:00:28. > :00:31.Welcome to Dateline London. The events in Paris and their
:00:32. > :00:35.consequences raise profound questions which define our world for
:00:36. > :00:41.years to come, followed as they have been by a further attack on Mali.
:00:42. > :00:50.Can Islamic State, Daesh and similar organisations be defeated? If so,
:00:51. > :01:03.how? What are the consequences for politics in France, Germany, across
:01:04. > :01:10.Europe and for Syrian refugees. Welcome to our guests is. Let us
:01:11. > :01:15.begin with France. Where do you think French politics is now? People
:01:16. > :01:19.are united behind the president, it is clearly an attack on French
:01:20. > :01:24.culture, ordinary French people, but that presumably will last?
:01:25. > :01:30.I have spent the last week in France. What will last is a feeling
:01:31. > :01:36.of going back to the values of the French republic. I have never seen
:01:37. > :01:44.so many people, singing the Marseillaise, waving the five, Young
:01:45. > :01:49.people are joining the Army. But not in a war of religion, racist, but
:01:50. > :02:00.more to preserve what is the French republic and the value of liberty, a
:02:01. > :02:08.galley, fraternity. -- Cammack. The problem is that of course the
:02:09. > :02:14.National front will make a killing out of that. December the 6th is the
:02:15. > :02:17.favourite to take several regions. favourite to take several regions.
:02:18. > :02:23.The second thing is that France now has to think again about the model
:02:24. > :02:33.of integration and multiculturalism which is not working. Unemployment
:02:34. > :02:40.is very high where the shooting took place. They have to rethink their
:02:41. > :02:46.foreign policy, how far to go with the bombing, the coalition, the
:02:47. > :02:57.problem of Schengen, free circulation. France has two protect
:02:58. > :03:03.the external frontier much better. It could be the end of Schengen. You
:03:04. > :03:07.have been in Brussels. There is this state of emergency, the metro was
:03:08. > :03:11.closed. How do you see things they are and that area in particular,
:03:12. > :03:22.where the roots of this particular incident in Paris came from? I went
:03:23. > :03:26.to see the Moroccan community, the Muslim community there, to see what
:03:27. > :03:29.they think. Most of them, the greater majority are in shock. They
:03:30. > :03:36.did not expect these kind of attacks to take place. The majority,
:03:37. > :03:40.especially the first generation, they believe, this country gave us
:03:41. > :03:45.everything and it does not deserve to be repaid the way that they
:03:46. > :03:47.weren't France. But at the same time, when you talk to
:03:48. > :03:55.third-generation, younger people, in the Muslim community, they say, it
:03:56. > :04:02.is bad, but... Hair using this word, but, all the time. If we want to
:04:03. > :04:08.tackle this problem, we have to look at this but. We have to listen to
:04:09. > :04:13.them. Why is this coming up all the time? This is crucial. They want
:04:14. > :04:20.education, jobs, to be equal. They feel that they do not have the
:04:21. > :04:26.opportunities? Honestly, no. They are losing their identity. They were
:04:27. > :04:31.born in Britain, France, they love this country, but at the same time
:04:32. > :04:40.they love this country, but at the same their parents or grandparents.
:04:41. > :04:44.They do not fit in either place. They are completely disillusioned.
:04:45. > :04:55.They do not know where to belong to. They are an easy hunt to the radical
:04:56. > :05:12.Islamic organisations. They are monitoring the masks, -- mosques
:05:13. > :05:20.pitting surveillance in. People do not go to the mosque... Because they
:05:21. > :05:23.look at things online? They go to Facebook, Twitter, and they are
:05:24. > :05:28.vulnerable because of their confusion of identity. They are easy
:05:29. > :05:35.hunt for those people to be radicalised. It is very important.
:05:36. > :05:38.That is quite a scary prospect, people who aren't associated from
:05:39. > :05:44.all basic things about the state that they are in, the state their
:05:45. > :05:51.grandparents came from, and connect up in this electronic jihad, as
:05:52. > :05:54.people have called it. It is all was difficult to deal with. Quite a lot
:05:55. > :06:01.of people in all of these attacks are not actually unemployed. Some of
:06:02. > :06:07.those involved in the British attacks on our underground and
:06:08. > :06:11.buses, some of them had jobs, families, so it is quite a profound
:06:12. > :06:15.cultural thing. But it seems to me that what we have to keep on about
:06:16. > :06:20.is the utter insanity of this belief. It is one of the maddest
:06:21. > :06:26.cults there has ever been. It is a death cult loosely based on
:06:27. > :06:31.religion, but based on an insane idea that you will go to heaven and
:06:32. > :06:35.be a marketer if you kill a lot of people. It is as directed against
:06:36. > :06:40.other Muslim is, people not of their cult, as it is against Westerners.
:06:41. > :06:44.The idea that they will conquer the entire world and will not be happy
:06:45. > :06:51.until they do, that there will be a caliphate that conquers everything,
:06:52. > :06:55.is such a crazy idea. It is crazier than any other cult we have had to
:06:56. > :06:57.talk about it more but also we need talk about it more but also we need
:06:58. > :07:05.to market more. I think we could do with mockery and sheer exposure of
:07:06. > :07:15.the insanity of it. Make them feel that it is crazy. You have to look
:07:16. > :07:18.at the recruitment methods. Messages received through Facebook and
:07:19. > :07:26.Twitter, they live in an immoral world, the West is decadent and
:07:27. > :07:32.depraved. But they are quite happy to use Twitter and iPhones... And
:07:33. > :07:41.they are happy to use rape and abominable behaviour.
:07:42. > :07:44.Third-generation is the problem. The 15th century ideology and the 21st
:07:45. > :07:47.century technology. Can they not see that one of the reasons they can go
:07:48. > :07:52.on Twitter is because of all the freedoms that they are trying to
:07:53. > :07:58.destroy? How do you deal with that? We have to remember, those people
:07:59. > :08:05.are the minority of the minority. They are small groups. They are not
:08:06. > :08:12.a large group. Secondly, these people are vulnerable, the girl who
:08:13. > :08:19.blew herself up. If you look at her, she was living a very openly of
:08:20. > :08:28.life. She went to pubs and nightclubs. Her brother said she had
:08:29. > :08:35.never read the Koran. Some people had been in prison with
:08:36. > :08:45.copies of Islam for Dummies in their pockets. These groups are confused.
:08:46. > :08:49.Someone can come to them. You are sending a lot, if you want to
:08:50. > :08:55.repent, you have to go to Islam. If you want to remove all of your sins
:08:56. > :09:07.completely, you have to join us. To what extent would you put Saudi
:09:08. > :09:12.Arabia as one of the causes. We have tolerated it, sucked up to them,
:09:13. > :09:17.sold them our weapons, while they have spread a pernicious faith that
:09:18. > :09:21.has done so much damage. You think about the subjugation of women and
:09:22. > :09:24.the attitudes towards women, but we have been it happy to deal with that
:09:25. > :09:29.for decades. This is the problem of the West. When the Middle East was
:09:30. > :09:39.turning to moderation, to secularism, the West used the
:09:40. > :09:51.support of Saudi Arabia. Daybreak the West was a lot of arms deals and
:09:52. > :09:57.investment. Braved the West. The West helped them. While the West was
:09:58. > :10:06.fighting communism, Saudi Arabia managed to spread their politics of
:10:07. > :10:11.the Middle East. Previously there was not a single woman wearing a
:10:12. > :10:16.hijab. Now if you go to an American university, you had not find a
:10:17. > :10:21.single woman without a hijab. This is the problem. People are talking
:10:22. > :10:32.about it. This Islamic State ideology is based on that,
:10:33. > :10:38.18th-century. I think there is another problem. There is no role
:10:39. > :10:46.model. What surprised me most, being in Paris, all of the pundits, all of
:10:47. > :10:54.the specialists and academics, my own former newspaper, not one
:10:55. > :11:03.Muslim. That means that the whole murder scene that happened, that has
:11:04. > :11:06.created this carnage, there was never an example of someone
:11:07. > :11:13.integrating themselves, an example to follow. 500 journalists at my
:11:14. > :11:17.newspaper, not one Muslim. I heard a French Muslim singer on the radio
:11:18. > :11:24.last week saying, I love France, France does not love me. That
:11:25. > :11:29.summarises it. Yet, it is more integrated than some people say. The
:11:30. > :11:34.result of intermarriage. Although there are these severe problems,
:11:35. > :11:40.nevertheless, within France there is integration. The power structure is
:11:41. > :11:45.still completely closed to his lungs.
:11:46. > :11:49.Can we look at some specific areas? How much trouble as Angela Merkel
:11:50. > :11:55.and over immigration? This is the discovery that Syrian passports may
:11:56. > :12:01.have been falsified, we do not know the full story, but she is in
:12:02. > :12:07.serious political difficulty. She will be, because of this constant
:12:08. > :12:13.stream arriving from Syria, heading towards Europe and Germany, it is
:12:14. > :12:15.hard to cope with. What is reassuring us that this problem that
:12:16. > :12:23.Germany has is now reaching the level of everyone else's concern in
:12:24. > :12:26.Europe. Germany becomes destabilised, a rock of stability in
:12:27. > :12:37.the last decade, that is bad for all was. We need policies to help Angela
:12:38. > :12:41.Merkel. Should we pay Turkey more to oppose them? There is a new plan to
:12:42. > :12:49.keep a lot of people arriving in Europe out of our borders, keep them
:12:50. > :12:51.in Turkey for a while so that the ones that have arrived can settle
:12:52. > :12:54.and we can develop the experiences of what to do with them. After tame,
:12:55. > :13:00.we can then lease the ones that we have kept in Turkey and let them
:13:01. > :13:07.come piecemeal, not all at once. Do you think showing in is finished?
:13:08. > :13:11.Yes. There are temporary border closures, but Italy and Greece are
:13:12. > :13:15.very porous, Germany has a problem because of that, and there is a
:13:16. > :13:20.great appetite to restore borders and see that showing in was a
:13:21. > :13:24.mistake. My question is, to what extent was it a mistake? The outer
:13:25. > :13:30.borders will have to be policed more strongly. They will be. But what
:13:31. > :13:36.about borders within Europe? We have free movement, once you are admitted
:13:37. > :13:42.to the Schengen area. They can move freely and reinvent themselves. The
:13:43. > :13:46.outside borders are not policed. How can you possibly policed the whole
:13:47. > :13:50.of Greece and Italy? We have given them so little help during this
:13:51. > :13:53.crisis. The idea that they will suddenly become firm borders, they
:13:54. > :14:00.will not. That is why Schengen will not work. I think showing in as
:14:01. > :14:05.pivotal for the future of Europe. If we get rid of that, Europe will not
:14:06. > :14:09.continue. At the end of the day, if you'd be different year between
:14:10. > :14:13.Belgium and France, with the guy escaping from France, going to
:14:14. > :14:24.Belgium, being checked by the French police at the temporary frontier,
:14:25. > :14:28.showing in his to stay. It has to be reinforced and police controlled.
:14:29. > :14:34.But we cannot give terrorism that gift to get rid of Schengen. Two
:14:35. > :14:39.points. Those people are from within Europe. They are not coming from
:14:40. > :14:44.outside. Schengen has nothing to do with this. That is extremely
:14:45. > :14:50.important. Secondly, talking about Germany, I have been to Germany ten
:14:51. > :14:57.times and I have spoken to the community there, you have more than
:14:58. > :15:02.2.5 million Turks living in Turkey and more than 1.5 million Arabs
:15:03. > :15:07.living there. They are happy and integrated in one way or another.
:15:08. > :15:15.Their business is extremely good. We should look at it from the inside
:15:16. > :15:20.not the outside. In the Middle East the right take borders but it does
:15:21. > :15:25.not prevent Islamic State from spreading. Because of the Internet,
:15:26. > :15:30.as you said. Exactly. The border matter should be put aside and we
:15:31. > :15:35.should not look for scapegoats you right there. But you are describing
:15:36. > :15:41.the Germany that was. We were just beginning to understand that Germany
:15:42. > :15:45.is an immigrant country. But the sudden arrival of 1 million moreover
:15:46. > :15:53.night really taxes the ability of the population, despite a
:15:54. > :16:02.familiarity with Turkish and Arab immigrants. Can we afford to absorb
:16:03. > :16:08.any more? Angela Merkel's fortunes are sinking rapidly. What has kept
:16:09. > :16:14.so far in places that there is no visible alternative to her, no other
:16:15. > :16:20.man or woman he could take over. Win with the Syrian immigrants, it is a
:16:21. > :16:30.civil society. Most of them are secular. They are also middle-class
:16:31. > :16:38.and they are very civilised people. Highly professional. Other parts of
:16:39. > :16:42.the Middle East, I perhaps agree. But when it comes to Syria and the
:16:43. > :16:48.Syrian immigrants, they are gift to Europe. Secondly, they waited five
:16:49. > :16:56.years... Why did they not come four years ago? There is a unanimity to
:16:57. > :17:03.help the Syrians. That is not the question. But with the Syrians,
:17:04. > :17:08.Iraqis, Afghans, Africans, there is the whole poverty of the world.
:17:09. > :17:15.Europe has a moral duty to the Syrians just as to the Iraqis, the
:17:16. > :17:18.Afghans, but not the world. Domestic politics, the UN has given cover to
:17:19. > :17:21.David Cameron to go back to Parliament, they have said all
:17:22. > :17:25.necessary measures should be contemplated if dealing with this.
:17:26. > :17:32.That perhaps suggest is to David Cameron that he might win the vote
:17:33. > :17:35.in the Commons on bombing IS targets in the Commons on bombing IS targets
:17:36. > :17:39.in Syria. Public opinion in this country was very strongly against
:17:40. > :17:43.and is now making more in favour, which is interesting. Whether that
:17:44. > :17:48.is just a spasm after Paris, I do not know. What would we be adding? A
:17:49. > :17:53.few more bombs. We would not be adding what is really needed, boots
:17:54. > :17:56.on the ground. Which is what everybody says. You will not conquer
:17:57. > :18:03.and less you have somebody's boots on the ground. It will not be us,
:18:04. > :18:08.that is for sure. One good reason for going solidarity with the French
:18:09. > :18:13.and the Americans, simply a gesture. And the Russians. Maybe even with
:18:14. > :18:17.President Putin, the terrible. Although you look at the reason why
:18:18. > :18:21.so many Syrians are leaving and it is not because of Isis, it is
:18:22. > :18:27.because of the barrel bombs coming from President Assad. The Russian
:18:28. > :18:31.ingredients simply complicates it all. I think there will be a lot of
:18:32. > :18:36.alarm about what we are doing it for, how we get out, what the
:18:37. > :18:43.purposes. Maybe in the end this year wish of solidarity with the French
:18:44. > :18:50.will be enough to do -- to make us do it. Britain cannot be seen to be
:18:51. > :18:58.the one lagging behind to do something. There are eight
:18:59. > :19:06.tornadoes. They will not be difficult to withdraw. But for
:19:07. > :19:11.Britain, which 12 years ago was at the forefront in Iraq, without the
:19:12. > :19:17.slightest day in Tony Blair's mind, and... You cannot withdraw until the
:19:18. > :19:20.job is done. Physically you can stop bombing but there has to be a reason
:19:21. > :19:25.to stop bombing. We will be in the to stop bombing. We will be in the
:19:26. > :19:28.bombing for ever and tell the problem is. But if you have the
:19:29. > :19:30.community behind you, does that lend community behind you, does that lend
:19:31. > :19:39.extra weight? Solidarity with France? Yes, France needs solidarity
:19:40. > :19:43.with the bombing campaign. People in France are happy and grateful for
:19:44. > :19:48.this incredible solidarity all over the world, with buildings being the
:19:49. > :19:54.national colour. But you need solidarity, because France cannot
:19:55. > :19:59.bomb on its own. David Cameron is welcome, and the other Europeans
:20:00. > :20:13.should show solidarity in also sharing information. The French must
:20:14. > :20:21.accept that it is a big step. It is important for now won that it is
:20:22. > :20:35.Europe as a whole -- it is important that Europe as a whole is coming
:20:36. > :20:39.together. There are 7000 soldiers against Isis for the last year and
:20:40. > :20:46.two months. This is the problem. This is not a new thing. 7000
:20:47. > :20:50.soldiers, it did nothing, or very little. This is the problem. You
:20:51. > :20:55.need boots on the ground, but who should send this boots on the
:20:56. > :21:01.ground? Any bring countries, Turkish. Kurdish forces are doing
:21:02. > :21:10.the fighting, Turkey is worried the... They are the only ones who
:21:11. > :21:21.are doing it. You have to have the Kurds or Islamic State, you have to
:21:22. > :21:26.decide. They are now launching a war in Yemen, why have the British and
:21:27. > :21:33.French said, this is not the time? This is the problem. They must
:21:34. > :21:45.listen. If you want to fight Islamic State, you have to be truthful. They
:21:46. > :21:49.buy weapons from France, the United Arab Emirates by weapons from
:21:50. > :21:57.Russia, people are coming to buy weapons from the UK. We will invest
:21:58. > :22:01.in your country if you listen to us. They must face the reality and sit
:22:02. > :22:11.together. Why do the Gulf states take no immigrants? It is a big
:22:12. > :22:18.problem that we have. This is the problem about what we would we
:22:19. > :22:19.Syria, with all these problems with Syria, with all these problems with
:22:20. > :22:25.extremely unreliable and disreputable allies amongst them,
:22:26. > :22:28.with other countries, Saudi Arabia, behaving disgracefully and refusing
:22:29. > :22:32.to take any immigrants, with the Turks utterly conflicted because
:22:33. > :22:36.they are busy bombing only people who are actually fighting Isis, what
:22:37. > :22:43.are we doing other than saying, me too? Is that a good enough reason to
:22:44. > :22:49.go to war? It makes me very and easy because it is so unclear what the
:22:50. > :22:51.objectives are. It is very much a question of all of the country is
:22:52. > :22:57.getting together and actually being honest. The diplomatic efforts are
:22:58. > :23:05.continuing, but you have to live in this moment. Just to be there? For
:23:06. > :23:07.no particular military objective? It is additional firepower. The
:23:08. > :23:15.ineffectiveness has been proven beyond doubt. This leads me to the
:23:16. > :23:22.Schengen area. While this bombing is going on, individual perpetrators
:23:23. > :23:27.come through the Borders. I have to disagree with you about showing in.
:23:28. > :23:35.It is essential that we find a way to police the outside borders.
:23:36. > :23:38.Absolutely. Outside borders, for me you can create a complete
:23:39. > :23:48.sanctuary. But you have to keep Schengen. What if you cannot protect
:23:49. > :23:53.the outside borders? Then you take Greece and Italy out of Schengen.
:23:54. > :23:59.You put it higher up. There is no need to put a frontier between
:24:00. > :24:03.Holland, Belgium... Why is showing in so important? It is very nice not
:24:04. > :24:07.to have to show your passport, but it is quite trivial. We go in and
:24:08. > :24:16.out of Europe and it is no big deal that we have to have our passport
:24:17. > :24:19.looked at? I believe with you, in practice it should not make a
:24:20. > :24:25.difference. It is the European ideal, which we should be proud of,
:24:26. > :24:30.and showing in as part of it. In the short-term, medium-term,
:24:31. > :24:38.resident Assad is safe in Syria? Absolutely safe. The knighted States
:24:39. > :24:46.is closer now to that Soviet point of view, the Russian point of view.
:24:47. > :24:51.If you want to fight Isis or Islamic State you need boots on the ground.
:24:52. > :24:54.The only army which is qualified to fight Islamic State is the Syrian
:24:55. > :25:06.Army. Now they have the experience of gorilla war. He had the
:25:07. > :25:16.experience of classical army. -- guerilla war. They do not want to do
:25:17. > :25:27.it. Who is qualified? Is it the Syrian Army? We have not mentioned
:25:28. > :25:35.Iran. With the dictator the area is probably safer than without him. The
:25:36. > :25:43.priority of the whole world, the UN Security Council issued a resolution
:25:44. > :25:48.and to clear the Warren Isis. You need stages. The priority is to
:25:49. > :25:53.fight Islamic State. Many people just six months ago, the Spanish
:25:54. > :26:05.Foreign Minister, Angela Merkel, said we should talk to President
:26:06. > :26:09.Assad. But the Turkish, the Saudi Arabians, they said, if you talk to
:26:10. > :26:13.him then we are quitting. They listened to them. There must be real
:26:14. > :26:18.understanding. We will have to leave it there. That
:26:19. > :26:24.is all the Bromham Dateline London this week. We're back at the same
:26:25. > :26:26.time next week. You can comment on Twitter. Thank you for watching and
:26:27. > :26:34.goodbye.