:00:25. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:27. > :00:29.Syria's peace talks begin - without the Syrian government or
:00:30. > :00:32.opposition, but with some optimistic noises from the United States.
:00:33. > :00:35.Plus - is Angela Merkel to blame for Europe's migration mess?
:00:36. > :00:37.That's what many in Germany now think.
:00:38. > :00:42.Greg Katz of Associated Press, David Aaronovitch of the Times,
:00:43. > :00:45.Stephanie Bolzen of Die Welt, and Rachel Shabi who is a writer
:00:46. > :00:52.It was once called the "arc of instability",
:00:53. > :00:55.from North Africa through the Middle East to Afghanistan.
:00:56. > :00:59.And it still dominates the news, roiling European politics through
:01:00. > :01:11.migration, blighting Angela Merkel's political leadership, spilling over
:01:12. > :01:13.into Turkey, with an election this weekend, exasperating
:01:14. > :01:14.British politicians who want answers about
:01:15. > :01:17.the road to war in Iraq 12 years ago, and now
:01:18. > :01:20.leading the United States to send 50 special forces advisers to Syria.
:01:21. > :01:23.First, do we see any hope that talks on Syria can achieve much?
:01:24. > :01:27.At least they are talking, I suppose. It would be awed, I
:01:28. > :01:35.suppose, if the Americans said they had talks and there is no hope -- it
:01:36. > :01:39.would be odd. But the issue is also very dramatic, over whether or not
:01:40. > :01:45.there is a future that can be contemplated without Bashar
:01:46. > :01:47.al-Assad. If the Russians and the Iranians, who are very important
:01:48. > :01:54.actors in this, decide they're actually could be a future without
:01:55. > :01:57.Assad, but in some sense that has to be tapered, in that case there may
:01:58. > :02:02.be some possibility something could happen at these peace talks, but if
:02:03. > :02:06.not... At least the people pulling the strings, Iran and Saudi Arabia,
:02:07. > :02:12.at least they are there. Yes, you have to admit, at least they are
:02:13. > :02:18.there! Is a bit of sunshine. What about you, Rachel, do you see any
:02:19. > :02:22.hope? Not at all, and a little bit. Not at all because there are no
:02:23. > :02:27.Syrians at the table which is a big problem and speaks volumes about the
:02:28. > :02:31.conflict in itself. The war now being a proxy war using Syrian blood
:02:32. > :02:36.but involving many other countries. Also I don't really know why there
:02:37. > :02:41.needs to be 17 nations plus the EU at those discussions. I think that
:02:42. > :02:45.is probably a few too many. There are really only five key players who
:02:46. > :02:50.need to be there to focus it, but maybe a little hope in the sense
:02:51. > :02:56.that various factors have made it more likely and made people have
:02:57. > :03:03.more incentive, so the Russian intervention in Syria means they now
:03:04. > :03:07.need a get out, and it has also realigned things geopolitically in a
:03:08. > :03:11.way that makes an engagement more likely. The fact of the Iranians
:03:12. > :03:14.have been brought to the negotiations table is hugely
:03:15. > :03:18.significant and can obviously, you know, they should always have been
:03:19. > :03:21.at that table and the fact they are now joining it I think is
:03:22. > :03:26.significant. And the fact that all the parties are very concerned about
:03:27. > :03:32.Islamic State as well as the migration crisis. These are all
:03:33. > :03:36.factors that could make, could create more incentive. I suppose it
:03:37. > :03:41.does seem odd the Syrians are not there but then you would have to see
:03:42. > :03:46.which Syrians and who is acceptable to negotiate on behalf of whom which
:03:47. > :03:51.goes into a whole other area of difficulty the Americans would
:03:52. > :03:55.rather avoid for now. Speaking about an alternative to Assad, there is no
:03:56. > :03:58.alternative. There is not even a name you could really put on the
:03:59. > :04:01.state and at the same thing I think it is important to see what is
:04:02. > :04:06.happening militarily on the ground. Even though there are only 50 or so
:04:07. > :04:12.special forces advisers at the same time Obama is also sending more
:04:13. > :04:18.warplanes to the Turkish airbase and there will be far more communication
:04:19. > :04:22.with forces in Syria, so it is a far stronger dynamic militarily on the
:04:23. > :04:27.ground now in Syria. These 50 advisers, that's very interesting,
:04:28. > :04:31.isn't it? Firstly there is the potential for Mission Creep. We need
:04:32. > :04:34.500 next week because it is not quite going right and then there is
:04:35. > :04:37.the potential for things to go wrong. The absolute nightmare would
:04:38. > :04:45.be Russians killing Americans in Syria. I had not even contemplated
:04:46. > :04:50.that one, but as people will remember Vietnam so clearly, mission
:04:51. > :04:55.creep is what we think of. Robert was in London this weeks beating
:04:56. > :05:01.about Lyndon Johnson. The great historian? Yes. We all Johnson, if
:05:02. > :05:06.we just send this many special advisers, etc, etc, we will conflict
:05:07. > :05:10.something, and it was a disaster. I do not sense that happening and
:05:11. > :05:14.sends Obama has two good in memory to let that happen, but this is a
:05:15. > :05:18.very significant step. This is not something they would do lightly. It
:05:19. > :05:22.goes against everything Obama wanted to a composite by the end of his
:05:23. > :05:27.presidency in terms of getting American boot out of the area but I
:05:28. > :05:32.do think this is part of his overall hope, dream, his sliver of hope that
:05:33. > :05:38.with the changing situation on the ground there may be some
:05:39. > :05:41.reconciliation, some pacification. But there are so many bits do this.
:05:42. > :05:47.We will move on to Turkey properly in a moment but if these American
:05:48. > :05:49.advisers are a advising the Kurds, they are advising the Turkish
:05:50. > :05:58.government that need to have been bombing -- to this. Now, locations,
:05:59. > :06:02.to put it mildly. None of this make any sense if you look at it through
:06:03. > :06:10.the strategic situation ten years were -- more complications, to put
:06:11. > :06:18.it mail -- mildly. Turkey going to the polls this weekend, one of the
:06:19. > :06:25.huge stories. This is the place where, for so many Syrians, a front
:06:26. > :06:29.line state? Were so many were already. Speaking about predictable
:06:30. > :06:34.crises, we speak about the Syrian refugee problem as if somehow or
:06:35. > :06:36.other it emerged out of nowhere. It emerged out of something like 4
:06:37. > :06:41.million people displaced into outside countries, not even counting
:06:42. > :06:46.the ones displaced within Syria incidentally. We are creating more
:06:47. > :06:50.refugees rather the Russians are creating more, by bombing some of
:06:51. > :06:53.the rebel areas. These reports of people moving out of these areas the
:06:54. > :06:57.Russians are bombing, a kind of irony to speak about how the
:06:58. > :07:02.Russians now, having got themselves in, they have to get themselves out.
:07:03. > :07:06.It is not really surprising they took that long to get in. There was
:07:07. > :07:10.no way they were not going to get involved and we have known that for
:07:11. > :07:14.years. To not see it coming is really foolish. There are all kinds
:07:15. > :07:21.of things we have not seen coming and one of the biggest was that you
:07:22. > :07:24.would end up, with 4.5 million people displaced in Syria, on the
:07:25. > :07:28.edge of the Mediterranean, that they would somehow stop in camps in
:07:29. > :07:32.Turkey, Lebanon on and Jordan and not go anywhere else. I know we will
:07:33. > :07:35.come to that in a minute but it is something people are inclined to
:07:36. > :07:42.blame Angela Merkel four, possibly the one person with the least to do
:07:43. > :07:48.with it. Lets get onto that. In Germany, things have changed the
:07:49. > :07:52.people. She could beforehand do no and now this. This was predictable
:07:53. > :07:56.from the beginning. We are almost in November and just two months ago
:07:57. > :08:02.there were thousands of people welcoming refugees at the Munich
:08:03. > :08:06.station. In one day, the numbers... Because of the numbers, it was
:08:07. > :08:12.something overwhelming for the authorities. You can have so much as
:08:13. > :08:17.you want but the structures simply could not cope. Merkel is now being
:08:18. > :08:21.blamed outside and inside Germany for having triggered a pool factor
:08:22. > :08:26.by seeing two things, which was, firstly, there would be no limit for
:08:27. > :08:31.asylum seekers, and the second was that she said she would not send
:08:32. > :08:36.back refugees according to EU regulations -- pull factor. I will
:08:37. > :08:41.not send them back, she said, because she could not do this for
:08:42. > :08:45.humanitarian reasons. As you say, to say she is to blame for what is
:08:46. > :08:52.happening in Europe, it is actually very unfair and is completely... But
:08:53. > :08:59.how stable is the Merkel government now? I think it is still pretty
:09:00. > :09:04.stable. There is the prime minister of Bavaria, who is known to be quite
:09:05. > :09:09.outspoken because that is a very Bavarian thing. You are being very
:09:10. > :09:17.polite there, you are from the north! Yes, I can say that. To make
:09:18. > :09:27.this more clear because it is a bit, the Christian Democrats in
:09:28. > :09:32.Germany, the CSU is a local party and they are always in a coalition
:09:33. > :09:39.with Merkel and the government coalition, but the ground coalition
:09:40. > :09:43.is of the SPD, so it is a very broad picture where Merkel is squeezed
:09:44. > :09:50.between the SPD, who are far more welcoming, let's say, to the
:09:51. > :09:53.refugees, and the CSU who are far more conservative whose principles
:09:54. > :09:56.are stability, and at the same time geographically the Bavarians are
:09:57. > :09:59.taking the most amount of refugees because they are coming from
:10:00. > :10:04.Austria, so this is why it is a very tense situation for the government.
:10:05. > :10:10.This blaming Merkel thing, people are blaming her partly because she
:10:11. > :10:12.is the leading light in Europe, she said what she said, some people
:10:13. > :10:16.think she was wrong to say it, and secondly because the European Union
:10:17. > :10:20.does not have its act together. Exactly. She is being blamed for
:10:21. > :10:23.doing the right thing and that is because other countries are not
:10:24. > :10:28.doing the right thing. If the dead, it would not put so much pressure on
:10:29. > :10:32.Germany so, you know, -- if they did. It seems paradoxical and
:10:33. > :10:36.nonsense. Of course it will take time. Nobody said it would be easy.
:10:37. > :10:41.How could it be? The taking thousands of people in each day. If
:10:42. > :10:44.these other European countries did the right thing that would still
:10:45. > :10:46.mean hundreds of thousands of refugees and Germany should still
:10:47. > :10:50.have the same problem. It is just that we would have the same form of
:10:51. > :10:56.incipient problems in other countries that actually we do. This
:10:57. > :10:59.is a significant problem for all of us actually which is to persuade
:11:00. > :11:03.people in Europe, our fellow citizens in Europe, that actually
:11:04. > :11:06.this is a relatively inevitable consequence of things that have
:11:07. > :11:10.happened on our borders, the borders of Europe, over the last ten years,
:11:11. > :11:13.and we have no option but to get together and take these people
:11:14. > :11:18.together and deal with these people and the problem together. The idea,
:11:19. > :11:24.the issue, it is one of call responsibility, but Merkel will
:11:25. > :11:27.still get it in the neck and government clinic in other parts of
:11:28. > :11:29.Europe will get it in the neck because it is the huge and rapid,
:11:30. > :11:32.and in some ways catastrophic change for people without that much
:11:33. > :11:37.warning. We should have seen it coming, we should have warned
:11:38. > :11:39.people, they should have been agencies, multi-gov-mac agencies
:11:40. > :11:50.preparing for this long time ago, but we closed our eyes to it. --
:11:51. > :11:54.multi-government. Libya is another country affected by a similar kind
:11:55. > :11:58.of problem and didn't have the Obama administration say, or someone from
:11:59. > :12:02.the demonstration said, the feared instability in Europe as a result of
:12:03. > :12:08.this? Yes, that came from fairly high up, I don't remember which
:12:09. > :12:13.agency. I don't believe it is seen by the Security intelligence
:12:14. > :12:17.apparatus in Europe as a collective threat to national security or a
:12:18. > :12:21.back door for terrorists to get in and attack in Europe or these
:12:22. > :12:25.governments being undermined, but clearly it is a huge change that
:12:26. > :12:29.will take years to absorb and I think it is interesting that Merkel,
:12:30. > :12:33.who I think of as a very controlled and careful politician, seems to
:12:34. > :12:37.have spoken sort of off-the-cuff, from her heart, and is now being
:12:38. > :12:46.made to pay for it. A German friend of mine said when she effectively
:12:47. > :12:50.said this is the change in policy and how we will do it, he said to
:12:51. > :12:52.me, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, this will bounce
:12:53. > :12:54.back. As you suggested, it was predictable right from the start,
:12:55. > :13:01.and how significant is the backlash from the far right, Pegida and some
:13:02. > :13:05.of those people? This is difficult to predict because they are more and
:13:06. > :13:09.more -- there are more and more public demonstrations and protests
:13:10. > :13:13.limit on the street with Pegida, and another right wing party which is
:13:14. > :13:17.getting more and more votes. Fortunately, in the past in Germany
:13:18. > :13:20.we have always seen these kind of right-wing extremist parties, they
:13:21. > :13:24.deconstructed themselves, because they always had elements in there,
:13:25. > :13:28.corruption, people going to jail, they were not really parties that
:13:29. > :13:33.somehow could really make it into power, and at the same time the CSU,
:13:34. > :13:40.the Bavarian branch, it is a blessing because whilst they are
:13:41. > :13:48.very conservative, not right wing or anything, but they have taken more
:13:49. > :13:53.of the, say, conservative, yes, that side of the population. They soak
:13:54. > :13:58.them up so that is why I am also saying it is still a stable
:13:59. > :14:03.situation. Also the Bavarian branch of the CSU cannot have any interest
:14:04. > :14:07.in pulling out of the government. Crisis meetings took place this
:14:08. > :14:12.weekend and the Bavarian prime minister said on Sunday, I want a
:14:13. > :14:18.solution for this. But he will not pull out. If he does that, he is
:14:19. > :14:25.gone. Right it down on a piece of paper, and obviously broadcast it,
:14:26. > :14:31.the old Obama thing, if you have better ideas, let me have them. What
:14:32. > :14:34.David is saying about the failure to confront this situation, Europe, I
:14:35. > :14:38.don't believe it has ever looked weaker since this collective project
:14:39. > :14:42.and the move to greater union. The response has been so dismal and
:14:43. > :14:46.disparate that it is hard to see them putting a brave face on it and
:14:47. > :14:50.going forward. You think that changes politics in this country? As
:14:51. > :14:56.we prepare for the referendum? I don't think it does. Paradoxically,
:14:57. > :15:00.what people have in effect been saying is that we want more Europe,
:15:01. > :15:06.actually, that is the consequence, the logic. It working Europe? Yes,
:15:07. > :15:09.we are seeing that Europe has not worked together properly and the
:15:10. > :15:12.alternative is Europe working together properly, not Europe not
:15:13. > :15:19.working together at all. Consequently it is an argument for
:15:20. > :15:24.increased European cooperation and action. In this country I always
:15:25. > :15:28.felt by and large it would come down to a calculation as to whether or
:15:29. > :15:31.not the British would regard themselves as likely being better or
:15:32. > :15:35.worse off as being involved in the EU and it is perfectly true those
:15:36. > :15:38.who vote for the EU would be rash simply to base their appeal on that
:15:39. > :15:43.calculation. I think they should speak about the other things
:15:44. > :15:50.Europeans necessarily can and should do and so on, but in the end I have
:15:51. > :15:52.always thought that in a way a bit like the Scottish referendum but
:15:53. > :15:56.with less intensity that that is what it will come down to. It is
:15:57. > :16:00.probably worth noting that when talking about a political response,
:16:01. > :16:05.and actually there has been a completely different response on the
:16:06. > :16:06.ground, which is that, yes, there ground, which is that, yes, there
:16:07. > :16:08.have been far right provocations in Germany, but there have also been
:16:09. > :16:12.thousands of people volunteering to help refugees, as there has been in
:16:13. > :16:19.the UK and in France and I think perhaps there is a potential here
:16:20. > :16:21.for what we are seeing emerging, people wanting to define Europe in a
:16:22. > :16:25.different way, which is not anti-immigration, which is
:16:26. > :16:28.pro-immigration. The popular response to immigration has been
:16:29. > :16:34.quite out of kilter with the government response which has been,
:16:35. > :16:37.you know, borders, forces, patrols. The response then has to be, of
:16:38. > :16:41.course, how do the authorities on the ground deal with it? You are
:16:42. > :16:46.already seeing many places in Germany where the authorities cannot
:16:47. > :16:50.deal. But not just in Germany. It is pass the parcel with human parcels
:16:51. > :16:55.all across the Balkans as well. Can we speak about Turkey and the
:16:56. > :17:00.traditional action? Turkey, in this arc of instability, they were the
:17:01. > :17:01.stable bit. Stability has been threatened there in recent weeks and
:17:02. > :17:07.it is not so stable now. It is not it is not so stable now. It is not
:17:08. > :17:10.and looking at the polls, the elections are tomorrow and it will
:17:11. > :17:21.probably be the same outcome as it was in, when was it, June? But it is
:17:22. > :17:27.a different situation now for the Erdogan's party of course, for the
:17:28. > :17:31.horrendous texts you have seen on the Syrian border -- horrendous
:17:32. > :17:39.attacks. And the ones in Ankara in October with more than 100 people
:17:40. > :17:44.dying. The Kurdish activists... Yes, the Kurdish activists and the
:17:45. > :17:49.suicide attempt by Isil or Isis extremists. Now it is really evident
:17:50. > :17:53.for the party in government, they have to know go against Isil, which
:17:54. > :17:59.they were very reluctant to do until now. They were far more act of going
:18:00. > :18:02.Turkey has been, you know, very Turkey has been, you know, very
:18:03. > :18:09.judiciously is about this for some time. It has made very clear it had
:18:10. > :18:14.an agenda when it came to Syria and Iraq. It certainly was not doing as
:18:15. > :18:20.much as it could be, in terms of countering the effective -- effect
:18:21. > :18:22.of Islamic State. I would not say it was actively supporting but it
:18:23. > :18:27.certainly was not deterring and that has been a problem for some time. So
:18:28. > :18:32.I think, you know, the European relationship with Turkey has been,
:18:33. > :18:36.you know, a little bit too much, we need them for this, we will get them
:18:37. > :18:40.that, and that is certainly the case for the way Turkey was able to use
:18:41. > :18:44.attacking Islamic State as a pretext for actually attacking its Kurdish
:18:45. > :18:48.population and opening up a rift there that could have been
:18:49. > :18:53.completely avoided, which has no of course created part of the chaos we
:18:54. > :18:58.are seeing today -- now. The big European idea for dealing with the
:18:59. > :19:02.crisis is, give Turkey some money, dangling the carrot of European
:19:03. > :19:06.membership again. Speaking about long-term failings of policy, I
:19:07. > :19:11.think the more enlightened people in Europe always wanted to try to draw
:19:12. > :19:17.Turkey towards the EU. Not the French government, union? The German
:19:18. > :19:21.government? Not those people who essentially said there is a Europe
:19:22. > :19:25.and it is essentially Christian and there are Muslims over there who are
:19:26. > :19:30.not essentially Christian, and so on. What happened is that there was
:19:31. > :19:35.a time when the Kurdish party was looking more enlightened than it has
:19:36. > :19:39.become under Erdogan -- the governing party. You could argue the
:19:40. > :19:46.disappointment of their negotiations with the EU were partly responsible.
:19:47. > :19:51.I, too,... There is a relationship there, though. There is and that has
:19:52. > :19:54.worked trying governments end of go that have as a result become more
:19:55. > :19:58.liberal but we could also look at Hungary and say this is not always a
:19:59. > :20:02.one-way street and so on. There was that argument, so you are absolutely
:20:03. > :20:06.right. Turkey, essentially... If you could imagine the consequence of
:20:07. > :20:11.implosion in Turkey. It is so catastrophic for the rest of us and
:20:12. > :20:15.so we have an incredible interest in stability in Turkey and Turkey using
:20:16. > :20:19.its role in the rest of the Middle East as a place that can kind of
:20:20. > :20:26.dampened things down and create circumstances... Turkey does not see
:20:27. > :20:31.itself, its role, as necessarily a dampening down one. It has its own
:20:32. > :20:35.geopolitical, and Erdogan has his own geopolitical ambitions and so
:20:36. > :20:41.on. That brings us back to... Sorry, go on. It is sold dramatic. This
:20:42. > :20:46.week, Erdogan can go to the newspapers and take them over -- so
:20:47. > :20:50.dramatic. Then punish the TV stations, hailing his party and the
:20:51. > :20:54.government and what they are doing. Europe can't say anything because
:20:55. > :20:59.they have become hostage to cooperation with Turkey. We touched
:21:00. > :21:03.on this earlier. Very much the Nato ally, except the people doing the
:21:04. > :21:07.fighting on the ground tends to be Kurdish, which tends to be the
:21:08. > :21:12.perceived enemy of the Turkish administration. You know, how Obama
:21:13. > :21:18.deals with this is almost impossible to figure out, isn't it? Yes. None
:21:19. > :21:22.of this works and what the Americans wanted, quid pro quo, was access to
:21:23. > :21:26.the air base in Turkey that let them fly over Syria much more easily. In
:21:27. > :21:30.exchange for that, they were willing to look the other way at certain
:21:31. > :21:36.Turkish policies. My point is none of these pieces fit together and it
:21:37. > :21:42.is just impossible to see how some genius in Washington or some super
:21:43. > :21:47.unbelievable intelligence people can fix any of this. All of these trends
:21:48. > :21:53.contradict each other and go against US interests. Where does Chilcott
:21:54. > :22:04.fit into this? It doesn't. Of course it does! People want to look at...
:22:05. > :22:09.Chilcott, the war in Iraq, this fits in, doesn't it? It is a commission.
:22:10. > :22:12.It is not the war in Iraq. But it is the reason behind the war in Iraq
:22:13. > :22:18.and some people think this was the basic... Lets get this absolutely
:22:19. > :22:22.straight. Everybody speaking about Chilcott seems to have a different
:22:23. > :22:26.view of what it actually is. Some people see it as a kind of court
:22:27. > :22:30.room in which Tony Blair will be tried. Some people see it as a very
:22:31. > :22:34.long-term exercise in which you will try to discover the long-term
:22:35. > :22:37.lessons of intervening in Iraq, and I could argue, and would argue, that
:22:38. > :22:41.actually it would be just as relevant now to hold a Chilcott
:22:42. > :22:46.commission of the failures of policy in Syria which have had far more
:22:47. > :22:51.devastating consequences. Or in Libya. Syria is a much bigger
:22:52. > :22:56.one... But it is connected to what happened in Iraq, isn't it? Iraq is
:22:57. > :23:02.where it all began and you cannot not draw a line between what
:23:03. > :23:04.happened in Iraq in the creation of -- and the creation of Islamic
:23:05. > :23:08.State. That is something even security officials are now admitting
:23:09. > :23:15.two. By 2011, the operation was dead, dead particularly after the
:23:16. > :23:19.Iraqi government had gone to a period of relative in late at which
:23:20. > :23:27.it then went back on and so on. What changed that calculation -- relative
:23:28. > :23:32.enlightenment. Dissidents being suppressed by Assad, a position of
:23:33. > :23:35.civil war in which there was a complete and utter... If Iraq had
:23:36. > :23:41.not been decimated and hollowed out in the way it was following the
:23:42. > :23:45.illegal Iraq war which totally decimated that country, if that had
:23:46. > :23:50.not happened, then Islamic State would have not had a breeding and
:23:51. > :23:54.training ground that they did. When somebody says illegal Iraq war, it
:23:55. > :23:59.is not a discussion any more, it is just exchanging slogans. I am
:24:00. > :24:04.enjoying your point of view but in a broader sense what Chilcott is a
:24:05. > :24:07.testament to, it is the absolutely perfect British way of
:24:08. > :24:13.problem-solving. Create a commission and have them spend 25, 30 years
:24:14. > :24:17.studying something and... You are thinking about Bloody Sunday? I
:24:18. > :24:21.listened to Tony Blair testifying before them and learned a lot but
:24:22. > :24:24.this is so perfectly British. You will just tried this stuff for ever
:24:25. > :24:30.then publish it on a Sunday afternoon when no one is around. Is
:24:31. > :24:33.it really only British? Unlike your own dear democracy were such things
:24:34. > :24:39.would never happen in the United States! You care about the Chilcott
:24:40. > :24:45.inquiry? Will that be a story for development? Maybe when it is
:24:46. > :24:48.published. It is such a complex story. I think the more interesting
:24:49. > :24:52.story is really to look at the victims, the families of the
:24:53. > :25:00.soldiers, who have been waiting for so long. I think ?10 million of
:25:01. > :25:03.taxpayers money had been spent on it -- taxpayers' money has been spent
:25:04. > :25:07.on it and the outcome will be so meagre, I think. Everything has been
:25:08. > :25:11.turned around and twisted so many times that I think it will be very
:25:12. > :25:17.difficult for the victims. Not meagre in terms of words, perhaps? 2
:25:18. > :25:20.million words. But it matters not just for the families who lost
:25:21. > :25:25.lives, but in terms of Britain and its religion ship to the world, that
:25:26. > :25:31.matters. We will leave it there. We'll get your copy of the Chilcott
:25:32. > :25:34.report in the post -- relationship. I suspect we will.
:25:35. > :25:37.That's it for Dateline London for this week - you can comment on the
:25:38. > :25:40.We are back next week at the same time.
:25:41. > :26:10.Some parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland have started the weekend
:26:11. > :26:11.with outbreaks of rain, but in those places that is not a sign of things
:26:12. > :26:13.to come.