > :11:01.voted on. So much has changed in the last couple of weeks. English voters
:11:02. > :11:07.will take it as read that some sort of protocol has to be established,
:11:08. > :11:13.and some new way of working in the `` working the UK so everybody gets
:11:14. > :11:22.what they want and they have their say. This is important. Scotland has
:11:23. > :11:31.said no to independence, but this is known for change. But there will be
:11:32. > :11:35.change. `` no for change. This reminds me so much of the Spanish
:11:36. > :11:43.situation. The fact that the government is going to deal with
:11:44. > :11:50.this Devo Max, it is going to be a big scenario to see how the
:11:51. > :11:58.government in Spain can deal with the problems we have in Spain. The
:11:59. > :12:09.Catalan situation is the only problem for the government of Spain.
:12:10. > :12:13.If we see it here in the UK, that Scotland is going to have more
:12:14. > :12:20.devolution powers, maybe in the future, if the Catalans have more
:12:21. > :12:36.devolution, with what is going on in the Basque country, the Pelissier
:12:37. > :12:40.and `` Galicians etc. That is interesting. Because we think of our
:12:41. > :12:44.UK as unique. But different parts of Spain have been together the many
:12:45. > :12:48.years, and that's very important. One thing that has come up
:12:49. > :12:54.constantly, and I suspect it is reflected in Spain, in local areas
:12:55. > :12:58.like Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, if things go right they say
:12:59. > :13:01.they are doing it themselves, if things go wrong they blame it on the
:13:02. > :13:07.bad people in Westminster. There is something in that with the
:13:08. > :13:10.disenchantment of Westminster. Is that the same feeling in Spain that
:13:11. > :13:16.Madrid doesn't understand the problems? Yes. Exactly. The Catalan
:13:17. > :13:21.government want independence. If they don't have it in the future, of
:13:22. > :13:28.course they are going to ask for more powers. The problem is that now
:13:29. > :13:32.the Catalan government is in the spotlight. But what happens if they
:13:33. > :13:45.have more powers? The Basque country is going to be the next. And then
:13:46. > :13:51.maybe the Galician government. In Pelissier it is the same party as
:13:52. > :13:59.the one in government. `` Galicia. But it is not just focused in
:14:00. > :14:11.Catalunya. The Conservatives are offering the idea Rob more
:14:12. > :14:17.responsibility `` of more. One of the negative aspects of nationalism
:14:18. > :14:21.over the years, not just nationalism actually, it might just be a
:14:22. > :14:25.Scottish trait, is if things go wrong we blame Westminster. One
:14:26. > :14:29.example we've had of that recently has been the mushrooming of food
:14:30. > :14:37.banks. Especially in the West of Scotland, but all over. Many of the
:14:38. > :14:40.people using these in an affluent country, we ought to be asking
:14:41. > :14:46.questions as to why that's happening. But to say that has come
:14:47. > :14:50.about because of Westminster big government, everybody saying the
:14:51. > :14:55.Tories are wrong, since 1999 Scotland has had sufficient devolve
:14:56. > :14:58.powers to do something about the root causes as to why people are
:14:59. > :15:07.turning to food banks in these numbers. It isn't Scotland being
:15:08. > :15:12.picked on, the food banks in Liverpool, the West Country. But
:15:13. > :15:18.this is a societal problem. Which leads me on to something else. There
:15:19. > :15:26.is a division in Scotland. It has been shown by the result of the
:15:27. > :15:31.referendum. The four counties who voted yes, they display the worst
:15:32. > :15:41.instances of social deprivation. Glass go, Dundee, etc. `` Glasgow.
:15:42. > :15:44.Whether it is a good narrative, or a `1, that narrative is going to
:15:45. > :15:54.underpin Scottish politics over the next few years. `` or a negative
:15:55. > :16:00.narrative. Glasgow is the biggest local authority with the most
:16:01. > :16:09.schools `` social problems. What there was a smaller turnout. `` but
:16:10. > :16:13.there was a smaller turnout. This will be a narrative apart from what
:16:14. > :16:18.happens in Westminster. And it's a major problem for the Labour Party.
:16:19. > :16:22.If those figures are correct, 37% of Labour voters voting yes, then that
:16:23. > :16:28.spells a massive problem for Labour in Scotland. And also possibly for
:16:29. > :16:36.the 41 Labour MPs. Ed Miliband is relying on them. And they said they
:16:37. > :16:40.should not vote on the issues. I thought everybody was focused on
:16:41. > :16:46.young voters, and Glasgow voting yes, but look at the enormous
:16:47. > :16:51.numbers in, for want of a better word, Middle Scotland who turned up.
:16:52. > :16:58.Aberdeenshire, Edinburgh, absolutely massive numbers in favour of the
:16:59. > :17:01.union. I was on one of the many campaign trips, and I was getting
:17:02. > :17:07.depressed about the question of divided Scotland. Would Scotland
:17:08. > :17:10.emerge from this? People saying that it would be a really bad thing
:17:11. > :17:17.because it would be a divided country. Somebody told me to
:17:18. > :17:33.remember that Scotland was reunited in the 1850s. After all of the inn
:17:34. > :17:37.clan fighting. `` in`clan fighting. There are some people who are very
:17:38. > :17:41.poor and alienated from society. I think it's the same in England. I
:17:42. > :17:45.don't know what you think there can't be more devolution in England
:17:46. > :17:52.with all of the different cities. If 5 million people cannot look after
:17:53. > :17:55.their own affairs, the English government could default more powers
:17:56. > :18:01.to local areas in England, and that is the only way. We've seen it in
:18:02. > :18:05.Scotland. 90% of the population in some places going out to vote
:18:06. > :18:10.because it was an issue on which people cared about. There is no
:18:11. > :18:14.difference between the parties, people said, it is now up to the
:18:15. > :18:25.politicians to show that there is a difference but it has got to be more
:18:26. > :18:34.local than it is at the moment. I think that can and will happen. But
:18:35. > :18:39.even once that is done, lows will affect England. England as the
:18:40. > :18:45.country. It cannot be, for the convenience of the Labour Party,
:18:46. > :18:54.dismembered. Just because it poses some different and difficult
:18:55. > :18:59.questions. I think it could be about foreign affairs, defence, that we
:19:00. > :19:07.need a British Government. But other things could be devolved. The
:19:08. > :19:10.overall funding for hill fog, how much we would be prepared to put
:19:11. > :19:27.into it, that is something that does affect every part. They have been
:19:28. > :19:31.able to say that they had local control, but they do not set the
:19:32. > :19:39.overall budget? The Chancellor of the Exchequer can set it. Somebody
:19:40. > :19:48.weathering and Plymouth, Newcastle, they are not going to accept, for
:19:49. > :19:56.one second, the idea that the health service would be fragmented. Some
:19:57. > :20:04.were, but an English MP has to vote on it. My question is that the
:20:05. > :20:10.timing, the taming that we have at the moment, it is so important. The
:20:11. > :20:25.general election any few months. David Cameron may be trying to
:20:26. > :20:38.lessen West to the MPs in England. `` listen less. Obviously, he has to
:20:39. > :20:45.defend the party. We have had this vow from the parties, but now it
:20:46. > :20:57.competitive election? The taming is so important. Sorry to go back to
:20:58. > :21:04.the Spanish situation... But Catalunia is different. The main
:21:05. > :21:13.government in Spain are not allowing them to hold a referendum. I think
:21:14. > :21:23.it is very important to see, the Catalan government would like to
:21:24. > :21:34.hold a referendum, and know in real legal terms. Three main questions.
:21:35. > :21:39.The Catalan government has no absolute majority. The second one,
:21:40. > :21:53.it is so important, the party of the Catalan is divided, equal listen. ``
:21:54. > :21:57.a coalition. And they say that they have the right to hold referendums
:21:58. > :22:09.about Catalan edges. But it is about Spain. I want to talk about some
:22:10. > :22:13.other things. The opinion poll switch changed everything. Do we
:22:14. > :22:21.have opinion polls changing the course of elections? If we do not
:22:22. > :22:32.have the opinion polls, you would not have possibly had David
:22:33. > :22:39.Cameron,". `` Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband coming up? Italy can fight
:22:40. > :22:43.the campaign and days the British establishment the equivalent of a
:22:44. > :22:52.heart attack. People should not run away. I think if you had held it
:22:53. > :22:58.together, the three different parties, I think that the union was
:22:59. > :23:07.going to win. But one of these opinion polls, it gives them the
:23:08. > :23:17.lead, it transformed the last ten days. David Cameron flew. Gordon
:23:18. > :23:25.Brown stepped up. Some people said to me, why did it take David Cameron
:23:26. > :23:32.so long? I am not so sure. I am not sure that made much difference. If
:23:33. > :23:45.you look at the figures of the elderly... More than 70% voted no. I
:23:46. > :23:50.was hearing was due, friends, family, people were very skilled
:23:51. > :24:02.about pensions. `` was hearing last year. Long before the three amigos
:24:03. > :24:11.coming over the border. I am sure it had an electrifying impact. But for
:24:12. > :24:21.every person, they may have thought it was oppresive, it was not what
:24:22. > :24:29.the price of the Daily Record in which it was printed... It may have
:24:30. > :24:34.had a negative impact. They said that nothing changed. The
:24:35. > :24:42.Westminster establishment, and the fact, they have woken up to the
:24:43. > :24:45.fact, but generally, I think Ed Miliband and David Cameron should
:24:46. > :24:54.have been in Scotland much more often. David Cameron as the Prime
:24:55. > :24:57.Minister of the United Kingdom. The consequences for all the parties,
:24:58. > :25:04.that is very important. One Labour, I think Ed Miliband is one of the
:25:05. > :25:13.biggest losers. It is going to be interesting to see the reaction.
:25:14. > :25:23.That is happening. David Cameron is often criticised, but here's the
:25:24. > :25:37.great escape artist. `` he is a. Done it again. I think he emerges in
:25:38. > :25:46.a strong position. Labour weakened. The other person who should not be
:25:47. > :25:55.forgotten as Alex Salmond. One of the giants of his age. If you would
:25:56. > :26:01.add real the Nationalists were, the Labour establishment was prepared to
:26:02. > :26:09.defend evolution. `` look at where the nationalists were. That's it for
:26:10. > :26:14.this special edition of Dateline Scotland from Edinburgh. We'll be
:26:15. > :26:17.back again next week at the same time, and you can comment on the
:26:18. > :26:23.programme on Twitter ` @GavinEsler, using #Dateline. Goodbye.